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Post by daksonj on May 27, 2024 17:17:30 GMT -6
… imagine how we feel 13 years later when we’ve basically seen the same show a million times… after watching Bentonville okay so did the kids even have to learn drill or… “just do the same as last year”. Wrong Wes. My bad, you’re so right, I confused Mason and Bentonville
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Post by croden on May 27, 2024 17:19:34 GMT -6
Everyone has their own view of what marching band SHOULD be, I just especially enjoy designs that ask what marching band COULD be ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
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Post by paddy on May 27, 2024 19:01:59 GMT -6
I’m not going to try and pick out bits and pieces to quote from the last few posts but rather just make some statements…
1. I will disagree with young judges being more open to stuff. I find them to more strident in their views, more systemic/formulaic in their scoring, and less open to the idea that while they may not like something they see it can still be well executed and score well. If they don’t like it or fail to understand it, they tune out and give a half assed attempt at critique and scoring. The ones I have run into don’t have the background knowledge and breadth of experience at times.
2. While I think Wes C is vastly overpaid for what he does, I admit that he does it well and consistently.
3. I have had the pleasure of being a fly on the wall in a few situations with Wes P and he is an incredibly talented and thoughtful designer, clinician and judge. He is also a top notch person which may be more important than anything else I said.
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Post by croden on May 27, 2024 19:21:40 GMT -6
I’m not going to try and pick out bits and pieces to quote from the last few posts but rather just make some statements… 1. I will disagree with young judges being more open to stuff. I find them to more strident in their views, more systemic/formulaic in their scoring, and less open to the idea that while they may not like something they see it can still be well executed and score well. If they don’t like it or fail to understand it, they tune out and give a half assed attempt at critique and scoring. The ones I have run into don’t have the background knowledge and breadth of experience at times. 2. While I think Wes C is vastly overpaid for what he does, I admit that he does it well and consistently. 3. I have had the pleasure of being a fly on the wall in a few situations with Wes P and he is an incredibly talented and thoughtful designer, clinician and judge. He is also a top notch person which may be more important than anything else I said. I can’t agree with your statement on younger judges in my experience but I won’t discount yours. Just goes to show how subjective this art form is. I agree to daksonj and you about consistency, but I admit that THAT is the formulaic part of this activity that, in my opinion, hinders development of the programs he works with.
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Post by yayband914 on May 27, 2024 19:42:07 GMT -6
I’m not going to try and pick out bits and pieces to quote from the last few posts but rather just make some statements… 1. I will disagree with young judges being more open to stuff. I find them to more strident in their views, more systemic/formulaic in their scoring, and less open to the idea that while they may not like something they see it can still be well executed and score well. If they don’t like it or fail to understand it, they tune out and give a half assed attempt at critique and scoring. The ones I have run into don’t have the background knowledge and breadth of experience at times. 2. While I think Wes C is vastly overpaid for what he does, I admit that he does it well and consistently. 3. I have had the pleasure of being a fly on the wall in a few situations with Wes P and he is an incredibly talented and thoughtful designer, clinician and judge. He is also a top notch person which may be more important than anything else I said. Seconded on your third point. Wes P is a gem of a person. Intelligent, kind, talented, generous, and a hell of a designer to boot!
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Post by hewhowaits on May 28, 2024 4:42:05 GMT -6
a top notch person which may be more important than anything else I said. THIS is the aspect of our favorite activity that we all need to celebrate and publicize. There are so many great people working with our young adults who are not properly recognized for the wonderful influence they bring to those students. Are there a few bad apples? Of course there are, just like in any aspect of life. We must always strive to support those who are positive examples.
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Post by philodemus on May 28, 2024 6:37:17 GMT -6
Lots to think about on this thread!
My eyebrows really went up to hear someone assert that Wes Cartwright's designs are outdated or old-school compared to those doing more 'advanced' show designs. This... is not the case. I agree completely that he has hit upon a formula and that, yes, for those of us who watch a lot of this stuff it can be a bit repetitive. Further, there are aspects of his formula I don't personally care for. But all that said, the formula itself is a very skillful and sophisticated method of achieving effect with a large marching ensemble without placing huge amounts of demand on individual students. The kind of large scale, sleight of hand that he uses to make you look where he wants and not where he doesn't is really difficult.
Of course, a lot of that isn't strictly speaking Wes Cartwright, it's Leon May, but I think the point still stands.
The other thread of this conversation I found interesting was the 'old judges vs. new judges' sidebar. There's obviously a huge amount of individual variance in each age bracket, but I would say that old judges and young judges are just as likely to have biases... the key difference being which biases they are likely to have. Older judges, like older humans generally, bring a lot of preconceptions and may resist new ideas. Old paradigms are hard to shake. Young judges, on the other hand, have a tendency to feel 'I am young and very, very hip. I know what cool new shows are supposed to look like and I will award effect points based entirely on how much the design conforms to this new paradigm.'
Or to put it another way, both old and young judges can become convinced that they know the One Right Way. The good ones overcome that and are open to the million different ways there are to be effective.
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Post by rickyrosay on May 28, 2024 9:56:47 GMT -6
Wow.. so if it was repetitive and contentious back then, when WC and friends were still “cutting edge”… imagine how we feel 13 years later when we’ve basically seen the same show a million times… after watching Brownsburg and Bentonville and Pearland I was really just like… okay so did the kids even have to learn drill or… “just do the same as last year”. And it’s even more egregious when show themes or scores are reused like talk about lazy. I’m really shocked WC shows do as well as they do competitively when the rest of the activity is leaps and bounds further. Any other group/design that does something even remotely similar to the year before gets TANKED. Let alone repeating trends and patterns for over a decade This is certainly an interesting point. I won’t disagree that some Cartwright shows feel uninspired- but there has to be SOMETHING there for that kind of show design to continuously score well. It seems to me that in recent years, Cartwright-designed shows are best received at Grand Nats. I have never seen a Grand Nats finals live, but I can imagine that something about a Cartwright show in Lucas Oil just feels… grandiose. It’s tricky, though, because especially last year I felt that there were several more innovative groups that were particularly deserving of finals. But ultimately, BOA is still hiring judges who are, let’s face it, not the youngest or most in touch. Sometimes, Cartwright shows are nothing but very, very pretty. And for a lot of judges, that may be enough to make them quite memorable! I’d be interested to see how Cartwright shows are received by a particularly young panel against more design-forward groups. For example, I was quite partial to the design of Dripping Springs’ Fugue State last year. It seemed maybe a little more convoluted than the straightforward Pipe Dream, but personally I felt that there was much more to connect with in Fugue State. Some judges who are STILL judging (going on 2+ decades, mind you) may feel differently. I think that maybe gives some insight on to how more innovative groups are frequently outscored by more traditional design. Everyone has their own view of what marching band SHOULD be, I just especially enjoy designs that ask what marching band COULD be ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I just have to say one thing. I enjoy reading thoughtful and respectful back and forth. These forums are a much healthier place than DCP. Just wanted to give claps all around to everyone for being so kind and considerate. Now back to the topic. I don't think I could agree more with the, "grandiose" Feel of a Wes Cartwright design. They really do stand out in that way. I think that's also what I appreciate about it. What can be viewed as formulaic is actually different in it's own right because people are trying to stray away from that style. I think that's what makes BOA Semi finals and the Super regional Prelims so special and really appointment viewing if you can watch them. Just watching so many different interpretations of what amounts to essentially the same thing. At the root it's all the same. March, stop, body, flutter away, impact, spinny spin, drum drum drum, loud, end, clap. Watching how so many creative minds take those things and make it fit the schools they design for, the communities they design for, the students they design for is super cool. And as.. we'll say predictable, as Wes might be. More times than not, his sets and colors give final boss energy. Whether they're in the top 3 discussion or not. As for the judge discussion, someone once told me "Those who can't do it anymore, teach and those who can't teach anymore, judge." I think that is everything right there. The people you might want to be a judge at some of these big shows like a Jarret Lipman (who is an incredible judge) or a Wes P or someone along those lines can't because they're still actively involved with groups. So what we are left with are a lot of the same names that tend to reward the same things now matter how BOA rotates they're captions.
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Post by hewhowaits on May 28, 2024 10:43:48 GMT -6
As for the judge discussion, someone once told me "Those who can't do it anymore, teach and those who can't teach anymore, judge." I think that is everything right there. The people you might want to be a judge at some of these big shows like a Jarret Lipman (who is an incredible judge) or a Wes P or someone along those lines can't because they're still actively involved with groups. So what we are left with are a lot of the same names that tend to reward the same things now matter how BOA rotates they're captions. Many judges are current directors and/or show designers. The only requirement is that they do not adjudicate at a show where any band(s) they are directly affiliated with are competing. It's great to travel to regionals around the country and interact with music educators who are judging those shows. What's always fun is to work at one event with a judge then to see that individual at another event the same year doing their "day job" of working with a band. Same great people wearing two different hats.
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Post by paddy on May 28, 2024 13:58:33 GMT -6
The other thread of this conversation I found interesting was the 'old judges vs. new judges' sidebar. There's obviously a huge amount of individual variance in each age bracket, but I would say that old judges and young judges are just as likely to have biases... the key difference being which biases they are likely to have. Older judges, like older humans generally, bring a lot of preconceptions and may resist new ideas. Old paradigms are hard to shake. Young judges, on the other hand, have a tendency to feel 'I am young and very, very hip. I know what cool new shows are supposed to look like and I will award effect points based entirely on how much the design conforms to this new paradigm.' Or to put it another way, both old and young judges can become convinced that they know the One Right Way. The good ones overcome that and are open to the million different ways there are to be effective. This is a better way of explaining my thoughts. I have found that more experienced judges (which usually means older judges) have more ability to park their biases.
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Post by paddy on May 28, 2024 14:01:21 GMT -6
As for the judge discussion, someone once told me "Those who can't do it anymore, teach and those who can't teach anymore, judge." I think that is everything right there. The people you might want to be a judge at some of these big shows like a Jarret Lipman (who is an incredible judge) or a Wes P or someone along those lines can't because they're still actively involved with groups. So what we are left with are a lot of the same names that tend to reward the same things now matter how BOA rotates they're captions. Many judges are current directors and/or show designers. The only requirement is that they do not adjudicate at a show where any band(s) they are directly affiliated with are competing. It's great to travel to regionals around the country and interact with music educators who are judging those shows. What's always fun is to work at one event with a judge then to see that individual at another event the same year doing their "day job" of working with a band. Same great people wearing two different hats. I prefer having judges that have taught or are currently teaching (at the assistant director/head director level). I have seen an uptick in judges who were performance majors with a little bit of HS marching band and maybe a season of 2 of DCI/WGI who then turned to studio teaching/private lessons/tech work without completing an education degree and not having spent time teaching at the program level. I find their insight and ability to be...lacking.
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Post by MadScientist on Jun 1, 2024 7:49:04 GMT -6
GN Finals 2021: So...many...leg capes...
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Post by marimba11 on Jun 3, 2024 10:25:20 GMT -6
Lots to think about on this thread! My eyebrows really went up to hear someone assert that Wes Cartwright's designs are outdated or old-school compared to those doing more 'advanced' show designs. This... is not the case. I agree completely that he has hit upon a formula and that, yes, for those of us who watch a lot of this stuff it can be a bit repetitive. Further, there are aspects of his formula I don't personally care for. But all that said, the formula itself is a very skillful and sophisticated method of achieving effect with a large marching ensemble without placing huge amounts of demand on individual students. The kind of large scale, sleight of hand that he uses to make you look where he wants and not where he doesn't is really difficult. Of course, a lot of that isn't strictly speaking Wes Cartwright, it's Leon May, but I think the point still stands. The other thread of this conversation I found interesting was the 'old judges vs. new judges' sidebar. There's obviously a huge amount of individual variance in each age bracket, but I would say that old judges and young judges are just as likely to have biases... the key difference being which biases they are likely to have. Older judges, like older humans generally, bring a lot of preconceptions and may resist new ideas. Old paradigms are hard to shake. Young judges, on the other hand, have a tendency to feel 'I am young and very, very hip. I know what cool new shows are supposed to look like and I will award effect points based entirely on how much the design conforms to this new paradigm.' Or to put it another way, both old and young judges can become convinced that they know the One Right Way. The good ones overcome that and are open to the million different ways there are to be effective. Yes, the WC formula is a lot like the Blue Devils formula, they just change the concept. Which I happen to like WC design's so it isn't a critique just an observation. One thing we haven't really touched upon is the success rate of bands that leave WC LLC is actually not very good once they do. LD Bell Harrison Union? But I guess you could make the opposite case for the bands that use him too long? Haltom Lafeyette, LA SFA
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Post by crunchycookie3 on Jun 3, 2024 12:47:10 GMT -6
One thing we haven't really touched upon is the success rate of bands that leave WC LLC is actually not very good once they do. LD Bell Harrison Union? I wouldn’t consider top half at BOA San Antonio unsuccessful… rather, LD Bell arguably has hit their greatest success in 10 years, only 2 of which have been without Cartwright, who sold them EXACTLY the same music books as Mason 2017 and Austin 2019 under the guise of an original show. Harrison, in my view, is also doing just fine maintaining top half success at Orlando. While the road hasn’t been entirely smooth and it has taken some adjustments, these groups certainly are fine in a post-Cartwright world. In my experience in a WC ensemble, part of the “Cartwright Formula” includes hostility toward child performers. It’s been time for this formula to be shaken up for awhile.
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Post by marimba11 on Jun 3, 2024 13:12:40 GMT -6
One thing we haven't really touched upon is the success rate of bands that leave WC LLC is actually not very good once they do. LD Bell Harrison Union? I wouldn’t consider top half at BOA San Antonio unsuccessful… rather, LD Bell arguably has hit their greatest success in 10 years, only 2 of which have been without Cartwright, who sold them EXACTLY the same music books as Mason 2017 and Austin 2019 under the guise of an original show. Harrison, in my view, is also doing just fine maintaining top half success at Orlando. While the road hasn’t been entirely smooth and it has taken some adjustments, these groups certainly are fine in a post-Cartwright world. In my experience in a WC ensemble, part of the “Cartwright Formula” includes hostility toward child performers. It’s been time for this formula to be shaken up for awhile. I don't entirely disagree! But bell had some weird years 2012-2014 w out him. Could of been because of other things. To say we have the same Harrison we had during the WC years would not be entirely true, but I think covid hurt them more than others.
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Post by ilikeguard on Jun 4, 2024 11:49:52 GMT -6
In my experience in a WC ensemble, part of the “Cartwright Formula” includes hostility toward child performers. It’s been time for this formula to be shaken up for awhile. Yup. I would honestly take the exact same design philosophy from someone kinder and I wouldn’t complain about it one bit.
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Post by cinnamonpromenade on Jun 5, 2024 15:07:00 GMT -6
But I guess you could make the opposite case for the bands that use him too long? Haltom Lafeyette, LA SFA When was Wes at Lafayette?! Please don't say 2008... that show was too inspired to be a Wes show lol
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Post by marimba11 on Jun 5, 2024 22:31:36 GMT -6
But I guess you could make the opposite case for the bands that use him too long? Haltom Lafeyette, LA SFA When was Wes at Lafayette?! Please don't say 2008... that show was too inspired to be a Wes show lol I don’t know exactly but I’d be shocked if the orchid show wasn’t his. Literally BA 2015 title
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Post by macwinlin on Jun 6, 2024 13:19:55 GMT -6
But I guess you could make the opposite case for the bands that use him too long? Haltom Lafeyette, LA SFA When was Wes at Lafayette?! Please don't say 2008... that show was too inspired to be a Wes show lol I'm pretty sure he's been working with them since the early 2000s. I'm not sure how many of those years were full coordination, though.
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Post by cinnamonpromenade on Jun 7, 2024 13:49:04 GMT -6
When was Wes at Lafayette?! Please don't say 2008... that show was too inspired to be a Wes show lol I don’t know exactly but I’d be shocked if the orchid show wasn’t his. Literally BA 2015 title OMG that's a gag... good point... I just feel like that music rep wasn't the generic Copland-Bernstein-Barber megamix that I expect from a Cartwright show! Though I guess to be fair his shows didn't experience as much convergent evolution until the early/mid-2010s... he still had room for invention before that era 😋
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Post by atlas23 on Jun 7, 2024 21:58:15 GMT -6
I believe Cartwright as of 2023 wrote for Broken Arrow, Brownsburg, Camdenton, Coweta, Dobyns-Bennett, Grand Rapids*, Haltom*, Henry Clay*, Hidalgo*, Mustang*, Pearland, Prosper, Rosemount, Siegel*, Washington (MO)* , and William Mason.
I think at one point Bentonville may have had him or currently do? I don’t think Union is a band of his anymore but I also didn’t know Lafayette was so please correct me if i’m wrong! Obviously he isn’t at Broken Arrow this upcoming season and isn’t at Stephen F. Austin anymore, they have Alan Spaeth and Mitch Rogers designing for them this year!
There’s been a lot of changes staff wise this season; directors, designers, arrangers, etc., so it should be interesting to see what this season will hold.
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Post by yayband914 on Jun 7, 2024 22:40:16 GMT -6
I believe Cartwright as of 2023 wrote for Broken Arrow, Brownsburg, Camdenton, Coweta, Dobyns-Bennett, Grand Rapids*, Haltom*, Henry Clay*, Hidalgo*, Mustang*, Pearland, Prosper, Rosemount, Siegel*, Washington (MO)* , and William Mason. I think at one point Bentonville may have had him or currently do? This has been mentioned frequently at this point, but Bentonville has been, and will likely always be, with Wes Pendergrass, not the other Wes. Also I believe Siegel was a Jordan Lalama production, though he is one of Cartwright’s frequent collaborators.
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Post by macwinlin on Jun 9, 2024 12:29:18 GMT -6
The Wes confusion strikes again. I honestly think this is more than a first name confusion thing. Several recent Bentonville shows have had some Cartwright vibes, and I believe Pendergrass considers him a professional mentor, or did at one point, so it’s understandable. Also, many designers make similar design choices simply because they like how it looks or feels.
Check out Lafayette’s 2021 Cartwright show, Summertime. At first glance it’s Bentonville 2023 with nearly identical props and yellow costuming, but everything else is different. Still close enough to confuse the two, especially to the untrained eye.
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Post by 70sguardchick on Jun 9, 2024 12:54:34 GMT -6
I believe Cartwright as of 2023 wrote for Broken Arrow, Brownsburg, Camdenton, Coweta, Dobyns-Bennett, Grand Rapids*, Haltom*, Henry Clay*, Hidalgo*, Mustang*, Pearland, Prosper, Rosemount, Siegel*, Washington (MO)* , and William Mason. I think at one point Bentonville may have had him or currently do? This has been mentioned frequently at this point, but Bentonville has been, and will likely always be, with Wes Pendergrass, not the other Wes. Also I believe Siegel was a Jordan Lalama production, though he is one of Cartwright’s frequent collaborators. Cartwright is working with Brownsburg again this year, as is Jordan Lalama. Jordan and his wife now live in the area.
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