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Post by okcmatt on Nov 18, 2024 8:17:38 GMT -6
Decided to show all the pretty noticeable differences between prelims and semis not including reps Castle: 10th to 7th (+3) Bridgeland: 18th to 8th (+10 Good God that’s a bunch) Prosper: 7th to 11th (-4) Leander: 9th to 12th (-3) Jenks: 11th to 14th (-3, R.I.P) Jenison: 15th to 26th (-11, JEEZ) Rockford: 16th to 25th (-9, CRAZY) Argyle: 20th to 23rd (-3) Lincoln-Way: 22nd to 27th (-5 ;-; Friendswood: 24th to 20th (+4) Bartlett: 25th to 18th (+7 W) Walled Lake: 26th to 29th (-3) Norwin: 27th to 22nd (+5 Good Job) Franklin: 29th to 32nd (-3) Rosemount: 30th to 21st (+9 GJ) This tells me BOA needs to tighten up their judging standards across judges. |
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Post by thewho on Nov 18, 2024 8:33:48 GMT -6
Decided to show all the pretty noticeable differences between prelims and semis not including reps Castle: 10th to 7th (+3) Bridgeland: 18th to 8th (+10 Good God that’s a bunch) Prosper: 7th to 11th (-4) Leander: 9th to 12th (-3) Jenks: 11th to 14th (-3, R.I.P) Jenison: 15th to 26th (-11, JEEZ) Rockford: 16th to 25th (-9, CRAZY) Argyle: 20th to 23rd (-3) Lincoln-Way: 22nd to 27th (-5 ;-; Friendswood: 24th to 20th (+4) Bartlett: 25th to 18th (+7 W) Walled Lake: 26th to 29th (-3) Norwin: 27th to 22nd (+5 Good Job) Franklin: 29th to 32nd (-3) Rosemount: 30th to 21st (+9 GJ) This tells me BOA needs to tighten up their judging standards across judges. You have to also consider that there are two panels and they were deeply unbalanced this year (to the point of Brownsburg, Friendswood, Rosemount, and Norwin, despite finishing top 22 was a next 8 band). There's going to be some dynamics at play here that's going to affect the placements. And to be frank, the judges job on prelims is to get the best bands in semi-finals. Placements are not the forefront of their minds beyond getting the right bands in. If you want a personal take, I'm not really quite surprised at these placements. Bridgeland was a head-scratcher, but that was not a great prelims run they had (they did tighten up on semis thankfully). Same with Friendswood, to the point I was actually concerned they would miss out. Bartlett had a crazy climb, but my general impression was that semis run went quite spectacularly well that I think they were just capped by the potential ceiling the show had (i.e. semis was the maximum potential the show could reach). Unfortunately, just about all the Michigan bands did not stand out or had bad runs in semis. Rockford did not have a strong run, Walled Lake had a good run but not as good they've been, Jenison had a very rough go at it compared to prelims. While disappointing, it's not too surprising to me. |
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Post by cth on Nov 18, 2024 8:43:35 GMT -6
Decided to show all the pretty noticeable differences between prelims and semis not including reps Castle: 10th to 7th (+3) Bridgeland: 18th to 8th (+10 Good God that’s a bunch) Prosper: 7th to 11th (-4) Leander: 9th to 12th (-3) Jenks: 11th to 14th (-3, R.I.P) Jenison: 15th to 26th (-11, JEEZ) Rockford: 16th to 25th (-9, CRAZY) Argyle: 20th to 23rd (-3) Lincoln-Way: 22nd to 27th (-5 ;-; Friendswood: 24th to 20th (+4) Bartlett: 25th to 18th (+7 W) Walled Lake: 26th to 29th (-3) Norwin: 27th to 22nd (+5 Good Job) Franklin: 29th to 32nd (-3) Rosemount: 30th to 21st (+9 GJ) I think bridgelands prelims performance was far worse than semis and finals which shows here, they clearly looked nervous in the first run with probably the new field and experience scaring the performers slightly. I also thought jenks was deserving of finals great show! |
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hdni
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Post by hdni on Nov 18, 2024 8:54:36 GMT -6
In a contest this big, the judges are being asked to find the top 11 of the bands they saw. This is more important than correctly profiling every band into their correct box/sub box. The way I understand it, they have a spreadsheet/some method of keeping track where they are assigning scores to bands for each subcaption - they are not supposed to tie bands in subcaptions OR bottom line scores and are discouraged from using half point scores (i.e. 85.5). Because of that, it would be impossible to exactly and correctly profile every band.
This creates a situation where the first half of bands are being profiled correctly, and the last half of bands (especially the bands who go on the latest) are being assigned a number in each caption that is the best combination of 1) what numbers are left, 2) what most accurate reflects the band’s profile in relation to the box’s descriptors, and 3) “should this band be IN or OUT of my top 11”? In a case of a Jenison, who performed last (just as an example), judges likely only had high numbers or low numbers left, and many went with low Box 5 numbers to ensure they made it into semi-Finals, which caused the high prelims placement. Once they were in a smaller field in Semi-Finals where more numbers were available, they could be more accurately profiled, and this changed their placement. You could apply this to several other bands in both directions.
The smaller the contest and less rounds you have to go, the more accurate this process is going to be because judges can be more worried about correctly profiling bands on the sheet and less about “well I need to make sure that this band is represented in semi-finals/finals in my caption with the numbers that I have left to assign”.
All of this to say, there is not a judging issue, and this is not an issue where the judges are not qualified or well calibrated, these are simply the dynamics created by a large and very competitive contest. Bands have to be undeniable if they want to ensure their spot into the next round - if they’re not, it’s going to be a toss up, and there were a ton of tossup bands at this contest.
I’m not saying that the Panel 1/Panel 2 rotation is a perfect system. I’m saying there are always going to be discrepancies from round to round when you’re hosting a contest this big where you’re comparing a bunch of 14-18 year olds. And at the end of the day, they’re looking for bands they want to have 2 performances, then three performances, and ultimately medalists (and I would even say judges are more likely trying to ensure FINALISTS make it to Semi-Finals while judging prelims, and MEDALISTS make it to Finals while judging Semis). Where bands lineup inside of that is all secondary (right, wrong, or indifferent).
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Post by rickyrosay on Nov 18, 2024 9:19:06 GMT -6
Few thoughts on the weekend:
1. Good Lord do I love watching good band!
2. Holy Smokes there was a lot of good band!
3. I know it has been talked about at nauseam, but I wonder if there was a world or way to adopt a hybrid or mix of how WGI does things with BOA? I don't think BOA is far off and generally speaking I think judges are trying to do the best they can to get the right 12 into the Saturday night show. But with the number of just pure quality out there, I wonder if there's a way to work it out so that more groups get more shots at performances? Not even sure I know what I mean by that. But 84's not making semis is tough.
4. I think I like the reps being on at the end? It was almost it's own mini comp within the comp which is kind of unique. On a year where Tarpon isn't doing Tarpon things and maybe there's a bigger Texas contingent. There's a possibility of 7-8 A/AA Reps duking it out at the end. Fun stuff! I do wonder if the judges are able to do that with some.. care? I can't imagine the pressures and energy it takes to watch the top 30 starting at 6:15 to get the right 12 in. AND THEN you get to 3:15 and you have to try to pick a champion there. I just wonder if it's worth another panel or something like that. Not to make small bands feel separate but if it's already sort of a mini comp within a comp, why not?
5. I'm going to miss watching band for the rest of the year! Gosh it's been a lot of fun. The quality nationwide is really something everyone should be proud of.
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 18, 2024 11:16:38 GMT -6
There was pretty good agreement with the judges that Brownsburg was marching and playing at or close to a GN finalist level. But it was really GE that killed them, contrary to their scores at Indy super.
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Post by indyguy8362 on Nov 18, 2024 12:56:27 GMT -6
There was pretty good agreement with the judges that Brownsburg was marching and playing at or close to a GN finalist level. But it was really GE that killed them, contrary to their scores at Indy super. i think brownsburg and fishers had grand national finalist caliber students but their show coronation was noticeably a step down from the last 2 years. it’s really hard for me to believe that the skills of the students and the teaching of staff took a step down. a good way to look at it is the individual scores. mus and vis ind both had fishers and brownsburg in finals |
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Post by brassplayer on Nov 18, 2024 13:50:42 GMT -6
There was pretty good agreement with the judges that Brownsburg was marching and playing at or close to a GN finalist level. But it was really GE that killed them, contrary to their scores at Indy super. i think brownsburg and fishers had grand national finalist caliber students but their show coronation was noticeably a step down from the last 2 years. it’s really hard for me to believe that the skills of the students and the teaching of staff took a step down. a good way to look at it is the individual scores. mus and vis ind both had fishers and brownsburg in finals Not sure if this is true, but I’ve heard rumors that Fishers will be changing their design team for next season. If this comes true, I’m interested to see how it will effect their scores. |
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Post by philodemus on Nov 19, 2024 9:17:19 GMT -6
Some Thoughts on the Only Important Event of the Weekend - Class A
Had the opportunity to see all of the contenders in the all important small-school competition--and for that matter I think every 1A group, period--and wanted to drop a few thoughts into the ether.
As most of us had thought going in, it was pretty clear which 4 were the proper class reps in Semifinals. Alter, in my opinion, left the door open a crack... but no one else was quite able to walk through. Getting the right 4 into the Saturday show was, of course, all we could ask from judges with two different panels judging 112 groups spread out over 48 very long hours, but there was some interesting moving around between Prelims and Semifinals.
Murray's rise [from third to 1st] doesn't seem to me to be very hard to explain: they went on quite early on Thursday and were lost in the shuffle by Friday afternoon. No, the head scratcher is Marian falling all the way from 1st to 4th. Even if you believed that Murray was simply on a stronger Prelims panel, that would seem to cause Marian to drop no further than 3rd.
Personally, I think MC had real strengths and real weaknesses, the former of which shone through all weekend and the latter of which bubbled to the surface during Semifinals. Their hornline--to my ear--sounded wonderful, but their guard and drums were not as strong. The drums, in particular, went south in the Semifinals run causing a few timing tears. The guard was spinning what they were given very well, but weren't being challenged in the way Murray and Bourbon were. From a design point of view, I don't think MC's team did a bad job, but I thought Murray's show was a better overall package, and Bourbon may have been slightly ahead of them in that department as well.
All that said, I really did think Marian played wonderfully and I thought they had a real chance to be called last in 1A. I definitely did not think they wouldn't be called at all. Putting Archbishop Alter in front of them really makes no sense to me of any kind. From the recap, it seems like the GE judges were the main culprits... which to my tastes is ridiculous, particularly in Music GE. That guitarist was good, but he was not more effective than Marian's hornline. By the end of Alter's show I had had quite enough guitar, but I could have happily listened to more of MC's horns.
Essentially, I thought the judges got the winner correct and probably second place correct, but I'm a bit boggled by third and fourth.
Would be very curious for Dan Balash's thoughts... I mean, we know his overall opinion on the outcome, but perhaps in some detail.
And, I Guess as Long as I'm Here, Some Thoughts on the Big School Show
I enjoyed Castle and Friendswood a lot, in very different ways. Fisher's didn't quite gel for me, though I loved individual moments. I was super pleased that someone noticed that Carmel has no general effect in Semis, and somewhat annoyed that the Finals panel believed that they did. Broken Arrow may be the loudest high school band I've ever heard... and I liked that. I wish Avon's guard wasn't costumed so similarly to the musicians, but that is literally my only criticism of any kind.
And as I said before, I will say again: In a fair universe, the amount of physical demand being placed on Tarpon's students while they play at almost the same level as the top 3 would be taken more into account. Or, maybe we could just settle for a universe in which Tarpon isn't hit by two hurricanes and can clean their music a bit more. Man, that show was cool, and I really hope they keep doing their thing and don't feel tempted to water it down for an eagle.
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Post by rickyrosay on Nov 19, 2024 9:47:45 GMT -6
Some Thoughts on the Only Important Event of the Weekend - Class A
Had the opportunity to see all of the contenders in the all important small-school competition--and for that matter I think every 1A group, period--and wanted to drop a few thoughts into the ether. As most of us had thought going in, it was pretty clear which 4 were the proper class reps in Semifinals. Alter, in my opinion, left the door open a crack... but no one else was quite able to walk through. Getting the right 4 into the Saturday show was, of course, all we could ask from judges with two different panels judging 112 groups spread out over 48 very long hours, but there was some interesting moving around between Prelims and Semifinals. Murray's rise [from third to 1st] doesn't seem to me to be very hard to explain: they went on quite early on Thursday and were lost in the shuffle by Friday afternoon. No, the head scratcher is Marian falling all the way from 1st to 4th. Even if you believed that Murray was simply on a stronger Prelims panel, that would seem to cause Marian to drop no further than 3rd. Personally, I think MC had real strengths and real weaknesses, the former of which shone through all weekend and the latter of which bubbled to the surface during Semifinals. Their hornline--to my ear--sounded wonderful, but their guard and drums were not as strong. The drums, in particular, went south in the Semifinals run causing a few timing tears. The guard was spinning what they were given very well, but weren't being challenged in the way Murray and Bourbon were. From a design point of view, I don't think MC's team did a bad job, but I thought Murray's show was a better overall package, and Bourbon may have been slightly ahead of them in that department as well. All that said, I really did think Marian played wonderfully and I thought they had a real chance to be called last in 1A. I definitely did not think they wouldn't be called at all. Putting Archbishop Alter in front of them really makes no sense to me of any kind. From the recap, it seems like the GE judges were the main culprits... which to my tastes is ridiculous, particularly in Music GE. That guitarist was good, but he was not more effective than Marian's hornline. By the end of Alter's show I had had quite enough guitar, but I could have happily listened to more of MC's horns. Essentially, I thought the judges got the winner correct and probably second place correct, but I'm a bit boggled by third and fourth. Would be very curious for Dan Balash's thoughts... I mean, we know his overall opinion on the outcome, but perhaps in some detail. And, I Guess as Long as I'm Here, Some Thoughts on the Big School ShowI enjoyed Castle and Friendswood a lot, in very different ways. Fisher's didn't quite gel for me, though I loved individual moments. I was super pleased that someone noticed that Carmel has no general effect in Semis, and somewhat annoyed that the Finals panel believed that they did. Broken Arrow may be the loudest high school band I've ever heard... and I liked that. I wish Avon's guard wasn't costumed so similarly to the musicians, but that is literally my only criticism of any kind. And as I said before, I will say again: In a fair universe, the amount of physical demand being placed on Tarpon's students while they play at almost the same level as the top 3 would be taken more into account. Or, maybe we could just settle for a universe in which Tarpon isn't hit by two hurricanes and can clean their music a bit more. Man, that show was cool, and I really hope they keep doing their thing and don't feel tempted to water it down for an eagle. I always want to be careful in these conversations to not diminish the really hard work from all of the kids participating. Because often what people discuss isn't the how kids are doing something but the what kids are doing and that has nothing to do with them. I touched on this elsewhere but I'll put it here as well. I do wonder how much judge fatigue played into the class rep numbers. And I mean that with no disrespect because I do think that Murray was better! But starting at 6:15 and really having to truly focus on that next 8 with some of the groups that were there. Then that middle 22. You get to the end and I just wonder if they were mentally drained. I could be way off. But it's just a thought. Ultimately they probably got a lot of it right. Just leads to a nuanced discussion on how best to handle A/AA. We may not be far from a time where there are 8 reps depending on who all shows up and that day becomes even longer. |
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Post by philodemus on Nov 19, 2024 10:05:40 GMT -6
I always want to be careful in these conversations to not diminish the really hard work from all of the kids participating. Because often what people discuss isn't the how kids are doing something but the what kids are doing and that has nothing to do with them. I touched on this elsewhere but I'll put it here as well. I do wonder how much judge fatigue played into the class rep numbers. And I mean that with no disrespect because I do think that Murray was better! But starting at 6:15 and really having to truly focus on that next 8 with some of the groups that were there. Then that middle 22. You get to the end and I just wonder if they were mentally drained. I could be way off. But it's just a thought. Ultimately they probably got a lot of it right. Just leads to a nuanced discussion on how best to handle A/AA. We may not be far from a time where there are 8 reps depending on who all shows up and that day becomes even longer. 100% agree... criticism is always of the adults, not the kids! I saw your idea earlier to have a separate panel for the Class Reps to avoid fatigue, and I think there could be some merit to that. I also wonder if the judges are at all confused by the format changes that we've had lately. For instance, having Cass [AA] stuck in there between the Class A groups... did that confuse anyone? I mean, it's not a big delay, but it sorted of separated Marian off from the others. I also, also wonder if Alter just presents such a huge 'philosophy of judging' issue that the waters get muddied. How do you fairly compare a micro-band against a group of 100-150 like Murray or Marian? It's just.... really different. |
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Post by rickyrosay on Nov 19, 2024 10:53:05 GMT -6
100% agree... criticism is always of the adults, not the kids! I saw your idea earlier to have a separate panel for the Class Reps to avoid fatigue, and I think there could be some merit to that. I also wonder if the judges are at all confused by the format changes that we've had lately. For instance, having Cass [AA] stuck in there between the Class A groups... did that confuse anyone? I mean, it's not a big delay, but it sorted of separated Marian off from the others. I also, also wonder if Alter just presents such a huge 'philosophy of judging' issue that the waters get muddied. How do you fairly compare a micro-band against a group of 100-150 like Murray or Marian? It's just.... really different. I really enjoy the Alter conversation because I do think it forces everyone to really take a look at how we're rewarding groups. They also are living proof for any of those small bands that hey, you can hang with some heavy hitters. At least I think that could be the message if other groups who would approach things similarly are rewarded similarly. If that makes sense. But you're right. 15 vs 100-150 is a different game. I'm interested in how things move forward! |
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 19, 2024 11:43:57 GMT -6
Some Thoughts on the Only Important Event of the Weekend - Class A
Had the opportunity to see all of the contenders in the all important small-school competition--and for that matter I think every 1A group, period--and wanted to drop a few thoughts into the ether. As most of us had thought going in, it was pretty clear which 4 were the proper class reps in Semifinals. Alter, in my opinion, left the door open a crack... but no one else was quite able to walk through. Getting the right 4 into the Saturday show was, of course, all we could ask from judges with two different panels judging 112 groups spread out over 48 very long hours, but there was some interesting moving around between Prelims and Semifinals. Murray's rise [from third to 1st] doesn't seem to me to be very hard to explain: they went on quite early on Thursday and were lost in the shuffle by Friday afternoon. No, the head scratcher is Marian falling all the way from 1st to 4th. Even if you believed that Murray was simply on a stronger Prelims panel, that would seem to cause Marian to drop no further than 3rd. Personally, I think MC had real strengths and real weaknesses, the former of which shone through all weekend and the latter of which bubbled to the surface during Semifinals. Their hornline--to my ear--sounded wonderful, but their guard and drums were not as strong. The drums, in particular, went south in the Semifinals run causing a few timing tears. The guard was spinning what they were given very well, but weren't being challenged in the way Murray and Bourbon were. From a design point of view, I don't think MC's team did a bad job, but I thought Murray's show was a better overall package, and Bourbon may have been slightly ahead of them in that department as well. All that said, I really did think Marian played wonderfully and I thought they had a real chance to be called last in 1A. I definitely did not think they wouldn't be called at all. Putting Archbishop Alter in front of them really makes no sense to me of any kind. From the recap, it seems like the GE judges were the main culprits... which to my tastes is ridiculous, particularly in Music GE. That guitarist was good, but he was not more effective than Marian's hornline. By the end of Alter's show I had had quite enough guitar, but I could have happily listened to more of MC's horns. Essentially, I thought the judges got the winner correct and probably second place correct, but I'm a bit boggled by third and fourth. Would be very curious for Dan Balash's thoughts... I mean, we know his overall opinion on the outcome, but perhaps in some detail. And, I Guess as Long as I'm Here, Some Thoughts on the Big School ShowI enjoyed Castle and Friendswood a lot, in very different ways. Fisher's didn't quite gel for me, though I loved individual moments. I was super pleased that someone noticed that Carmel has no general effect in Semis, and somewhat annoyed that the Finals panel believed that they did. Broken Arrow may be the loudest high school band I've ever heard... and I liked that. I wish Avon's guard wasn't costumed so similarly to the musicians, but that is literally my only criticism of any kind. And as I said before, I will say again: In a fair universe, the amount of physical demand being placed on Tarpon's students while they play at almost the same level as the top 3 would be taken more into account. Or, maybe we could just settle for a universe in which Tarpon isn't hit by two hurricanes and can clean their music a bit more. Man, that show was cool, and I really hope they keep doing their thing and don't feel tempted to water it down for an eagle. I wasn’t in the field but I do not think Carmel should have been placed as high as they did. So many questionable musical moments. Design felt like something from 20 years ago. BA should have been a solid second. |
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 19, 2024 12:07:47 GMT -6
Murray's rise [from 3rd to 1st] doesn't seem to me to be very hard to explain: they went on quite early on Thursday and were lost in the shuffle by Friday afternoon. No, the head scratcher is Marian falling all the way from 1st to 4th. Even if you believed that Murray was simply on a stronger Prelims panel, that would seem to cause Marian to drop no further than 3rd. ... Fishers didn't quite gel for me, though I loved individual moments. Murray's show included prerecorded narration a la David Attenborough that explained what was going on. Due to technical malfunctions, that narration was largely inaudible during their Semifinals performance (and again in their Finals exhibition performance), so I was surprised that they moved up. Or maybe the Prelims judges didn't like the narration and that's what held them back? I agree about Fishers, but they did have my favorite vocalist. |
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Post by philodemus on Nov 19, 2024 15:16:12 GMT -6
Murray's rise [from 3rd to 1st] doesn't seem to me to be very hard to explain: they went on quite early on Thursday and were lost in the shuffle by Friday afternoon. No, the head scratcher is Marian falling all the way from 1st to 4th. Even if you believed that Murray was simply on a stronger Prelims panel, that would seem to cause Marian to drop no further than 3rd. ... Fishers didn't quite gel for me, though I loved individual moments. Murray's show included prerecorded narration a la David Attenborough that explained what was going on. Due to technical malfunctions, that narration was largely inaudible during their Semifinals performance (and again in their Finals exhibition performance), so I was surprised that they moved up. Or maybe the Prelims judges didn't like the narration and that's what held them back? Right... they've struggled with electronic stuff all year, I think. But, honestly, I think Murray's win this weekend had little to do with show concept [which was fine] and was more about just playing and spinning better than the other groups. To be clear, I don't think they were just destroying Bourbon and Marian Catholic in those areas, but I think in every subcategory [brass, woodwinds, percussion, guard] they were just a bit ahead. Add all that up and you get a championship trophy. We only saw them head to head with Marian once, but in the case of Bourbon 3 panels in a row have now nearly unanimously had them in the lead. Of course, having a guard three times the size of Alter's entire band doesn't hurt. |
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Post by rickyrosay on Nov 19, 2024 15:19:04 GMT -6
Murray's show included prerecorded narration a la David Attenborough that explained what was going on. Due to technical malfunctions, that narration was largely inaudible during their Semifinals performance (and again in their Finals exhibition performance), so I was surprised that they moved up. Or maybe the Prelims judges didn't like the narration and that's what held them back? Right... they've struggled with electronic stuff all year, I think. But, honestly, I think Murray's win this weekend had little to do with show concept [which was fine] and was more about just playing and spinning better than the other groups. To be clear, I don't think they were just destroying Bourbon and Marian Catholic in those areas, but I think in every subcategory [brass, woodwinds, percussion, guard] they were just a bit ahead. Add all that up and you get a championship trophy. We only saw them head to head with Marian once, but in the case of Bourbon 3 panels in a row have now nearly unanimously had them in the lead. Of course, having a guard three times the size of Alter's entire band doesn't hurt. And one heck of a guard at that! |
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Post by redpants on Nov 19, 2024 22:10:04 GMT -6
Question...why the combination for Avon? I know who Piet Mondrian is, and I know what Russian Christmas Music is, but why put those two things together? Super well executed, just a little confusing. It finally came to me out of the blue today. 1)Mondrian painted lots of boxes. 2)When else do you see lots of boxes? Christmas, of course. 3)Avon’s boxes all nested inside each other like Russian nesting dolls. Ergo, Russian Nesting Mondrian Christmas boxes. |
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Post by MadScientist on Nov 20, 2024 11:25:27 GMT -6
Question...why the combination for Avon? I know who Piet Mondrian is, and I know what Russian Christmas Music is, but why put those two things together? Super well executed, just a little confusing. It finally came to me out of the blue today. out of the blue...and yellow and red... |
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Post by pedazos on Nov 20, 2024 12:47:34 GMT -6
Question...why the combination for Avon? I know who Piet Mondrian is, and I know what Russian Christmas Music is, but why put those two things together? Super well executed, just a little confusing. It finally came to me out of the blue today. 1)Mondrian painted lots of boxes. 2)When else do you see lots of boxes? Christmas, of course. 3)Avon’s boxes all nested inside each other like Russian nesting dolls. Ergo, Russian Nesting Mondrian Christmas boxes. The boxes were kind of like matryoshka dolls, or also commonly known as Russian nesting dolls. Both the music and the props had a 'Russian'-theme to them, I guess. Not sure how Mondrian played into it other than the shapes of the boxes, so I guess it all does tie together in the end? Either way, BRILLIANT show from Avon!! |
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Post by horntrumpetdad on Nov 20, 2024 13:19:17 GMT -6
I don't necessarily even think a show needs a really singular theme, to be good, so even if there were no connections at all, I'd have enjoyed their show just as much. But I will point out, as several of us did the first time we saw them, that I found their costumes to be overly busy and very distracting. It made their individual movements less noticeable and less impactful. Ultimately that didn't seem to hurt them in the scoring, but just for my personal enjoyment of the show, I would have liked it better with less distracting costumes. My comment at the time was that, rather than making each individual costume an independent Mondrian piece, the designers could have divided the band into 4 separate groups and then used one solid color for each costume in their chosen Mondrian palette of red/white/yellow/blue, perhaps each bordered in black, and it would have been visually less confusing and distracting to me. And then also imagine the set pieces and vignettes that could have been designed on the field, turning the entire band itself into one large Mondrian piece after another, flowing from one design to the next. And then the very clever and fun cube props could have been even more integrated into the show. HOWEVER... that's a pretty minor quibble, and obviously they didn't need MY input in order to put on a great show and win the whole contest.  |
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Post by pedazos on Nov 20, 2024 13:47:09 GMT -6
I don't necessarily even think a show needs a really singular theme, to be good, so even if there were no connections at all, I'd have enjoyed their show just as much. But I will point out, as several of us did the first time we saw them, that I found their costumes to be overly busy and very distracting. It made their individual movements less noticeable and less impactful. Ultimately that didn't seem to hurt them in the scoring, but just for my personal enjoyment of the show, I would have liked it better with less distracting costumes. My comment at the time was that, rather than making each individual costume an independent Mondrian piece, the designers could have divided the band into 4 separate groups and then used one solid color for each costume in their chosen Mondrian palette of red/white/yellow/blue, perhaps each bordered in black, and it would have been visually less confusing and distracting to me. And then also imagine the set pieces and vignettes that could have been designed on the field, turning the entire band itself into one large Mondrian piece after another, flowing from one design to the next. And then the very clever and fun cube props could have been even more integrated into the show. HOWEVER... that's a pretty minor quibble, and obviously they didn't need MY input in order to put on a great show and win the whole contest. The costumes have been polarizing all season, and for me it mattered how I was viewing the show. Watching it on a webcast was tough, as the costumes clashed with the green field and kind of drowned out the performers. However in person, I thought the costumes looked amazing and accentuated the marching technique at certain points of the show (the line down the leg). |
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Post by horntrumpetdad on Nov 20, 2024 14:10:16 GMT -6
I don't necessarily even think a show needs a really singular theme, to be good, so even if there were no connections at all, I'd have enjoyed their show just as much. But I will point out, as several of us did the first time we saw them, that I found their costumes to be overly busy and very distracting. It made their individual movements less noticeable and less impactful. Ultimately that didn't seem to hurt them in the scoring, but just for my personal enjoyment of the show, I would have liked it better with less distracting costumes. My comment at the time was that, rather than making each individual costume an independent Mondrian piece, the designers could have divided the band into 4 separate groups and then used one solid color for each costume in their chosen Mondrian palette of red/white/yellow/blue, perhaps each bordered in black, and it would have been visually less confusing and distracting to me. And then also imagine the set pieces and vignettes that could have been designed on the field, turning the entire band itself into one large Mondrian piece after another, flowing from one design to the next. And then the very clever and fun cube props could have been even more integrated into the show. HOWEVER... that's a pretty minor quibble, and obviously they didn't need MY input in order to put on a great show and win the whole contest. The costumes have been polarizing all season, and for me it mattered how I was viewing the show. Watching it on a webcast was tough, as the costumes clashed with the green field and kind of drowned out the performers. However in person, I thought the costumes looked amazing and accentuated the marching technique at certain points of the show (the line down the leg). For reference, I saw them once on streaming and once live. I felt the same, either way. |
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Post by es203 on Nov 21, 2024 8:20:59 GMT -6
Some Thoughts on the Only Important Event of the Weekend - Class A
Had the opportunity to see all of the contenders in the all important small-school competition--and for that matter I think every 1A group, period--and wanted to drop a few thoughts into the ether. As most of us had thought going in, it was pretty clear which 4 were the proper class reps in Semifinals. Alter, in my opinion, left the door open a crack... but no one else was quite able to walk through. Getting the right 4 into the Saturday show was, of course, all we could ask from judges with two different panels judging 112 groups spread out over 48 very long hours, but there was some interesting moving around between Prelims and Semifinals. Murray's rise [from third to 1st] doesn't seem to me to be very hard to explain: they went on quite early on Thursday and were lost in the shuffle by Friday afternoon. No, the head scratcher is Marian falling all the way from 1st to 4th. Even if you believed that Murray was simply on a stronger Prelims panel, that would seem to cause Marian to drop no further than 3rd. Personally, I think MC had real strengths and real weaknesses, the former of which shone through all weekend and the latter of which bubbled to the surface during Semifinals. Their hornline--to my ear--sounded wonderful, but their guard and drums were not as strong. The drums, in particular, went south in the Semifinals run causing a few timing tears. The guard was spinning what they were given very well, but weren't being challenged in the way Murray and Bourbon were. From a design point of view, I don't think MC's team did a bad job, but I thought Murray's show was a better overall package, and Bourbon may have been slightly ahead of them in that department as well. All that said, I really did think Marian played wonderfully and I thought they had a real chance to be called last in 1A. I definitely did not think they wouldn't be called at all. Putting Archbishop Alter in front of them really makes no sense to me of any kind. From the recap, it seems like the GE judges were the main culprits... which to my tastes is ridiculous, particularly in Music GE. That guitarist was good, but he was not more effective than Marian's hornline. By the end of Alter's show I had had quite enough guitar, but I could have happily listened to more of MC's horns. Essentially, I thought the judges got the winner correct and probably second place correct, but I'm a bit boggled by third and fourth. Would be very curious for Dan Balash's thoughts... I mean, we know his overall opinion on the outcome, but perhaps in some detail. And, I Guess as Long as I'm Here, Some Thoughts on the Big School ShowI enjoyed Castle and Friendswood a lot, in very different ways. Fisher's didn't quite gel for me, though I loved individual moments. I was super pleased that someone noticed that Carmel has no general effect in Semis, and somewhat annoyed that the Finals panel believed that they did. Broken Arrow may be the loudest high school band I've ever heard... and I liked that. I wish Avon's guard wasn't costumed so similarly to the musicians, but that is literally my only criticism of any kind. And as I said before, I will say again: In a fair universe, the amount of physical demand being placed on Tarpon's students while they play at almost the same level as the top 3 would be taken more into account. Or, maybe we could just settle for a universe in which Tarpon isn't hit by two hurricanes and can clean their music a bit more. Man, that show was cool, and I really hope they keep doing their thing and don't feel tempted to water it down for an eagle. Was BA really louder than Cedar Park? On the stream it sounded like cedar park was definitely the loudest, BA maybe second and Avon third. I will say, watching St. Louis finals in person this year BA was the loudest group by far. Definitely one of the louder high school bands I’ve heard before. |
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Post by philodemus on Nov 21, 2024 8:31:52 GMT -6
Some Thoughts on the Only Important Event of the Weekend - Class A
Had the opportunity to see all of the contenders in the all important small-school competition--and for that matter I think every 1A group, period--and wanted to drop a few thoughts into the ether. As most of us had thought going in, it was pretty clear which 4 were the proper class reps in Semifinals. Alter, in my opinion, left the door open a crack... but no one else was quite able to walk through. Getting the right 4 into the Saturday show was, of course, all we could ask from judges with two different panels judging 112 groups spread out over 48 very long hours, but there was some interesting moving around between Prelims and Semifinals. Murray's rise [from third to 1st] doesn't seem to me to be very hard to explain: they went on quite early on Thursday and were lost in the shuffle by Friday afternoon. No, the head scratcher is Marian falling all the way from 1st to 4th. Even if you believed that Murray was simply on a stronger Prelims panel, that would seem to cause Marian to drop no further than 3rd. Personally, I think MC had real strengths and real weaknesses, the former of which shone through all weekend and the latter of which bubbled to the surface during Semifinals. Their hornline--to my ear--sounded wonderful, but their guard and drums were not as strong. The drums, in particular, went south in the Semifinals run causing a few timing tears. The guard was spinning what they were given very well, but weren't being challenged in the way Murray and Bourbon were. From a design point of view, I don't think MC's team did a bad job, but I thought Murray's show was a better overall package, and Bourbon may have been slightly ahead of them in that department as well. All that said, I really did think Marian played wonderfully and I thought they had a real chance to be called last in 1A. I definitely did not think they wouldn't be called at all. Putting Archbishop Alter in front of them really makes no sense to me of any kind. From the recap, it seems like the GE judges were the main culprits... which to my tastes is ridiculous, particularly in Music GE. That guitarist was good, but he was not more effective than Marian's hornline. By the end of Alter's show I had had quite enough guitar, but I could have happily listened to more of MC's horns. Essentially, I thought the judges got the winner correct and probably second place correct, but I'm a bit boggled by third and fourth. Would be very curious for Dan Balash's thoughts... I mean, we know his overall opinion on the outcome, but perhaps in some detail. And, I Guess as Long as I'm Here, Some Thoughts on the Big School ShowI enjoyed Castle and Friendswood a lot, in very different ways. Fisher's didn't quite gel for me, though I loved individual moments. I was super pleased that someone noticed that Carmel has no general effect in Semis, and somewhat annoyed that the Finals panel believed that they did. Broken Arrow may be the loudest high school band I've ever heard... and I liked that. I wish Avon's guard wasn't costumed so similarly to the musicians, but that is literally my only criticism of any kind. And as I said before, I will say again: In a fair universe, the amount of physical demand being placed on Tarpon's students while they play at almost the same level as the top 3 would be taken more into account. Or, maybe we could just settle for a universe in which Tarpon isn't hit by two hurricanes and can clean their music a bit more. Man, that show was cool, and I really hope they keep doing their thing and don't feel tempted to water it down for an eagle. Was BA really louder than Cedar Park? On the stream it sounded like cedar park was definitely the loudest, BA maybe second and Avon third. I will say, watching St. Louis finals in person this year BA was the loudest group by far. Definitely one of the louder high school bands I’ve heard before. From my seat, yes. Or it seemed that way. It could also be the way the show was designed: they had that lovely, extended woodwind moment to open and when the brass turned around the contrast was extremely impactful. That was the moment I thought, “Is this the loudest band I’ve ever heard?” |
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Post by drumdad on Nov 21, 2024 9:00:24 GMT -6
I wasn’t in the field but I do not think Carmel should have been placed as high as they did. So many questionable musical moments. Design felt like something from 20 years ago. BA should have been a solid second. As a casually observing parent (whose marching day are long over), the big debate in our group was whether Avon or BA would win. BTW, my kid is a senior who got to medal-out. Such a great memory! |
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 21, 2024 9:42:47 GMT -6
Was BA really louder than Cedar Park? On the stream it sounded like cedar park was definitely the loudest, BA maybe second and Avon third. I will say, watching St. Louis finals in person this year BA was the loudest group by far. Definitely one of the louder high school bands I’ve heard before. From my seat, yes. Or it seemed that way. It could also be the way the show was designed: they had that lovely, extended woodwind moment to open and when the brass turned around the contrast was extremely impactful. That was the moment I thought, “Is this the loudest band I’ve ever heard?” Keep in mind that the Box5 mics are often behind the speakers that add to the volume experienced in the stands. |
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Post by baritonedeaf on Nov 21, 2024 9:51:15 GMT -6
From my observations of Tarpon's program over the years I really do feel confident they won't change a thing. The program is premised on it basically competing with itself-- no strong emphasis on the numerics and placement. With a lot of groups I would find that to be a bit disingenuous, but Kevin Ford is a very gifted, ambitious drill designer and his kids would march through fire for him. They want to put on a show, and if there isn't a part of the next show where some trumpet player is getting launched into the air via catapault as they play the preshow I'll personally be surprised. Innovation can be the true reward sometimes.
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Post by hereforthesax on Nov 21, 2024 21:20:04 GMT -6
I did love that the director went straight out on the field when they were finished and walked until there were no students behind him to make sure he was the last one off the field. I imagine exhaustion and emotions are high. I know this post was early on, but I wanted to circle back on it. There is so much love and mutual respect between the staff and the kids. There was a semifinals award watch party in the band room yesterday. There were so many tears, but also so many kids wanting Mr. Kaflik to sign their helmets…. I missed your reply. Their staff is amazing and so are the kids. What a neat memory of signing helmets! Their program seems so strong and well-balanced. |
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 30, 2024 18:53:42 GMT -6
OSU and UM on the same field 😳😳 Today the Ohio State University and University of Michigan reprised this joint performance as the halftime entertainment at the big game. But Bands of America's audience got to see it first. (And without a fight breaking out later!) |
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Post by jakeymam12 on Nov 30, 2024 21:19:53 GMT -6
OSU and UM on the same field 😳😳 (And without a fight breaking out later!) (The Football teams, not the bands 😂) |
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