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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2020 20:22:35 GMT -6
Every competition’s scores jump or decline from prelims to finals due to different panels, but what are some of the largest score gaps between different rounds of a competition by a single band?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2020 20:49:18 GMT -6
Most recently at nats, Forest Hills scored 84.50 in prelims and 80.00 in semis
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Post by boahistorybuff on Jan 29, 2020 19:32:41 GMT -6
I am not as big into score variations. GN finals always seemes to be judged a bit differently then semi finals. Here a few placement jumps at Grand Nationals that I can think of that are pretty big.
1985 - North Hardin, KY: 12th in prelims to 5th in finals (a penalty in prelims was involved in this). 1989 - Plymouth Canton, MI: 1st in prelims to 7th in finals. 1989 - Norwin, PA: 7th in prelims to 3rd in finals. 1989 - JM Tate, FL: 4th in prelims to 9th in finals. 1994 - Klein, TX: 12th in prelims to 7th in finals. 1995 - Etiwanda, CA: 5th in prelims to 10th in finals. 2004 - Carmel, IN: 8th in Semi Finals to 3rd in finals. 2013 - Cedar Ridge, TX: 5th in Semi Finals to 11th in finals. 2013 - Harrison, GA: 11th in Semi Finals to 7th in finals.
I am sure I am missing a few, these are the ones that jump out to me.
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Post by flynnmac on Jan 29, 2020 20:35:37 GMT -6
At Midland this year, Timber Creek got a 79.90 in prelims and went up to an 84.07 in finals. Maybe not as big as some others but decent still.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 21:13:36 GMT -6
Some more random examples
2018 Jacksonville:
Laurens District 55 Prelims- 72.05 Finals- 68.75
2018 Indy Super:
Rosemount Prelims- 79.575 Finals- 82.95
2018 St. Louis
Jenks Prelims- 85.00 Finals: 88.60
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Post by Subito Fortissimo on Jan 29, 2020 21:44:50 GMT -6
One thing to consider when looking at round to round score changes is that what matters about the scores is not really relative to 100, but rather relative to the other bands. A score spread between bands that increases or decreases significantly is way more indicative of a better or worse quality performance than what the actual number is.
That said, the actual score number can often be affected by finals performance order too. When the top bands perform earlier in finals the scores across the board tend to drop as the judges prefer to leave room at the top and thus score the lower quality bands down to keep the spreads relative. We saw this more often back when GN finals and Super Regional finals were a complete random draw rather than bottom half/top half. This doesn't always happen but it happens more commonly in that scenario.
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Post by stlbanddad on Jan 30, 2020 14:44:51 GMT -6
2019 Cedar Falls Regional Camdenton - 75.75 in Prelims to 80.65 in Finals (44.7 GE Total to 49.4 in Finals)
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Post by verysaxy on Feb 9, 2020 9:37:44 GMT -6
This isn’t prelims to finals but prelims to semis.... DANG those prelims rankings were INSANE! The difference between that and the semis scores don’t fail to amaze me. Even if it had been set up like a normal prelims to finals scores, we would have the same finalists, but just look at 13-30! (I put their semis placement in parentheses) 13. Park Vista (16) 14. Centerville (20) 15. Fishers (13) 16. Harrison (15) 17. James F Byrnes (23) 18. Rockford (19) 19. Miamisburg (22) 20. MPLT (14) 21. Brownsburg (18) 22. Marian Catholic (17) 23. Lakota West (27) 24. Forest Hills (30) 25. North Hardin (21) 26. Jenison (26) 27. Lake Hamilton (32) 28. PCEP (24) 29. Ben Davis (28) 30. Panther Creek (25) Yeah... those are crazy. Too high (for me) - Centerville, Harrison, JFB, Miamisburg, Lakota West, Forest Hills, Lake Hamilton Too low - Fishers, MPLT, Brownsburg, Marian, North Hardin, PCEP, Panther Creek If you can’t tell, I SEVERELY disagree with prelims ranking. I think those judges were on something. The fact that Center Grove, Windermere(?!?), Independence, and Greendale were left out of semis should’ve told me that from the start. Ok. Anti-prelims judges rant over
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2020 12:33:16 GMT -6
Park vista was 16th in semis, but yeah prelims judging was wack
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Post by paddy on Feb 9, 2020 17:59:36 GMT -6
The fact that Center Grove, Windermere(?!?), Independence, and Greendale were left out of semis should’ve told me that from the start. Ok. Anti-prelims judges rant over I can’t speak from a well informed standpoint on all these schools, but I have no qualms about Center Grove and Greendale missing semis this year.
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Post by verysaxy on Feb 9, 2020 19:39:27 GMT -6
The fact that Center Grove, Windermere(?!?), Independence, and Greendale were left out of semis should’ve told me that from the start. Ok. Anti-prelims judges rant over I can’t speak from a well informed standpoint on all these schools, but I have no qualms about Center Grove and Greendale missing semis this year. Center Grove’s prelims performance may have been different in person, but through Flo it was good enough to make it (imo). I watched Greendale live and they were way past good enough musically to push through, but visuals were tough. I see why they didn’t make it since AA add-one were cut throat this year, and greendale just got the butt end of the stick. I would have rather seen them in over Greenfield- Central, but that’s not what this is about
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2020 20:13:34 GMT -6
Meanwhile in AAA, not to diss on chattahoochee bc I love them and am proud of them, but 54th...
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Post by principalagent on Feb 9, 2020 20:28:28 GMT -6
Meanwhile in AAA, not to diss on chattahoochee bc I love them and am proud of them, but 54th... Most of the AAA darlings skipped this year. Someone had to make it in.
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Post by thewho on Feb 10, 2020 12:19:19 GMT -6
This isn’t prelims to finals but prelims to semis.... DANG those prelims rankings were INSANE! The difference between that and the semis scores don’t fail to amaze me. Even if it had been set up like a normal prelims to finals scores, we would have the same finalists, but just look at 13-30! (I put their semis placement in parentheses) 13. Park Vista (16) 14. Centerville (20) 15. Fishers (13) 16. Harrison (15) 17. James F Byrnes (23) 18. Rockford (19) 19. Miamisburg (22) 20. MPLT (14) 21. Brownsburg (18) 22. Marian Catholic (17) 23. Lakota West (27) 24. Forest Hills (30) 25. North Hardin (21) 26. Jenison (26) 27. Lake Hamilton (32) 28. PCEP (24) 29. Ben Davis (28) 30. Panther Creek (25) Yeah... those are crazy. Too high (for me) - Centerville, Harrison, JFB, Miamisburg, Lakota West, Forest Hills, Lake Hamilton Too low - Fishers, MPLT, Brownsburg, Marian, North Hardin, PCEP, Panther Creek If you can’t tell, I SEVERELY disagree with prelims ranking. I think those judges were on something. The fact that Center Grove, Windermere(?!?), Independence, and Greendale were left out of semis should’ve told me that from the start. Ok. Anti-prelims judges rant over The goal of prelims judges are to get the correct bands up to semifinals. I will concede that prelims has always been pretty wild to a degree even with a single judging panel across both days. The double judging panel just makes it a lot more obvious. I've just ended up not paying attention to the order of the top 22 because it's always going to be those bands (though I will pay attention when the same 10-12 bands make finals). For this year, I'm cool with the next 8- I think Center Grove and Windermere were much stronger candidates, but it's not like any of the bands that made it in doesn't have a case. This also isn't the first time more deserving bands randomly got the shaft for no reason. Stuff happens (shrug). That being said, I really dislike how wild the swings between the double judging panels have been for A and AA (and AAA sometimes). I fully do not believe the current procedures allow for effective competition for those classes- Greendale getting the shaft several times in the past since the double judging panel changes, Adair just randomly missing in 2017. These kind of things were not present before in the single panel. I honestly kind of for the idea of calling bands that make semifinals through class qualification "class qualifiers" instead of semifinalists because I am not going to give Chattahoochee the distinguishment over Center Grove, Windermere, etc.
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Post by verysaxy on Feb 10, 2020 20:31:18 GMT -6
I 100% agree with everything said there.
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Post by ilikeguard on Feb 11, 2020 22:57:42 GMT -6
This isn’t prelims to finals but prelims to semis.... DANG those prelims rankings were INSANE! The difference between that and the semis scores don’t fail to amaze me. Even if it had been set up like a normal prelims to finals scores, we would have the same finalists, but just look at 13-30! (I put their semis placement in parentheses) 13. Park Vista (16) 14. Centerville (20) 15. Fishers (13) 16. Harrison (15) 17. James F Byrnes (23) 18. Rockford (19) 19. Miamisburg (22) 20. MPLT (14) 21. Brownsburg (18) 22. Marian Catholic (17) 23. Lakota West (27) 24. Forest Hills (30) 25. North Hardin (21) 26. Jenison (26) 27. Lake Hamilton (32) 28. PCEP (24) 29. Ben Davis (28) 30. Panther Creek (25) Yeah... those are crazy. Too high (for me) - Centerville, Harrison, JFB, Miamisburg, Lakota West, Forest Hills, Lake Hamilton Too low - Fishers, MPLT, Brownsburg, Marian, North Hardin, PCEP, Panther Creek If you can’t tell, I SEVERELY disagree with prelims ranking. I think those judges were on something. The fact that Center Grove, Windermere(?!?), Independence, and Greendale were left out of semis should’ve told me that from the start. Ok. Anti-prelims judges rant over Windermere and Independence not making it in made me upset. I didn't see Independence's nats performance, but even based on their early season performance in Iowa (they were 8th in finals and SIXTH in prelims!!) there is no way they deserved a II. Update: Watched their show on youtube again, and if you're comparing this to the likes of Avon and Vandegrift of course they're a II. But they deserved better. It's a very entertaining show.
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Post by verysaxy on Feb 12, 2020 6:47:57 GMT -6
They should extend the amount of add ons to 5. It’s been a while (since Adair? I think Bourbon made it in the next 8 a while back) since a class A band has made semis on score, and it’s not right to only have 4 when there are 3 medalists... not saying it would’ve let Independence in (I had them in 34th!!!), but every other class has always had multiple bands make it on score... but that’s not the case for A (and AAA this year).
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Post by Allohak on Feb 12, 2020 7:08:07 GMT -6
They should extend the amount of add ons to 5. It’s been a while (since Adair? I think Bourbon made it in the next 8 a while back) since a class A band has made semis on score, and it’s not right to only have 4 when there are 3 medalists... not saying it would’ve let Independence in (I had them in 34th!!!), but every other class has always had multiple bands make it on score... but that’s not the case for A (and AAA this year). We need fewer class qualifiers, not more
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Post by dbalash on Feb 12, 2020 8:05:03 GMT -6
They should extend the amount of add ons to 5. It’s been a while (since Adair? I think Bourbon made it in the next 8 a while back) since a class A band has made semis on score, and it’s not right to only have 4 when there are 3 medalists... not saying it would’ve let Independence in (I had them in 34th!!!), but every other class has always had multiple bands make it on score... but that’s not the case for A (and AAA this year). 38 bands is already wayyyyyy too many for semifinals. I yearn for the days of top 11 Thursday, top 11 Friday, next 8, and maybe 4-5 extra bands. Hell, 2003 had 1 extra band.
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Post by verysaxy on Feb 12, 2020 20:38:02 GMT -6
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree I do think there should be no more than 40, but if things were still done the old way then we would have to have class awards based on prelims.
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