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Post by yayband914 on Dec 26, 2019 23:35:28 GMT -6
Seems like Clear Brook might be AAAA now with the most recent UIL information?
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Post by verysaxy on Dec 29, 2019 8:53:31 GMT -6
There may be some changes on the Kentucky scene:
North Hardin is always on the edge of AA/AAA. They have always been AA, but I wouldn’t be shocked if they move to AAA anytime now. Bourbon County switches between A/AA all the time, no year is any different Beechwood/Estill County could be expected to stay the same. Lafayette will probably still be AAA, but runout has it they have a large freshman class this year. Possible AAAA. If Lafayette moves up to AAAA, so would Henry Clay.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2020 20:16:06 GMT -6
I don’t know about any changes for the upcoming year but I can say that after they moved up for the 2019-20 season Harrison will likely be at 4A for a while after a few large freshman classes bumped them up from 1900 to 2400 total students in just a couple years
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Post by thewho on Jan 28, 2020 20:36:54 GMT -6
MOD MESSAGE: I went ahead and moved the recent 2020 posts from the previous Class Changes thread and into a new as the old Class Changes thread had its last post in Sept. 2019 before being revived in December. To avoid confusion, I went ahead and created a new thread to keep the two years (2019 and 2020) separate.
Happy discussing!
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Post by ilikeguard on Jan 28, 2020 22:42:45 GMT -6
There may be some changes on the Kentucky scene: North Hardin is always on the edge of AA/AAA. They have always been AA, but I wouldn’t be shocked if they move to AAA anytime now. Bourbon County switches between A/AA all the time, no year is any different Beechwood/Estill County could be expected to stay the same. Lafayette will probably still be AAA, but runout has it they have a large freshman class this year. Possible AAAA. If Lafayette moves up to AAAA, so would Henry Clay. North Hardin moving up would be a game changer for both AA and AAA. They can definitely compete with the latter.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Jan 28, 2020 22:51:54 GMT -6
There may be some changes on the Kentucky scene: North Hardin is always on the edge of AA/AAA. They have always been AA, but I wouldn’t be shocked if they move to AAA anytime now. Bourbon County switches between A/AA all the time, no year is any different Beechwood/Estill County could be expected to stay the same. Lafayette will probably still be AAA, but runout has it they have a large freshman class this year. Possible AAAA. If Lafayette moves up to AAAA, so would Henry Clay. I know it has been a long time now but North Hardin was in Class AAA from 1989 into the early 2000s, but yes they have been Class AA for a long time. I keep hearing that Adair County has been growing. I wonder if not this year, if at some point they may hit Class AA enrollment.
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Post by verysaxy on Jan 29, 2020 6:20:27 GMT -6
Unfortunately I don’t know if we’ll ever see Adair County back on the BOA Scene. It will be interesting and possibly likely to see them back to a regional, if were lucky. I don’t see Adair visiting nats again in the near future. That being said, Adair has been in AA before (I think) and if they did attend I believe they would do good things. And thank you for correcting me on North Hardin
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Post by thewho on Jan 29, 2020 7:40:18 GMT -6
There may be some changes on the Kentucky scene: North Hardin is always on the edge of AA/AAA. They have always been AA, but I wouldn’t be shocked if they move to AAA anytime now. Bourbon County switches between A/AA all the time, no year is any different Beechwood/Estill County could be expected to stay the same. Lafayette will probably still be AAA, but runout has it they have a large freshman class this year. Possible AAAA. If Lafayette moves up to AAAA, so would Henry Clay. Lafayette will be 100% AAA then. BOA doesn't count 9th grade in their school size population classification.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Jan 29, 2020 8:51:05 GMT -6
Unfortunately I don’t know if we’ll ever see Adair County back on the BOA Scene. It will be interesting and possibly likely to see them back to a regional, if were lucky. I don’t see Adair visiting nats again in the near future. That being said, Adair has been in AA before (I think) and if they did attend I believe they would do good things. And thank you for correcting me on North Hardin So what is going on with Adair? It would be a shame not to have this long time small school power in BOA anymore.
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Post by paddy on Jan 29, 2020 13:42:55 GMT -6
There may be some changes on the Kentucky scene: North Hardin is always on the edge of AA/AAA. They have always been AA, but I wouldn’t be shocked if they move to AAA anytime now. Bourbon County switches between A/AA all the time, no year is any different Beechwood/Estill County could be expected to stay the same. Lafayette will probably still be AAA, but runout has it they have a large freshman class this year. Possible AAAA. If Lafayette moves up to AAAA, so would Henry Clay. Lafayette will be 100% AAA then. BOA doesn't count 9th grade in their school size population classification. I took this to mean that the current (2019-20) freshman class is large so it could affect the 2020-21 classification because they would be sophomores then. However (as I have detailed) BOA counts are a mix of witchcraft and advantageous falsehoods.
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Post by verysaxy on Feb 9, 2020 10:43:02 GMT -6
Is it just me or should class be based off BAND size, not school size? I just can’t find it fair that, for example, Tarpon is a AA school but has a HUGE band because it’s an ARTS school. Other AA bands should have a shot at the championship too, and I don’t see why Tarpon is allowed to compete against other AA schools with that big of a band. Same with PCEP, they are AAAA but have the band size of a small AA school. They shouldn’t have to compete with Carmel, Avon, Hebron, etc. for a class championship. I’m not saying ditch the WHOLE system, but I think some things need to change because it’s sad when these directors have to tell kids that they’ll never win because they are competing against band 50, 60 even 70% larger than them. Thoughts?
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Post by Jake W. on Feb 9, 2020 14:28:33 GMT -6
Is it just me or should class be based off BAND size, not school size? I just can’t find it fair that, for example, Tarpon is a AA school but has a HUGE band because it’s an ARTS school. Other AA bands should have a shot at the championship too, and I don’t see why Tarpon is allowed to compete against other AA schools with that big of a band. Same with PCEP, they are AAAA but have the band size of a small AA school. They shouldn’t have to compete with Carmel, Avon, Hebron, etc. for a class championship. I’m not saying ditch the WHOLE system, but I think some things need to change because it’s sad when these directors have to tell kids that they’ll never win because they are competing against band 50, 60 even 70% larger than them. Thoughts? (mostly) Just you : ) Band size has been experimented with in various circuits, most notably for about two decades in Kentucky's state circuit (KMEA), and it was generally regarded as a failed classification system, which is why KMEA switched to school size eventually; lots of bands purposefully keeping their numbers low to remain in lower classes was the main problem, which is pretty antithetical to "music education". Unfortunately, since ISSMA (Indiana) incorporated their scholastic classes (based on both school and band size, as opposed to their open classes, which are just based off of school size) a few years back, I do suspect that more than a few bands have trimmed their numbers to remain in scholastic class, where said bands are often a viable competitor for a championship. MSBA (Mid-States Band Association), a circuit based in Ohio, classifies by band size, and to my knowledge, they've never had any issues. I do think that points to the idea that classification by band size DOES allow struggling or rebuilding programs a bit of respite, as that's the pool of Indiana & KY bands that MSBA typically draws. MBOS (Marching Band Open Series), which is a circuit that serves the Las Vegas groups and often draws SoCal groups, also classifies by band size. I have a fair number of people I graduated with who went on to teach in Vegas and no one seems to have a problem with classifying by band size out there. That's also a different beast, though; Vegas's 30+ high schools are all in the same district and are generally similar sizes, so school classification doesn't make as much sense. California's two major circuits, WBA & SCSBOA, still use band size, but California band circuits tend to cling to tradition heavily, and that's just the way they've always done it. I think Tennessee's Contest of Champions still goes by band size as well; that seems to be a little more common in old school university-sponsored band contests. The only other two circuits I know of that classifies by band size are FMBC & PIMBA. UIL, ISSMA Open Class, OBA, MCBA, ISU's "State Finals" contest in Illinois, KMEA, SCBDA, CBA, WSMA, etc. all use school size. No band should be punished for drawing a large number of students from a smaller school, especially when said smaller school often has less resources available for its band. Conversely, Plymouth-Canton's band draws from 3 high schools on a campus with more than 6,000 (!!!!) students. There's no other way to say it --- figure out how to get more than 150 kids on the field. They're drawing from over six thousand students. Come on. If their size is an issue relative to their fellow AAAA competitors (and I don't know if it is), then figure out how to get more kids in band. That's all there is to it.
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Post by Samuel Culper on Feb 9, 2020 15:29:42 GMT -6
In Texas, the TMEA uses the classifications that the UIL uses for all school sports and academic competitions. The UIL does not go strictly by enrollment for all magnet schools, though I don't know what the criteria are that they use. For the latest realignment, the class cutoffs are: 1A - 104.9 and below 2A - 205 - 229 3A - 230 - 514 4A - 515 - 1229 5A - 1230 - 2219 6A - 2220 and up But if you look at the rank order list here: realignment.uiltexas.org/alignments/2020/20-22_Rank.pdfYou will see a host of schools at the bottom of each classification that are below the cutoffs. In most cases, these are the magnet schools. Whatever class they are in here is what the TMEA will use for any UIL band competition. It seems like BoA could do something similar.
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Post by verysaxy on Feb 9, 2020 16:47:37 GMT -6
Not downing Ohio, but at this rate I would rather have OMEA than KMEA I just think magnet schools should be treated differently. Maybe I’m wrong, but I see why the system is how it is. My best example is Tarpon v. AA. I’ve heard that Tarpon mandatories marching band, and in an arts school that isn’t a problem to most students. That’s what they signed up for. Not all schools have almost every student decide to go there just for marching band. Oh well. I guess this system is better to keep bands from cutting down size to be in a different class.
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Post by paddy on Feb 9, 2020 17:00:54 GMT -6
In the school size/band size conversation Tarpon will be an outlier and about the only “small” school that immediately comes to mind that has an advantage. Being a fine arts magnet school in a HUGE school corporation (over 100k) is a distinct advantage over many other schools in BOA regardless of class.
With that said, one outlier doesn’t lead me to support a change to band size.
I guess an argument could be made that a magnet school should count all potential students in their enrollment. If they pull from a HS population of 8,000 kids then the enrollment is 8,000 kids and not what is actually in the school.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2020 18:02:48 GMT -6
doesn’t PCEP pull from three schools with 6,000+ total? idk if it’s counted in their enrollment but they are 4A still either way
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Post by Allohak on Feb 10, 2020 8:19:46 GMT -6
An idea that has been reworked over years of being around the activity:
Throw out the current classification system and do a total reset.
Each band is given points based on several factors. Points totals are static within each year, but are re-figured ahead of the first event each season.
Points awarded for school size (total student population eligible to participate), band size, consistent participation, and competitive success.
School size points are awarded 1-5: 1-500 students grades 9-12: 1 point 501-1250: 2 points 1251-2250: 3 points 2251-3500: 4 points 3501+: 5 points
Band size points are awarded 1-5: 1-30 students: 1 point 31-75: 2 points 76-125: 3 points 126-200: 4 points 201+: 5 points
Consistent participation points are awarded 1-5 based on participation in previous 4 seasons: No participation in circuit events: 1 point Average events per season 0-1 (rounded to nearest tenth): 2 points Average 1.1-2: 3 points Average 2.1-3: 4 points Average 3+: 5 points
Competitive success points are awarded individually based on performance in previous 4 seasons, including local circuit success: 1 point for making finals at a regional event (max 1) 1 point for winning a regional championship (max 1) 1 point for making Grand National semifinals (max 1) 1 point for making Grand National finals (max 1) 1 point for winning class championship at Grand Nationals (max 1) 1 point for winning Grand National championship (max 1) 1 point for making local circuit championship finals (max 1) 1 point for winning local circuit championship (whether split into classes or overall) (max 1)
Split the participation pool at any given event into 3 equal-size groups, call them Gold, Silver, and Bronze "classes" as placeholders. Each "class" performs consecutively for more accurate head-to-head comparison, except for at Grand National finals, where there is a full random draw for performance order.
Finals at all regional events, regardless of size, are made up of the top 3 from Bronze, top 4 from Silver, and top 5 from Gold. Semifinals at Grand Nationals is made up of the top 7 from Bronze, top 10 from Silver, and top 15 from Gold. Finals at Grand Nationals is made up of the Bronze champion, top 3 from Silver, and top 5 from Gold.
In this way, a group such as Tarpon Springs or Marian Catholic is competing against the other top groups at any given competition without punishing other groups' chances at success. Similarly, a Bourbon County will be up against reasonable competition instead of dominating their small-school class. A North Hardin might compete at Silver level, do well, and find themselves in Gold before long.
Most, if not all, of the national heavy-hitters will be in Gold at every event they attend. This gives up-and-coming groups more of a chance at seeing success propel them forward year-after-year by accumulating points over time.
Yes, within any given year it is possible for a band to compete in different classes, based on what groups are at each event.
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Post by paddy on Feb 10, 2020 11:05:23 GMT -6
Allohak, I am not going to quote you since that leads to huge blocks of repetitive text.
Can you run a couple of examples? Why change classifications at each contest? When you say local circuit, do you mean state level (ISSMA for example) competitions? I assume you don't mean winning a random invitational like a local contest in Fishers Indiana in September. Why limit success factor to 1 for a category? Did you think about averaging success over 4 years?
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Post by hewhowaits on Feb 10, 2020 11:41:59 GMT -6
Allohak, I am not going to quote you since that leads to huge blocks of repetitive text. Can you run a couple of examples? Why change classifications at each contest? When you say local circuit, do you mean state level (ISSMA for example) competitions? I assume you don't mean winning a random invitational like a local contest in Fishers Indiana in September. Why limit success factor to 1 for a category? Did you think about averaging success over 4 years? Not speaking for Allohak - giving my opinion on a couple of the questions. Why change classifications at each contest? Because different populations at each show can greatly affect the level of competition. Local circuit I suspect the reason he didn't say "state championships" is to account for organizations like MSBA and WBA. Why limit success factor to 1 for a category? I'll turn this one around - why would you punish a band for participating in more BOA shows? Limiting the success factor to one per category seems reasonable. An average over four years might be a good approach, but then you start getting into concerns about rounding.
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Post by paddy on Feb 10, 2020 11:51:29 GMT -6
Allohak, I am not going to quote you since that leads to huge blocks of repetitive text. Can you run a couple of examples? Why change classifications at each contest? When you say local circuit, do you mean state level (ISSMA for example) competitions? I assume you don't mean winning a random invitational like a local contest in Fishers Indiana in September. Why limit success factor to 1 for a category? Did you think about averaging success over 4 years? Not speaking for Allohak - giving my opinion on a couple of the questions. Why change classifications at each contest? Because different populations at each show can greatly affect the level of competition. Local circuit I suspect the reason he didn't say "state championships" is to account for organizations like MSBA and WBA. Why limit success factor to 1 for a category? I'll turn this one around - why would you punish a band for participating in more BOA shows? Limiting the success factor to one per category seems reasonable. An average over four years might be a good approach, but then you start getting into concerns about rounding. Different populations show up now and we don't adjust the classes. I prefer a system where you are in a class or you aren't. Local circuit was just too vague for me. I was asking for clarification. You already account for number of shows by averaging participation. In a system where you limit success you potentially put 2 different levels of success on similar footing. A school who makes finals once in a 4 year period is equal to a school who has made finals every year in the last 4. Yes, there are problems with bands who can't realistically make it every year, but 4 years of finals is more successful than 1 year in finals. It is a sticky situation. In Indiana HS sports, success is a rolling number and if the total adds to a certain level then you get bumped a sports class. Maybe that is a better solution...
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Post by MadScientist on Feb 10, 2020 11:52:33 GMT -6
Band size points are awarded 1-5: 2001+: 5 points 2001+ ?!? So...just Carmel...I guess?
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Post by Allohak on Feb 10, 2020 12:00:21 GMT -6
Allohak, I am not going to quote you since that leads to huge blocks of repetitive text. Can you run a couple of examples? Why change classifications at each contest? When you say local circuit, do you mean state level (ISSMA for example) competitions? I assume you don't mean winning a random invitational like a local contest in Fishers Indiana in September. Why limit success factor to 1 for a category? Did you think about averaging success over 4 years? Obviously most of the big boys would be unaffected. Your Carmel, Avon, Blue Springs, etc etc are still competing for titles. Where it helps is getting outliers to compete more directly with bands they are similar to. As an example, Norwin is a AA school, with a AA size band, but they have a sustained history of success, even against bigger schools and bigger bands. Due to their consistent participation and performance, they compete "up", opening the door for other smaller groups to get rewarded. I can run numbers on some groups, but don't have the time at the moment. Local circuit counts championships success, not invitationals or single contests. Vista Ridge winning UIL counts, as does Broken Arrow winning OBA, but Panther Creek winning Cary Band Day does not. Major contests like WCU or the Golden Regiment Invitational or similar may get consideration in lieu of a circuit championship. For the competitive success category, I kept it only counting 1 for each achievement in part to account for groups who can't frequently attend GN (any of the Texas bands, Tarpon, etc etc) without giving preference to those who can easily attend every year. American Fork coming once every few years and making semifinals every time gets the same credit as, say, Fishers for making semifinals within the last cycle. Even averaging across multiple years gave too much of a bonus to the midwestern groups.
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Post by Allohak on Feb 10, 2020 12:01:56 GMT -6
Band size points are awarded 1-5: 2001+: 5 points 2001+ ?!? So...just Carmel...I guess? Haha, oops 201+, of course
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Post by Allohak on Feb 10, 2020 12:05:04 GMT -6
Not speaking for Allohak - giving my opinion on a couple of the questions. Why change classifications at each contest? Because different populations at each show can greatly affect the level of competition. Local circuit I suspect the reason he didn't say "state championships" is to account for organizations like MSBA and WBA. Why limit success factor to 1 for a category? I'll turn this one around - why would you punish a band for participating in more BOA shows? Limiting the success factor to one per category seems reasonable. An average over four years might be a good approach, but then you start getting into concerns about rounding. Different populations show up now and we don't adjust the classes. I prefer a system where you are in a class or you aren't. Local circuit was just too vague for me. I was asking for clarification. You already account for number of shows by averaging participation. In a system where you limit success you potentially put 2 different levels of success on similar footing. A school who makes finals once in a 4 year period is equal to a school who has made finals every year in the last 4. Yes, there are problems with bands who can't realistically make it every year, but 4 years of finals is more successful than 1 year in finals. It is a sticky situation. In Indiana HS sports, success is a rolling number and if the total adds to a certain level then you get bumped a sports class. Maybe that is a better solution... Perhaps the competitive success points could be awarded binarily (1 yes or 0 no) averaged for years in which the band participated. Trouble there is it makes the math much more difficult than a simple 1 or 0.
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Post by paddy on Feb 10, 2020 12:23:55 GMT -6
It is difficult to account for success through the lens of "ability to attend". Of course I have always wondered if there is a "they don't get to attend every year and are usually really good, so we should reward them for showing up" scoring bump.
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Post by verysaxy on Feb 20, 2020 19:03:17 GMT -6
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Post by principalagent on Feb 20, 2020 20:36:33 GMT -6
That might be better for them. 3A is much less competitive (see 2019) than 2A I'd be careful about that. Leander, Dobyns-Bennett, Franklin, and Castle all readily sit in that class. Then there are groups that are on their way to their first trip or first return trip in a while (now or perhaps in the next few years) in the class like Rosemount, Bixby, SFA, Wakeland, Cedar Park, Lincoln, and Rouse. And you also have to consider that Blue Springs, Homestead, Vista Ridge, and a couple other notables toe the line.
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Post by dbalash on Feb 21, 2020 10:41:06 GMT -6
According to publicschoolreview.com, there's only 139 kids PK-8, with the largest classes being PK and 2nd grade.
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Post by paddy on Feb 21, 2020 10:58:36 GMT -6
According to publicschoolreview.com, there's only 139 kids PK-8, with the largest classes being PK and 2nd grade. Using the State of Kentucky Enrollment Data (https://education.ky.gov/districts/enrol/Pages/Superintendents-Annual-Attendance-Report-(SAAR).aspx) 2018-19 Enrollment 9 - 470 10 - 453 11 - 400 12 - 346 10-12 = 1199 If you age that 1 year to reflect 19-20 enrollment 9 - Tough to tell as the Middle Schools are split 10 - 470 11 - 453 12 - 400 10-12 = 1323 Now I have not been particularly shy about my take on this, but given the numbers above (barring any major redistricting), North Hardin should have competed as a AAA school in the fall of 2019. Also, barring an unforeseen change in the 2018-19 8th grade class, there is a pretty good chance they would stay AAA for a couple of years. Again, enrollment numbers are a mix of witchcraft and advantageous falsehoods.
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Post by principalagent on Feb 21, 2020 20:55:11 GMT -6
Pretty much all schools melt about 5-10% or so each class, each year. It’s probably very likely North Hardin still fell under the cut off.
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