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Post by Allohak on Feb 26, 2020 11:31:57 GMT -6
Starting this fall, regional finals will be increased from 10 to 12.
Super regionals remain at 14, and GN remains at 12.
Will be announced tomorrow, but already-enrolled directors received an email today with the information.
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Post by dbalash on Feb 26, 2020 12:32:19 GMT -6
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Post by lostchoirguy on Feb 26, 2020 13:30:31 GMT -6
Is this a leap year fools or something? Haha
While I love the idea for some of the more competitive regionals, it seems unnecessary for most.
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Post by jeremiah on Feb 26, 2020 13:53:22 GMT -6
more bands in finals, more ticket sales
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Post by paddy on Feb 26, 2020 14:00:30 GMT -6
more bands in finals, more ticket sales More bands receiving quality feedback in a competitive environment. If you aren't in a good area for local competitions it may be your only time to get good critique from quality judges. There is a reason schools like Centerville travel to Indiana for invitationals and hit multiple BOA regionals. There local circuits don't fulfill that need.
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Post by hewhowaits on Feb 26, 2020 14:13:10 GMT -6
more bands in finals, more ticket sales More bands receiving quality feedback in a competitive environment. If you aren't in a good area for local competitions it may be your only time to get good critique from quality judges. There is a reason schools like Centerville travel to Indiana for invitationals and hit multiple BOA regionals. There local circuits don't fulfill that need. MSBA sheets are more similar to BOA than those used by ISSMA. And ask any of your fellow Hoosiers about the "quality" of judging in Indiana.
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Post by FaultLineBlues on Feb 26, 2020 14:13:23 GMT -6
I'm not hugely against the idea. While yes, it makes getting into finals a little easier, and makes finals itself take a longer time to get through, more bands will get to perform, and some students will get to experience finals even if they didn't get the chance to in past years. Nothing is actively being taken away and the competitive nature within finals itself still stands. I'm interested to see how it goes.
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Post by notinband on Feb 26, 2020 14:36:21 GMT -6
I actually like the change. But the number of bands in Finals should be based on the overall number of bands participating in the Regional. Under a set standardized number, stay with 10. Over, increase the number to 12.
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Post by thewho on Feb 26, 2020 15:14:52 GMT -6
More bands receiving quality feedback in a competitive environment. If you aren't in a good area for local competitions it may be your only time to get good critique from quality judges. There is a reason schools like Centerville travel to Indiana for invitationals and hit multiple BOA regionals. There local circuits don't fulfill that need. MSBA sheets are more similar to BOA than those used by ISSMA. And ask any of your fellow Hoosiers about the "quality" of judging in Indiana. ISSMA =/= invitational judging. The invitational judging fluctuates between ISSMA and BOA, but tend to be reliable with some stacked judging lineups.
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Post by cinnamonpromenade on Feb 26, 2020 16:34:08 GMT -6
I think this is a special opportunity for three different populations:
1. Bubble bands that travel far distances to the regional closest to them 2. Bubble bands whose closest regional has attracted top-tier bands from faraway 3. Texas bubble bands whose closest regional are flooded with San Antonio finals-caliber bands
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Looking at 2019, here are some good cases for each scenario:
1. Bubble bands that travel far distances to the regional closest to them
BOA WASHINGTON D.C. PRELIMS: 9. 69.70 Cicero-North Syracuse, NY (375 mi, 6 hr drive) 10. 69.65 John P. Stevens, NJ 11. 69.45 James W. Robinson, VA 12. 69.35 Wakefield, MA (450 mi, 7.5 hr drive)
BOA ST. GEORGE PRELIMS: 9. 82.32 Desert Vista, AZ (450 mi, 7 hr drive) 10. 81.90 Farmington, UT 11. 80.85 Central Valley, WA (1000 mi, 15 hr drive) 12. 80.07 Buchanan, CA (500 mi, 8 hr drive)
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2. Bubble bands whose closest regional has attracted top-tier bands from faraway
BOA LOUISVILLE PRELIMS: 1. Carmel, IN … 5. Franklin, TN 6. Fort Zumwalt North, MO … 10. DeSoto Central, MS 11. Central Hardin, KY 12. Murray, KY
BOA ORLANDO PRELIMS: 1. Broken Arrow, OK 2. Tarpon Springs, FL 3. Wando, SC … 10. Brownsburg, IN 11. Gainesville, FL 12. Sunlake, FL
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3. Texas bubble bands whose closest regional are flooded with San Antonio finals-caliber bands
BOA HOUSTON PRELIMS: 1. Ronald Reagan 2. Westwood 3. The Woodlands 4. Westlake … 7. Pearland … 11. Obra D. Tompkins 12. Seven Lakes
BOA WACO PRELIMS: 1. James Bowie 2. Keller 3. Waxahachie 4. James Martin … 11. Lake Ridge 12. WE Boswell
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Ultimately, yes, we don't want competitions to be watered down to the point where there's no prestige in earning a finalist spot.
That being said, given how the vast majority of bands attend one, MAYBE two BOA events per season, it needs to be worth their while. Being named a finalist tells your school district that your increased costs for design, instruction, and competition are justified.
Plus, becoming a finalist can give your kids the boost to keep working as hard as they can. Yes, the hard work *should* be its own reward, but competitive success is great motivation, too. I wonder how many big-name band programs over the years have fizzled out because they failed to maintain competitive momentum.
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Post by ilikeguard on Feb 26, 2020 19:53:25 GMT -6
More friends to make at retreat 😃
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Post by turfday on Feb 26, 2020 22:26:53 GMT -6
meaningless data mostly but gives us some insight into what types of bands we could see in finals next year lots of unknowns and first timers could hop in and feel happy and more willing to show up to boa after a finals stint seems like boa is playing the long game growing interest in boa by letting more bands get that finals experience and create stronger programs that are willing to hop into and compete at boa shows over others its all a ploy to create a bigger pool of boa bands and maybe expand grand nats numbers in the longer run
McAllen: 11th San Benito H.S TX (68.50) 12th Robert Vela H.S, TX (67.80)
==================== Louisville: 11th Central Hardin H.S, KY (68.60) 12th Murray H.S , KY (68.00) ====================== Toledo: 11th Victor H.S, NY (63.10) 12th DeWitt H.S, MI (61.55)
===================== Cedar Falls: 11th Morton H.S., IL (70.50) 12th Eastview H.S, MN (70.35)
===================== Columbus: 11th South Point H.S , OH 63.10) 12th Walter E. Stebbins H.S , OH (62.60)
===================== Flagstaff: 11th William Fields H.S , AZ (65.10) 12th Sierra Vista H.S., NV (64.97 =====================
Austin: 11th Round Rock, TX (73.90) 12th Hendrickson, TX (72.20) ===================== Muncie: 11th Franklin Central H.S , IN (68.30) 12th Campbell County H.S, KY (68.20) ===================== Washington D.C.: 11th James W. Robinson H.S., VA (69.45) 12th Wakefield H.S, MA (69.35)
===================== Bedford:
[11th place Waxahachie Made Finals Due To Owasso Dropping Out] 12th Carroll H.S, TX (76.72) 13th Prosper H.S, TX (75.65) ===================== Houston: 11th Obra D. Tompkins , TX )79.93) 12th Seven Lakes , TX (79.80) ===================== Midland: 11th Hobbs , NM (70.75) 12th Frenship, TX ( 70.20) ===================== Johnson City: 11th: Hardin Valley Academy, TN (77.70) 12th Seymour H.S, TN (76.90) ===================== Orlando: 11th: Gainesville H.S, FL (70.20) 12th Sunlake H.S, FL (69.05) ===================== Waco: 11th Lake Ridge, TX (75.65) 12th WE Boswell (74.70) ===================== Lynchburg: 11th Rock Ridge H.S. , VA (75.75) 12th Thomas Jefferson H.S, VA (75.35) ===================== Powder Springs [Finals Cancelled] 11th Hillgrove H.S, GA (73.00) 12th Pelham H.S, GA (72.95) ===================== Bakersfield All Bands Made Finals Due To Only Nine Attending ===================== St George: Central Valley H.S, WA (80.85) Buchanan H.S, CA (80.07)
=====================
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 22:44:46 GMT -6
12th Pelham H.S, GA (72.95) =====================
Pelham is AL
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Post by yayband914 on Feb 27, 2020 10:36:11 GMT -6
meaningless data mostly but gives us some insight into what types of bands we could see in finals next year lots of unknowns and first timers could hop in and feel happy and more willing to show up to boa after a finals stint seems like boa is playing the long game growing interest in boa by letting more bands get that finals experience and create stronger programs that are willing to hop into and compete at boa shows over others its all a ploy to create a bigger pool of boa bands and maybe expand grand nats numbers in the longer run McAllen: 11th San Benito H.S TX (68.50) 12th Robert Vela H.S, TX (67.80) ==================== Louisville: 11th Central Hardin H.S, KY (68.60) 12th Murray H.S , KY (68.00) ====================== Toledo: 11th Victor H.S, NY (63.10) 12th DeWitt H.S, MI (61.55) ===================== Cedar Falls: 11th Morton H.S., IL (70.50) 12th Eastview H.S, MN (70.35) ===================== Columbus: 11th South Point H.S , OH 63.10) 12th Walter E. Stebbins H.S , OH (62.60) ===================== Flagstaff: 11th William Fields H.S , AZ (65.10) 12th Sierra Vista H.S., NV (64.97 ===================== Austin: 11th Round Rock, TX (73.90) 12th Hendrickson, TX (72.20) ===================== Muncie: 11th Franklin Central H.S , IN (68.30) 12th Campbell County H.S, KY (68.20) ===================== Washington D.C.: 11th James W. Robinson H.S., VA (69.45) 12th Wakefield H.S, MA (69.35) ===================== Bedford: [11th place Waxahachie Made Finals Due To Owasso Dropping Out] 12th Carroll H.S, TX (76.72) 13th Prosper H.S, TX (75.65) ===================== Houston: 11th Obra D. Tompkins , TX )79.93) 12th Seven Lakes , TX (79.80) ===================== Midland: 11th Hobbs , NM (70.75) 12th Frenship, TX ( 70.20) ===================== Johnson City: 11th: Hardin Valley Academy, TN (77.70) 12th Seymour H.S, TN (76.90) ===================== Orlando: 11th: Gainesville H.S, FL (70.20) 12th Sunlake H.S, FL (69.05) ===================== Waco: 11th Lake Ridge, TX (75.65) 12th WE Boswell (74.70) ===================== Lynchburg: 11th Rock Ridge H.S. , VA (75.75) 12th Thomas Jefferson H.S, VA (75.35) ===================== Powder Springs [Finals Cancelled] 11th Hillgrove H.S, GA (73.00) 12th Pelham H.S, GA (72.95) ===================== Bakersfield All Bands Made Finals Due To Only Nine Attending ===================== St George: Central Valley H.S, WA (80.85) Buchanan H.S, CA (80.07) ===================== This is great! Thank you for taking the time to do this. Also, at Toledo all bands advanced to finals as well!
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Post by marimba11 on Feb 27, 2020 13:12:18 GMT -6
I’m okay with the rule change. I think bands that only attend one regional and may travel very far for it should have more of a chance to play twice. I also am a fan of anything that will shake up the top 5 bottom 5 law, (now top 6 bottom 6).
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Post by hewhowaits on Feb 27, 2020 13:33:42 GMT -6
I’m okay with the rule change. I think bands that only attend one regional and may travel very far for it should have more of a chance to play twice. I also am a fan of anything that will shake up the top 5 bottom 5 law, (now top 6 bottom 6). The only way I see this happening would be to have the TOP half from prelims perform as the FIRST half of finals. Even then, who knows how much things would change.
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Post by principalagent on Feb 27, 2020 14:04:09 GMT -6
I’m okay with the rule change. I think bands that only attend one regional and may travel very far for it should have more of a chance to play twice. I also am a fan of anything that will shake up the top 5 bottom 5 law, (now top 6 bottom 6). The only way I see this happening would be to have the TOP half from prelims perform as the FIRST half of finals. Even then, who knows how much things would change. Yeah, going top 6 bottom 6 will just create a gap between 6 and 7 instead of 5 and 6. My thought is that BOA should randomize within groups of 3 or 4, like in DCI.
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Post by jeremiah on Feb 27, 2020 18:00:36 GMT -6
The only way I see this happening would be to have the TOP half from prelims perform as the FIRST half of finals. Even then, who knows how much things would change. Yeah, going top 6 bottom 6 will just create a gap between 6 and 7 instead of 5 and 6. My thought is that BOA should randomize within groups of 3 or 4, like in DCI. I don't think drawing in 3s would happen, but I would love to see top 4 middle 4 bottom 4 draw for finals. Would definitely make it easier for bands to forecast finals performance times. bottom 4 perform from 7–8, middle 4 from 8–9, top 4 from 9–10.
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Post by thewho on Feb 27, 2020 19:23:27 GMT -6
How about just randomize it? That would solve all of our issues with it. And actually practical too. It used to be, but then Hebron went on 1st at GN Finals despite winning GN semis. That ended up being the catalyst for change.
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Post by Samuel Culper on Feb 27, 2020 20:08:29 GMT -6
How about just randomize it? That would solve all of our issues with it. And actually practical too. Recency bias is too strong and really unavoidable. Just ask Hebron.
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Post by turfday on Feb 27, 2020 20:15:05 GMT -6
Hebron could have arguably won (or at least placed higher than third) with a later performance time. It absolutely killed them. Their show was outstanding, one of a kind. Going first hit them incredibly hard.
That’s what made BOA realize randomness wasn’t always key. Stronger bands deserve to go near the end of the schedule and if a band is truly strong they’ll clench a top half spot despite placing bottom half in prelims (much like Dobyns-Bennet in 2017)
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Post by Allohak on Feb 28, 2020 7:04:16 GMT -6
Having a split of any kind breaks the bands into groupings for the judges and makes it very difficult for those groupings to change. I've disliked the top/bottom split since they introduced it and would be 100% in favor of returning to full randomization.
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Post by thewho on Feb 28, 2020 7:42:27 GMT -6
I'm in favor of randomization as long as the top 3-4 are not guaranteed to perform in first 5 spots or something. It's free-for-all for the others.
I'm okay with the split, but I greatly dislike how it introduces bias into judging.
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Post by turfday on Feb 28, 2020 8:07:35 GMT -6
We shouldn’t go back to full randomization. It’ll turn into another Hebron situation.
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Post by Samuel Culper on Feb 28, 2020 8:55:37 GMT -6
I'm in favor of randomization as long as the top 3-4 are not guaranteed to perform in first 5 spots or something. It's free-for-all for the others. I'm okay with the split, but I greatly dislike how it introduces bias into judging. It does introduce bias, but it's an effort to offset the recency bias that is just human nature. That is precisely why I think it's smart.
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Post by thewho on Feb 28, 2020 9:20:52 GMT -6
I'm in favor of randomization as long as the top 3-4 are not guaranteed to perform in first 5 spots or something. It's free-for-all for the others. I'm okay with the split, but I greatly dislike how it introduces bias into judging. It does introduce bias, but it's an effort to offset the recency bias that is just human nature. That is precisely why I think it's smart. Absolutely. I would prefer this scenario over the chance of a potential champion going on first.
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Post by Subito Fortissimo on Feb 28, 2020 22:09:21 GMT -6
Just throwing out another idea...
Have the bottom 6 draw for spots 1-9 and the top 6 draw for spots 4-12. That way the first three spots are guaranteed bottom 6 and the last three spots are guaranteed top 6 bands. Unlikely that a potential champion would go on in the first three spots and finals would finish with bands more likely to contend to win, but still give some variation where First place might go on 4th and Twelfth place might go on 9th. This should still work if the draw is done at check-in, too.
IIRC GN Finals when fully random has been won from as early as the 2nd slot. So going 4th wouldn't itself doom a band that won prelims.
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Post by kvbrass on Feb 29, 2020 10:47:55 GMT -6
I think it’s a great idea especially given some of the razor thin margins that happen. When more bands get a chance to move on it doesn’t make the top less competitive. Also with the distance that some bands have to go to compete in any BOA event more bands might be more willing to try if they feel this gives them a better shot of getting two performances. It’s gotta be hard to justify spending 10,000+ to perform for 10 minutes once
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Post by boahistorybuff on Feb 29, 2020 11:56:10 GMT -6
I actually like the change. But the number of bands in Finals should be based on the overall number of bands participating in the Regional. Under a set standardized number, stay with 10. Over, increase the number to 12. I tend to agree with this. Say 24 or less participating bands, go with a top 10. For over 24, go for a top 12. Yes keep super regionals at 14. Having more than 14 bands in any finals is way too long a night. Not that my opinion matters.
And for the San Antonio Super Mega Regional, perhaps BOA should indeed start thinking of a semi finals format.
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Post by marimba11 on Mar 2, 2020 18:04:03 GMT -6
No way Hebron should have won in 2015 anyway, BA was too strong visually and they definitely had the best designed show there IMO. Wasn’t it LD bell who won from performing 2nd? The judges are smart. With that said I’m fine with top half bottom half, but no more groupings than that please. I’m also fine with Subito Fortissimo’s rule if anyone wants to pitch that to MFA Reagan 2017 was the other band who jumped from 9th to 5th at SA. An epic and well deserved jump.
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