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Post by jeremiah on Oct 15, 2021 10:35:52 GMT -6
Site will be updated shortly with this week's rankings, but here's an early peak for the dedicated fans on the forums.
1. Vandegrift, TX (2)
2. Ronald Reagan, TX (1)
3. Avon, IN (3)
4. The Woodlands, TX (4)
5. Broken Arrow, OK (5)
6. Carmel, IN (6)
7. Flower Mound, TX (10)
8. Claudia Taylor Johnson, TX (7)
9. Hebron, TX (8)
10. Tarpon Springs, FL (9)
11. Marcus, TX (11)
12. Blue Springs, MO (12)
13. William Mason, OH (13)
14. Vista Ridge, TX (14)
15. Cedar Park, TX (17)
16. Cedar Ridge, TX (16)
17. Wando, SC (15)
18. Castle, IN (19)
19. Leander, TX (21)
20. Homestead, IN (20)
21. Rouse, TX (18)
22. Round Rock, TX (22)
23. Dobyns-Bennett, TN (23)
24. O'Fallon Township, IL (24)
25. Fishers, IN (27)
26. Keller, TX (30)
27. Pearland, TX (28)
28. Westlake, TX (26)
29. Lincoln-Way, IL (29)
30. Coppell, TX (unranked)
31. LD Bell, TX (31)
32. Cypress Woods, TX (First Out)
First Out: James Bowie, TX (32)
Next 10, in alphabetical order: American Fork (UT), Ayala (CA), Brownsburg (IN), Camdenton (MO), Chino Hills (CA), Jenks (OK), Klein Oak (TX), Rosemount (MN), Seven Lakes (TX), and Westwood (TX).
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Post by cp823 on Oct 15, 2021 11:45:31 GMT -6
Wouldn’t it be awesome to see all these groups at one show? Just a random wishful thought.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Oct 15, 2021 11:49:42 GMT -6
Wouldn’t it be awesome to see all these groups at one show? Just a random wishful thought. What an amazing thought but It would also be phenomenal if the top 100 bands actually competed at GN’s yearly! One can only dream. 😴 |
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Post by bandfans on Oct 15, 2021 11:50:55 GMT -6
Hello!
I'm new here and I have a question. In determining overall rank, are BOA competitions given more weight than local shows such as the Texas Marching Classic?
Thanks!
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Post by hostrauser on Oct 15, 2021 12:01:39 GMT -6
Hello! I'm new here and I have a question. In determining overall rank, are BOA competitions given more weight than local shows such as the Texas Marching Classic? Thanks! Each voter uses their own criteria, but I can say that on my weekly ballot, yes, BOA competitions are given more weight. |
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Post by 70sguardchick on Oct 15, 2021 12:22:08 GMT -6
Homestead, Carmel and Brownsburg go head-to-head in one Indiana state regional tomorrow, and Avon, Fishers and Castle meet up at the other regional. Should be an exciting day!!!
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Post by lostchoirguy on Oct 15, 2021 12:33:57 GMT -6
Wouldn’t it be awesome to see all these groups at one show? Just a random wishful thought. What an amazing thought but It would also be phenomenal if the top 100 bands actually competed at GN’s yearly! One can only dream. 😴 Considering more than half of the bands are from Texas, it would make more logistical sense for the other groups to come to Texas  |
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Post by bandfans on Oct 15, 2021 12:38:25 GMT -6
I'm a Bowie parent so obviously partial. But why would Bowie continue to drop in the top 32 when they are scoring higher (83.125) in finals at the TMC than many of the groups ranking ahead of them? It couldn't be a matter of who they were competing against (Vandy, Reagan, CTJ, Cedar Park, Leander etc) as some of the very best were there (?) With that score, Bowie would have placed 4th overall at the BOA Dallas show on that same day, beating Keller, Coppell, LD Bell and other bands ranked higher on the top 32 list. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how this all shakes out.
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2021 13:10:40 GMT -6
I'm a Bowie parent so obviously partial. But why would Bowie continue to drop in the top 32 when they are scoring higher (83.125) in finals at the TMC than many of the groups ranking ahead of them? It couldn't be a matter of who they were competing against (Vandy, Reagan, CTJ, Cedar Park, Leander etc) as some of the very best were there (?) With that score, Bowie would have placed 4th overall at the BOA Dallas show on that same day, beating Keller, Coppell, LD Bell and other bands ranked higher on the top 32 list. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how this all shakes out. Thanks! I'm a long-time lurker, but this is my first post. I have watched these rankings over the years, and it seems to me that the algorithm used weighs BOA the heaviest, and it seems to take into account past performance at BOA events and current performance at BOA events into consideration first and then other competitions second. Also, I think some of the other competitions may not even be considered in the weekly rank. I also think it weighs Super-Regional BOA and Grand National BOA ranks more than other BOA events. Now, this is purely my take and could be completely wrong. |
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Post by hewhowaits on Oct 15, 2021 13:53:32 GMT -6
I'm a Bowie parent so obviously partial. But why would Bowie continue to drop in the top 32 when they are scoring higher (83.125) in finals at the TMC than many of the groups ranking ahead of them? It couldn't be a matter of who they were competing against (Vandy, Reagan, CTJ, Cedar Park, Leander etc) as some of the very best were there (?) With that score, Bowie would have placed 4th overall at the BOA Dallas show on that same day, beating Keller, Coppell, LD Bell and other bands ranked higher on the top 32 list. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how this all shakes out. Thanks! I'm a long-time lurker, but this is my first post. I have watched these rankings over the years, and it seems to me that the algorithm used weighs BOA the heaviest, and it seems to take into account past performance at BOA events and current performance at BOA events into consideration first and then other competitions second. Also, I think some of the other competitions may not even be considered in the weekly rank. I also think it weighs Super-Regional BOA and Grand National BOA ranks more than other BOA events. Now, this is purely my take and could be completely wrong. There is no "algorithm" that determines these rankings. They are a composite of the individual rankings of a number of very knowledgeable individuals (I am not a contributor). It is essentially a poll and each voter uses his or her own methodology to arrive at their individual rankings. In many cases, it is not just about "who beat who at which contest." These folks spend many hours watching videos of performances (live and otherwise) and assessing the information available about each show to arrive at their rankings. Regulars on the forums (both here and the old BOA forums) know that I often disagree with the contents of the weekly rankings. To a certain extent, that disagreement can be chalked up to individual preferences (and even biases) on my part. What I do not disagree with is the effort and dedication put into creating them. |
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Post by abtwitch on Oct 15, 2021 13:57:53 GMT -6
Very surprised Bentonville didn't even make the next 10 after their fantastic showing at the Renegade Review.
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Post by jeremiah on Oct 15, 2021 13:59:31 GMT -6
Very surprised Bentonville didn't even make the next 10 after their fantastic showing at the Renegade Review. Me too! They were incredibly close — just one spot away from the Next 10. I'm excited to see what they pull off at St. Louis. I wouldn't be shocked to see a top half finish. |
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Post by turfday on Oct 15, 2021 14:26:28 GMT -6
Why is Homestead so high?
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Post by bandfans on Oct 15, 2021 14:56:06 GMT -6
I'm certainly not questioning any contributors dedication to the activity. I try to look at the rankings like all the kids in the bands do. I look at the scores from the shows, all judged by people highly trained and experienced on how to award points fairly, and do the math. The math doesn't add up correctly in the top 32 rankings when compared to the scores given each band. If this is a truly fair and impartial ranking system, why not just rank all the bands by averaging all their given scores?
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Post by hostrauser on Oct 15, 2021 15:00:34 GMT -6
I'm a Bowie parent so obviously partial. But why would Bowie continue to drop in the top 32 when they are scoring higher (83.125) in finals at the TMC than many of the groups ranking ahead of them? It couldn't be a matter of who they were competing against (Vandy, Reagan, CTJ, Cedar Park, Leander etc) as some of the very best were there (?) With that score, Bowie would have placed 4th overall at the BOA Dallas show on that same day, beating Keller, Coppell, LD Bell and other bands ranked higher on the top 32 list. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how this all shakes out. Thanks! You can't directly compare scores from two different competitions, especially when one is a BOA show and the other is not. But I'll show you the sort of thing I take into consideration when comparing scores... At the TMC, Ronald Reagan scored 89.675 in Finals and James Bowie scored 83.250, which is 92.835% of Ronald Reagan's score. Now, at the BOA Katy Regional, Ronald Reagan scored 87.40. If we use that same 92.835% ratio, we get an estimated score of 81.138 for James Bowie at Katy. Let's double-check this another way. Take Vandegrift's margin over Ronald Reagan at TMC (101.185%) and apply it to Reagan's score at BOA Katy (87.40 x 1.01185) and we get an estimate of 88.436 for Vandegrift had they competed at BOA Katy. At BOA Austin, Vandegrift scored 83.675 in Prelims and James Bowie scored 76.650 (91.604%). Apply that 91.604% ratio to Vandegrift's estimate of 88.436 and we have a SECOND estimated score of 81.011 for Bowie at Katy. 81.011 and 81.138. Pretty consistent. So we'll use the higher estimate. Also at Katy, Cypress Falls scored 75.80. CyFalls was the only band who competed at both BOA Katy and BOA Dallas. Using Bowie's guesstimated score of 81.138, we get a ratio of 107.042% for Bowie over Cypress Falls. Now, at BOA Dallas, Cypress Falls' score fell to 71.60. They got absolutely tanked by two visual judges. But even if we compensate for that and add, let's say three points, to Cypress Falls' score at BOA Dallas, you're still looking at this equation: - 74.60 (Cypress Falls' adjusted score) x 1.07042 (Bowie over CyFalls ratio) = 79.853 (James Bowie's estimated BOA Dallas score)
That 79.853 would have been behind Coppell and Keller and just barely ahead of L.D. Bell.
It's just an estimate. But comparing "common opponents" from different shows, it becomes apparent that BOA Dallas and the Texas Marching Classic were not on the same scale. Coppell, Keller, and L.D. Bell would have likely scored HIGHER had they competed at TMC, and Vandegrift, Reagan, CTJ, Bowie, et al. would have likely scored LOWER had they been competing at BOA Dallas.
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Post by jeremiah on Oct 15, 2021 15:05:12 GMT -6
I'm certainly not questioning any contributors dedication to the activity. I try to look at the rankings like all the kids in the bands do. I look at the scores from the shows, all judged by people highly trained and experienced on how to award points fairly, and do the math. The math doesn't add up correctly in the top 32 rankings when compared to the scores given each band. If this is a truly fair and impartial ranking system, why not just rank all the bands by averaging all their given scores? I do wish you could directly compare scores from one contest to another, but unfortunately getting an 83 at one show, doesn't necessarily mean that band would have scored higher than a band that got an 82 at another show. Judges first priority is to rank the bands correctly and create appropriate spreads between groups. While there are reference points on the judging sheets and specific criteria bands must meet to score in a certain range, the numbers are really most helpful when looking at the spreads between groups at the same contest. A pair of bands that are a half point apart at the same show is likely a pair of bands that could have swapped places if they competed again the next day with a different panel of judges. When the gaps grow to be more than a point, the judges are saying that there are things Group A is doing that make them definitively better than Group B. Sometime judges disagree and so the scores average out to be about the same. Sometimes one group is much stronger musically and another group is much stronger visually and so the scores average out to be about the same. If one show has a lot of groups that are on a pretty equal level, the judges may push scores up a little higher to give themselves more space within the numbers to show gaps between groups. If another show has very clear separation between a couple of groups the judges may not need as much space in the numbers and may result in the winning band not scoring as high as they would at another show. Why give a group an 89 when second place is at an 82. An 85 still shows there are significant differences in the level of performance. I'm not sure if we've every claimed the rankings are truly fair or impartial, just like the adjudication process at any competition. What we are trying to do is piece together the best consensus opinion of what might happen if all of the groups competed head-to-head at the same event. |
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Post by bandfans on Oct 15, 2021 15:29:24 GMT -6
Thanks for all your replies and insights. I am learning something here!. So, does the first group to perform at any given contest sort of set the beginning mark or range in the adjudication process? I ask because James Bowie has been randomly chosen to perform first in the finals group at their last 4 contests (the mathematical odds of which are astronomical). Do the rankers at Hornrank take HIGHLY UNUSUAL things like this into consideration when ranking? I know the math may not bear it out, but to me it does seem to be a competitive disadvantage to have to perform first at any show.
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Post by Samuel Culper on Oct 15, 2021 15:38:37 GMT -6
I'm a Bowie parent so obviously partial. But why would Bowie continue to drop in the top 32 when they are scoring higher (83.125) in finals at the TMC than many of the groups ranking ahead of them? It couldn't be a matter of who they were competing against (Vandy, Reagan, CTJ, Cedar Park, Leander etc) as some of the very best were there (?) With that score, Bowie would have placed 4th overall at the BOA Dallas show on that same day, beating Keller, Coppell, LD Bell and other bands ranked higher on the top 32 list. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how this all shakes out. Thanks! You can't directly compare scores from two different competitions, especially when one is a BOA show and the other is not. But I'll show you the sort of thing I take into consideration when comparing scores... At the TMC, Ronald Reagan scored 89.675 in Finals and James Bowie scored 83.250, which is 92.835% of Ronald Reagan's score. Now, at the BOA Katy Regional, Ronald Reagan scored 87.40. If we use that same 92.835% ratio, we get an estimated score of 81.138 for James Bowie at Katy. Let's double-check this another way. Take Vandegrift's margin over Ronald Reagan at TMC (101.185%) and apply it to Reagan's score at BOA Katy (87.40 x 1.01185) and we get an estimate of 88.436 for Vandegrift had they competed at BOA Katy. At BOA Austin, Vandegrift scored 83.675 in Prelims and James Bowie scored 76.650 (91.604%). Apply that 91.604% ratio to Vandegrift's estimate of 88.436 and we have a SECOND estimated score of 81.011 for Bowie at Katy. 81.011 and 81.138. Pretty consistent. So we'll use the higher estimate. Also at Katy, Cypress Falls scored 75.80. CyFalls was the only band who competed at both BOA Katy and BOA Dallas. Using Bowie's guesstimated score of 81.138, we get a ratio of 107.042% for Bowie over Cypress Falls. Now, at BOA Dallas, Cypress Falls' score fell to 71.60. They got absolutely tanked by two visual judges. But even if we compensate for that and add, let's say three points, to Cypress Falls' score at BOA Dallas, you're still looking at this equation: - 74.60 (Cypress Falls' adjusted score) x 1.07042 (Bowie over CyFalls ratio) = 79.853 (James Bowie's estimated BOA Dallas score)
That 79.853 would have been behind Coppell and Keller and just barely ahead of L.D. Bell.
It's just an estimate. But comparing "common opponents" from different shows, it becomes apparent that BOA Dallas and the Texas Marching Classic were not on the same scale. Coppell, Keller, and L.D. Bell would have likely scored HIGHER had they competed at TMC, and Vandegrift, Reagan, CTJ, Bowie, et al. would have likely scored LOWER had they been competing at BOA Dallas.
Now, can you explain all that again via interpretive dance? |
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Post by sethb811 on Oct 15, 2021 15:53:57 GMT -6
Why is Homestead so high? I guess making Grand National Finals 5 out of the last 6 years doesn't count for anything. |
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Post by Marching Observer on Oct 15, 2021 16:04:35 GMT -6
Why is Homestead so high? I guess making Grand National Finals 5 out of the last 6 years doesn't count for anything. Not to mention incredible consistency. Go back through their rankings through the years and it's almost always been around this range. |
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 15, 2021 16:26:44 GMT -6
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Post by Marching Observer on Oct 15, 2021 16:32:27 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure he meant high as in up in the rankings. Not high as in number. But it is always a safe bet to blame him all the same 😜🙃 |
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 15, 2021 16:33:51 GMT -6
You can't directly compare scores from two different competitions, especially when one is a BOA show and the other is not. But I'll show you the sort of thing I take into consideration when comparing scores... At the TMC, Ronald Reagan scored 89.675 in Finals and James Bowie scored 83.250, which is 92.835% of Ronald Reagan's score. Now, at the BOA Katy Regional, Ronald Reagan scored 87.40. If we use that same 92.835% ratio, we get an estimated score of 81.138 for James Bowie at Katy. Let's double-check this another way. Take Vandegrift's margin over Ronald Reagan at TMC (101.185%) and apply it to Reagan's score at BOA Katy (87.40 x 1.01185) and we get an estimate of 88.436 for Vandegrift had they competed at BOA Katy. At BOA Austin, Vandegrift scored 83.675 in Prelims and James Bowie scored 76.650 (91.604%). Apply that 91.604% ratio to Vandegrift's estimate of 88.436 and we have a SECOND estimated score of 81.011 for Bowie at Katy. 81.011 and 81.138. Pretty consistent. So we'll use the higher estimate. Also at Katy, Cypress Falls scored 75.80. CyFalls was the only band who competed at both BOA Katy and BOA Dallas. Using Bowie's guesstimated score of 81.138, we get a ratio of 107.042% for Bowie over Cypress Falls. Now, at BOA Dallas, Cypress Falls' score fell to 71.60. They got absolutely tanked by two visual judges. But even if we compensate for that and add, let's say three points, to Cypress Falls' score at BOA Dallas, you're still looking at this equation: - 74.60 (Cypress Falls' adjusted score) x 1.07042 (Bowie over CyFalls ratio) = 79.853 (James Bowie's estimated BOA Dallas score)
That 79.853 would have been behind Coppell and Keller and just barely ahead of L.D. Bell.
It's just an estimate. But comparing "common opponents" from different shows, it becomes apparent that BOA Dallas and the Texas Marching Classic were not on the same scale. Coppell, Keller, and L.D. Bell would have likely scored HIGHER had they competed at TMC, and Vandegrift, Reagan, CTJ, Bowie, et al. would have likely scored LOWER had they been competing at BOA Dallas.
Now, can you explain all that again via interpretive dance? I LOL’ed so hard I think I woke up the neighbors. And they weren’t even asleep. 😂😂😂 |
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 15, 2021 16:34:55 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure he meant high as in up in the rankings. Not high as in number. But it is always a safe bet to blame him all the same 😜🙃 😂🤣😂 this whole thread is giving me life right now. 😆 |
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 15, 2021 16:40:42 GMT -6
Hello! I'm new here and I have a question. In determining overall rank, are BOA competitions given more weight than local shows such as the Texas Marching Classic? Thanks! Each voter uses their own criteria, but I can say that on my weekly ballot, yes, BOA competitions are given more weight. I just put them in order of who’s wearing the prettiest colors. 💅 |
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Post by Allohak on Oct 15, 2021 16:41:46 GMT -6
Each voter uses their own criteria, but I can say that on my weekly ballot, yes, BOA competitions are given more weight. I just put them in order of who’s wearing the prettiest colors. 💅 This explains so much |
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 15, 2021 16:43:14 GMT -6
I just put them in order of who’s wearing the prettiest colors. 💅 This explains so much 😂🤪🤷🏻♀️ |
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Post by hostrauser on Oct 15, 2021 16:50:41 GMT -6
Now, can you explain all that again via interpretive dance? |
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Post by hostrauser on Oct 15, 2021 16:56:06 GMT -6
Thanks for all your replies and insights. I am learning something here!. So, does the first group to perform at any given contest sort of set the beginning mark or range in the adjudication process? I ask because James Bowie has been randomly chosen to perform first in the finals group at their last 4 contests (the mathematical odds of which are astronomical). Do the rankers at Hornrank take HIGHLY UNUSUAL things like this into consideration when ranking? I know the math may not bear it out, but to me it does seem to be a competitive disadvantage to have to perform first at any show. Assuming it is a 12-band Finals with positions #7-12 randomly assigned the first six performance slots, the odds are actually only 1 in 1,296. A competition with only ten bands in Finals that did a 5/5 split would have odds of merely 1 in 625. Do I take it into consideration? Depends on the show and the caliber of judges at that show. A big show like TMC or a BOA regional, I think you're going to get a fairly good read in Finals regardless of which performance slot you're in. |
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 15, 2021 16:57:30 GMT -6
Now, can you explain all that again via interpretive dance? 🤣🤣🤣 y’all are killing me! |
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