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Post by lostchoirguy on Oct 15, 2021 17:43:22 GMT -6
After reading some of the previous posts I just want to add my two cents that trying to compare bands that haven't competed head-to-head is difficult and in many ways impractical. Even still, two bands may compete against each other in consecutive weeks and may switch positions. This is just the nature of various performances being stronger than others and the subjective nature of the marching arts.
These rankings shouldn't be thought of as definitive, but rather a rough estimate for who might be where. As we get into the later part of the season, we will be able to better piece together these rankings as we get to Super Regionals, State competitions, and eventually Grand Nats.
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Post by thewho on Oct 15, 2021 18:06:03 GMT -6
After reading some of the previous posts I just want to add my two cents that trying to compare bands that haven't competed head-to-head is difficult and in many ways impractical. Even still, two bands may compete against each other in consecutive weeks and may switch positions. This is just the nature of various performances being stronger than others and the subjective nature of the marching arts. These rankings shouldn't be thought of as definitive, but rather a rough estimate for who might be where. As we get into the later part of the season, we will be able to better piece together these rankings as we get to Super Regionals, State competitions, and eventually Grand Nats. Certainly. Many of the rankers are trying their best to figure out where bands go nationally, but it's hard to make a judgment call on the spot when we have many bands clustered together on the parity chart. Keep in mind that these are called weekly rankings for a reason. The rankers will be just as reactionary to the results as football pundits would be to Alabama losing against A&M (consequently tumbling out of #1). There's a lot of bands being pushed down the ladder because none of the rankers have been able to see them or the results isn't indicative of any tell-tale status, e.g. Avon winning all local Indy competitions without Carmel. Vandegrift wasn't seen as a true #1 until they beat Reagan soundly. |
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Post by thewho on Oct 15, 2021 18:16:48 GMT -6
As far as rankings go this week, Vandegrift beating Reagan this week was certainly the chief factor in pushing them up to the top. Time remains to be seen whether Reagan is playing the long game here, but the chatter I've heard is that Vandegrift has a solid case of being #1 this week.
Cedar Ridge is the real deal this year. A top 7 finish at San Antonio isn't out of the question. I expect them to hold on to the mid-tier ranking for the remainder of the season.
I'm personally intrigued by the Wando/Dobyns-Bennett/Harrison match-up at Jacksonville. The chatter I've heard seems to indicate this might be a true toss-up. A band not named here or in the top 32 might end up sneaking into a medal position.
Indiana will be holding regionals this week. This won't do too much for Avon nor Carmel, but keep an eye on the Castle/Fishers match-up at the south regional and the Brownsburg/Homestead match-up. Maybe Fishers will get the bump into the late teens I've been hoping for... In addition, an Indy band might make the next 10 if they score well
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Post by Allohak on Oct 15, 2021 18:28:56 GMT -6
I'm personally intrigued by the Wando/Dobyns-Bennett/Harrison match-up at Jacksonville. The chatter I've heard seems to indicate this might be a true toss-up. A band not named here or in the top 32 might end up sneaking into a medal position. Me. I'm chattering about another band medaling ahead of (at least) one of Wando/D-B/Harrison. |
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Post by thewho on Oct 15, 2021 21:00:21 GMT -6
I'm personally intrigued by the Wando/Dobyns-Bennett/Harrison match-up at Jacksonville. The chatter I've heard seems to indicate this might be a true toss-up. A band not named here or in the top 32 might end up sneaking into a medal position. Me. I'm chattering about another band medaling ahead of (at least) one of Wando/D-B/Harrison. You're not the only person I've heard that from. |
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Post by turfday on Oct 16, 2021 6:08:49 GMT -6
It’s puzzling that Vista Ridge is still ranked ahead of Cedar Park.
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Post by turfday on Oct 16, 2021 6:09:52 GMT -6
Why is Homestead so high? I guess making Grand National Finals 5 out of the last 6 years doesn't count for anything. That’s only 5 of the 6 last years with an opportunity to go to nationals every year and with an old band director who is no longer with Homestead after a year-long hiatus. |
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Post by sethb811 on Oct 16, 2021 6:33:22 GMT -6
I guess making Grand National Finals 5 out of the last 6 years doesn't count for anything. That’s only 5 of the 6 last years with an opportunity to go to nationals every year and with an old band director who is no longer with Homestead after a year-long hiatus. Name a band below them that would've made it all 6 of those years. Also the one year they missed they were 13th by 0.3 points. Who cares if they get to go every year. They make the most of that opportunity consistently. The band director argument is pointless as is the hiatus because nearly everyone was in that same boat. |
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Post by lostchoirguy on Oct 16, 2021 13:20:35 GMT -6
That’s only 5 of the 6 last years with an opportunity to go to nationals every year and with an old band director who is no longer with Homestead after a year-long hiatus. Name a band below them that would've made it all 6 of those years. Also the one year they missed they were 13th by 0.3 points. Who cares if they get to go every year. They make the most of that opportunity consistently. The band director argument is pointless as is the hiatus because nearly everyone was in that same boat. Your point stands and I think is valid. However, as a homer I would argue that Keller, who is ranked lower, could have possibly made it every year. They have been extremely consistent over that time- never missing a finals at any contest (including the San Antonio Super Regional and Grand Nats the one year they went). |
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Post by Marching Observer on Oct 16, 2021 15:11:28 GMT -6
I think it's fairly safe to safe that these rankings probably have razor thin margins and it is a tight race between many of them. One false step can really drop you. The difference between 18 and 28 is not that large of a gap at all.
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Post by turfday on Oct 16, 2021 15:26:22 GMT -6
That’s only 5 of the 6 last years with an opportunity to go to nationals every year and with an old band director who is no longer with Homestead after a year-long hiatus. Name a band below them that would've made it all 6 of those years. Also the one year they missed they were 13th by 0.3 points. Who cares if they get to go every year. They make the most of that opportunity consistently. The band director argument is pointless as is the hiatus because nearly everyone was in that same boat. Round Rock who’s ranked “below” them has made it every single time they’ve attended, all the way since 2013. Keller would have had no issue either I don’t think. L.D. Bell would absolutely have made it any year the past six years even the years they missed SA finals. You can’t tell me their 2017 show wouldn’t be a national finalist. |
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Post by Marching Observer on Oct 16, 2021 15:55:49 GMT -6
The rankings are also mostly a reflection of this year. Are they foolproof? Lololol no. It's for fun and is decided on a majority of factors. Not just by one person. Yes consistency and pay accomplishments mean a bit, but it's not the end all. These rankings have clearly been shifting all season long with several more weeks to go in the season.
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Post by sethb811 on Oct 16, 2021 16:14:01 GMT -6
Name a band below them that would've made it all 6 of those years. Also the one year they missed they were 13th by 0.3 points. Who cares if they get to go every year. They make the most of that opportunity consistently. The band director argument is pointless as is the hiatus because nearly everyone was in that same boat. Round Rock who’s ranked “below” them has made it every single time they’ve attended, all the way since 2013. Keller would have had no issue either I don’t think. L.D. Bell would absolutely have made it any year the past six years even the years they missed SA finals. You can’t tell me their 2017 show wouldn’t be a national finalist. Round Rock was also 3 points behind Prosper in 2018 in San Antonio. Not even close to a lock had they gone. LD Bell missed San Antonio several times including a weak 2016 field. Not a lock. Keller is probably the strongest argument but they missed SA Finals in 2014 (though I'd argue that show was better than 2015). Again not a lock. So all three of those bands are just as inconsistent as Homestead. If you want to throw all those other years away and strictly focus on this year, then fine, I might be willing to agree with you because I don't particularly love Homestead's show this year, but I've counted Homestead out too many times and been proven wrong to discredit them. We'll see how they do at Indy next weekend and if they don't perform up to standards they'll drop in the rankings. |
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Post by sethb811 on Oct 16, 2021 16:20:00 GMT -6
Name a band below them that would've made it all 6 of those years. Also the one year they missed they were 13th by 0.3 points. Who cares if they get to go every year. They make the most of that opportunity consistently. The band director argument is pointless as is the hiatus because nearly everyone was in that same boat. Your point stands and I think is valid. However, as a homer I would argue that Keller, who is ranked lower, could have possibly made it every year. They have been extremely consistent over that time- never missing a finals at any contest (including the San Antonio Super Regional and Grand Nats the one year they went). I agree that Keller has been better over the same time than Homestead. Keller took an unfair hit early in the year because of that bad showing at whatever local show it was. They rebounded at the BOA Dallas show and should climb in the rankings each week. I'd expect them to finish above Homestead once the season ends, unless Homestead finds a way to make GN Finals (which looks like a stretch to me right now). |
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Post by Marching Observer on Oct 16, 2021 21:58:55 GMT -6
I think it's pretty safe to say that after this weekend that we will see a lot of changes about to happen. 👀
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Post by Allohak on Oct 16, 2021 23:20:43 GMT -6
I think it's pretty safe to say that after this weekend that we will see a lot of changes about to happen. 👀 Um...yeah. |
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Post by lostchoirguy on Oct 17, 2021 0:37:01 GMT -6
I havent really been following today. What crazy things happened?
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Post by IndianaMarchingFan on Oct 17, 2021 7:33:52 GMT -6
I havent really been following today. What crazy things happened? In Indiana Brownsburg toppled Homestead at the northern ISSMA Regional, so we can expect to see Homestead fall in ratings and Brownsburg rise. You had Wando and Dobyns very close in Jacksonville and then Blue Springs BARELY beating Blue Springs South at an independent competition. |
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Post by hostrauser on Oct 17, 2021 10:40:16 GMT -6
Let's not overreact.  |
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Post by thewho on Oct 17, 2021 10:45:57 GMT -6
Let's not overreact. Yes, we've been reacting appropriately every week. /s |
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Post by verysaxy on Oct 17, 2021 10:57:45 GMT -6
I havent really been following today. What crazy things happened? DeSoto took a visual caption from Dobyns-Bennett in AAA. Stoneman Douglas (who I believe has been in the next 10 within recent years) had a very poor showing at Orlando finals. Even though I thoroughly disagree, I wouldn’t be surprised to see DeSoto in the next 10 pretty soon. |
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Post by hostrauser on Oct 17, 2021 11:12:05 GMT -6
Let's not overreact. Yes, we've been reacting appropriately every week. /s This forum is known for its calm and rational reaction to change. |
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Post by vandybandyfandy on Oct 17, 2021 14:55:33 GMT -6
It’s puzzling that Vista Ridge is still ranked ahead of Cedar Park. I agree. We are in the same district and have seen both of those bands perform 4 times this season. They are both amazingly talented and have great shows, but I think Cedar Park is just knocking it out of the park this year. I'm also surprised to see CTJ move down. We competed against them twice this year, and they are just plain good. In fact, after watching the TMC finals, I thought they were going to finish higher than Reagan. As it ended up, they were only 3/10 of a point behind them. Definitely one of the most musically talented groups in the country. |
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Post by Shroom on Oct 17, 2021 15:00:35 GMT -6
It’s puzzling that Vista Ridge is still ranked ahead of Cedar Park. I agree. We are in the same district and have seen both of those bands perform 4 times this season. They are both amazingly talented and have great shows, but I think Cedar Park is just knocking it out of the park this year. I'm also surprised to see CTJ move down. We competed against them twice this year, and they are just plain good. In fact, after watching the TMC finals, I thought they were going to finish higher than Reagan. As it ended up, they were only 3/10 of a point behind them. Definitely one of the most musically talented groups in the country. Yea I feel like CTJ and Woodlands will switch places pretty soon. Also I don't really understand all the negativity surrounding VR, they're not on their 2018-2019 level but they're definitely ahead of DB, Wando, RR, Homestead and O'Fallon. Probably on the bottom half of finals still definitely in finals.. |
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Oct 17, 2021 15:15:32 GMT -6
I agree. We are in the same district and have seen both of those bands perform 4 times this season. They are both amazingly talented and have great shows, but I think Cedar Park is just knocking it out of the park this year. I'm also surprised to see CTJ move down. We competed against them twice this year, and they are just plain good. In fact, after watching the TMC finals, I thought they were going to finish higher than Reagan. As it ended up, they were only 3/10 of a point behind them. Definitely one of the most musically talented groups in the country. Yea I feel like CTJ and Woodlands will switch places pretty soon. Also I don't really understand all the negativity surrounding VR, they're not on their 2018-2019 level but they're definitely ahead of DB, Wando, RR, Homestead and O'Fallon. Probably on the bottom half of finals still definitely in finals.. Because BOA rewards design and visual ingenuity and not much anything else. You can literally have a program be mired by intonation issues across winds, watered down brass music books and still metal. I’ve heard boa scholars repeatedly say that Hebron’s highrst recorded BOA prelim GN score can easily be beaten by a program that doesn’t have to necessarily play as robust? Lol. Welcome to the circuit that rewards programs that sound like a Texas middle school feeder program yet hold legacy design teams to carry 60% of the load. |
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Post by hewhowaits on Oct 17, 2021 15:22:51 GMT -6
Because BOA rewards design and visual ingenuity and not much anything else. You can literally have a program be mired by intonation and watered down music books and still metal. I’ve heard people say that Hebron’s BOA highest semi final score at BOA can be overtaken by a program that doesn’t have to necessarily play as robust? Lol. Welcome to the circuit that rewards programs that sound like a Texas middle school feeder program yet hold legacy design teams to carry 60% of the load. 60% of the score for BOA is MUSIC. Only 40% is visual (ingenious or not). 60% of the score for BOA is PERFORMANCE. Only 40% can be considered "design." How this "rewards design and visual ingenuity and not much anything else" escapes me. And as for the people doing the rankings, they are not tied down to ranking the bands based on any single criterion so... |
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Oct 17, 2021 15:49:58 GMT -6
Because BOA rewards design and visual ingenuity and not much anything else. You can literally have a program be mired by intonation and watered down music books and still metal. I’ve heard people say that Hebron’s BOA highest semi final score at BOA can be overtaken by a program that doesn’t have to necessarily play as robust? Lol. Welcome to the circuit that rewards programs that sound like a Texas middle school feeder program yet hold legacy design teams to carry 60% of the load. 60% of the score for BOA is MUSIC. Only 40% is visual (ingenious or not). 60% of the score for BOA is PERFORMANCE. Only 40% can be considered "design." How this "rewards design and visual ingenuity and not much anything else" escapes me. And as for the people doing the rankings, they are not tied down to ranking the bands based on any single criterion so... We’ve had this conversation before. Even thought BOA uses the same language (Music and Visual) as every other circuit in the country, BOA adjudication handbook have music scored under a gentler “interpretation” “expressionistic” more subjective language. It’s NOT intonation or prowess. Rather than go down this rabbit hole let’s agree to disagree amigo. I’m okay with Opinions. We all have one |
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Post by srv1084 on Oct 17, 2021 16:10:16 GMT -6
We’ve had this conversation before. Even thought BOA uses the same language (Music and Visual) as every other circuit in the country, BOA adjudication handbook have music scored under a gentler “interpretation” “expressionistic” more subjective language. It’s NOT intonation or prowess. Rather than go down this rabbit hole let’s agree to disagree amigo. I’m okay with Opinions. We all have one The job of the Field Performance judge is to evaluate the Performance accuracy, tone quality and intonation and
the realized musical demand placed on the performers. This judge must move around on the field through the ensemble to sample all individuals in all segments of the instrument ensemble throughout the Performance. This judge must not stay on the sideline. While the ensemble execution judge must strive to adjudicate the majority of the ensemble the majority of the time, the Individual Performance judge is not concerned with ensemble factors except as may be obviated through his chance positioning. The effectiveness of the production is not to be considered.Section 33: Scoresheet Explanation – Music Performance EnsembleThe purpose of evaluation on this sheet is to determine the best, second best, etc., musical performance based on accuracy and uniformity of performance as perceived from the vantage point of the audience. The judgment of technical accuracy, intonation accuracy, and tone quality is to be made with the
consideration of content—that is, demand and exposure of the performers. The effectiveness of the
production is not to be considered. The vantage point of the Music Performance Ensemble judge is such that it would be relatively easy to slip into an effect mode as a judge. We must take great care that we
react as an analyst while judging Music Performance Ensemble. We want to judge how well the
performers do what it is they are doing and to make an estimation, a judgment, as to what it is they are
attempting to do from this vantage point; not how effective what they are doing is to the audience. The Overall Sound Quality/Accuracy sub-caption evaluates how closely the ensemble has achieved proper tone production. It is the result obtained when the three major aspects of intonation, focus, and timbre are properly utilized by segments contributing to the sonority of the total ensemble. Consideration is also given to the appropriate dynamic contribution of the sections, choirs, and voices to the total ensemble. Accuracy credits the excellence with which the entire ensemble controls the accuracy and cohesiveness of the musical Performance. Consideration is given to the clarity and correctness of rhythmic interpretation as well as the control of ensemble pulse and tempo. In addition, are the instrumentalists utilizing the proper method of enunciation relative to style and pedagogy? The Musical Artistry sub-caption evaluates the overall achievement of the musical ensemble relative to musicality. Consideration is given for the level of musical achievement displayed through appropriate demonstration of expressions, dynamics, phrasing and correct idiomatic interpretation. The art involved in displaying musicality requires aesthetic sensitivity and a deep understanding of the idioms involved. Personal note: You will not achieve enough of a GE score boost if the performance isn't there. They don't just evaluate the effect of the musical repertoire, they evaluate the effect of the musical performance itself, which is inherently based on achievement. "Understand that we evaluate what is being performed at the same time we are evaluating how it is being performed. Since we judge achievement, we must understand that the construction and content of a program, in combination with the performance level which is being demonstrated, will determine the achievement level." |
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Post by Allohak on Oct 17, 2021 16:12:47 GMT -6
We’ve had this conversation before. Even thought BOA uses the same language (Music and Visual) as every other circuit in the country, BOA adjudication handbook have music scored under a gentler “interpretation” “expressionistic” more subjective language. It’s NOT intonation or prowess. Rather than go down this rabbit hole let’s agree to disagree amigo. I’m okay with Opinions. We all have one The job of the Field Performance judge is to evaluate the Performance accuracy, tone quality and intonation and
the realized musical demand placed on the performers. This judge must move around on the field through the ensemble to sample all individuals in all segments of the instrument ensemble throughout the Performance. This judge must not stay on the sideline. While the ensemble execution judge must strive to adjudicate the majority of the ensemble the majority of the time, the Individual Performance judge is not concerned with ensemble factors except as may be obviated through his chance positioning. The effectiveness of the production is not to be considered.Section 33: Scoresheet Explanation – Music Performance EnsembleThe purpose of evaluation on this sheet is to determine the best, second best, etc., musical performance based on accuracy and uniformity of performance as perceived from the vantage point of the audience. The judgment of technical accuracy, intonation accuracy, and tone quality is to be made with the
consideration of content—that is, demand and exposure of the performers. The effectiveness of the
production is not to be considered. The vantage point of the Music Performance Ensemble judge is such that it would be relatively easy to slip into an effect mode as a judge. We must take great care that we
react as an analyst while judging Music Performance Ensemble. We want to judge how well the
performers do what it is they are doing and to make an estimation, a judgment, as to what it is they are
attempting to do from this vantage point; not how effective what they are doing is to the audience. The Overall Sound Quality/Accuracy sub-caption evaluates how closely the ensemble has achieved proper tone production. It is the result obtained when the three major aspects of intonation, focus, and timbre are properly utilized by segments contributing to the sonority of the total ensemble. Consideration is also given to the appropriate dynamic contribution of the sections, choirs, and voices to the total ensemble. Accuracy credits the excellence with which the entire ensemble controls the accuracy and cohesiveness of the musical Performance. Consideration is given to the clarity and correctness of rhythmic interpretation as well as the control of ensemble pulse and tempo. In addition, are the instrumentalists utilizing the proper method of enunciation relative to style and pedagogy? The Musical Artistry sub-caption evaluates the overall achievement of the musical ensemble relative to musicality. Consideration is given for the level of musical achievement displayed through appropriate demonstration of expressions, dynamics, phrasing and correct idiomatic interpretation. The art involved in displaying musicality requires aesthetic sensitivity and a deep understanding of the idioms involved. 🎤⬇️ |
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Post by supersound on Oct 17, 2021 17:05:59 GMT -6
Yea I feel like CTJ and Woodlands will switch places pretty soon. Also I don't really understand all the negativity surrounding VR, they're not on their 2018-2019 level but they're definitely ahead of DB, Wando, RR, Homestead and O'Fallon. Probably on the bottom half of finals still definitely in finals.. Because BOA rewards design and visual ingenuity and not much anything else. You can literally have a program be mired by intonation issues across winds, watered down brass music books and still metal. I’ve heard boa scholars repeatedly say that Hebron’s highrst recorded BOA prelim GN score can easily be beaten by a program that doesn’t have to necessarily play as robust? Lol. Welcome to the circuit that rewards programs that sound like a Texas middle school feeder program yet hold legacy design teams to carry 60% of the load. I do agree that you don’t really need to blow Hebrons music scores out of the water to take the score record at least. Sure the band that takes the record obviously has to have at least a comparable music performance but they don’t have to match Hebrons exactly. They just need consistency in every caption, mainly visual to really take that record. |
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