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Post by flomodad on Nov 3, 2021 11:16:46 GMT -6
First year marching band parent with no band experience. I've watched some of the performances from the top bands on the rankings list but as a novice spectator, some of the performances seem a bit boring - music and visual.
Seems obvious that the most entertaining show is not always the best performance. As a novice spectator, what details should I be looking at to become a more educated viewer?
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Post by trombonium on Nov 3, 2021 11:21:39 GMT -6
Don't believe anyone else. All that matters is who can play the loudest.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 3, 2021 12:09:29 GMT -6
First year marching band parent with no band experience. I've watched some of the performances from the top bands on the rankings list but as a novice spectator, some of the performances seem a bit boring - music and visual.
Seems obvious that the most entertaining show is not always the best performance. As a novice spectator, what details should I be looking at to become a more educated viewer?
Welcome to the activity! I take it from your screenname that you're a FloMo parent, which puts you in a great place to see some of the best bands in the country. You have an exciting few years ahead of you! I'd start with paying attention to how in sync the performers are. This is a huge part of both music and visual- a band with really interesting drill is still going to score below one with relatively simple drill if they can't keep their feet in time. However, a more difficult program is likely to receive higher evaluation than an easy one, so a program with excellent design and good execution will score higher than one that doesn't bring any innovation to the field, but only if it's executed well and received well by the judges. A good example of this is Marian Catholic 2019- a phenomenal show with stunning execution that was received badly because it didn't appeal to judges and the audience. However, Carmel has a reputation among viewers for being somewhat uninteresting, but always scores well and is a hit with the judges because they march and play virtually flawlessly. This can be a big difference in instruction and design that leads to viewers favoring one style over another and being confused when a style that doesn't appeal to them scores higher. As a Flower Mound parent, you're going to see a lot of high GE scores out of your band- General Effect is the key to a show that makes you feel something. Sometimes a show with high general effect that moves people has weaknesses in music and visual, and scores lower than bands that focus less on audience impact and put more energy into playing and marching perfectly. This Grand Nationals, you'll see both sides: Flower Mound, Broken Arrow, and Blue Springs are all going to invest a lot of energy into GE, while Carmel, Reagan, and Marcus are going to have arguably more skill when it comes to the way they play the music and move around the field. Both are valid ways to score well and win competitions. That's the entire reason we have captions: the person with the best General Effect will not always have the best music, even though music factors into GE. All three categories deserve to be rewarded. I would also recommend watching sections your kid isn't in to familiarize yourself with the standards. BA and Avon are going to have crazy guards, and sometimes someone who only really watches the trumpet section may not pay attention and then be confused why a GE score is so high. On the converse, someone who sees an exceptional guard may pay less attention to the music and then be confused when the better music score trumps the pretty flagwork. A "boring" show with exceptional music execution is going do well because music is a large part of the score. Pay attention to what you don't usually watch at home! You'll learn a lot about other groups that way. Welcome to the band world, and have an amazing first Grand Nats! |
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Post by es203 on Nov 3, 2021 12:44:17 GMT -6
First year marching band parent with no band experience. I've watched some of the performances from the top bands on the rankings list but as a novice spectator, some of the performances seem a bit boring - music and visual.
Seems obvious that the most entertaining show is not always the best performance. As a novice spectator, what details should I be looking at to become a more educated viewer?
Welcome to the activity! I take it from your screenname that you're a FloMo parent, which puts you in a great place to see some of the best bands in the country. You have an exciting few years ahead of you! I'd start with paying attention to how in sync the performers are. This is a huge part of both music and visual- a band with really interesting drill is still going to score below one with relatively simple drill if they can't keep their feet in time. However, a more difficult program is likely to receive higher evaluation than an easy one, so a program with excellent design and good execution will score higher than one that doesn't bring any innovation to the field, but only if it's executed well and received well by the judges. A good example of this is Marian Catholic 2019- a phenomenal show with stunning execution that was received badly because it didn't appeal to judges and the audience. However, Carmel has a reputation among viewers for being somewhat uninteresting, but always scores well and is a hit with the judges because they march and play virtually flawlessly. This can be a big difference in instruction and design that leads to viewers favoring one style over another and being confused when a style that doesn't appeal to them scores higher. As a Flower Mound parent, you're going to see a lot of high GE scores out of your band- General Effect is the key to a show that makes you feel something. Sometimes a show with high general effect that moves people has weaknesses in music and visual, and scores lower than bands that focus less on audience impact and put more energy into playing and marching perfectly. This Grand Nationals, you'll see both sides: Flower Mound, Broken Arrow, and Blue Springs are all going to invest a lot of energy into GE, while Carmel, Reagan, and Marcus are going to have arguably more skill when it comes to the way they play the music and move around the field. Both are valid ways to score well and win competitions. That's the entire reason we have captions: the person with the best General Effect will not always have the best music, even though music factors into GE. All three categories deserve to be rewarded. I would also recommend watching sections your kid isn't in to familiarize yourself with the standards. BA and Avon are going to have crazy guards, and sometimes someone who only really watches the trumpet section may not pay attention and then be confused why a GE score is so high. On the converse, someone who sees an exceptional guard may pay less attention to the music and then be confused when the better music score trumps the pretty flagwork. A "boring" show with exceptional music execution is going do well because music is a large part of the score. Pay attention to what you don't usually watch at home! You'll learn a lot about other groups that way. Welcome to the band world, and have an amazing first Grand Nats! This is a great rundown, and I would highly recommend watching some of the highest placing shows at Grand Nationals (or San Antonio) from years past and figuring out why they placed so well. Watch shows that placed 1st vs. shows that placed lower, and look at what all the performers are doing, and are they doing it together and in time? I also love what ilikeguard said about watching every section. Visual performance isn't just based on how well the wind players march, it's also about the color guard. Music performance isn't just about how loud the brass are playing, it's about the entire band playing together and cleanly. But where music and visual have a relatively simple concept (the cleaner you are, the higher you will typically score), GE is a little complicated. There are music GE judges and visual GE judges, and they are judging how effective your performance is, to the audience and the judges. GE is definitely much harder to explain, but if a band is clean and scoring well, they will typically be communicating the idea of their show better, which results in higher GE scores. If you really want to get into the weeds (it is SO much more complicated than any of us could explain) the BOA 2021 rulebook can help you understand exactly what each judge does, and how they judge it. The adjudication section starts on page 25, and it definitely discusses some of the important details of judging we forgot. marching.musicforall.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2021/08/2021-BOA-Handbook.pdf |
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 3, 2021 12:45:16 GMT -6
First year marching band parent with no band experience. I've watched some of the performances from the top bands on the rankings list but as a novice spectator, some of the performances seem a bit boring - music and visual.
Seems obvious that the most entertaining show is not always the best performance. As a novice spectator, what details should I be looking at to become a more educated viewer?
Welcome to the activity! I take it from your screenname that you're a FloMo parent, which puts you in a great place to see some of the best bands in the country. You have an exciting few years ahead of you! I'd start with paying attention to how in sync the performers are. This is a huge part of both music and visual- a band with really interesting drill is still going to score below one with relatively simple drill if they can't keep their feet in time. However, a more difficult program is likely to receive higher evaluation than an easy one, so a program with excellent design and good execution will score higher than one that doesn't bring any innovation to the field, but only if it's executed well and received well by the judges. A good example of this is Marian Catholic 2019- a phenomenal show with stunning execution that was received badly because it didn't appeal to judges and the audience. However, Carmel has a reputation among viewers for being somewhat uninteresting, but always scores well and is a hit with the judges because they march and play virtually flawlessly. This can be a big difference in instruction and design that leads to viewers favoring one style over another and being confused when a style that doesn't appeal to them scores higher. As a Flower Mound parent, you're going to see a lot of high GE scores out of your band- General Effect is the key to a show that makes you feel something. Sometimes a show with high general effect that moves people has weaknesses in music and visual, and scores lower than bands that focus less on audience impact and put more energy into playing and marching perfectly. This Grand Nationals, you'll see both sides: Flower Mound, Broken Arrow, and Blue Springs are all going to invest a lot of energy into GE, while Carmel, Reagan, and Marcus are going to have arguably more skill when it comes to the way they play the music and move around the field. Both are valid ways to score well and win competitions. That's the entire reason we have captions: the person with the best General Effect will not always have the best music, even though music factors into GE. All three categories deserve to be rewarded. I would also recommend watching sections your kid isn't in to familiarize yourself with the standards. BA and Avon are going to have crazy guards, and sometimes someone who only really watches the trumpet section may not pay attention and then be confused why a GE score is so high. On the converse, someone who sees an exceptional guard may pay less attention to the music and then be confused when the better music score trumps the pretty flagwork. A "boring" show with exceptional music execution is going do well because music is a large part of the score. Pay attention to what you don't usually watch at home! You'll learn a lot about other groups that way. Welcome to the band world, and have an amazing first Grand Nats! This is an excellent explanation. At the end of they day marching band is a "comparative" sport. You are compared in the different caption categories to other groups and whoever has the most (1s) usually wins. And as Lafe Cook once said "marching band is all offense no defense, you can't stop another band from doing their best. Students just have to do what they can through their personal efforts." As far as General effect goes, well we're all still figuring out how that is judged  LOL just kidding, sort of. But you can actually go and look at the sheets online and they do a great job outlining exactly what judges are looking for. But it is all about how clear is your concept and how well do the music and visual components written into the show help portray that idea/ concept. GE is very subjective, hence why there are 3 judges judging it and two judging the exact same music effect caption to achieve an average.
Taken from the handbook: The process of arriving at this decision is threefold: 1. Impression or reaction. 2. Analysis. 3. Comparison. 34.02 Effectiveness of the Musical Repertoire credits the effectiveness of the written musical program as presented by the performers. Considerations should be given to the following areas: • Creativity and Imagination: The art of designing and coordinating efforts and effects in order to create mood and flow to a specific show. A previously used idea presented in a new way is still creative/imaginative. • Coordination and Staging of Elements: All elements are involved and work together to create a strong musical effect. All sections are staged for effective communication. • Use of Time and Pacing of Effects: The unfolding of musical events in a manner which elicits interest, direction and flow. • Appropriate Range of Expressions: Dynamics, articulations, phrasing, style, nuance, and other interpretive elements are appropriate to the genre of the music selected. The use and variety of these expressions enhance the musical effect. • Continuity and Flow of musical ideas: The development, connection and evolution of planned events. • Contribution for Enrichment/Enhancement of All Elements 34.03 Effectiveness of the Musical Performance credits the level at which the performers demonstrate their emotional involvement and understanding of the musical program. Consideration should be given to the following areas: • Communication of Musical Intent: The performance conveys the intended purpose and creative vision of the written musical program, and brings the music to life. • Emotion: Performers demonstrate a level of believability with passion that generates program effectiveness unattainable through repertoire alone. • Professionalism: The ability of the musicians to perform with confidence, understanding, and a high level of musicianship. • Artistry: The elements of musicality such as phrasing, sonority, beauty, pace (tempo, rubato) and nuance combine to create or heighten the effect of the musical performance. Bands of America Official Procedures and Adjudication Handbook 32 • Involvement: The performers display an attachment: performer to performer, performer to audience, in respect to the expressive qualities inherent to the program. marching.musicforall.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/05/2019-BOA-Rulebook.pdf |
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Post by LeanderMomma on Nov 3, 2021 13:47:48 GMT -6
Don't believe anyone else. All that matters is who can play the loudest. This made me totally laugh out loud. 😁 |
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 3, 2021 13:57:05 GMT -6
Audience "enjoyment" rarely correlates with how a show is scored by the judges. The more you learn about HOW the shows are judged, the closer you will get to being able to predict which bands will place where. The emphasis is on "closer" because even though they are all highly trained, each judge has a slightly different perspective and interpretation.
At any given competition, I usually have a favorite show, a show that I personally consider to be the "best" show, and a show that I expect to win based on my understanding of how the adjudication system works. Most of the time, those are three different shows. Sometimes two of the three are the same, but I struggle to recall an event where all three were the same.
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Post by flomodad on Nov 3, 2021 15:13:47 GMT -6
Thanks for all of the replies and links - lot's to digest.
The more performances we have, the more I find myself watching other parts of the show other than just my kid.
Looking forward to seeing the other bands in San Antonio and Indy next week!
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 3, 2021 15:38:59 GMT -6
Don't believe anyone else. All that matters is who can play the loudest. This is true in South Carolina! Jkjk. Lol |
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Post by Allohak on Nov 3, 2021 16:16:29 GMT -6
First year marching band parent with no band experience. I've watched some of the performances from the top bands on the rankings list but as a novice spectator, some of the performances seem a bit boring - music and visual.
Seems obvious that the most entertaining show is not always the best performance. As a novice spectator, what details should I be looking at to become a more educated viewer?
All the technical talk aside, if you were to get the opportunity to watch the same show 5 times in a row (or, say, have access to a video recording), doing each of the following would teach you a lot about what you like/enjoy/find to be "good" 1. Eyes and ears open, don't go in with anything in particular in mind. Let your eyes follow whatever the performance draws them to see, let your ears hone in in whatever sound seems most prominent at any given time. This will give you some semblance of the "effect" of the show 2. Close your eyes and just listen to what is being played. If it sounds like it's on purpose and a single blended sound, that's good. If it sounds unfocused or a like some players are sticking out, that's less good. This will give you a feel for the music alone. 3. Turn off your ears and just watch without purposely focusing in on anything. Your eyes will be drawn to what's changing and what's different. You'll notice if the spacing between individual people is consistent or not, lines are straight or curved (on purpose or not will be pretty obvious). This will give you a view of the visual alone. 4. Pick an individual, any individual. Follow everything they do, everywhere they go. Does it look like they know where they're going, or trying to catch up? Are they standing tall and gliding across the field, or bouncing unconvincingly? Can you strain yourself to pick out what they're playing? This will help show you how difficult the demand on any given performer is, and how well they're executing it. (This is much harder to do from a video than live, fwiw) 5. Again, without any specific focus, just sit back and enjoy what's being done. After spending the effort on the particulars, you'll probably find yourself noticing smaller details and picking out special moments (either positive or negative) that you wouldn't have before your learning adventure |
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Post by drummerboy on Nov 3, 2021 17:17:10 GMT -6
First year marching band parent with no band experience. I've watched some of the performances from the top bands on the rankings list but as a novice spectator, some of the performances seem a bit boring - music and visual.
Seems obvious that the most entertaining show is not always the best performance. As a novice spectator, what details should I be looking at to become a more educated viewer?
All the technical talk aside, if you were to get the opportunity to watch the same show 5 times in a row (or, say, have access to a video recording), doing each of the following would teach you a lot about what you like/enjoy/find to be "good" 1. Eyes and ears open, don't go in with anything in particular in mind. Let your eyes follow whatever the performance draws them to see, let your ears hone in in whatever sound seems most prominent at any given time. This will give you some semblance of the "effect" of the show 2. Close your eyes and just listen to what is being played. If it sounds like it's on purpose and a single blended sound, that's good. If it sounds unfocused or a like some players are sticking out, that's less good. This will give you a feel for the music alone. 3. Turn off your ears and just watch without purposely focusing in on anything. Your eyes will be drawn to what's changing and what's different. You'll notice if the spacing between individual people is consistent or not, lines are straight or curved (on purpose or not will be pretty obvious). This will give you a view of the visual alone. 4. Pick an individual, any individual. Follow everything they do, everywhere they go. Does it look like they know where they're going, or trying to catch up? Are they standing tall and gliding across the field, or bouncing unconvincingly? Can you strain yourself to pick out what they're playing? This will help show you how difficult the demand on any given performer is, and how well they're executing it. (This is much harder to do from a video than live, fwiw) 5. Again, without any specific focus, just sit back and enjoy what's being done. After spending the effort on the particulars, you'll probably find yourself noticing smaller details and picking out special moments (either positive or negative) that you wouldn't have before your learning adventure Great info here....but remember the most important thing......relax and ENJOY! This "art" is for them to perform and you to ENJOY! We get crazy over details, nothing wrong with that, but after what we went thru last year plus, ENJOY all the performances! |
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LOL just kidding, sort of. But you can actually go and look at the sheets online and they do a great job outlining exactly what judges are looking for. But it is all about how clear is your concept and how well do the music and visual components written into the show help portray that idea/ concept. 
