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Post by bandirectorman on Jun 9, 2022 19:23:48 GMT -6
Lincoln-Way was nearly bested by Marian Catholic & Morton at the end of their season so I think it would be fair to state that they would fall solidly into the 20s placements last year. I don't understand the hype. Scoring in Illinois non-BOA competitions is infamously horrible. Look at how 2019 at the same competition how Lockport took Music and GE from LW and then not even a week later LW beat Lockport by 2 points, or how this year Morton was only .1 from beating O'Fallon Township and took Music and then scored 30th at Nats while OFT scored 18th. The ISU competition is also freezing cold as it's in central IL in late October, which is going to scew scoring towards bands with simple shows like Morton or MC. Maybe I'm just bias, but to me it usually seems like people don't give LW as much credit as other bands in their state since they are usually pretty elusive when it comes to competitions like Nats. The Illinois State show is typically very well adjudicated and is on BOA sheets. I think that most found the gap between the top three programs last year a surprise, but it did happen. Two of those bands ended up making BOA Semifinals. I believe that Lincoln-Way would have also been in semifinals, but am having difficulty understanding how they would have been fighting for finals last year. Their final performance of the season was scored mere tenths ahead of Marian Catholic and slightly further ahead of Morton. I think it is safe to say that they would have fallen in the 20-30 range instead of 10-12. Not sure what Illinois scoring has to do with anything.
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Post by marimba11 on Jun 9, 2022 20:07:05 GMT -6
Idk if I would necessarily be surprised as I can see any combination of them in finals. While I personally wasn't a fan of their show, Southlake Carroll probably had their best season in 2021. I would like to see Fishers in finals, though. And I would still consider Hendrickson in the bubble as well despite going through a small rough patch. Multiple time SA finalist with a pretty good 2021 season. It was an odd show. I think seeing it live helped me understand the effect better. There were also many exposed moments that may not have translated well over webcast/ video. But for them they will probably have a great show again, they just need to clean clean clean for finals
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Post by Subito Fortissimo on Jun 9, 2022 20:20:59 GMT -6
Confirmed:
Cleveland HS, NC (band calendar)
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Post by Shroom on Jun 9, 2022 20:55:06 GMT -6
The Illinois State show is typically very well adjudicated and is on BOA sheets. I think that most found the gap between the top three programs last year a surprise, but it did happen. Two of those bands ended up making BOA Semifinals. I believe that Lincoln-Way would have also been in semifinals, but am having difficulty understanding how they would have been fighting for finals last year. Their final performance of the season was scored mere tenths ahead of Marian Catholic and slightly further ahead of Morton. I think it is safe to say that they would have fallen in the 20-30 range instead of 10-12. Not sure what Illinois scoring has to do with anything. I wouldn't necessarily call a 15th-20th placement at 2021 Nats fighting for finals, and a .4 gap isn't exactly negligible, especially when depending on how tight scoring is at the top end of competitions and how scores usually compress towards the top it usually will indicate like 2 placements. My point isn't to say that LW was going to be some dark horse who came in and gave Wando and Vista a run for finals, but there was a 5 placement and 5.9 point gap between MC and Morton in Indy despite their relative closeness at ISU, so for me to suggest that the gap between MC and LW would likely be great enough to throw LW into that general area isn't a stretch, especially when considering how razor thin the score differences were from the mid twenties placements to the mid teens this year in comparison to how they usually are. This goes especially with how LW usually improves significantly late season and widens the gap from ISU not even a week later, 2019 being the most obvious example again. Given the about 2+ week difference between Nats and ISU I would've expected LW to definitely be in the leagues of RR and Brownsburg rather than MC and Rosemount
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Post by hewhowaits on Jun 10, 2022 4:50:51 GMT -6
The ISU competition is also freezing cold as it's in central IL in late October, which is going to scew scoring towards bands with simple shows like Morton or MC. I never thought I would read anything calling a Marian Catholic show "simple."
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Post by Shroom on Jun 10, 2022 7:09:51 GMT -6
The ISU competition is also freezing cold as it's in central IL in late October, which is going to scew scoring towards bands with simple shows like Morton or MC. I never thought I would read anything calling a Marian Catholic show "simple." I mean in terms of technical and visual difficulty compared to what bands in the competitive tier above them, yes they are simpl er. It wasnt to the same degree as Morton, but by ISU LW's show was definitely on a different level. MC always has a great show theme and aesthetic but it'd be wrong to say that it's still on the level of shows like 08 or 02.
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Post by Allohak on Jun 10, 2022 7:19:36 GMT -6
I never thought I would read anything calling a Marian Catholic show "simple." I mean in terms of technical and visual difficulty compared to what bands in the competitive tier above them, yes they are simpl er. It wasnt to the same degree as Morton, but by ISU LW's show was definitely on a different level. MC always has a great show theme and aesthetic but it'd be wrong to say that it's still on the level of shows like 08 or 02. I mean. Sure. But context. First season back on the field after the canceled 2020 season. Private school with no true feeder program. And significant interruptions to the season due to COVID and transportation issues. Of course MC '21 wasn't up to the difficulty level of prime Bimm design years 🙄
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Post by Shroom on Jun 10, 2022 7:22:00 GMT -6
I mean in terms of technical and visual difficulty compared to what bands in the competitive tier above them, yes they are simpl er. It wasnt to the same degree as Morton, but by ISU LW's show was definitely on a different level. MC always has a great show theme and aesthetic but it'd be wrong to say that it's still on the level of shows like 08 or 02. I mean. Sure. But context. First season back on the field after the canceled 2020 season. Private school with no true feeder program. And significant interruptions to the season due to COVID and transportation issues. Of course MC '21 wasn't up to the difficulty level of prime Bimm design years 🙄 I'm not judging them, it's a descriptive statement not a pejorative. MC did amazing this year with what they had but, they didn't have much.
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Post by hewhowaits on Jun 10, 2022 7:40:13 GMT -6
I mean. Sure. But context. First season back on the field after the canceled 2020 season. Private school with no true feeder program. And significant interruptions to the season due to COVID and transportation issues. Of course MC '21 wasn't up to the difficulty level of prime Bimm design years 🙄 I'm not judging them, it's a descriptive statement not a pejorative. MC did amazing this year with what they had but, they didn't have much. Greg Bimm ALWAYS challenges his students. The level of challenge is always consistent with the level of experience the particular group of students possesses. To say that MC "didn't have much" is a strong statement to make given the challenges.
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Post by Shroom on Jun 10, 2022 8:01:21 GMT -6
I'm not judging them, it's a descriptive statement not a pejorative. MC did amazing this year with what they had but, they didn't have much. Greg Bimm ALWAYS challenges his students. The level of challenge is always consistent with the level of experience the particular group of students possesses. To say that MC "didn't have much" is a strong statement to make given the challenges. You keep putting words in my mouth and you aren't understanding what I'm saying. Marian is able to have a show that is challenging towards its students due to the issues the school faces while still being simpler LW. That would be like saying Coppel didn't have a good season because they couldn't beat Hebron. To further this comparison it is basically inarguable that Hebron had a more complicated and difficult show than Coppell, but that doesn't automatically mean that Coppell's show was easy and didn't challenege its students. These things aren't mutually exclusive All my point is, is that hard work isn't an opportunity equally afforded to everyone. Everyone can work equally as hard but because of the various boons we are granted by circumstance, we don't get the same results. It's the cruelest fact of life but the most apparent, and it isn't helpful to throw your hands in the air and act like it isn't true.
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Post by Allohak on Jun 10, 2022 8:37:10 GMT -6
Greg Bimm ALWAYS challenges his students. The level of challenge is always consistent with the level of experience the particular group of students possesses. To say that MC "didn't have much" is a strong statement to make given the challenges. You keep putting words in my mouth and you aren't understanding what I'm saying. Marian is able to have a show that is challenging towards its students due to the issues the school faces while still being simpler LW. That would be like saying Coppel didn't have a good season because they couldn't beat Hebron. To further this comparison it is basically inarguable that Hebron had a more complicated and difficult show than Coppell, but that doesn't automatically mean that Coppell's show was easy and didn't challenege its students. These things aren't mutually exclusive All my point is, is that hard work isn't an opportunity equally afforded to everyone. Everyone can work equally as hard but because of the various boons we are granted by circumstance, we don't get the same results. It's the cruelest fact of life but the most apparent, and it isn't helpful to throw your hands in the air and act like it isn't true. It might be time to put the shovel back in the toolshed 😎
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Post by srv1084 on Jun 10, 2022 10:11:15 GMT -6
I would be extremely surprised if Fishers, OFallon or Southlake Carrol make finals and Lincoln Way doesn't. That's not by any means shaming shaming any of those three bands since all three are probably going to be finals worthy but in terms of "bubble bands" LW is usually the among top of that group. They didn't do as well as in 2021 but they were probably still the best in their state by the end of the season and likely would've placed around Fishers and RR if they went to Nats in 2021 Lincoln-Way was nearly bested by Marian Catholic & Morton at the end of their season so I think it would be fair to state that they would fall solidly into the 20s placements last year. I don't understand the hype. I really enjoy Lincoln-Way and think they bring something special to the activity, so I won't say I agree with the last comment about understanding the hype. However, I do agree with your first point. I think Lincoln-Way was absolutely on fire in 2018-2019 and those shows were more than capable of challenging for finals, but I would agree that their 2021 offering, while still a great show, wasn't quite there compared to their prior two shows. I'm not basing that on results as much as just my general impression of the show and achievement while trying to compare them to others that attended. I think somewhere right around 20 is where they may have landed last year. I'm really hoping they bring something special this coming year. Would love to see a band with such a long BOA history make finals. Didn't the original Lincoln Way finish in 13th one year in the late 90s? And Lincoln Way East (with their incredibly innovative approach in the early 2000s) nearly made finals, as well.
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Post by Shroom on Jun 10, 2022 12:37:39 GMT -6
I'm not sure if it was causing confusion but for clarity's sake when I say RR I mean Round Rock, not Ronald Reagan. They have cooler uniforms so they deserve the abbreviation over Reagan
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Post by hewhowaits on Jun 10, 2022 18:36:02 GMT -6
I'm not sure if it was causing confusion but for clarity's sake when I say RR I mean Round Rock, not Ronald Reagan. They have cooler uniforms so they deserve the abbreviation over Reagan Ronald Reagan was RR long before Round Rock hit the national scene. Cooler uniforms notwithstanding, Ronald Reagan is RR and Round Rock is RoRo.
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Post by neop on Jun 10, 2022 19:01:04 GMT -6
Confirmed: Walter E. Stebbins H.S., OH (band calendar)
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Post by Marching Observer on Jun 11, 2022 0:41:26 GMT -6
Since we were talking about Marian Catholic, I honestly didn't think last year's show was bad really. Greg Bimm has not let off the gas in his shows designs and always puts on a show that challenges the kids. I'd say the exception (imo) would be 2019. I felt that was the weakest design since War of Art (you can me lol). The difference I've noticed though, has come more at the performance. And in a situation like theirs, there isn't much they can do. Between Covid and changing economic factors, they were a group that was primed to be one of the most affected groups. That said, they still did a tremendous job in a super competitive year. As for the Lincoln-Way comments, I felt the show was a good way to ease kids back into the competitive swing while being fun. Just like Homestead, Franklin, O'Fallon, etc. Fun, entertaining shows to help bring in new kids and get them excited in participating. I enjoyed it. Plus, they incorporated the metamorphosis into their Macy's parade which was great! SRV mentioned they also almost made finals. That was in 010 when they placed 15th.
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Post by yayband914 on Jun 11, 2022 15:24:49 GMT -6
Confirmed:
Hardin Valley Academy, TN (inside source)
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Post by yayband914 on Jun 12, 2022 21:29:06 GMT -6
Confirmed:
Bellbrook H.S., OH (band calendar)
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Post by bandirectorman on Jun 12, 2022 21:46:48 GMT -6
Since we were talking about Marian Catholic, I honestly didn't think last year's show was bad really. Greg Bimm has not let off the gas in his shows designs and always puts on a show that challenges the kids. I'd say the exception (imo) would be 2019. I felt that was the weakest design since War of Art (you can me lol). The difference I've noticed though, has come more at the performance. And in a situation like theirs, there isn't much they can do. Between Covid and changing economic factors, they were a group that was primed to be one of the most affected groups. That said, they still did a tremendous job in a super competitive year. As for the Lincoln-Way comments, I felt the show was a good way to ease kids back into the competitive swing while being fun. Just like Homestead, Franklin, O'Fallon, etc. Fun, entertaining shows to help bring in new kids and get them excited in participating. I enjoyed it. Plus, they incorporated the metamorphosis into their Macy's parade which was great! SRV mentioned they also almost made finals. That was in 010 when they placed 15th. I would agree with you about Marian Catholic. 2019 I felt was the weakest of the bunch & it is not even close. A true off-year and yet I think they still cracked the Top 20 w/ another AA title. The 2013 production was finalist-worthy, but didn't seem to come together until the very end of the season as I recall. Look, I understand that most programs went through a transition of sorts after COVID, and of course that program could have been impacted more than most, but I did feel that they did reign in the tempo of their program this past year a way that I had not seen prior to 2019. Watching their program, I thought that it would really come together at the end and it didn't quite get there. Still, a heck of a program and I have the greatest amount of respect for Greg Bimm. It's amazing what he continues to produce so many years later, especially with what has to be one of the weaker/weakest incoming freshmen of the true BOA semifinalists. I think I would have had them over Norwin in AA, but I can see why they finished second. Interested to see what they do this season. Lincoln-Way as a combined district program has been on the rise and I certainly understand why people think that they will take the next step. All we have is last year to base this on & as a director I certainly realize that programs like theirs can make a leap. I was just pointing out that the Illinois State competition is one of the better ones going in the midwest and take exception with that show not being a valid barometer to direct compare achievement levels in 2021. LW, Marian, Morton were all close to one another. MC appeared to separate from Morton at BOA by quite a bit & we'll just never know if LW would have scored closer to Marian or O'Fallon, who were approximately 2-3 points apart or so. We'll see what happens this year. Best wishes to all competitors.
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Post by marimba11 on Jun 13, 2022 9:10:43 GMT -6
I actually really liked marian 2019 moreso than their typical shows, thought 2021 was a bit of slide considering the covid. Musically not bad though, either one
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Post by trumpet300 on Jun 13, 2022 10:09:26 GMT -6
To me, Marians show felt uncomfortable the entire time. I can't really put my finger on why but it just did not feel like it was locked in, in prelims or semis. I applaud them for their effort with both marching and playing simultaneously, but imo, the brass was not strong enough for the amount of marching, particularly the high brass. Watching their performance, there are lots of cracked notes, unstable sustained pitches, misplaced rythms, and very bright and brittle sounds from the trumpets. I think the woodwinds did very well overall and handled the book much better than the brass. I think that for 2021, with all of their setbacks, a slightly lower level book in terms of playing and marching would have served them well while still giving the students the education they deserve.
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Post by Shroom on Jun 13, 2022 10:44:10 GMT -6
Still, with all this talk about Marian I would be surprised if they don't stay a semis lock for quite a while now. 2021 was by far the hardest year to get semis and with all the set backs they faced this year 25th is pretty outstanding. I would expect in less competitive years (Maybe this ine? It seems like basicslly nobody is going to Nats this year) for them to stick their head in the low to mid teens. I don't really ever see them in finals again unless something crazy happens but they seem to be maintaining their position pretty stably post COVID.
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Post by trumpet300 on Jun 13, 2022 11:10:11 GMT -6
Still, with all this talk about Marian I would be surprised if they don't stay a semis lock for quite a while now. 2021 was by far the hardest year to get semis and with all the set backs they faced this year 25th is pretty outstanding. I would expect in less competitive years (Maybe this ine? It seems like basicslly nobody is going to Nats this year) for them to stick their head in the low to mid teens. I don't really ever see them in finals again unless something crazy happens but they seem to be maintaining their position pretty stably post COVID. I think if they will stay in semis for a quite a while. I wouldn't be surprised though if another year like 2021 comes along that Marian would have another tough fight.
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Post by dbalash on Jun 13, 2022 11:21:36 GMT -6
Still, with all this talk about Marian I would be surprised if they don't stay a semis lock for quite a while now. 2021 was by far the hardest year to get semis and with all the set backs they faced this year 25th is pretty outstanding. I would expect in less competitive years (Maybe this ine? It seems like basicslly nobody is going to Nats this year) for them to stick their head in the low to mid teens. I don't really ever see them in finals again unless something crazy happens but they seem to be maintaining their position pretty stably post COVID. Just wait until they're possibly in Class A in the not too distant future - IHSA says enrollment is at 967, Marian's website says it is at 865.
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Post by trumpet300 on Jun 13, 2022 11:33:54 GMT -6
Still, with all this talk about Marian I would be surprised if they don't stay a semis lock for quite a while now. 2021 was by far the hardest year to get semis and with all the set backs they faced this year 25th is pretty outstanding. I would expect in less competitive years (Maybe this ine? It seems like basicslly nobody is going to Nats this year) for them to stick their head in the low to mid teens. I don't really ever see them in finals again unless something crazy happens but they seem to be maintaining their position pretty stably post COVID. Just wait until they're possibly in Class A in the not too distant future - IHSA says enrollment is at 967, Marian's website says it is at 865. yikes
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Post by principalagent on Jun 13, 2022 13:28:03 GMT -6
Marian in Class A would be far from a bad thing. It would guarantee them a Saturday night performance, and allow an opportunity for Mr. Bimm to eventually retire on a high note.
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Post by Shroom on Jun 13, 2022 14:08:11 GMT -6
Still, with all this talk about Marian I would be surprised if they don't stay a semis lock for quite a while now. 2021 was by far the hardest year to get semis and with all the set backs they faced this year 25th is pretty outstanding. I would expect in less competitive years (Maybe this ine? It seems like basicslly nobody is going to Nats this year) for them to stick their head in the low to mid teens. I don't really ever see them in finals again unless something crazy happens but they seem to be maintaining their position pretty stably post COVID. Just wait until they're possibly in Class A in the not too distant future - IHSA says enrollment is at 967, Marian's website says it is at 865. Fair honestly, but I think if Bimm leaves and MC drops to A they'll still be a powerhouse in their class compared to a lot of their competitors. Maybe they wouldn't win their class every year without Bimm but they'd most likely always medal in A. Which obviously is unfortunate, but it is still another way for music education to continue at a somewhat high level, even if it isn't in the same format as it was previously. The only thing I am really scared for MC at this point in time (outside of Maybe funding? not too sure how the school's finances are of rn but I assume they aren't anywhere near what they used to be even 5 years ago) is if there is a point to where the school just dissolves due to lack of enrollment, which would mean an end to the program obviously
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Post by bandirectorman on Jun 13, 2022 14:52:15 GMT -6
Just wait until they're possibly in Class A in the not too distant future - IHSA says enrollment is at 967, Marian's website says it is at 865. Fair honestly, but I think if Bimm leaves and MC drops to A they'll still be a powerhouse in their class compared to a lot of their competitors. Maybe they wouldn't win their class every year without Bimm but they'd most likely always medal in A. Which obviously is unfortunate, but it is still another way for music education to continue at a somewhat high level, even if it isn't in the same format as it was previously. The only thing I am really scared for MC at this point in time (outside of Maybe funding? not too sure how the school's finances are of rn but I assume they aren't anywhere near what they used to be even 5 years ago) is if there is a point to where the school just dissolves due to lack of enrollment, which would mean an end to the program obviously I am originally from Frankfort, IL, within the Lincoln-Way district, and have followed the area programs for some time. Even at their height of competitive success in the marching arena, Marian Catholic always seemed like the little engine that could. They always pushed the envelope, without the public funding, in an area that was not exactly known as more than a working middle-class group of suburbs, (including some of the poorest per capita) in the US. Obviously, a lot of that has to do with Greg Bimm's talent and vision as well as the racial & religious demographics, but a pair of housing+economic calamities have engulfed much of that section of the Chicago area and many catholics have simply moved out & away. Marian is probably still the best educational offering in that group of suburbs (and for portions of Chicago proper & northwest Indiana), but other catholic schools have been able to maintain their enrollment figures while Marian appears to be more and more on an island. It isn't the band. The band is probably one of the best things that this school has going for it. The academics used to be extremely top notch, and I think that they've obviously relaxed them a bit for enrollment purposes. It's different now. I think that Marian is in trouble as an institution. Unless there is an economic miracle of sorts that drives a ton of interest in the depressed southland, I don't see the school growing and believe that we will see a steady decline in enrollment, unless school choice becomes more of a mainstream idea. The decline of Marian Catholic as a hyper-competitive and successful band (at the highest level of the activity) is not due to erosion of leadership, staffing, or support. Simply put, the numbers are not there. The small things that helped contribute (like Catholic grade schools that used to 'feed' into the high school & had small band programs of their own) to the growth and maintenance of the band program simply isn't much there anymore. The band is quite a bit smaller, but I guarantee if they were located a few zip codes west, most likely, this would not be nearly the issue it has now become. I wish them well. I taught in a catholic school for a few years in the Chicago region and one thing I know for certain -- regardless of marching band -- their symphonic band remains phenomenal.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Jun 13, 2022 15:19:54 GMT -6
Marian in Class A would be far from a bad thing. It would guarantee them a Saturday night performance, and allow an opportunity for Mr. Bimm to eventually retire on a high note. exactly!
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Post by yayband914 on Jun 14, 2022 11:09:21 GMT -6
Confirmed:
Monrovia H.S., IN (website calendar)
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