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Post by MarchingBand4Life on Nov 16, 2021 11:24:50 GMT -6
As I sat in the stands for 1 prelim day and most of semis and finals, something got me thinking....
The Finalist bands mostly had elaborate shows.... 1 and done uniforms/costumes. Expensive (mostly professionally constructed) props. multiple tailers/box trucks to carry said props, large staffs, outsourced designs, music, choreo, electronics.
I've heard that one or more top 6 bands have budgets north of $1M, even as high as 1.5M
Made me wonder.... Are there bands in the last decade that have continued success making finals with budgets that are more modest? (Less than $500k).
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Post by Allohak on Nov 16, 2021 11:27:02 GMT -6
You would be surprised by how not-professionally-made all those props actually are
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Post by hostrauser on Nov 16, 2021 11:38:34 GMT -6
Forget the "private schools are all rich" stereotype. Marian Catholic does a whole lot with very little. I don't think their annual budget for marching band is very gigantic, certainly not compared to most other Semifinalists.
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Post by MarchingBand4Life on Nov 16, 2021 11:55:44 GMT -6
Forget the "private schools are all rich" stereotype. Marian Catholic does a whole lot with very little. I don't think their annual budget for marching band is very gigantic, certainly not compared to most other Semifinalists. MC is a great example of what I'm talking about. Long history of BOA success. Solid at execution. But as budgets have grown, has MC been left back as a semi finalist due in any part to not having a high budget? Back in my day, MC was always in finals. But that's before mega props, 1-and-done uniforms, big staffs and high-buck outsourced drill, music, choreo, etc. |
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Post by cp823 on Nov 16, 2021 12:09:48 GMT -6
Leander was top half at grand Nats in 2019 with a budget of less than $400k
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Post by paddy on Nov 16, 2021 12:20:47 GMT -6
You would be surprised by how not-professionally-made all those props actually are You get this weird intersection of what constitutes "professionally made". School 1 - pays a shop to build their prop - clearly professionally made School 2 - a bunch of band parents who are crafty DIY types, figure to how to build something based on online pictures and trial and error - clearly NOT professionally made School 3 - a bunch of band parents who are eager and talented are led by another band parent who works in an applicable field (welding, carpentry, fabrication, engineering, etc) - semi-professionally made? School 4 - a group of parents who are skilled professionals build the props utilizing resources from their day jobs and donate their time - mostly professionally made? It is still a matter of resources. Bigger schools, in bigger communities have a bigger base of talent to draw from. |
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 16, 2021 12:21:31 GMT -6
Made me wonder.... Are there bands in the last decade that have continued success making finals with budgets that are more modest? (Less than $500k). You can't really just base it on a number. Ronald Reagan was a solid finalist this year wearing their traditional uniforms and using no props. But with the expense to travel to GN - airfare, hotels, shuttles, and food for 250+ people, diesel for getting all the front ensemble and other instruments to and from Indy, renting rehearsal space, etc. - in addition to their other competitions - $500,000 total for the year would have been a shoestring budget. |
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Post by paddy on Nov 16, 2021 12:22:57 GMT -6
Leander was top half at grand Nats in 2019 with a budget of less than $400k Is this a argument for or against bug budgets? FYI - $400k is a lot of money for a marching band show. I know a local program (that isn't too shabby in the competition world) that has a budget of ~$250k for marching band and 4 winter groups combined. |
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Post by paddy on Nov 16, 2021 12:25:59 GMT -6
Made me wonder.... Are there bands in the last decade that have continued success making finals with budgets that are more modest? (Less than $500k). You can't really just base it on a number. Ronald Reagan was a solid finalist this year wearing their traditional uniforms and using no props. But with the expense to travel to GN - airfare, hotels, shuttles, and food for 250+ people, diesel for getting all the front ensemble and other instruments to and from Indy, renting rehearsal space, etc. - in addition to their other competitions - $500,000 total for the year would have been a shoestring budget. I tend to separate travel from show expense when I think about and analyze this. What a program spends on the show (design, uniforms, props, staff) is a good comparison point. It takes out the distance factor when comparing a band like Brownsburg/Carmel, Fishers to BA, Leander, CJT. |
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Post by thewho on Nov 16, 2021 12:26:39 GMT -6
Forget the "private schools are all rich" stereotype. Marian Catholic does a whole lot with very little. I don't think their annual budget for marching band is very gigantic, certainly not compared to most other Semifinalists. MC is a great example of what I'm talking about. Long history of BOA success. Solid at execution. But as budgets have grown, has MC been left back as a semi finalist due in any part to not having a high budget? Back in my day, MC was always in finals. But that's before mega props, 1-and-done uniforms, big staffs and high-buck outsourced drill, music, choreo, etc. Marian Catholic has not been lucky in recent years as the school population has dwindled. That obviously plays a role in the band, as MC is much more student-led program than most (as I understand it), losing so much of the experienced upperclassmen that Bimm relies on. The program also have one of the most excurtiaing methods of education where they take students that have never touched instruments and teach them to play. This has been a constant under Bimm's tenure. He has lost some incredible educators that assisted him to different programs over the years (Bobby Lambert with Wando comes to mind). While this is the case for Marian Catholic, this is not a good example as MC is very far from the norm. It is not impossible to succeed without all of the above. Again, there are few programs that can afford specialized props from specific purposes, but faaaar more are made out of volunteer only. The only costs the programs incur with these props are materials. Believe me, a lot of these props are much more crude than they are. The judges in the box usually can't tell. It is very possible to succeed without the one-and-done uniforms. It's typically an added effect that can be done well when done well... But ask any judges about it and you'll hear more stories of bands just looking even more forgettable. It's cost-effective in some manners, but usually ends up being a money wash. There are indeed a few programs that go to big-time designers, but you'll be surprised at how many programs tend to get the shaft from these designers. Many are certainly in demand, but that's because it's a very, very tiny pool to break into (much less being almost impossible for most), so bands will go to those people with the success in their resume. However, these designers are almost certainly busy with their main bands and tend to shaft those who pay them with almost comical stock shows. In most cases, it's usually better to go with one that has unproven success but experienced and eager to break through. Before you mention Cartwright.... He's a very far exception to the rule. Even with Cartwright, there are some bands that don't get his best and end up with near-recycled shows- but they keep going to him because those shows work. There are plenty that have clients, but even so, they struggle with giving them enough time and effort. I would not recommend you look at Grand Nationals at a standard of the activity. This is easily the highest of highest honors and you'd bet those that can toss money at this will almost certainly do so to gain an advantage. |
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Post by cp823 on Nov 16, 2021 12:26:50 GMT -6
Leander was top half at grand Nats in 2019 with a budget of less than $400k Is this a argument for or against bug budgets? FYI - $400k is a lot of money for a marching band show. I know a local program (that isn't too shabby in the competition world) that has a budget of ~$250k for marching band and 4 winter groups combined. Neither, just offering up a program that fits OP’s criteria. |
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Post by marchingmaniac on Nov 16, 2021 13:42:52 GMT -6
There are indeed a few programs that go to big-time designers, but you'll be surprised at how many programs tend to get the shaft from these designers. Many are certainly in demand, but that's because it's a very, very tiny pool to break into (much less being almost impossible for most), so bands will go to those people with the success in their resume. However, these designers are almost certainly busy with their main bands and tend to shaft those who pay them with almost comical stock shows. In most cases, it's usually better to go with one that has unproven success but experienced and eager to break through. Before you mention Cartwright.... He's a very far exception to the rule. Even with Cartwright, there are some bands that don't get his best and end up with near-recycled shows- but they keep going to him because those shows work. There are plenty that have clients, but even so, they struggle with giving them enough time and effort. From firsthand experience I can attest to this. A lot of the big name designers and drill writers have a lot of clients and don't have near enough time to be able to design or write for each of them. When I was a student I remember my junior and senior year our band was able to secure the services of a top tier designer and drill writer that people on this forum would definitely know of. Yet while we received drill and music for the first half of our show at the start of the season for us to work on, when it came time to put the rest of our show on the field we ended up waiting weeks past the time from when the same designer and drill writer said they would have the rest of our show ready for us to put on the field. Ultimately our directors had to finish writing the drill and music on their own so that we would have enough time to be able to put it on the field. We ended up doing fairly well in both seasons so it wasn't a huge deal but it did leave a bit of a sour taste in my mouth when it came to some of those big-time designers. |
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Post by nomorehoney on Nov 16, 2021 13:50:21 GMT -6
As I sat in the stands for 1 prelim day and most of semis and finals, something got me thinking.... The Finalist bands mostly had elaborate shows.... 1 and done uniforms/costumes. Expensive (mostly professionally constructed) props. multiple tailers/box trucks to carry said props, large staffs, outsourced designs, music, choreo, electronics. I've heard that one or more top 6 bands have budgets north of $1M, even as high as 1.5M Made me wonder.... Are there bands in the last decade that have continued success making finals with budgets that are more modest? (Less than $500k). I don't want to spread any misinformation or speak on O'Fallon's behalf (as I didn't know that much about the behind the scenes stuff when I was there) but I distinctly remember the budget of either 2017, 2018, or 2019 being around 300-400k. Perhaps all of those years fit within that frame. I still feel like that is a lot of money in comparison to the budget that a school like Marian Catholic might have. |
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Post by srv1084 on Nov 16, 2021 19:24:02 GMT -6
I mentioned this in a separate thread, but a while back I tried going down the rabbit hole by searching for non-profit 990 filings to get a sense of what some of the top bands were spending. I quickly learned that it's not reliable as it doesn't always paint a full picture. There are some schools/districts that fund their band programs so well (including annual allocations for instruments, equipment, and instruction) that the relevant booster systems are only in place for things like scholarships and fundraising to offset travel costs, member fees, and entry fees, while other booster programs are there to fund the entire marching band program (instruments, uniforms, travel, instruction, show design, etc). This makes it very difficult to compare.
I guess my question is, how do we begin to define a band's budget, and what do we include? Show design, show-specific uniforms, props, instruments, instrument maintenance, travel, entry fees, only some of the above? How about techs and supplemental instructional staff? There are some districts that hire techs as town/district employees vs. the program needing to pay techs through fundraising or grants/donations. It's a pretty difficult exercise to compare as it's not standard across the activity. I also don't think it's apples-to-apples to compare the budget of a program from let's say Texas or California traveling to GN vs one from Indianapolis attending GN, as the travel costs would obviously skew the budget comparison in the direction of the bands traveling the longest distance. I would be most curious to hear how much programs pay for just show related items, like payments to the design staff (arranger, drill designer, choreographer, etc), props, and show uniforms.
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Post by supersound on Nov 16, 2021 23:09:34 GMT -6
You can always tell an in-house design from a big-name designer show in a good way of course. There’s just a different energy.
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Post by crunchycookie3 on Nov 23, 2021 15:57:27 GMT -6
As far as I’m aware from TX, the only bands within the past decade that have had even mild success with BOA that are economically disadvantaged compared to their competitors are Haltom and LD Bell. I remember looking it up once a while ago and being saddened by the low percentage of Title I schools that have made finals at SASR and Grand Nats. It’s hard to ignore that it is becoming increasingly difficult for less economically privileged bands to compete at at a similar level to the heavy hitters in the nation.
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Post by itsjustband on Nov 23, 2021 17:11:45 GMT -6
From firsthand experience I can attest to this. A lot of the big name designers and drill writers have a lot of clients and don't have near enough time to be able to design or write for each of them. When I was a student I remember my junior and senior year our band was able to secure the services of a top tier designer and drill writer that people on this forum would definitely know of. Yet while we received drill and music for the first half of our show at the start of the season for us to work on, when it came time to put the rest of our show on the field we ended up waiting weeks past the time from when the same designer and drill writer said they would have the rest of our show ready for us to put on the field. Ultimately our directors had to finish writing the drill and music on their own so that we would have enough time to be able to put it on the field. We ended up doing fairly well in both seasons so it wasn't a huge deal but it did leave a bit of a sour taste in my mouth when it came to some of those big-time designers.
^^^ I felt this one, one of my years our drill writer was also one of these well known designers until we got ghosted and only had half of the opener for a solid month and had to find a new drill writer mid season lol
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 23, 2021 17:38:56 GMT -6
I don't exactly know what the budget of GN finalist shows of the past decade have been. It is obvious they are big.
While there has always been some degree of haves and have nots, the expenditure gap is certainly much bigger today than it was 40, 50, 60 years ago. Just look under the history results thread and look at the size of some of the schools that were once among the top competitors in BOA. A lot of them also came from communities which were lower on the median income level (relative to the era of course).
Keep in mind that expense is not just for props, uniforms/attire and a notable designer. Travel and the cost of instructors (number of assistant directors) also come into play. There has also been an awful lot of schools over the last few decades that have cut music from the elementary school (and some instances even middle school music programs have suffered). You need to have a school district that has the economic means to fund a quality music education in elementary through 12th grade, not just high school.
The cost of producing a top level marching band show is also much higher than in decades past (even adjusting for inflation). Back in the 1960s, 1970s and at least in the early 1980s, drill design was far less complex. Many top level band directors wrote their own drill. The guard routine was also much less complex and done in a rigid military style. The musical arrangements were also nothing like what they are today. It was very feasible for a marching band to be very successful with just one talented director and a small support staff. In fact many of the top level bands in the MBA years of the late 1970s and early 1980s had just that. There were a lot of them whose success dramatically dropped off once they lost that director.
It seems that during the course of the 1980s and 1990s that the costs of putting together a top level marching band show increased significantly. This period also saw a lot of programs falter because of school funding cuts. More recently, in the previous couple decades, there has been a growing number of huge high schools from fairly well off suburban communities. These schools have big budgets and have come to dominate the top echelon of marching band programs. Now yes there are exceptions but those exceptions seem to be dropping in number over the years.
As for Marian Catholic; I know that the enrollment at the high school has dropped off significantly in the last decade (keep in mind between 1999 and 2006 they were a Class AAA band). I suspect there has also been a degradation (funding cuts maybe) to the music education of many of the elementary/middle school programs that typically feed students into Marian.
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Post by hostrauser on Nov 24, 2021 8:26:57 GMT -6
The musical arrangements were also nothing like what they are today. It was very feasible for a marching band to be very successful with just one talented director and a small support staff. In fact many of the top level bands in the MBA years of the late 1970s and early 1980s had just that. There were a lot of them whose success dramatically dropped off once they lost that director. Kenneth Snoek at Lake Park H.S., IL is a perfect example. He built Lake Park into a powerhouse in the 1980s and 1990s and won a BOA title. He also arranged their wind book each season, IIRC. Once he left, the band began a slow but steady decline and hasn't been the same since. |
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Post by dbalash on Nov 24, 2021 15:56:54 GMT -6
As for Marian Catholic; I know that the enrollment at the high school has dropped off significantly in the last decade (keep in mind between 1999 and 2006 they were a Class AAA band). I suspect there has also been a degradation (funding cuts maybe) to the music education of many of the elementary/middle school programs that typically feed students into Marian. My understanding is that this was done purposefully, as the administration prefers a student body of around 1,000, compared to 1,600, which is about where it was when I graduated in 2005. It's a little bit of both, between funding cuts for music and feeder schools closing. Marian has probably lost 10 (if not more) feeder middle schools as the Archdiocese of Chicago continues to close schools due to low enrollment, in addition to merging parishes and closing churches in the process. The public schools continue to get hit hard, and that's not going to change anytime soon. |
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 24, 2021 17:02:19 GMT -6
As for Marian Catholic; I know that the enrollment at the high school has dropped off significantly in the last decade (keep in mind between 1999 and 2006 they were a Class AAA band). I suspect there has also been a degradation (funding cuts maybe) to the music education of many of the elementary/middle school programs that typically feed students into Marian. My understanding is that this was done purposefully, as the administration prefers a student body of around 1,000, compared to 1,600, which is about where it was when I graduated in 2005. It's a little bit of both, between funding cuts for music and feeder schools closing. Marian has probably lost 10 (if not more) feeder middle schools as the Archdiocese of Chicago continues to close schools due to low enrollment, in addition to merging parishes and closing churches in the process. The public schools continue to get hit hard, and that's not going to change anytime soon. Thanks for the info. I did not realize the drop in enrollment was done purposefully, but that makes sense. I did read an article a few years back about the dropping enrollment in the catholic schools across Chicago and figured that had been having impacts on Marian Catholic. I know in the late 1980s and 1990s Marian was said to be pulling in a lot of students that already had a strong music education background before they even entered Marian. I know there were a lot of stories of kids switching instruments when they entered the Marian band (perhaps to balance the number of musicians in each section), but they still had already had a music background. |
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