So many questions….

[ksbanddad]

Hello all- relatively new to marching band, we were in Indy last week and I have so many questions.
1. When did marching band competitions become partial dances? Seems as though a handful of schools were dancing.
2. Many of schools don’t even march while playing. They mostly play while standing still and march when not playing. Should this be scored lower?
3. Not to take away from Broken Arrow or the Texas bands, but it seems that they start with 10+ points before they even play a note because of who the school is or where they are from. The judges seem incredibly bias to these schools.
4. I’m not from Avon, but how did they NOT win!

I left thinking BOA is not very fair or honest in their scoring system. A little disheartening for the kids I’m sure. They put in hundreds of hours of work knowing that if they are not from Broken Arrow or Texas they have no chance.

[josephbandfan]

Nov 17, 2021 13:21:13 GMT -6 ksbanddad said:

Hello all- relatively new to marching band, we were in Indy last week and I have so many questions.
1. When did marching band competitions become partial dances? Seems as though a handful of schools were dancing.
2. Many of schools don’t even march while playing. They mostly play while standing still and march when not playing. Should this be scored lower?
3. Not to take away from Broken Arrow or the Texas bands, but it seems that they start with 10+ points before they even play a note because of who the school is or where they are from. The judges seem incredibly bias to these schools.
4. I’m not from Avon, but how did they NOT win!

I left thinking BOA is not very fair or honest in their scoring system. A little disheartening for the kids I’m sure. They put in hundreds of hours of work knowing that if they are not from Broken Arrow or Texas they have no chance.

Considering Indiana holds half of the championships in the last 2 decades, I don't think the "if they are not from Broken Arrow or Texas they have no chance" argument really holds. Texas has only taken home the eagle 5 times in the entire history of GN.

[cp823]

1. February 31st, 2012
2. Reply hazy, try again later
3.
4. Hi not from Avon, who are you talking about here?

[Shroom]

1. Choreography has been a part of BOA for a while now. HS bands typically follow the trends set in DCI, so you can look to that for when it all started.
2. Kind of vague, but the whole "park and play" has been a thing in the marching arts since the 80s, it's nothing new. Usually a lot of the music played nowadays is a lot more technical than what it used to be too, especially with lower bands, so while it is a bit more prevalent there is a definite trade off. There are a lot more soloists and solo features now too since mics are easy to get nowadays, so typically bands won't play during those.
3. They score better than most bands because they are better than most bands. I'm a Midwesterner, but thats just the truth. Texas has a lot of things going for it that allow the kids to get as good as they are and work as hard as they do, and Broken Arrow is Broken Arrow.
4. Avon is my favorite band of all time and they've medalist every year for like 14 years straight or something insane like that, and they deserve their placements. That means they deserve their high placements and their "lower" placements too, and they'll win again finally when they're the cleanest band in the nation, but they definitely weren't the cleanest in the nation this year.

[ilikeguard]

Welcome to the world of marching band! A lot of your questions seem like they’re a little biased or influenced by some salty opinions that some in the band community tend to have…going into this next season, my advice is to not listen to what anyone says and try to look at everything with new eyes. You’ll form some of the same opinions, but if you go into it without the prejudgement that some others have you’ll come to appreciate a lot of the really fantastic ways bands are designing and executing their performances. Choreography can really aid in a band’s VGE- and it’s hard to get every student, 95% of them not trained dancers, to all move so fluidly! Watch Blue Springs and their phenomenal grasp on body movement. It’s incredibly impressive! As for park-and-bark, while yes, it can get old watching bands just stand there, the majority of them only stand and play for the powerful hits or particularly difficult passages. It’s hard to do that sitting down in concert band, so it’s even cooler seeing groups do it on their feet interspersed with music!

Oh, and as for the Texas and Broken Arrow thing- this is only BA’s fourth win in almost 50 years of BOA and not a single Texas band medaled this year. Vandegrift’s win in 2019 was their first. It’s honestly pretty funny to see this opinion and not see Indiana mentioned. All in all, I don’t think bands win because of their name- I think they make a name for themselves by being good.

Don’t shy away from sharing your opinions! That’s what this website is about, after all. Sometimes BOA judges don’t see the same things we see (and likewise, they notice a lot that we don’t). I definitely can’t claim that my opinions aren’t 100% biased towards my favorite groups or designers. The best thing to remember is that while we’re here to build up bands, we aren’t here to break any of them down. As you watch more groups, think of the positives rather than the negatives! It makes the activity so much more fun to watch when you say “I liked they way they did that!” rather than “that wasn’t very good”.

[trombonium]

Regarding question 3:

The fact that Grand Nationals is held in Indiana creates a strong selection bias as far as Texan and Oklahoman bands go. What you're seeing at Indianapolis is only the top echelon of bands from these states, because the average band not from Indiana or a surrounding state cannot afford the cost to attend Grand Nationals. Hence only the best-funded and most successful bands end up there.

In the case of Texas, for example, the least successful band (by placement alone) at Nats this year was Round Rock. Round Rock is widely recognized as one of the best bands in the state of Texas. If you were to analyze the San Antonio Super Regional, for example, you would see many Texan bands with relatively poor results, because you're seeing a much more diverse cross-section of Texan bands.

I would actually argue that local bands (Avon, Carmel, Castle, etc) have a strong advantage at nationals simply due to the ease of travel, but that is another discussion entirely. . .

[ilikeguard]

Nov 17, 2021 15:28:42 GMT -6 trombonium said:

Regarding question 3:

The fact that Grand Nationals is held in Indiana creates a strong selection bias as far as Texan and Oklahoman bands go. What you're seeing at Indianapolis is only the top echelon of bands from these states, because the average band not from Indiana or a surrounding state cannot afford the cost to attend Grand Nationals. Hence only the best-funded and most successful bands end up there.

In the case of Texas, for example, the least successful band (by placement alone) at Nats this year was Round Rock. Round Rock is widely recognized as one of the best bands in the state of Texas. If you were to analyze the San Antonio Super Regional, for example, you would see many Texan bands with relatively poor results, because you're seeing a much more diverse cross-section of Texan bands.

I would actually argue that local bands (Avon, Carmel, Castle, etc) have a strong advantage at nationals simply due to the ease of travel, but that is another discussion entirely. . .

And so we return to the “GN should be on a rotation” debate again hahaha

[ksbanddad]

Nov 17, 2021 15:08:13 GMT -6 ilikeguard said:

Welcome to the world of marching band! A lot of your questions seem like they’re a little biased on influenced by some salty opinions that some in the band community tend to have…going into this next season, my advice is to not listen to what anyone says and try to look at everything with new eyes. You’ll form some of the same opinions, but if you go into it without the prejudgement that some others have you’ll come to appreciate a lot of the really fantastic ways bands are designing and executing their performances. Choreography can really aid in a band’s VGE- and it’s hard to get every student, 95% of them not trained dancers, to all move so fluidly! Watch Blue Springs and their phenomenal grasp on body movement. It’s incredibly impressive! As for park-and-bark, while yes, it can get old watching bands just stand there, the majority of them only stand and play for the powerful hits or particularly difficult passages. It’s hard to do that sitting down in concert band, so it’s even cooler seeing groups do it on their feet interspersed with music!

Oh, and as for the Texas and Broken Arrow thing- this is only BA’s third win in almost 50 years of BOA and not a single Texas band medaled this year. Vandegrift’s win in 2019 was their first. It’s honestly pretty funny to see this opinion and not see Indiana mentioned. All in all, I don’t think bands win because of their name- I think they make a name for themselves by being good.

Don’t shy away from sharing your opinions! That’s what this website is about, after all. Sometimes BOA judges don’t see the same things we see (and likewise, they notice a lot that we don’t). I definitely can’t claim that my opinions aren’t 100% biased towards my favorite groups or designers. The best thing to remember is that while we’re here to build up bands, we aren’t here to break any of them down. As you watch more groups, think of the positives rather than the negatives! It makes the activity so much more fun to watch when you say “I liked they way they did that!” rather than “that wasn’t very good”.

Thank you! Good insight!

[rickofavon]

Nov 17, 2021 13:21:13 GMT -6 ksbanddad said:

Hello all- relatively new to marching band, we were in Indy last week and I have so many questions.
1. When did marching band competitions become partial dances? Seems as though a handful of schools were dancing.
2. Many of schools don’t even march while playing. They mostly play while standing still and march when not playing. Should this be scored lower?
3. Not to take away from Broken Arrow or the Texas bands, but it seems that they start with 10+ points before they even play a note because of who the school is or where they are from. The judges seem incredibly bias to these schools.
4. I’m not from Avon, but how did they NOT win!

I left thinking BOA is not very fair or honest in their scoring system. A little disheartening for the kids I’m sure. They put in hundreds of hours of work knowing that if they are not from Broken Arrow or Texas they have no chance.

1. Body and movement from my experience have been a thing since I was in it 03-07. Avon always had some kind of body. After I graduated bands have definitely upped the "dancing" or body movement without playing as a means to further enhance visual effect and relay the music for general effect.

2. The Park and Bark argument. Certainly a thing back in the day. Design-wise many designers might find holding at certain musical moments if more effective than marching to get a visual/musical effect across. I don't believe PnB is utilized all that often anymore. When you see bands not marching it is for design reasons.

3. BA, Texas bands do attend regionals as well so they aren't completely unknown to judges. I don't know if historical quality impacts judges initial starting point or not - or if it should. Take Avon,  right, perennial podium placer. One could argue they have a less than stellar clean show - they are also likely to get the benefit of the doubt on a design/performance that isn't the best. When Vandergrift won Finals in their first appearance it wasn't like no one in the activity had seen them before. They attended regionals and people were aware of them. They were lights out musically in 2019. Any time you play Mozart and play it well you have my vote.

4. The roll of the dice, man. It's an adjugated sport that's subjective. Watching on a stream at a friends house there was a few things musically they could have done better. Judges felt that BA had the GE and visual, Flower Mound the sound. If you look at the recap you do see some variety in scoring for the finals panel which always makes things interesting.


You can have that opinion but would you rather have a system that simply looks at ticks and doesn't consider the difficulty of demand or quality of execution? I think BoA has one of the most demanding adjugated philosophies. They aren't ranking these bands. They are scoring bands against a particular scoring system rather than against each other. (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) All kids put in the same hard work and dedication to craft their shows and improve their execution during the season regardless of school. With your statement there I could say the same thing for schools that look at Avon, Carmel, Marian Catholic or any perennial finalist.

To further my point. Since 1975 starting with MBA Indiana bands have had 123 placements in finals that ranged from 10-14 competitors throughout the years. The next closest state is TX with 75 appearances and IL with 74. There's only been 3 Grand Nationals Finals without an Indiana band. MBA Days:  75, 76 and once during the BOA timeframe back in 91.