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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Oct 10, 2022 16:49:38 GMT -6
I'll stick up for the superior musicality of Texas bands all day every day, but the only mistake I consistently feel a need to call out is anyone equating fewer technical passages in Carmel's recent music books with more simplicity and less demand. 2018 in particular. Their shows are built off of huge, long, sweeping, giant full ensemble phrases that we rarely hear from anyone else in the country, top Texas bands included, and a level of exposure in their wind book that again is almost impossible to find from any other top marching band. Don't get me wrong, Hebron is the epitome of demand and I truly cannot think of another group that could even think about cleanly executing their music books, but I feel the same about Carmel's exposure, balance, dynamic, and phrasing demands. Just two different branches of demand, and each band the innovator and leader of each branch. But, Hebron's insane difficulty aside, give me technical passages and a gock block and I'll clean those all day; perfecting Carmel's characteristic massive phrases over a season sounds like a nightmare. Different branches and approaches to their sound profile, exactly. It would be a disservice to call what Carmel does “easy” for sure. It’s all about how intentional and deliberate you are with everything you do, and you know that those musical arrangements cater to their strengths when it comes to the pedagogy being taught. It all is made to serve their whole band well when marching season ultimately ends. If they achieve what they do out there in the heat(for Texas😰) or cold(poor Indy🥶😂) it just makes them much more equipped to handle whatever material you throw at them during concert season. Having that variety of challenges that the kids see at Carmel, Hebron, and any top band in the fall, no doubt makes them successful later on To put a long message short, if what Carmel were doing were easy, they would not be nearly as successful as they are over time. Period. I somewhat disagree. No doubt that Carmels chamber sound is unmatched in the business. Carmels chamber music style is mostly long phraseology, long tones. expressionist. Technically basic to Intermediate not “easy”. Stating that this style is less demanding in terms of levels (Basic, Intermediate and Advanced and all gradations in between) does not demean a program or it’s success. Carmels music teams (Saucedo) writes or purchase music books to scale of the present student skill set. Plus it fits thier overall design these few decades. Its likened to Avon’s team designing their visual show around those fantastic guards while adopting low technical high brass books or the way non elite Texas bands forego a difficult visual demand while attempting really hard and nuanced music. Most HS Music directors know their programs strength and weaknesses. Its obvious what weaknesses Carmel has to overcome. I was not trying to ruffle anyone feathers earlier but merely expressed my opinion. Marching band preferences and adjudication is still subjective and we can needlessly debate which camp “has” the keys to the kingdom all day. Those in the camp that say Heb didn’t deserve to take DFW are not only differing in opinions with marching band novices like myself but with the BOA adjudicators that night. Everyone (Educators, adjudicators, Pundits and fans) can disagree and yet everyone can still make a sophist argument for their position. Its subjective. It’s Band Baby!
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Post by Shroom on Oct 10, 2022 17:57:36 GMT -6
TIL Broken Arrow and Carmel do "simple" shows and Hebron '21 never got clean If you compare BA and Carmel shows to other top bands, they are simple r. If you can't understand that the term "simple" acts a comparative term to other bands in their caliber, that's on you, not me. Carmel shows aren't easy marching band shows by any means and it's pretty obvious that I never said that in my post, I said that compared to other bands in their tier like FloMo/CTJ/Heb, they're eas ier. A band can play into its strength and perfect what it's good at, but just because there is difficulty in achieving perfection, that doesn't mean that the literal material their playing necessarily has to be difficult. A band can do what they do better than anyone else and there is insane rigor in that, but that doesn't mean that what they do is necessarily difficult, especially when what you're against is a band jazz running and playing sixteenth notes at 180 BPM. An intermediate level piece can be difficult to play if you try to perfect it, but that doesn't make the piece itself difficult.
Carmel's shows exhibit intense difficulty when it comes to mastering their tone and having the ability to be spread across and entire football field while doing so. That is not something that 99% of bands can do, but there are other bands that play at that spread level while not playing half/quarter notes. The easiest example is 2018 Carmel vs. FloMo in terms of music. At the hit right before they start playing the Mahler again towards the end of the show, they are spread out across the entire field and the crescendo, tone and release there was quite literally perfect. FloMo was also spread across the entire field almost the entire show that year and what they did musically was technically more difficult than what Carmel did, but they were dirtier. Both bands did difficult things, but what Carmel did wasn't difficult because the demand of their show was that which warranted an eagle, they did something difficult by perfecting something simple which is basically something that no other band can do, and that's what warranted the eagle. Their music was more deliberate and they played to their strengths to the point of perfection, but that doesn't mean that they had a brass book anywhere near what most of top Texas bands had that year. Carmel's shows always have rigor, but to claim that it rivals what other bands their tier typically do is just incorrect and that was obviously the point I was making. In terms of Heb 2021, it just wasn't as clean as Carmel/BA last year. It was cleaner than 99.9% of bands, but it wasn't cleaner than the two. The show and the ensemble were insanely clean, but when you're talking about the top 3 bands in the nation, there is going to be a band that isn't as clean as the other 2. My point was pretty obviously that Hebron never reached the same level of the two outside of technical musical ability due to the rigor of the show, and while that means that they weren't cleaner than two two, they were still clean and I still consider them to be the "best" overall band of the three.The overall reason why I name dropped so many bands like Carmel, Heb, etc in the first place is for them to act as general references of how bands tend to carry themselves in terms of show design. Even if I were to cede that Carmel's shows contained the same rigor as other bands of their caliber (which I'm not), it wouldn't affect my overall point regarding the relationship between scoring and rigor, and that I don't believe that the current scoring system properly accounts for the rigor that many bands both at the top and bottom levels achieve in a meaningful way.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 10, 2022 19:16:45 GMT -6
🤔
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Post by yayband914 on Oct 10, 2022 19:32:30 GMT -6
I’m torn between loving the debate, and keeping in mind that it’s just band.
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Post by Shroom on Oct 10, 2022 19:34:39 GMT -6
I’m torn between loving the debate, and keeping in mind that it’s just band. The thread locks in like like a few hours so gotta make the most of it
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Post by vidal28rdg on Oct 10, 2022 23:01:15 GMT -6
Also to the mods, I don’t think there’s anything to be concerned about here with the discussions taking place here, everyone’s being civil
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Post by Jake W. on Oct 11, 2022 2:42:32 GMT -6
I somewhat disagree. No doubt that Carmels chamber sound is unmatched in the business. Carmels chamber music style is mostly long phraseology, long tones. expressionist. Technically basic to Intermediate not “easy”. Stating that this style is less demanding in terms of levels (Basic, Intermediate and Advanced and all gradations in between) does not demean a program or it’s success. Carmels music teams (Saucedo) writes or purchase music books to scale of the present student skill set. Plus it fits thier overall design these few decades. Its likened to Avon’s team designing their visual show around those fantastic guards while adopting low technical high brass books or the way non elite Texas bands forego a difficult visual demand while attempting really hard and nuanced music. Most HS Music directors know their programs strength and weaknesses. Its obvious what weaknesses Carmel has to overcome. I was not trying to ruffle anyone feathers earlier but merely expressed my opinion. Marching band preferences and adjudication is still subjective and we can needlessly debate which camp “has” the keys to the kingdom all day. Those in the camp that say Heb didn’t deserve to take DFW are not only differing in opinions with marching band novices like myself but with the BOA adjudicators that night. Everyone (Educators, adjudicators, Pundits and fans) can disagree and yet everyone can still make a sophist argument for their position. Its subjective. It’s Band Baby! I totally understand this perspective - it's quite common. Hell, it still even exists to some extent in the band director world - state boards labelling a piece like Eric Whitacre's "Sleep" a Grade 3 or something of that nature (ugh). Assessing demand simply based on technical structure is not a complete picture, though, and there's nothing subjective about it. Carmel's 2018, '19, & '21 shows in particular contained huge full ensemble builds that led into long, sustained phrases; I've had a hard time finding any other band in the last few years outside of Hebron that fields these sorts of full ensemble builds that lead into loooooong melodic phrases with growth and direction. It's just not something that's present in the marching band world, and for good reason: it's an incredibly difficult thing to pull off. As I mentioned earlier, give me a gock block and a few hours to clean a double tonguing brass or scalular woodwind passage and I've got you covered. But it's an entirely different beast to get a group of winds to achieve the physical prowess needed and maintain the ensemble listening skills that make a sweeping, expansive phrase (again, complete with growth and direction) possible, especially while pairing it with movement. Just as a fun exercise, I'd challenge you or anyone else to find examples of a Texas group, or any other top group, from the last 3 competitive seasons who match Carmel's full ensemble phrase lengths and sustain demands for those phrases, and with growth or dynamic contrast added in. I say three seasons because I feel that's when Carmel has really developed this orchestral style to their music books. Hebron's for sure got some examples, especially the "Impossible Dream" lines near the end of their 2019 show. Beyond that...the current iteration of Carmel reigns supreme. It's a category that Lawrence Central, Lassiter, Marcus, & Marian Catholic have all owned at times, but not many beyond that. In fact, many people made the same crows throughout the Drinkwater years about a supposed simplicity in Marcus' wind books, when they were anything but. Don't mistake a lack of flashiness for a lack of demand. Most instructors would tell you that it's a nightmare to pull together these massive, lengthy full ensemble passages and to make them sound good; that's why they're rarely written to be accompanied with movement on the field, or even written at all. This is to take nothing away from Hebron; I consistently maintain that they incorporate technical demand FAR beyond the limits of anything we've seen from a high school group, ever, and then always outdo themselves the next year. They are in a category of their own. But the recent bands Carmel has fielded have really stretched the wind book envelope as well, just in a different direction. I keep meaning to write up a few essays over in the General Discussion on what I think are the most difficult music books ever fielded - maybe I'll get to that once the season ends. It's a fascinating topic for me! A lot of it started around totally understandable accusations of simplicity slung around Carmel's 2018 championship show, while I just sat back in awe of the exposure in their wind book that season and thought about how I wouldn't touch that Siegfried's Horn Call with a ten foot pole (just kidding, I'd love to dig my teeth into something like that with 20 mellos). It got me thinking of the various aspects of demand and which ones are easier to teach & clean. I really do understand how technical passages read as more difficult to the average band parent, fan, or student, though.
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Post by cinnamonpromenade on Oct 11, 2022 4:06:12 GMT -6
Beyond that...the current iteration of Carmel reigns supreme. It's a category that Lawrence Central, Lassiter, Marcus, & Marian Catholic have all owned at times, but not many beyond that. I'm so glad you brought this up. A friend and I were watching a video of Marian's show from this past Saturday and noted how their style of music simply doesn't exist in marching band anymore. (I'm so curious to see how, or even if, the Grand Nats panel will reward them come November.) Marcus ca. 2006-2012 feels like the inflection point of two major music approaches. They were the hybrid of the incredible concert approach of yore (e.g., Marian Catholic 2000, Lawrence Central 2001, Lassiter 2002) and the wildly technical phrases of now (e.g., most of Texas, Tarpon Springs, Avon?). Whereas the top groups were once those that displayed the highest quality of sound, more and more groups have found success by displaying greater quantity of skills. For example: • There are numerous Texas groups that impress via rhythmically precise passages and sheer volume. • Avon winning the Visual Caption at Grand Nats in 2005 proved that Doing A Lot visually could launch you to the next level. • Tarpon Springs combined both those philosophies AND showed off their insane guard to earn their 2014 championship. • And then there was Broken Arrow winning the Visual Caption in 2010 showing that (arguably) less demand could still earn success—so long as you're crystal clean and that your staging is effective. (Hence how 25% of last year's GN finalists were Wes Cartwright clients.) While it's cool to see how this activity has evolved and webbed out so rapidly—there are now so many viable strategies for achieving success; you don't just have to be as talented as Greg Bimm or Randy Greenwell or Alfred Watkins or Amanda Drinkwater, yay!—it does make me miss the kind of sound these directors curated. It's great that clever strategies (shortcuts?) can lead to effective design, but there's nothing more satisfying to me than a beautiful concert sound on the band field (and knowing how much work it took to get there. It can't be faked!). I digress... Maybe I just have rose colored glasses for the kind of shows I grew up on. Maybe there is still room for these "old school" groups to be rewarded. Maybe there are current groups (besides Carmel) emphasizing a sonorous concert approach and I'm just unaware. What I'm most sure of is this: this probably warrants its own thread outside the 2022 Dallas/Ft. Worth Regional thread.
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Post by hewhowaits on Oct 11, 2022 7:05:20 GMT -6
I’m torn between loving the debate, and keeping in mind that it’s just band. The thread locks in like like a few hours so gotta make the most of it The thread will move to a different folder. It will not be locked at that time.
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Post by marchingbandfan on Oct 11, 2022 7:43:52 GMT -6
I'm a freshman of one of the bands that made finals here. Wont reveal which one it was for privacy reasons. Was such a fun experience - retreat especially. But damn were Coppell and Marcus ice cold in a good way. Pretty much every band was yelling like crazy and they looked like they were about to go on to perform. Cant wait for the next competition!
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Post by vidal28rdg on Oct 11, 2022 7:56:26 GMT -6
I'm a freshman of one of the bands that made finals here. Wont reveal which one it was for privacy reasons. Was such a fun experience - retreat especially. But damn were Coppell and Marcus ice cold in a good way. Pretty much every band was yelling like crazy and they looked like they were about to go on to perform. Cant wait for the next competition! This competition is one of my absolute favorites, both as a spectator and back in HS performing it. Loved watching all the bands that I could, and now with not having to perform and be with my group much of the day, I had every group in my ear today, it’s one of the best around for sure!
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Post by vidal28rdg on Oct 11, 2022 8:00:25 GMT -6
Beyond that...the current iteration of Carmel reigns supreme. It's a category that Lawrence Central, Lassiter, Marcus, & Marian Catholic have all owned at times, but not many beyond that. I'm so glad you brought this up. A friend and I were watching a video of Marian's show from this past Saturday and noted how their style of music simply doesn't exist in marching band anymore. (I'm so curious to see how, or even if, the Grand Nats panel will reward them come November.) Marcus ca. 2006-2012 feels like the inflection point of two major music approaches. They were the hybrid of the incredible concert approach of yore (e.g., Marian Catholic 2000, Lawrence Central 2001, Lassiter 2002) and the wildly technical phrases of now (e.g., most of Texas, Tarpon Springs, Avon?). Whereas the top groups were once those that displayed the highest quality of sound, more and more groups have found success by displaying greater quantity of skills. For example: • There are numerous Texas groups that impress via rhythmically precise passages and sheer volume. • Avon winning the Visual Caption at Grand Nats in 2005 proved that Doing A Lot visually could launch you to the next level. • Tarpon Springs combined both those philosophies AND showed off their insane guard to earn their 2014 championship. • And then there was Broken Arrow winning the Visual Caption in 2010 showing that (arguably) less demand could still earn success—so long as you're crystal clean and that your staging is effective. (Hence how 25% of last year's GN finalists were Wes Cartwright clients.) While it's cool to see how this activity has evolved and webbed out so rapidly—there are now so many viable strategies for achieving success; you don't just have to be as talented as Greg Bimm or Randy Greenwell or Alfred Watkins or Amanda Drinkwater, yay!—it does make me miss the kind of sound these directors curated. It's great that clever strategies (shortcuts?) can lead to effective design, but there's nothing more satisfying to me than a beautiful concert sound on the band field (and knowing how much work it took to get there. It can't be faked!). I digress... Maybe I just have rose colored glasses for the kind of shows I grew up on. Maybe there is still room for these "old school" groups to be rewarded. Maybe there are current groups (besides Carmel) emphasizing a sonorous concert approach and I'm just unaware. What I'm most sure of is this: this probably warrants its own thread outside the 2022 Dallas/Ft. Worth Regional thread. Marcus definitely had that characteristic clean, refined symphonic sound, they make their first 5 minutes feel like 2 with how effortless it all flows together, a very early 2000’s band, even drum corps feel to their approach. They were also rewarded for their approach in the music caption this past weekend being the closest to Hebron in that area!
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