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Post by Shroom on Apr 25, 2022 7:58:58 GMT -6
I didn't mean to set the world on fire lol
My main point is just to say that a lot of lower ranked bands can't pull trombones off in the same way that others like Hebron and Round Rock can. A lot of the time it seems like designers just throw them into the show to give hit a little more *umph*, which is fine, but it usually sounds horrible, even by the end of the season. Maybe I'm mistaken but it seems like a massive trombone line is more of a Texan thing, which imo contributes a lot to the "Texas loud" stereotype. I think baritone most of the time just sound more refined, which is why most bands use them.
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Post by vidal28rdg on Apr 25, 2022 11:11:59 GMT -6
I didn't mean to set the world on fire lol My main point is just to say that a lot of lower ranked bands can't pull trombones off in the same way that others like Hebron and Round Rock can. A lot of the time it seems like designers just throw them into the show to give hit a little more *umph*, which is fine, but it usually sounds horrible, even by the end of the season. Maybe I'm mistaken but it seems like a massive trombone line is more of a Texan thing, which imo contributes a lot to the "Texas loud" stereotype. I think baritone most of the time just sound more refined, which is why most bands use them. As with many things when talking about what someone’s particular tastes may be, it’s just a case by case basis, doesn’t always achieve what it intends to or it may just simply not be executed well, it’s something that people may disagree on, similar to the costuming revolution, there are some that still fit the mold of the uniforms of old, and those that diverge way far out from that, and usually the thing that sticks out gets the most scrutiny and the *new* concepts that stay tethered to what is familiar may be looked on more favorably, it’s just how people are when responding to change, typically, anyways. I’ll even include one of my main pet peeves of the activity as well, something not at all controversial I bet😂 ahem… BANDS THAT USE AN OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF SYNTH OR DRONE THROUGHOUT THEIR WHOLE SHOW I am not at all subtle about it, and it’s an opinion of mine that is super subjective, as y’all can see😂 also *cough*FloMo 2021*cough* talking to y’all🙃
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Post by hewhowaits on Apr 25, 2022 12:18:08 GMT -6
Reading through this thread and the "Gold Stars in Show Design" thread just provides proof of the varied likes/dislikes amongst us.
Some people's favorite things are others' greatest dislikes. That's part of the beauty of the marching arts - there's something for everyone.
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Post by paddy on Apr 25, 2022 15:14:24 GMT -6
Reading through this thread and the "Gold Stars in Show Design" thread just provides proof of the varied likes/dislikes amongst us. Some people's favorite things are others' greatest dislikes. That's part of the beauty of the marching arts - there's something for everyone. You can't "Both Sides" this issue. This is a worthless take not worthy of debate. Sit there in your wrongness and be wrong.
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Post by trumpet300 on Apr 25, 2022 15:48:07 GMT -6
Reading through this thread and the "Gold Stars in Show Design" thread just provides proof of the varied likes/dislikes amongst us. Some people's favorite things are others' greatest dislikes. That's part of the beauty of the marching arts - there's something for everyone. You can't "Both Sides" this issue. This is a worthless take not worthy of debate. Sit there in your wrongness and be wrong. Um...u good?
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Post by yayband914 on Apr 25, 2022 15:49:24 GMT -6
Reading through this thread and the "Gold Stars in Show Design" thread just provides proof of the varied likes/dislikes amongst us. Some people's favorite things are others' greatest dislikes. That's part of the beauty of the marching arts - there's something for everyone. You can't "Both Sides" this issue. This is a worthless take not worthy of debate. Sit there in your wrongness and be wrong. *pulls up a chair for you*
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Post by paddy on Apr 25, 2022 17:20:24 GMT -6
Check the other design thread guys. It is a joke.
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Post by yayband914 on Apr 25, 2022 18:39:56 GMT -6
Check the other design thread guys. It is a joke. I was gonna say… it seemed uncharacteristic!
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Post by hewhowaits on Apr 25, 2022 19:29:37 GMT -6
Check the other design thread guys. It is a joke. I got the joke.
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Post by paddy on Apr 26, 2022 6:10:29 GMT -6
Check the other design thread guys. It is a joke. I got the joke. It was a stretch but it was entertaining for me.
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Post by hewhowaits on Apr 26, 2022 6:32:12 GMT -6
It was a stretch but it was entertaining for me. I smirked. For perspective, ask Allohak how my smirk compares to a guffaw from most of this world.
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Post by cybrunette on Mar 16, 2023 15:02:52 GMT -6
Ooo this is an interesting thread that was kind of buried lol
There are a few that come to mind for me;
1. It's always bothered me when I hear a show implement the same piece of music in both the opener & closer. I don't mind if you hear hints of it within a new piece in a closer, but it has to be arranged well enough that it blends in a way to have a 'oh yeah' type of callback / reaction rather than just a huge chunk that makes you feel like 'oh we're back to this I guess?'.
2. I've always wondered how much of a game changer it would be if BOA were to limit certain overused pieces being performed at their events which would force bands to open up to different types of music. For example: Samuel Barber's - Symphony No. 1 (& no I am not throwing jabs at Carmel, their 2022 production was definitely beautiful). I just remember my reaction in Semis at GN when the band before them (Brownsburg) played the same exact piece & I didn't get to enjoy Carmels show as much as I wanted to. I just kept thinking about how often you hear not only this piece, but many others just feeling like they're being regurgitated year after year. I remember my high school wouldn't play / consider playing the same piece in concert season no less than 5 years after it was performed, so what if that same idea was brought to the BOA circuit?
3. Someone in an earlier post mentioned ballads being used as a rest period, but to further add to that idea is when ballads are flooded with solos. I love great solos especially on instruments that aren't typically used for them, but spread them out throughout the show so we can get some nice ambient swells in those ballads. I love seeing the same energy of a powerful opener that's carried over into the ballad.
4. When the guard just feels like they're just an attachment to marching bands instead of part of the show.
5. Similar to what I said about guard, when the drumline has no interaction with band or guard & it just feels like they're an isolated island.
6. & of course the obvious, brass double tonging repetitive 16th notes just to show they can double tongue because that's what every other band is doing now a days. I don't mind double tonging when it makes sense. Have a moving 16th run with bits of double tonging here & there or even a feature that's a little more aggressive with technicality.
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Post by checkandclose on Mar 16, 2023 23:38:02 GMT -6
ooooo this is a fun one
1. Something that is hard to explain but is definitely a pet peeve of mine is the very overused happy-to-sad opener-ballad format. The band plays a kind of bittersweet chord to end the opener and show that things are actually not good story-wise, and then BOOM the band is doing some choreo to show how depressed they've become out of nowhere and the color guard is moving props around to reframe the field which is hiding their swing flags that will be revealed to be two at the end of the ballad when the band plays their loud hopeful chord. It feels very formulaic and at this point it's gotten old to me
2. Voice overs, the music should be capable of telling the story on its own. We don't need some random girl to narrate what's happening, that's what the band is for! Non verbal storytelling is one of the beauties of the arts, that's not to say that there are shows where voiceovers do work, but ones where it feels unnecessary for the theming/show it ends up just being annoying
3. Not a pet peeve but I loooooove when bands go completely silent during a show, the effect it has is incredible and I wish more bands did that rather than play all the time
4. Well I guess going off of number 3, while too much of a lack of winds can be annoying, it also bugs me when there are winds playing ALL THE TIME, at least in terms of ensemble. Giving just singular sections, soloists/small ensembles time to do their own thing and leave everyone else to visuals are moments that are just as good. I really wish more bands would give more featuring to their front ensembles too, most bands don't seem to give them the spotlight ever, and when they do it's just a 16th note run or two during a drum feature that no one can hear cause the drums are so loud.
5. Unnecessary props, there are so many shows that I've seen that have so many props to the point that I'm not even focusing on the show anymore and I'm just wondering how much money the show cost them lmao. There was one show in particular that I can't remember the name of, which had so many different types of props that I just didn't know where to look. On the other side though there were also times where I've seen props that just literally serve no purpose other than to cover up the field, and mostly just seem to be in the way. Either way they make the show feel like they would've just been better off without them
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Post by vidal28rdg on Mar 17, 2023 0:54:19 GMT -6
Ooo this is an interesting thread that was kind of buried lol There are a few that come to mind for me; 1. It's always bothered me when I hear a show implement the same piece of music in both the opener & closer. I don't mind if you hear hints of it within a new piece in a closer, but it has to be arranged well enough that it blends in a way to have a 'oh yeah' type of callback / reaction rather than just a huge chunk that makes you feel like 'oh we're back to this I guess?'. I honestly haven’t had an issue with a fun reprise! I do agree that the arrangement and execution are what make it either pop or seem to fall flat and be more on the corny side, but I usually enjoy hearing a reprise of perhaps the main piece used in the show, a motif that was a part of the show throughout, or a little cool rapid-fire of all the musical selections to see if the audience can pick up on it. The last application of a reprise is usually my favorite. I don’t have much to say about your other pet peeves, they are pretty common ones that are pretty understandable haha
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Post by ilikeguard on Mar 17, 2023 18:32:48 GMT -6
1. It's always bothered me when I hear a show implement the same piece of music in both the opener & closer. I don't mind if you hear hints of it within a new piece in a closer, but it has to be arranged well enough that it blends in a way to have a 'oh yeah' type of callback / reaction rather than just a huge chunk that makes you feel like 'oh we're back to this I guess?'. Lol I love how different opinions are on this! I really like it when an entire show is structured around a common piece. It can definitely feel overdone, though! Blue Springs this year is a great example. I really liked it, but I can totally see where some people would think it’s too much. I also grew up on video games and Disney movies, so I’m a sucker for a good leitmotif. In the specific situation you’re describing I think it’d be a bit annoying. I definitely agree that it needs to make sense instead of just being tossed in to feel symmetrical.
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Post by abtwitch on Mar 17, 2023 19:11:21 GMT -6
I'm surprised I haven't commented on this thread yet and people who know me well are probably surprised as well because I am not one to keep silent when I don't like a show's design. Let me try and rapid fire a few.
1. Ignorant and lazy implementation of a foreign culture, i.e. Cycle Song - a pop song inspired by music from Bhutan (which is in the Himalayas) in a show about Egypt (Texas folks should know which show I'm referencing). That's not to say you can't do a show about a foreign culture, just do the most basic of research and try to make it authentic so it can also be a learning experience about world music for your students.
2. These next two are more winter guard focused. Firstly, can we stop doing "phone bad" shows now? We get it, no one is denying the harmful impacts phones have on our attention spans and other aspects of our lives. This one applies to marching band as well, but the biggest offenders tend to be indoors these days.
3. The second winter guard one is can we stop using overly-emotional slower-paced piano covers of popular 70s and 80s songs? It was the upbeat disco groove that made you "want to dance with somebody" that makes those songs so iconic. This one just might be a personal traumatic reaction from the coffee shop across the street from my university exclusively playing these kinds of covers, but that doesn't mean I won't include it on my list.
4. Narration for the sake of narration. I'm a firm believer that you can make basically anything work in a marching band setting, even some of the things I've mentioned above (well, not #1, that just shouldn't be a thing for reasons outside of enjoyment), and that applies to narration as well. There's been a lot of great shows that use narration to elevate and transform a show's design, a great example fresh in our minds is Bluecoat's "Riffs & Revelations", which I think we can all agree would not have been the same without the iconic narration from Brad Mehldau's "Taming the Dragon". Compare this with something like Avon's "UnBAROQUEn" where instead of the narration being seamlessly integrated and virtually becoming part of the musical performance, any energy that was built up from the previous section is halted as to make room for the narration. This resulted in poor pacing which personally took me out of the show. Of course, the execution of the show was incredible, but I can't help but wonder if Vandegrift would have not taken Kevin home given a few adjustments to Avon's 2019 show. The worst offender of narration detracting from a show in my opinion is Cadets 2014, I seriously can't stand that show a single bit.
To sum that point up again since I got caught monologuing, narration should only be used if it elevates other aspects of the design instead of detracting from it.
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Post by cybrunette on Mar 17, 2023 19:17:55 GMT -6
1. It's always bothered me when I hear a show implement the same piece of music in both the opener & closer. I don't mind if you hear hints of it within a new piece in a closer, but it has to be arranged well enough that it blends in a way to have a 'oh yeah' type of callback / reaction rather than just a huge chunk that makes you feel like 'oh we're back to this I guess?'. Lol I love how different opinions are on this! I really like it when an entire show is structured around a common piece. It can definitely feel overdone, though! Blue Springs this year is a great example. I really liked it, but I can totally see where some people would think it’s too much. I also grew up on video games and Disney movies, so I’m a sucker for a good leitmotif. In the specific situation you’re describing I think it’d be a bit annoying. I definitely agree that it needs to make sense instead of just being tossed in to feel symmetrical. Yeah lol I'm sure it boils down to a difference in experiences. When it comes to my own personal history in spectating other bands at competitions during the time I was in high school, more times than not I found the bands mirroring openers & closers falling into this pit of a lack in creativity. It always lost my interest in high school during those situations unfortunately. I think that's why I'm a little picky on my taste of how well a musical arranger creates fluid direction for a band to pull off a call back to the opening piece.
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Post by cybrunette on Mar 17, 2023 19:20:17 GMT -6
3. The second winter guard one is can we stop using overly-emotional slower-paced piano covers of popular 70s and 80s songs? It was the upbeat disco groove that made you "want to dance with somebody" that makes those songs so iconic. This one just might be a personal traumatic reaction from the coffee shop across the street from my university exclusively playing these kinds of covers, but that doesn't mean I won't include it on my list. This just makes me remember how fun AMPs show was last year lol it just felt refreshing seeing something different
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Post by vidal28rdg on Mar 17, 2023 23:26:45 GMT -6
I'm surprised I haven't commented on this thread yet and people who know me well are probably surprised as well because I am not one to keep silent when I don't like a show's design. Let me try and rapid fire a few. 1. Ignorant and lazy implementation of a foreign culture, i.e. Cycle Song - a pop song inspired by music from Bhutan (which is in the Himalayas) in a show about Egypt (Texas folks should know which show I'm referencing). That's not to say you can't do a show about a foreign culture, just do the most basic of research and try to make it authentic so it can also be a learning experience about world music for your students. 2. These next two are more winter guard focused. Firstly, can we stop doing "phone bad" shows now? We get it, no one is denying the harmful impacts phones have on our attention spans and other aspects of our lives. This one applies to marching band as well, but the biggest offenders tend to be indoors these days. 3. The second winter guard one is can we stop using overly-emotional slower-paced piano covers of popular 70s and 80s songs? It was the upbeat disco groove that made you "want to dance with somebody" that makes those songs so iconic. This one just might be a personal traumatic reaction from the coffee shop across the street from my university exclusively playing these kinds of covers, but that doesn't mean I won't include it on my list. 4. Narration for the sake of narration. I'm a firm believer that you can make basically anything work in a marching band setting, even some of the things I've mentioned above (well, not #1, that just shouldn't be a thing for reasons outside of enjoyment), and that applies to narration as well. There's been a lot of great shows that use narration to elevate and transform a show's design, a great example fresh in our minds is Bluecoat's "Riffs & Revelations", which I think we can all agree would not have been the same without the iconic narration from Brad Mehldau's "Taming the Dragon". Compare this with something like Avon's "UnBAROQUEn" where instead of the narration being seamlessly integrated and virtually becoming part of the musical performance, any energy that was built up from the previous section is halted as to make room for the narration. This resulted in poor pacing which personally took me out of the show. Of course, the execution of the show was incredible, but I can't help but wonder if Vandegrift would have not taken Kevin home given a few adjustments to Avon's 2019 show. The worst offender of narration detracting from a show in my opinion is Cadets 2014, I seriously can't stand that show a single bit. To sum that point up again since I got caught monologuing, narration should only be used if it elevates other aspects of the design instead of detracting from it. The “phone bad” and slower covers of previously more energetic songs I feel are definitely just products of our time😂 the discourse of 2010’s-now pop music being more “drab” “slow” “repetitive” with production elements is very frequent criticism so that honestly doesn’t surprise me that the musical proclivities of some winterguard shows have reflected that. The “phone bad” trope can easily blur the line of more general tech bad/dystopia type shows, but I hope that those shows aren’t too on the nose with their messaging haha Also yeah, the city the Texas band is in that you are mentioning isn’t exactly a bastion for diversity and that kind of consciousness😂 typical *insert city here* is what I was thinking when I saw the show at BOA dfw, already confused when you hear the shakira song right at the start too! But even then, after hearing it, I still thought, “they’ll probably make GN finals” lo and behold they made it in comfortably😮 A disclaimer too: my thoughts on the city do not reflect on what I think of the band, I think they’re great and I hope they continue to do so!
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Post by allthingschaotic on Mar 18, 2023 10:55:59 GMT -6
I'm surprised I haven't commented on this thread yet and people who know me well are probably surprised as well because I am not one to keep silent when I don't like a show's design. Let me try and rapid fire a few. 1. Ignorant and lazy implementation of a foreign culture, i.e. Cycle Song - a pop song inspired by music from Bhutan (which is in the Himalayas) in a show about Egypt (Texas folks should know which show I'm referencing). That's not to say you can't do a show about a foreign culture, just do the most basic of research and try to make it authentic so it can also be a learning experience about world music for your students. 2. These next two are more winter guard focused. Firstly, can we stop doing "phone bad" shows now? We get it, no one is denying the harmful impacts phones have on our attention spans and other aspects of our lives. This one applies to marching band as well, but the biggest offenders tend to be indoors these days. 3. The second winter guard one is can we stop using overly-emotional slower-paced piano covers of popular 70s and 80s songs? It was the upbeat disco groove that made you "want to dance with somebody" that makes those songs so iconic. This one just might be a personal traumatic reaction from the coffee shop across the street from my university exclusively playing these kinds of covers, but that doesn't mean I won't include it on my list. 4. Narration for the sake of narration. I'm a firm believer that you can make basically anything work in a marching band setting, even some of the things I've mentioned above (well, not #1, that just shouldn't be a thing for reasons outside of enjoyment), and that applies to narration as well. There's been a lot of great shows that use narration to elevate and transform a show's design, a great example fresh in our minds is Bluecoat's "Riffs & Revelations", which I think we can all agree would not have been the same without the iconic narration from Brad Mehldau's "Taming the Dragon". Compare this with something like Avon's "UnBAROQUEn" where instead of the narration being seamlessly integrated and virtually becoming part of the musical performance, any energy that was built up from the previous section is halted as to make room for the narration. This resulted in poor pacing which personally took me out of the show. Of course, the execution of the show was incredible, but I can't help but wonder if Vandegrift would have not taken Kevin home given a few adjustments to Avon's 2019 show. The worst offender of narration detracting from a show in my opinion is Cadets 2014, I seriously can't stand that show a single bit. To sum that point up again since I got caught monologuing, narration should only be used if it elevates other aspects of the design instead of detracting from it. Also yeah, the city the Texas band is in that you are mentioning isn’t exactly a bastion for diversity and that kind of consciousness😂 typical *insert city here* is what I was thinking when I saw the show at BOA dfw, already confused when you hear the shakira song right at the start too! But even then, after hearing it, I still thought, “they’ll probably make GN finals” lo and behold they made it in comfortably😮 A disclaimer too: my thoughts on the city do not reflect on what I think of the band, I think they’re great and I hope they continue to do so! I don't think the show you're thinking of was set in Egypt... I think we're talking about a show from 2021.
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Post by vidal28rdg on Mar 18, 2023 11:29:14 GMT -6
Also yeah, the city the Texas band is in that you are mentioning isn’t exactly a bastion for diversity and that kind of consciousness😂 typical *insert city here* is what I was thinking when I saw the show at BOA dfw, already confused when you hear the shakira song right at the start too! But even then, after hearing it, I still thought, “they’ll probably make GN finals” lo and behold they made it in comfortably😮 A disclaimer too: my thoughts on the city do not reflect on what I think of the band, I think they’re great and I hope they continue to do so! I don't think the show you're thinking of was set in Egypt... I think we're talking about a show from 2021. There goes to show how increasingly common that piece is being used I guess! Haha
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Post by paddy on Mar 19, 2023 21:12:14 GMT -6
I will take 100 “phone bad” shows as long as I don’t have to watch another show in the “Sandy Hook school shooting” tribute genre again in my life. They really drove it home with little crosses with the kids’ names on them.
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Post by hawknate14 on Mar 20, 2023 7:42:46 GMT -6
I will take 100 “phone bad” shows as long as I don’t have to watch another show in the “Sandy Hook school shooting” tribute genre again in my life. They really drove it home with little crosses with the kids’ names on them. Yikes, that's worse than the one band near me who just out of the blue decided to do a show about dealing with death that ended with the Drum Major getting into a coffin and being carried off the field.
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Post by marimba11 on Mar 20, 2023 10:03:20 GMT -6
percussion features where the drumline's stand still
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Post by crowncrawler on Mar 20, 2023 12:05:13 GMT -6
percussion features where the drumline's stand still 100% agree with you. It's like park 'n' bark for drumline
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Post by philodemus on Mar 20, 2023 14:31:25 GMT -6
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Post by vidal28rdg on Mar 20, 2023 23:04:08 GMT -6
A pet peeve of mine that shouldn’t be in all honesty, because if done well I enjoy hearing how a high school can perform and make this selection their own in what is their unique product*gasps for air* anyways!! Yes, this thought popped up from this comment, the influx of repertoire appearances from a massively popular DCI show that become inescapable, SCV 2018, several Crown shows, and a few others come to mind. It’s solely a pet peeve of mine because I have that version of it being done by what is often a very successful and memorable dci show as a “definitive version” in the activity, with it being “hard to top”, that’s the main reason. It’s a pretty petty thing to be bugged by to be frank, I’ll have my eye rolls and have my *dog ears and eyes perk up* reaction but the kids are getting something fun to play in for their show and that should always matter more✨✨ It’s something that overlaps too with the *repetitive selection* pet peeve several of us posters also have. This of course isn’t a dealbreaker in me enjoying a show, it’s simply a thought I can’t help to have sometimes😂
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Post by Samuel Culper on Mar 29, 2023 7:44:19 GMT -6
I was thinking about things that I've been tired of seeing in show design, and I was wondering if anyone else had any pet peeves when it came to marching shows? (note: this isn't intended to target specific programs or any of the students in them so please don't make this thread into something like that, I've intentionally made my wording broad and unspecific) Anyways, I'll start with mine. 1. When a band has a beautiful uniform with stitching and dimensionality and replaces it with a dri-fit shirt with a very 2D looking design printed on. I just find it very cheap looking, even when it's done by high level programs. 2. When a group decides to do a show representing a non-American or European culture and uses source music primarily composed by American or European artists. I feel pretty strongly about this one, enough so that I typed up a whole thread to post about it, but I decided against it because I wasn't sure if it'd go over well. It just sucks to be excited to see something intended to represent you, then feeling like you just watched a caricature on field. On #2 - I'm curious if you care - or even notice - when a show with a distinctly American theme uses music selections by non-American composers.
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Post by marimba11 on Mar 29, 2023 11:06:26 GMT -6
I was thinking about things that I've been tired of seeing in show design, and I was wondering if anyone else had any pet peeves when it came to marching shows? (note: this isn't intended to target specific programs or any of the students in them so please don't make this thread into something like that, I've intentionally made my wording broad and unspecific) Anyways, I'll start with mine. 1. When a band has a beautiful uniform with stitching and dimensionality and replaces it with a dri-fit shirt with a very 2D looking design printed on. I just find it very cheap looking, even when it's done by high level programs. 2. When a group decides to do a show representing a non-American or European culture and uses source music primarily composed by American or European artists. I feel pretty strongly about this one, enough so that I typed up a whole thread to post about it, but I decided against it because I wasn't sure if it'd go over well. It just sucks to be excited to see something intended to represent you, then feeling like you just watched a caricature on field. On #2 - I'm curious if you care - or even notice - when a show with a distinctly American theme uses music selections by non-American composers. Was it Friendswood this past year who did the French show? Could be misremembering. I want to say they used French music. So did Round Rock in 2019 too. But I do agree with you. I think it helps Music General Effect consistency too. But what do I know lol
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Post by bigtrombone on Mar 29, 2023 11:55:37 GMT -6
5. Unnecessary props, there are so many shows that I've seen that have so many props to the point that I'm not even focusing on the show anymore and I'm just wondering how much money the show cost them lmao. There was one show in particular that I can't remember the name of, which had so many different types of props that I just didn't know where to look. On the other side though there were also times where I've seen props that just literally serve no purpose other than to cover up the field, and mostly just seem to be in the way. Either way they make the show feel like they would've just been better off without them This might just be me, but this is exactly my issue with at least 60% of recent Cartwright-designed shows.
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