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Post by Shroom on Jul 25, 2022 19:46:05 GMT -6
I'm obviously not trained or very experienced by any means but to me at least BD does honestly seem way cleaner than Crown and Bloo this year, especially visually. I think the difference between BAC and BD was exaggerated at SA though and I think as finals approaches we will see the gap between whoever is second and BD close to around .8 or .7
I've always played woodwind instruments so I can't say anything too meaningful regarding brass but I think outside of soloists that BD has an exceptionally good hornline this year compared to what they previously had. From the recordings I've seen, their baritones seem to stick out a bit too much but their technical ability always sounds very clear compared to how Bloo and SCV play their runs. I honestly don't think I can say too much regarding the difference between BD and Crown since I won't see either live for bit, but Crown seems to have very very slight tuning issues with mellos and high brass? Honestly the difference is so minute in the recordings I've seen that it's impossible for me to say any value. The only thing that always stick out to me regarding Bloo is that their ballad always is more than a little out of tune and unbalanced. I think the judges a lot of time are just going with their gut when it comes to judging high level brass corps, and I think it's hard to fault them most of the time for doing so.
The visual gap between BD and the rest though I think is fully justified. A lot of just basic mistakes that we normally don't see every other year are present in the top corps regarding visuals and I think BD (and BAC too to a lesser extent) really is the only corps that has been able to clean past them. Bloo in particular seems to have a couple phasing issues when the BPM hits the upper 100s, and I think that their shoes make that harder to see from the stands but if you hone in on a couple marchers in multicam recordings you can see that there is always at least one or two people just that sliver of a second out of time. Bloo's backwards marching technique seems really strong and defined but surprisingly their forward marching to me always seems to be more of an issue, their legs always extend at slightly differing amounts and at different times during forward marching sections. Crown this year I think just has a ton of new kids and it honestly just feels like their vets and extremely talented people are carrying them visually. Half of Crown is near perfect in their marching but the other half has really bad head bobbing and sloppy technique. The whole corps seems to have a really bad issue with gaps/spacing this year, especially whenever they march a hole. I've also noticed that a lot of their choreo just seems a little floaty in terms of execution, it's not as snappy as Bloo or BD and it seems to me at least to be the most obvious issue with them this year visually.
GE is kind of dumb
Honestly I'm kind of just being nitpicky but I at least want to try and rationalize the judges decisions. The score gap should probably be smaller than what it is now but BD is a force of nature this year imo
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Post by supersound on Jul 25, 2022 22:01:18 GMT -6
When you finally realize that BD wins because they usually are the best, it is a really freeing feeling and makes following the activity so much more enjoyable.
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Post by supersound on Jul 25, 2022 22:02:31 GMT -6
Very well put by shroom.
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Post by marimba11 on Jul 25, 2022 23:11:53 GMT -6
I'm obviously not trained or very experienced by any means but to me at least BD does honestly seem way cleaner than Crown and Bloo this year, especially visually. I think the difference between BAC and BD was exaggerated at SA though and I think as finals approaches we will see the gap between whoever is second and BD close to around .8 or .7 I've always played woodwind instruments so I can't say anything too meaningful regarding brass but I think outside of soloists that BD has an exceptionally good hornline this year compared to what they previously had. From the recordings I've seen, their baritones seem to stick out a bit too much but their technical ability always sounds very clear compared to how Bloo and SCV play their runs. I honestly don't think I can say too much regarding the difference between BD and Crown since I won't see either live for bit, but Crown seems to have very very slight tuning issues with mellos and high brass? Honestly the difference is so minute in the recordings I've seen that it's impossible for me to say any value. The only thing that always stick out to me regarding Bloo is that their ballad always is more than a little out of tune and unbalanced. I think the judges a lot of time are just going with their gut when it comes to judging high level brass corps, and I think it's hard to fault them most of the time for doing so. The visual gap between BD and the rest though I think is fully justified. A lot of just basic mistakes that we normally don't see every other year are present in the top corps regarding visuals and I think BD (and BAC too to a lesser extent) really is the only corps that has been able to clean past them. Bloo in particular seems to have a couple phasing issues when the BPM hits the upper 100s, and I think that their shoes make that harder to see from the stands but if you hone in on a couple marchers in multicam recordings you can see that there is always at least one or two people just that sliver of a second out of time. Bloo's backwards marching technique seems really strong and defined but surprisingly their forward marching to me always seems to be more of an issue, their legs always extend at slightly differing amounts and at different times during forward marching sections. Crown this year I think just has a ton of new kids and it honestly just feels like their vets and extremely talented people are carrying them visually. Half of Crown is near perfect in their marching but the other half has really bad head bobbing and sloppy technique. The whole corps seems to have a really bad issue with gaps/spacing this year, especially whenever they march a hole. I've also noticed that a lot of their choreo just seems a little floaty in terms of execution, it's not as snappy as Bloo or BD and it seems to me at least to be the most obvious issue with them this year visually. GE is kind of dumb Honestly I'm kind of just being nitpicky but I at least want to try and rationalize the judges decisions. The score gap should probably be smaller than what it is now but BD is a force of nature this year imo Flo’s multicam is really zooming in this year, so I am also noticing the individual visual issues you mentioned with Crown 100%. However, there is still time and gaps are close and changing lots! Very exciting competitive season in any event imo
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Post by elsie on Jul 26, 2022 0:06:49 GMT -6
Blue Knights, Colts, Crossmen and The Troopers are all still fighting for that final spot in finals! It looks like Blue Knights is starting with a very good lead with Colts holding steady ahead of Crossmen and Troopers by very little
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Post by LeanderMomma on Jul 26, 2022 10:36:03 GMT -6
I’m very tired of people playing judge, it’s seriously exhausting to see Blue Devils consistent cleanliness treated as if it doesn’t exist. It’s getting extremely tiring, as someone who’s favorite corp is the Crossmen. Hmmm. I wasn’t playing judge. I thought I was asking a genuine question. 🤨 I’m also normally a huge BD fan. Just not of this year’s show. 🤷🏻♀️
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Post by LeanderMomma on Jul 26, 2022 10:37:20 GMT -6
I’m honestly trying to understand what makes the Blue Devils score so much better than the others. It’s definitely not in my top 3 list this year and I just don’t understand what the judges see that I don’t. I felt like their poor soloists in particular were really struggling on Saturday and yet they still scored crazy high. 🤷🏻♀️ As a reminder, this was my question.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Jul 26, 2022 10:39:42 GMT -6
When you finally realize that BD wins because they usually are the best, it is a really freeing feeling and makes following the activity so much more enjoyable. Still trying to understand why this year’s BD show is the “best.” But I’m getting the feeling it’s the cleanest and most difficult show. Maybe just not the most crowd pleasing. I can accept that.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Jul 26, 2022 11:01:45 GMT -6
Also, I think I’m just bitter that Olander aged out. 🤣🤣
I’m going to watch the show with new eyes next time, armed with the things I’ve been educated on here. 💙😈
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Post by supersound on Jul 26, 2022 11:42:21 GMT -6
I’m very tired of people playing judge, it’s seriously exhausting to see Blue Devils consistent cleanliness treated as if it doesn’t exist. It’s getting extremely tiring, as someone who’s favorite corp is the Crossmen. Hmmm. I wasn’t playing judge. I thought I was asking a genuine question. 🤨 I’m also normally a huge BD fan. Just not of this year’s show. 🤷🏻♀️ My apologies! That was not referring to you, it was referring to the comment about if the colts put up the same show they’d be scored in the lower range
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Post by hewhowaits on Jul 26, 2022 12:20:11 GMT -6
Hmmm. I wasn’t playing judge. I thought I was asking a genuine question. 🤨 I’m also normally a huge BD fan. Just not of this year’s show. 🤷🏻♀️ My apologies! That was not referring to you, it was referring to the comment about if the colts put up the same show they’d be scored in the lower range I said if BD was dressed like Colts and announced as Colts, they would sometimes place in the lower half of finals (with the exact same show executed in the exact same way). I stand by that comment. In all activities that are judged, there are biases built in. We've all seen superior gymnastics or figure skating performances by unknowns get lower scores than average performances by the "stars." That's just the way it works. Who designs your show is nearly as important as the design itself because of connectedness amongst the design and judging communities. That's part of why GE is so hard to get a handle on - even when we figure out WHAT is desired in GE we don't know the multiplicative factors involved due to this interconnectedness.
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Post by marimba11 on Jul 26, 2022 12:50:54 GMT -6
Still trying to understand why this year’s BD show is the “best.” But I’m getting the feeling it’s the cleanest and most difficult show. Maybe just not the most crowd pleasing. I can accept that. Yeah! No I totally get that. When it comes to GE and looking at the sheets, it talks a lot about how effective the music is at achieving the show theme and how the members are communicating that. The sheets talk a lot about unified voice, variety, artistry, creativity of the musical arrangement. Then you have the fact that they do transitions masterfully, and the whole production is tied back to a strong theme. So this BD show is more of an intellectual theme. Those are always harder to attach to IMO. The aesthetic and emotional shows are easier to grasp.
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Post by marimba11 on Jul 26, 2022 12:54:51 GMT -6
A certain past DCI director thinks that if recaps were eliminated (or published a week later than the show date), this would eliminate slotting as judges couldn't refer back to much precedence. It is an interesting idea at least that could be tested. I wonder if just going to an ordinal system would resolve that. But we basically have that now just with numbers so I am not sure
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Post by hewhowaits on Jul 26, 2022 14:03:10 GMT -6
A certain past DCI director thinks that if recaps were eliminated (or published a week later than the show date), this would eliminate slotting as judges couldn't refer back to much precedence. It is an interesting idea at least that could be tested. I wonder if just going to an ordinal system would resolve that. But we basically have that now just with numbers so I am not sure Some of the slotting starts before the first warmup note is played in the first winter camp.
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Post by marimba11 on Jul 26, 2022 15:34:10 GMT -6
I pretty much disagree, but that is okay. We could go in circles all day. I would just say.. show me a recap you disagree with and go down the line each caption and respective judge who is wrong... blanket statements of judge bias and slotting creating this fake boogie man, just kind of degrades even having judges at all, no?
This is coming from someone who was literally part of a 13th place drum corps... so if anyone was "slotted," it was me and I still don't completely buy it. But I know a lot do. That 12th place corps was better. I respect your opinion, but I don't think it is as widespread as many believe.
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Post by philodemus on Jul 26, 2022 18:09:25 GMT -6
After a few decades in this activity, I am not certain of very many things, but here is one I am certain of:
Judges-be the DCI, WGI, or any level of marching band-are human beings. The ones I know well enough to have an opinion of are all intelligent, well-intentioned human beings.
But, human beings none the less.
So this whole, "Is there slotting?" or not question doesn't have a straightforward answer. I would doubt very highly whether any judge ever thinks that they are slotting consciously. There are no secret cabals meeting in the press box before a show snickering about how they're gonna screw over corps X. But, since they are human beings, they are subject to all the usual cognitive biases that come with being a bipedal ape.
Let us consider a not so random example: suppose you are judging General Effect and the Blue Devils come out and perform a show that simply does not make sense - it's a stretch, I know, but stay with me. Now, if the Colts had performed that show, you'd probably say, "Guys, that was incoherent. I mean, blue maps that are stepped on while the Dune soundtrack plays, followed by Moon River for God's sake? Really?" But... it isn't the Colts. It's the Blue Devils. Their reputation does proceed them. You are well aware that some of the smartest and best minds in the activity put together this incoherent mess, so you wonder... "Maybe it's not the show, maybe it's me? Maybe I'm just not smart enough to get it." Of course, you do not want your colleagues to believe that you are not smart, like all bipedal apes you crave the approval of your peers and need their esteem and respect.
And of course, you can hear the other GE judge in the press box making his tape and he's saying, "Wow, BD! Great job!" Huh.
So you put down a large number and begin the process of internally convincing yourself that you believed it to be that way all along. Like all bipedal apes, you are very good at editing your memories to make yourself seem very consistent and smart.
Now look, I too, am a bipedal ape. I cannot claim to have achieved any higher level of enlightenment, and of course, sometimes the emperor does have clothes and I'm just too dumb to see them. Maybe I'm wrong and BD is an incredible piece of design that I am not yet ready to understand.
But my larger point is simply this: no, there is no conspiracy. Most judges are doing their best. But that doesn't mean that they aren't people and aren't subject to the same subconscious biases as any other sort of people.
Sorry for the rant.
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Post by drummerboy on Jul 26, 2022 20:17:29 GMT -6
I am just weighing in as a "fan". When I watch shows, beit DCI, BOA, etc., I want to be entertained. That is PART of this activity, entertainment for the audience (live or on streaming) and PART is enrichment for the student/performers and the staff/directors. As a fan, I am really struggling this year to connect with Blue Devils and honestly hate the Bluecoats, almost exclusively for all the narrative. It just loses me and I do not enjoy either. Now I also understand that both are performing the shows that were given to them at a very high level and both are top 5 corps.
I AM a fan of Boston and Crown and Cavaliers as I just personnally connect with their energy, sound, movement, etc. This doesn's make anyone else's stated opinions "wrong", and doesn't make mine "right" but we all have a right to have our own and enjoy in our own way without ripping anyone's viewpoint or stated opinions.
I do think there is some corp bias to judging but as stated, judges are human and do "know" the corps and their history and at this point of the year, are getting to pretty well know the nuances of the DCI shows. I pretty much picked the top 5 this year back in May and order is the only question and I'm correct so far. I think we can all basically agree that BD will win this year as no corp will likely make up 1.5 points with 2 1/2 weeks left in the season short of BD having a COVID outbreak. Even with this, I will continue to watch and enjoy the ones that connect with me and I hope that everyone finds the show or shows that really make them enjoy the activity. It sure is nice to be having this conversation given what this activity went thru for the last 2 summers!
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Post by supersound on Jul 26, 2022 21:10:56 GMT -6
A certain past DCI director thinks that if recaps were eliminated (or published a week later than the show date), this would eliminate slotting as judges couldn't refer back to much precedence. It is an interesting idea at least that could be tested. I wonder if just going to an ordinal system would resolve that. But we basically have that now just with numbers so I am not sure Some of the slotting starts before the first warmup note is played in the first winter camp. Then don’t watch DCI, leave it to people who don’t have their enjoyment clouded by an imaginary boogeyman. As stated above bias obviously exists, and there are suggested methods to curb it which I’m sure we’d all be open to. If you’re going to be so insistent that it’s all rigged then please just leave it to the rest of us who will enjoy and appreciate the activity without this cloud of judgment.
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Post by hewhowaits on Jul 27, 2022 7:25:20 GMT -6
Some of the slotting starts before the first warmup note is played in the first winter camp. Then don’t watch DCI, leave it to people who don’t have their enjoyment clouded by an imaginary boogeyman. As stated above bias obviously exists, and there are suggested methods to curb it which I’m sure we’d all be open to. If you’re going to be so insistent that it’s all rigged then please just leave it to the rest of us who will enjoy and appreciate the activity without this cloud of judgment. I thoroughly enjoy the product put on the field (from all the participating corps). When I lived close enough to do so, I was in the stands for every show on World Class preliminaries day. Les Stentors get the same response of appreciation from me as the top players. It's not "all rigged" (your words, not mine) but it is far from a level playing field. That's the reality that keeps me out of conversations about exact placements. If I truly cared about who finishes in what place, I would have stopped loving the activity before many on these boards were born.
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Post by dbalash on Jul 27, 2022 14:58:40 GMT -6
Also what exactly is going to happen to Spirit? I honestly did not follow everything too closely but I do know the outline of what went on. Was their membership from DCI revoked or are they reorganizing internally? Will they return eventually or are they just gone? They took 2022 off to reorganize and come back for 2023. It was probably more of an edict from DCI saying they'll take the season off, or they'll turn into Pioneer and pretty much be declared persona non grata by DCI. Is there still a rule in DCI that if you miss 2+ seasons, the corps is required to go back to Open Class and work their way back up? And Spirit is welcomed back for 2023. www.spiritofatlanta.org/news/2023season?fbclid=IwAR2lnrV9vfTNsc8hMoOi4BNl0llfg8B6kvJ1mTpqDR_PZgFGHVFfph_Wk-IIf Pioneer had actually admitted to their wrongdoings and cleaned house like Spirit and The Cadets did, maybe they'd still be around.
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Post by dbalash on Aug 3, 2022 20:02:08 GMT -6
This randomly popped up...
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Post by LeanderMomma on Aug 3, 2022 22:44:55 GMT -6
This randomly popped up... good grief! Did he “forget” he wasn’t supposed to go near DCI?! They ain’t messing around!
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Post by marimba11 on Aug 3, 2022 22:50:12 GMT -6
This randomly popped up... Yeah.. I was following that thread on DCP. He attended DCI San Antonio (a rumor he had VIP seats- though not confirmed). Apparently, his daughter is on staff for SCV. So some argued he was there to support her... who knows. He has a public facebook page and is publishing his "thoughts" on DCI this year and scores on medium.com. Sufficive to say they are provocative essays. My opinion is that he should absolutely not be allowed to attend any DCI event ever again. That should be one of the many prices to pay. Bob Bass had/has to pay it. And that was over a single event! There should be consequences for terrible behavior. He shouldn't be able to get near a corps rehearsing/ the like. If he had any class, he would have done so but apparently he does not IMO.
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Post by elsie on Aug 3, 2022 23:32:47 GMT -6
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Post by elsie on Aug 3, 2022 23:33:54 GMT -6
This randomly popped up... Yeah.. I was following that thread on DCP. He attended DCI San Antonio (a rumor he had VIP seats- though not confirmed). Apparently, his daughter is on staff for SCV. So some argued he was there to support her... who knows. He has a public facebook page and is publishing his "thoughts" on DCI this year and scores on medium.com. Sufficive to say they are provocative essays. My opinion is that he should absolutely not be allowed to attend any DCI event ever again. That should be one of the many prices to pay. Bob Bass had/has to pay it. And that was over a single event! There should be consequences for terrible behavior. He shouldn't be able to get near a corps rehearsing/ the like. If he had any class, he would have done so but apparently he does not IMO. What is the DCP I am curious
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Post by dbalash on Aug 4, 2022 5:37:03 GMT -6
Yeah.. I was following that thread on DCP. He attended DCI San Antonio (a rumor he had VIP seats- though not confirmed). Apparently, his daughter is on staff for SCV. So some argued he was there to support her... who knows. He has a public facebook page and is publishing his "thoughts" on DCI this year and scores on medium.com. Sufficive to say they are provocative essays. My opinion is that he should absolutely not be allowed to attend any DCI event ever again. That should be one of the many prices to pay. Bob Bass had/has to pay it. And that was over a single event! There should be consequences for terrible behavior. He shouldn't be able to get near a corps rehearsing/ the like. If he had any class, he would have done so but apparently he does not IMO. What is the DCP I am curious Drum Corps Planet. A bunch of old fogies who whine about every little thing.
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Post by Shroom on Aug 4, 2022 5:51:49 GMT -6
What is the DCP I am curious Drum Corps Planet. A bunch of old fogies who whine about every little thing. Every time I check DCP I see something more ridiculous each time. I wouldn't be surprised if a solid percentage of DCP's user base thinks that DCI started to decline when symmetrical drill fell out of fashion.
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Post by hewhowaits on Aug 4, 2022 7:19:20 GMT -6
Drum Corps Planet. A bunch of old fogies who whine about every little thing. Every time I check DCP I see something more ridiculous each time. I wouldn't be surprised if a solid percentage of DCP's user base thinks that DCI started to decline when symmetrical drill fell out of fashion. Don't follow DCP any longer, but I can assure you that I've seen such a thread on multiple occasions.
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Post by marimba11 on Aug 4, 2022 8:26:02 GMT -6
True about dcp lol. However other than here and the facebook group they have, it is sort of the only game in town.
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Post by philodemus on Aug 4, 2022 9:07:21 GMT -6
I get what y'all are saying about DCP and the old fogies... but, part of me can get it. I love the contemporary marching arts, but I kinda miss the old school sometimes, too. Of course, that's what DCA is for.
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