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Post by novicebanddad on Oct 22, 2022 22:01:57 GMT -6
High school students are not robots. They can overperform and underperform consistently. Different people judging different things. The points don't matter. Caught the program. To your point, not an ideal slot for them but I think the finish is about right. There's a massive number of bands all performing at approximately the same level (from Lincoln-Way all the way down to Kennesaw). Any of those bands could have been 11th.. or 20th. Points don't matter...unless they do. This whole site is about rankings based on points. A high performing program has a bad run now and again, agreed. But two points, on the same day? I guess. Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion. Maybe a five point spread is more deserving of backlash, unless there were major failures during the show.
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Post by indyguardmom on Oct 22, 2022 22:02:17 GMT -6
I’ve been following boa since 2011 and I gotta ask, how come, no matter what, when, or where the competition is, Carmel and Avon magically get drawn to perform right next to each other? It does always seem to work out that way, doesn't it? But the numbers are drawn by the directors, so we're just lucky, i guess. Personally, i love having them back to back. Easy to compare directly.
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Post by novicebanddad on Oct 22, 2022 22:04:23 GMT -6
IMO, seems ridiculous that a score can change by two points between prelims and finals - too much subjectivity. In prelims, the judges are just trying to make sure the best 14 bands make it to finals. Then at finals, a different set of judges (combination of the two panels) puts them in order. Prelims scores are usually higher than finals to ensure a band makes it to the evening. If what you're saying is true, I don't think that's how's they should do it. They should be judged on the same scale, regardless if it's prelims or finals. There should be no soft judging in prelims.
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Post by bandirectorman on Oct 22, 2022 22:05:39 GMT -6
Caught the program. To your point, not an ideal slot for them but I think the finish is about right. There's a massive number of bands all performing at approximately the same level (from Lincoln-Way all the way down to Kennesaw). Any of those bands could have been 11th.. or 20th. Points don't matter...unless they do. This whole site is about rankings based on points. A high performing program has a bad run now and again, agreed. But two points, on the same day? I guess. Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion. Maybe a five point spread is more deserving of backlash, unless there were major failures during the show. Yeah, I think you are overthinking this. It's a subjective activity (judging) with different judges on the field who sample various aspects of a program during the actual performance. What they see/appreciate/evaluate can vary -- even if they see the same band in prelims and finals. What if half of your clarinet section can't actually play? Or someone on the back side of the stage (field) can't march in time? It can happen.
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Post by macwinlin on Oct 22, 2022 22:09:43 GMT -6
In prelims, the judges are just trying to make sure the best 14 bands make it to finals. Then at finals, a different set of judges (combination of the two panels) puts them in order. Prelims scores are usually higher than finals to ensure a band makes it to the evening. If what you're saying is true, I don't think that's how's they should do it. They should be judged on the same scale, regardless if it's prelims or finals. There should be no soft judging in prelims. Even then, you’d have to have the exact same judges on the exact same subcaptions for every single band throughout prelims and finals to be the “same scale.”
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Post by vidal28rdg on Oct 22, 2022 22:12:22 GMT -6
It’s insane how competitive this SR has been. The entire top half and a few from the bottom half are all GN finalist-caliber bands. We haven’t seen Indianapolis this competitive in years. Truly disagree. Perhaps the top 5-6 could bubble it up in finals. Anything below an 87 here is not in the conversation. Not after what we've seen at other regionals involving other bands who are also attending. just based on performances, I actually do agree with OP and have what I think are bubble-to-finalist bands at 7-8 from this finals group. They were all great performances that are gonna make it hard for the judges to exclude them come Semis in 3 weeks
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Post by ilikeguard on Oct 22, 2022 22:12:41 GMT -6
Dang, Camdenton 50th in Music Ensemble? I’m guessing that after 83 bands Moonlight Sonata and Dies Irae weren’t hitting anymore
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Post by ilikeguard on Oct 22, 2022 22:15:51 GMT -6
Camdenton in 27th, not breaking 80… absolutely stunned. 😕 I am simply choosing not to see the 13.7 😌 I would have understood it in visual, but ensemble music…? I didn’t follow that. I know the judges know what they’re doing, but…I just don’t get it. They sounded fine from the field.
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Post by ignoreme on Oct 22, 2022 22:20:55 GMT -6
In prelims, the judges are just trying to make sure the best 14 bands make it to finals. Then at finals, a different set of judges (combination of the two panels) puts them in order. Prelims scores are usually higher than finals to ensure a band makes it to the evening. If what you're saying is true, I don't think that's how's they should do it. They should be judged on the same scale, regardless if it's prelims or finals. There should be no soft judging in prelims. I don't see how that would be possible. Lets say youre judging music ensemble, the actual number is pretty much all based off the score you give the first band. First band performs. you decide they should get a 15. Now the next band comes on. If you feel they are better than the first band, they get more than 15 in music. If the first band is better? Second band has to get less than 15. Its the only way to do it. The only way you could do this on a set scale is if you had already decided placements before they performed, and no one thinks that's a good idea. .
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Post by statechamp1239 on Oct 22, 2022 22:33:08 GMT -6
I freaking loved this SR and wow these scores are crazy. 16th-23rd place separated by a point. and 14th-30th just 4 points
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Post by bigtrombone on Oct 22, 2022 22:40:54 GMT -6
I freaking loved this SR and wow these scores are crazy. 16th-23rd place separated by a point. and 14th-30th just 4 points Hopefully we'll see a similar amount of craziness at San Antonio in 2 weeks!
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Post by paddy on Oct 22, 2022 22:57:36 GMT -6
Looks to me like Panel 2 in prelims was running hot in the middle range. 14th in Panel 1 and 14th in Panel 2 were 4 points apart (Panel 2 higher).
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Post by marimba11 on Oct 22, 2022 23:02:20 GMT -6
Homestead getting 29th in visual??? I mean sure it’s not their best visual program ever but it’s not that bad
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Post by redteam1114 on Oct 22, 2022 23:45:05 GMT -6
It’s insane how competitive this SR has been. The entire top half and a few from the bottom half are all GN finalist-caliber bands. We haven’t seen Indianapolis this competitive in years. This season definitely feels like a special one regarding the competitiveness across the board! St. Louis had a feeling that it probably exceeded a lot of our expectations and had a really tight bubble (only a 1.775 point gap between 14th and 20th), Indy had such a deep lineup that many bands we'd assume would be in most years didn't make finals...what will San Antonio bring to the table next week? 👀 I guess the Indianapolis bubble told me "Hold my Gatorade." 😂 Only 0.9 separating 14th through 20th in prelims? Absolutely insane
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Post by novicebanddad on Oct 22, 2022 23:53:41 GMT -6
Points don't matter...unless they do. This whole site is about rankings based on points. A high performing program has a bad run now and again, agreed. But two points, on the same day? I guess. Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion. Maybe a five point spread is more deserving of backlash, unless there were major failures during the show. Yeah, I think you are overthinking this. It's a subjective activity (judging) with different judges on the field who sample various aspects of a program during the actual performance. What they see/appreciate/evaluate can vary -- even if they see the same band in prelims and finals. What if half of your clarinet section can't actually play? Or someone on the back side of the stage (field) can't march in time? It can happen. Okay, maybe I am overthinking. If so, then any bands within 2 points of each other at any given time are basically equal, which means there is no true winner. However, there actually are winners, and the winners win by less than a point. So, it's too subjective, and the joke is that someone gets to call themselves first. I say all this to basically point out that there needs to be more rigor in the scoring.
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Post by peshbandkid on Oct 23, 2022 0:45:44 GMT -6
I admittedly don't know much about midwestern schools outside of the powerhouses, but Camdenton placing 27th with a 50th(!!!) in Music Ensemble seems very different from normal of them.
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Post by musicman12489 on Oct 23, 2022 6:31:59 GMT -6
Yeah, I think you are overthinking this. It's a subjective activity (judging) with different judges on the field who sample various aspects of a program during the actual performance. What they see/appreciate/evaluate can vary -- even if they see the same band in prelims and finals. What if half of your clarinet section can't actually play? Or someone on the back side of the stage (field) can't march in time? It can happen. Okay, maybe I am overthinking. If so, then any bands within 2 points of each other at any given time are basically equal, which means there is no true winner. However, there actually are winners, and the winners win by less than a point. So, it's too subjective, and the joke is that someone gets to call themselves first. I say all this to basically point out that there needs to be more rigor in the scoring. I’ve been in this activity 18 years now. Judging is objective to a point but at the end of the day it’s also very subjective. What is your suggestion to make it better? They’ve been at this for 40+ years now- I’d say they have a pretty good system.
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Post by paddy on Oct 23, 2022 6:41:16 GMT -6
I admittedly don't know much about midwestern schools outside of the powerhouses, but Camdenton placing 27th with a 50th(!!!) in Music Ensemble seems very different from normal of them. Let’s work off the idea that the two performances scores (individual and ensemble) tend to be a similar ranking. If you give them a score commiserate with their individual (25th) they pick up 2 points. The music performance category is an average so that adds 1 point to their total score or a 80.28 which makes them…25th. So that score isn’t a big deal. Of course this ignores the fact that right above them Franklin Central was 7/36 and 8/32 and in the same boat. Or we could contemplate going the other way and dropping Camdenton 1.5 points to bring their individual music score in line…
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Post by ilikeguard on Oct 23, 2022 7:44:32 GMT -6
I admittedly don't know much about midwestern schools outside of the powerhouses, but Camdenton placing 27th with a 50th(!!!) in Music Ensemble seems very different from normal of them. Camdenton hasn’t scored under an 80 at a super since 2017, before a director and arranger change, so it is a bit out of the ordinary. That being said, I’m sure there’s an explanation that isn’t tin-foily…the field has deepened significantly, and this show was very technical for a band that has lost two large senior classes and is the youngest it ever has been. I won’t say I’m not disappointed, but I’m also satisfied with what I saw and excited for the future. They’ll be back 😉
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Post by bandirectorman on Oct 23, 2022 11:02:09 GMT -6
Yeah, I think you are overthinking this. It's a subjective activity (judging) with different judges on the field who sample various aspects of a program during the actual performance. What they see/appreciate/evaluate can vary -- even if they see the same band in prelims and finals. What if half of your clarinet section can't actually play? Or someone on the back side of the stage (field) can't march in time? It can happen. Okay, maybe I am overthinking. If so, then any bands within 2 points of each other at any given time are basically equal, which means there is no true winner. However, there actually are winners, and the winners win by less than a point. So, it's too subjective, and the joke is that someone gets to call themselves first. I say all this to basically point out that there needs to be more rigor in the scoring. You'll go mad trying to figure out the why's behind a specific judge or panel's thought/evaluation process. As a director who has competed both locally, regionally, and yes, I did bring a band to Grand Nationals and we did advance, I've learned to tune out analysis that I don't agree with. There are some very thoughtful judges, but there are others who are in over their heads as well and even others who may know what they're looking for but may not vibe with our programming. The key takeaways are all of the hard work that it takes to put in a competitive marching program and all of the positive things that students in a healthy learning environment can take away and apply to the lives and the lives of others. I realize that it is a competition, and BOA does a really lousy job of leveling the playing field at times, but 2 points one way or the other is virtually the same performance levels. Even 3-4 points is in the ballpark. You get to 8-10 or more.. yeah, there's a significant difference there.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Oct 23, 2022 11:16:59 GMT -6
Okay, maybe I am overthinking. If so, then any bands within 2 points of each other at any given time are basically equal, which means there is no true winner. However, there actually are winners, and the winners win by less than a point. So, it's too subjective, and the joke is that someone gets to call themselves first. I say all this to basically point out that there needs to be more rigor in the scoring. You'll go mad trying to figure out the why's behind a specific judge or panel's thought/evaluation process. As a director who has competed both locally, regionally, and yes, I did bring a band to Grand Nationals and we did advance, I've learned to tune out analysis that I don't agree with. There are some very thoughtful judges, but there are others who are in over their heads as well and even others who may know what they're looking for but may not vibe with our programming. The key takeaways are all of the hard work that it takes to put in a competitive marching program and all of the positive things that students in a healthy learning environment can take away and apply to the lives and the lives of others. I realize that it is a competition, and BOA does a really lousy job of leveling the playing field at times, but 2 points one way or the other is virtually the same performance levels. Even 3-4 points is in the ballpark. You get to 8-10 or more.. yeah, there's a significant difference there. 👆👆👆. 💯
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Oct 23, 2022 12:40:08 GMT -6
Dang, Camdenton 50th in Music Ensemble? I’m guessing that after 83 bands Moonlight Sonata and Dies Irae weren’t hitting anymore I wonder how often professional music critics review symphony orchestras by saying, "Beethoven's 5th again?"
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Post by marchingbandkidinsprit on Oct 23, 2022 15:58:35 GMT -6
I’m pretty sure they are AAAA looking at their enrollment of nearly 2400. Homestead has 2500 and Blue Springs has 2400. What's the limit for AAA? I’m fairly certain that the limit for AAA is 1,850 students not counting freshmen.
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Post by macwinlin on Oct 23, 2022 18:26:32 GMT -6
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Post by coleeich on Oct 24, 2022 8:39:05 GMT -6
I now have Avon's show stuck in my head. The part that goes DUH DUH DUH - DUH - DUH...ya know the one?
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Post by nomorehoney on Oct 24, 2022 9:09:06 GMT -6
Interestingly, O'Fallon just barely crosses the AAAA threshold (by 5 students). It'd be weird to see a year where they're classified as AAA, although it wouldn't change much.
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Post by ilikeguard on Oct 24, 2022 9:26:14 GMT -6
Interestingly, O'Fallon just barely crosses the AAAA threshold (by 5 students). It'd be weird to see a year where they're classified as AAA, although it wouldn't change much. What happened to the honey
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Post by nomorehoney on Oct 24, 2022 9:46:23 GMT -6
Interestingly, O'Fallon just barely crosses the AAAA threshold (by 5 students). It'd be weird to see a year where they're classified as AAA, although it wouldn't change much. What happened to the honey No more honey... (It was useless so I threw it away)
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Post by das88 on Oct 24, 2022 10:12:12 GMT -6
I now have Avon's show stuck in my head. The part that goes DUH DUH DUH - DUH - DUH...ya know the one? Lol. Same here.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2022 10:54:38 GMT -6
I now have Avon's show stuck in my head. The part that goes DUH DUH DUH - DUH - DUH...ya know the one? Sigh, yes... I wish I liked the music in this show; they lost 3 of the 4 music GE judges this past weekend. Visual GE was the decision-maker. Let's see if Carmel can step up their game in the next few weeks!
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