bandisjoy
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Post by bandisjoy on Oct 24, 2022 11:36:09 GMT -6
Y'all are so much better at BOA history than I am but these Indy SR results made me wonder how frequently that a band wins either class championship or finals at more than one Super Regional in a single season. Turns out the list is pretty small (Hornrank results is the source of my data):
Class Championships - a total of six times since the first SR in 2003 - five bands achieve it once, and one band achieves it twice.
- 2006 - Carmel wins 3A in Atlanta & St. Louis - 2011 - Marian Catholic wins 2A in St. Louis & Indianapolis - 2013 - Broken Arrow wins 4A in St. Louis & Atlanta - 2019 - Blue Springs wins 3A in St. Louis & Indianapolis - 2022 - Blue Springs wins 3A in St. Louis & Indianapolis - 2022 - Grain Valley wins 2A in St. Louis & Indianapolis
Finals Grand Champion - 2013 - Broken Arrow wins in St. Louis & Atlanta
There were several years that two SRs were held on the same weekend, so there are fewer opportunities to attend multiple SRs than it would seem. If someone has a better way to sift through the data than I do - please, by all means, tackle the Regionals!
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Post by iloveband on Oct 24, 2022 11:45:15 GMT -6
Y'all are so much better at BOA history than I am but these Indy SR results made me wonder how frequently that a band wins either class championship or finals at more than one Super Regional in a single season. Turns out the list is pretty small (Hornrank results is the source of my data):
Class Championships - a total of six times since the first SR in 2003 - five bands achieve it once, and one band achieves it twice.
- 2006 - Carmel wins 3A in Atlanta & St. Louis - 2011 - Marian Catholic wins 2A in St. Louis & Indianapolis - 2013 - Broken Arrow wins 4A in St. Louis & Atlanta - 2019 - Blue Springs wins 3A in St. Louis & Indianapolis - 2022 - Blue Springs wins 3A in St. Louis & Indianapolis - 2022 - Grain Valley wins 2A in St. Louis & Indianapolis mk
Finals Grand Champion - 2013 - Broken Arrow wins in St. Louis & Atlanta
There were several years that two SRs were held on the same weekend, so there are fewer opportunities to attend multiple SRs than it would seem. If someone has a better way to sift through the data than I do - please, by all means, tackle the Regionals![ ] The super regionals are so far away that most bands cannot attend one much less two
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Post by redpants on Oct 24, 2022 14:16:49 GMT -6
I now have Avon's show stuck in my head. The part that goes DUH DUH DUH - DUH - DUH...ya know the one? Sigh, yes... I wish I liked the music in this show; they lost 3 of the 4 music GE judges this past weekend. Visual GE was the decision-maker. Let's see if Carmel can step up their game in the next few weeks! I probably have a flawed understanding of general effect but Carmels show just didn’t generally affect me in the visual realm. I mean it seems like the visual design is based on the Vitruvian Man, a sort of rational exploration of the natural proportions of the human body. That’s neat and all, but not in an affective way that invokes my feelings. It’s like Carmel is appealing to the intellect instead of to the emotions, which seems like a lot harder way to achieve GE. I feel like the kids are doing great and their design is limiting the visual GE more than the kids’ ability to communicate.
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Post by Allohak on Oct 24, 2022 14:49:33 GMT -6
Sigh, yes... I wish I liked the music in this show; they lost 3 of the 4 music GE judges this past weekend. Visual GE was the decision-maker. Let's see if Carmel can step up their game in the next few weeks! I probably have a flawed understanding of general effect but Carmels show just didn’t generally affect me in the visual realm. I mean it seems like the visual design is based on the Vitruvian Man, a sort of rational exploration of the natural proportions of the human body. That’s neat and all, but not in an affective way that invokes my feelings. It’s like Carmel is appealing to the intellect instead of to the emotions, which seems like a lot harder way to achieve GE. I feel like the kids are doing great and their design is limiting the visual GE more than the kids’ ability to communicate. Carmel is very nuanced and coordinates the movements of the band/guard with what's going on in the music to an incredibly detailed degree. It's kind of like 2016 in that way
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2022 14:54:48 GMT -6
Sigh, yes... I wish I liked the music in this show; they lost 3 of the 4 music GE judges this past weekend. Visual GE was the decision-maker. Let's see if Carmel can step up their game in the next few weeks! I probably have a flawed understanding of general effect but Carmels show just didn’t generally affect me in the visual realm. I mean it seems like the visual design is based on the Vitruvian Man, a sort of rational exploration of the natural proportions of the human body. That’s neat and all, but not in an affective way that invokes my feelings. It’s like Carmel is appealing to the intellect instead of to the emotions, which seems like a lot harder way to achieve GE. I feel like the kids are doing great and their design is limiting the visual GE more than the kids’ ability to communicate. I agree it's an intellectual approach. The coordination of the choreography with the scale of the drill, to me, is just a remarkable thing when paired with that epic Barber score. But it's definitely paired back, like a fine dining restaurant with a minimal menu. I understand if it's not resonating with everyone the same way.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Oct 24, 2022 15:13:42 GMT -6
I probably have a flawed understanding of general effect but Carmels show just didn’t generally affect me in the visual realm. I mean it seems like the visual design is based on the Vitruvian Man, a sort of rational exploration of the natural proportions of the human body. That’s neat and all, but not in an affective way that invokes my feelings. It’s like Carmel is appealing to the intellect instead of to the emotions, which seems like a lot harder way to achieve GE. I feel like the kids are doing great and their design is limiting the visual GE more than the kids’ ability to communicate. I agree it's an intellectual approach. The coordination of the choreography with the scale of the drill, to me, is just a remarkable thing when paired with that epic Barber score. But it's definitely paired back, like a fine dining restaurant with a minimal menu. I understand if it's not resonating with everyone the same way. Agreed. Forgive my analogy. It’s like dining at a 5 star restaurant (Gaines design and student visual execution). Throw is a fine wine (guards) that teases you through the main course. Then they bring in a McDonalds number 2 with no mayonnaise (music demand and execution)!!!! That’s seems to be the Indiana recipes for BOA “seemingly” dominance and metal success. BOA and ISSMA agree a few decades now. I miss the Saucedo directorship era Greyhounds! But its probably just me?
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50fly
Senior Member
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Post by 50fly on Oct 24, 2022 15:40:32 GMT -6
I agree it's an intellectual approach. The coordination of the choreography with the scale of the drill, to me, is just a remarkable thing when paired with that epic Barber score. But it's definitely paired back, like a fine dining restaurant with a minimal menu. I understand if it's not resonating with everyone the same way. Agreed. Forgive my analogy. It’s like dining at a 5 star restaurant (Gaines design and student visual execution). Throw is a fine wine (guards) that teases you through the main course. Then they bring in a McDonalds number 2 with no mayonnaise (music demand and execution)!!!! That’s seems to be the Indiana recipes for BOA “seemingly” dominance and metal success. BOA and ISSMA agree a few decades now. I miss the Saucedo directorship era Greyhounds! But its probably just me? I agree, it’s definitely just you
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Oct 24, 2022 15:59:32 GMT -6
I agree, it’s definitely just you Or maybe this position includes much of TxBands, Oklahoma Band Central forums, KY Boards, California World of Pageantry commentaries, FMBA forums, Orlandos Florida City-Data forums, USBands Etc etc etc …. We all know that Hornrank was seemingly hijacked by MFA old dogs opinions after it was closed. Several ways to skin this comity marching band cat. I understand the sentiment and I truly respect it but your opinion is on the lower end of the Marching Arts spectrum. Unless you think BOA is the end all be all? If so, I’d rather not engage. FYI Florida, California and Tx pretty big and maybe the Midwest based individual circuits shouldn’t dictate marching world perimeters alone?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2022 16:13:54 GMT -6
Allow me to gush over how much I adore Carmel's approach to music on the field: the warmth and complexity of the brass, the powerful dynamic contrasts, the volume of molto ritardandos / accelerandos woven throughout the score... amazing. The woodwinds are exposed and balance the brass beautifully. Small moments build over time to massive rewards. They follow their own formula and make challenging music sound easy. Bravo!
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Post by thewho on Oct 24, 2022 16:16:25 GMT -6
I agree, it’s definitely just you Or maybe this position includes much of TxBands, Oklahoma Band Central forums, KY Boards, California World of Pageantry commentaries, FMBA forums, Orlandos Florida City-Data forums, Etc etc etc …. We all know that Hornrank was seemingly hijacked by MFA old dogs opinions after it was closed. Several ways to skim a cat. I understand the sentiment and I truly respect it but your opinion is on the lower end of the Marching Arts spectrum. Unless you think BOA is the end all be all? If so, I’d rather not engage. FYI Florida, California and Tx pretty big 👊🏻 Several things: 1. Claiming your position is the majority and attempting to outcast those with differing is not in the spirit of this forum and activity. So.... stop it. 2. I'll point you towards Occam's razor and go with the simplest answer for the migration from the BOA forums to Hornrank. The Hornrank forums was a natural alternative since it is largely focused on BOA, a nationwide circuit, much like the BOA forums were. There was no hijacking of any sort. 3. You already engaged with your response. You wouldn't have engaged if you just ignored the comment.
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Post by mrmatthews on Oct 24, 2022 17:15:30 GMT -6
I probably have a flawed understanding of general effect but Carmels show just didn’t generally affect me in the visual realm. I mean it seems like the visual design is based on the Vitruvian Man, a sort of rational exploration of the natural proportions of the human body. That’s neat and all, but not in an affective way that invokes my feelings. It’s like Carmel is appealing to the intellect instead of to the emotions, which seems like a lot harder way to achieve GE. I feel like the kids are doing great and their design is limiting the visual GE more than the kids’ ability to communicate. I agree it's an intellectual approach. The coordination of the choreography with the scale of the drill, to me, is just a remarkable thing when paired with that epic Barber score. But it's definitely paired back, like a fine dining restaurant with a minimal menu. I understand if it's not resonating with everyone the same way. Yeah, it's kind of non-existent. It's roasted duck, with a Pinot Grigio. All fine and easy. While Avon is bypassing the fine dining restaurant and fueling up with grab-and-go on their way to tear up the field.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2022 17:21:49 GMT -6
I agree it's an intellectual approach. The coordination of the choreography with the scale of the drill, to me, is just a remarkable thing when paired with that epic Barber score. But it's definitely paired back, like a fine dining restaurant with a minimal menu. I understand if it's not resonating with everyone the same way. Yeah, it's kind of non-existent. It's roasted duck, with a Pinot Grigio. All fine and easy. While Avon is bypassing the fine dining restaurant and fueling up with grab-and-go on their way to tear up the field. Ugh I regret the restaurant metaphor.
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Post by mrmatthews on Oct 24, 2022 17:23:13 GMT -6
TheWho. I know my opinion is interpreted as weightless in this forum for many but honesty the Texan in me wants to express a “Hold my Beer” Hold type response 🍺 Lolol. I do however respect you and forum roles plus we go way back on this forum. Ill just respectfully agree to disagree. I'd like to hear your opinion that got to this point. We can make a warning that Band Students not be offended by the following statement(s). Fair Enough? "txhillcountrybands" lets hear it.
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Post by mrmatthews on Oct 24, 2022 17:27:11 GMT -6
Yeah, it's kind of non-existent. It's roasted duck, with a Pinot Grigio. All fine and easy. While Avon is bypassing the fine dining restaurant and fueling up with grab-and-go on their way to tear up the field. Ugh I regret the restaurant metaphor. As well you should.
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Post by mrmatthews on Oct 24, 2022 17:52:50 GMT -6
Ugh I regret the restaurant metaphor. As well you should. I'd probably need to watch them both again, but my recollection was that Carmel played well and safe. Avon was far more physical and used up more ground while performing a similar caliber of music. Carmel is huge and sort of stood around like they were lost at times. Avon never got to that point and had a few break out visual MOMENTS that showcased their athleticism to get to the next spot and lay down some killer passages.
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Post by mrmatthews on Oct 24, 2022 18:47:07 GMT -6
As well you should. I'd probably need to watch them both again, but my recollection was that Carmel played well and safe. Avon was far more physical and used up more ground while performing a similar caliber of music. Carmel is huge and sort of stood around like they were lost at times. Avon never got to that point and had a few break out visual MOMENTS that showcased their athleticism to get to the next spot and lay down some killer passages. You replicated my thoughts. not literally (like the kids say) but figuratively. Avon was a superior visual band. They had places to be, they got there cleanly and quick, and they got up in your face and tore your skin off with a wall of low and high brass.
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50fly
Senior Member
Posts: 54
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Post by 50fly on Oct 24, 2022 18:52:46 GMT -6
I'd probably need to watch them both again, but my recollection was that Carmel played well and safe. Avon was far more physical and used up more ground while performing a similar caliber of music. Carmel is huge and sort of stood around like they were lost at times. Avon never got to that point and had a few break out visual MOMENTS that showcased their athleticism to get to the next spot and lay down some killer passages. You replicated my thoughts. not literally (like the kids say) but figuratively. Avon was a superior visual band. They had places to be, they got there cleanly and quick, and they got up in your face and tore your skin off with a wall of low and high brass. Did you just respond to and agree with your own comment? This is getting wild!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2022 18:55:02 GMT -6
I'd probably need to watch them both again, but my recollection was that Carmel played well and safe. Avon was far more physical and used up more ground while performing a similar caliber of music. Carmel is huge and sort of stood around like they were lost at times. Avon never got to that point and had a few break out visual MOMENTS that showcased their athleticism to get to the next spot and lay down some killer passages. You replicated my thoughts. not literally (like the kids say) but figuratively. Avon was a superior visual band. They had places to be, they got there cleanly and quick, and they got up in your face and tore your skin off with a wall of low and high brass. Why are you having a conversation with yourself
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Post by bandlover on Oct 24, 2022 19:39:40 GMT -6
I agree it's an intellectual approach. The coordination of the choreography with the scale of the drill, to me, is just a remarkable thing when paired with that epic Barber score. But it's definitely paired back, like a fine dining restaurant with a minimal menu. I understand if it's not resonating with everyone the same way. Agreed. Forgive my analogy. It’s like dining at a 5 star restaurant (Gaines design and student visual execution). Throw is a fine wine (guards) that teases you through the main course. Then they bring in a McDonalds number 2 with no mayonnaise (music demand and execution)!!!! That’s seems to be the Indiana recipes for BOA “seemingly” dominance and metal success. BOA and ISSMA agree a few decades now. I miss the Saucedo directorship era Greyhounds! But its probably just me?
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Post by mrmatthews on Oct 24, 2022 19:47:33 GMT -6
You replicated my thoughts. not literally (like the kids say) but figuratively. Avon was a superior visual band. They had places to be, they got there cleanly and quick, and they got up in your face and tore your skin off with a wall of low and high brass. Did you just respond to and agree with your own comment? This is getting wild!
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Post by redpants on Oct 24, 2022 20:42:41 GMT -6
Allow me to gush over how much I adore Carmel's approach to music on the field: the warmth and complexity of the brass, the powerful dynamic contrasts, the volume of molto ritardandos / accelerandos woven throughout the score... amazing. The woodwinds are exposed and balance the brass beautifully. Small moments build over time to massive rewards. They follow their own formula and make challenging music sound easy. Bravo! Yeah, I wasn’t ever taking issue with Carmel’s musical choices or performance, I really think both are fantastic. I am in no way equipped to evaluate relative merits of show design so I’m not trying to say that someone else’s isn’t as good…. I really just meant to ask if anyone else thought the visual effect was a little less powerful than other shows’ impact and was wondering aloud why that might be. Perhaps I need to take a broader view and understand that to achieve success in GE, not every show needs to move me as deeply as, say, BA, FloMo and Avon did last year.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2022 21:04:34 GMT -6
Allow me to gush over how much I adore Carmel's approach to music on the field: the warmth and complexity of the brass, the powerful dynamic contrasts, the volume of molto ritardandos / accelerandos woven throughout the score... amazing. The woodwinds are exposed and balance the brass beautifully. Small moments build over time to massive rewards. They follow their own formula and make challenging music sound easy. Bravo! Yeah, I wasn’t ever taking issue with Carmel’s musical choices or performance, I really think both are fantastic. I am in no way equipped to evaluate relative merits of show design so I’m not trying to say that someone else’s isn’t as good…. I really just meant to ask if anyone else thought the visual effect was a little less powerful than other shows’ impact and was wondering aloud why that might be. Perhaps I need to take a broader view and understand that to achieve success in GE, not every show needs to move me as deeply as, say, BA, FloMo and Avon did last year. I knew you weren't taking issue with the music But another person was, and I felt defensive because it was baseless. I suppose the power of Carmel's visual comes from nuance. Every step/toss is carefully choreographed with the score, and the eye always has a path to follow.
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Post by novicebanddad on Oct 24, 2022 21:43:21 GMT -6
If what you're saying is true, I don't think that's how's they should do it. They should be judged on the same scale, regardless if it's prelims or finals. There should be no soft judging in prelims. I don't see how that would be possible. Lets say youre judging music ensemble, the actual number is pretty much all based off the score you give the first band. First band performs. you decide they should get a 15. Now the next band comes on. If you feel they are better than the first band, they get more than 15 in music. If the first band is better? Second band has to get less than 15. Its the only way to do it. The only way you could do this on a set scale is if you had already decided placements before they performed, and no one thinks that's a good idea. . What you've stated proves my exact point. Different Panels can start at a different number/ranking for the first band. This can then skew the rest of one Panel's scores from another's. Sorry, there's just way too much subjectivity at the 2-4 point level. I agree that most bands fall within the general range of where they belong, but winning first to fifth place out of 60-120 bands needs to have more precision and accuracy. I'm thinking about how to do that - it could involve drones and uploading of dots plus strategically placed microphones that measure tone quality and volume. The "feeling" would still need human measurement, but that should include a fixed number of people with diverse representation - i.e. only one person from any one state, variation of backgrounds, etc. - to help avoid favoritism.
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Post by bandirectorman on Oct 24, 2022 22:07:54 GMT -6
I don't see how that would be possible. Lets say youre judging music ensemble, the actual number is pretty much all based off the score you give the first band. First band performs. you decide they should get a 15. Now the next band comes on. If you feel they are better than the first band, they get more than 15 in music. If the first band is better? Second band has to get less than 15. Its the only way to do it. The only way you could do this on a set scale is if you had already decided placements before they performed, and no one thinks that's a good idea. . What you've stated proves my exact point. Different Panels can start at a different number/ranking for the first band. This can then skew the rest of one Panel's scores from another's. Sorry, there's just way too much subjectivity at the 2-4 point level. I agree that most bands fall within the general range of where they belong, but winning first to fifth place out of 60-120 bands needs to have more precision and accuracy. I'm thinking about how to do that - it could involve drones and uploading of dots plus strategically placed microphones that measure tone quality and volume. The "feeling" would still need human measurement, but that should include a fixed number of people with diverse representation - i.e. only one person from any one state, variation of backgrounds, etc. - to help avoid favoritism. This is why a band's score, even at the top end of BOA Grand National Finals, which is apparently soaring higher and higher because of a lack of self-control by the judging panels (with a high floor guaranteed), should be discounted just about every time. Some people believe that 100 points is perfection and scoring a 98 means that a band is close to that. It is never the case w/ high school marching band. Even in the top bands, there are always weak links. The biggest issue that I have with BOA Grand Nationals in terms of scoring has to do with their Top 22 and Next 8 philosophy in semifinals or their regional Top/Bottom draws. I believe that it creates an unfair perception of what future performance may/may not look like and heavily influences judging. For example, let's say you are in Classes A or AA, which typically have a few more automatic qualifiers into semifinals for class representation. Band A, who performs for one judging panel on Thursday and places 22nd overall and Band B, who performs on Friday, places 23rd. Because it is absolutely clear who is in the Top 22 versus the Next 8, conceivably the bands that place 22nd and 23rd (even if they are tied and the tie is broken by higher GE), ARE MILES APART. So, Band A performs among the Top 22, sometimes right next to the top 3-5 scoring bands from prelims, and Band B is segregated to the early morning or late afternoon, with the 30th place bands and automatic qualifiers, who could have placed 36th. I believe that this gives judges the lazy way out in terms of judging the semifinal round. Same with regionals. Regional Finals, with a Top 6-7/Bottom 6/7 Draw, may give us a quick preview of how prelims unfolded, but screws the bands who perhaps didn't have the best prelims performance or played for a more sympathetic or generous panel on a different day. Randomize the order of performances and hold judges more accountable. I realize that numbers management is always a concern, especially with so many bands involved, but especially in the smaller classes that are essentially competing (some years) for a National Class Championship & exhibition performance, it seems nearly impossible for a Next 8 band to jump a Top 22 band, because it's too easy for judges to set a floor for the Top 22 that is above the ceiling for a Next 8 (23rd-30th) band. It's a huge flaw, but one workaround here would be to automatically qualify the Top 2 bands in each class or so into BOA Finals. Class representation in a 14 band finals and no exhibitions. This is a bit of a rant, but your post got me thinking about irresponsible numbers management & how BOA has done nothing to quell concerns on the matter. Top 22, Next 8 means that the more favored bands (usually larger groups) don't have to wake up at 6am most of the time, but it does screw over every other band who also qualified to play in the same round. Their decision to not fully randomize Grand National Finals is just as bad. The Top/Bottom definitely screws everyone, even if the ultimate champion or Top 6 from semifinals is not impacted. As we all know, high school students are not robots, so there can be some changes in performances between rounds.
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Post by 21saxmom on Oct 25, 2022 11:25:27 GMT -6
Yeah, I wasn’t ever taking issue with Carmel’s musical choices or performance, I really think both are fantastic. I am in no way equipped to evaluate relative merits of show design so I’m not trying to say that someone else’s isn’t as good…. I really just meant to ask if anyone else thought the visual effect was a little less powerful than other shows’ impact and was wondering aloud why that might be. Perhaps I need to take a broader view and understand that to achieve success in GE, not every show needs to move me as deeply as, say, BA, FloMo and Avon did last year. I find this very interesting. As I watched several bands who I thought had a more grabby, in-your-face Visual than Carmel, I was surprised at how little marching while playing was happening. There were several bands whose bright uniforms/props/tarps/etc were stunning, but there was so much "everyone run around out of sync with each other and then end up on your dot and hit the big notes". I think of all the schools I noted in this category I would say Mason did a fair amount of marching while playing. I agree that Carmel did not have that "wow" with this particular show (as much as they DID have it with last year's Expanse with the giant black props and in-your-face musical command). But when I was watching what the marchers were accomplishing, I did see so much drill and SO many formations that happened while they were playing what I think is a complicated piece of music, with more tempo changes than I could count. If that's not your thing, it's not your thing. And it may not get them high visual scores because they don't slap you in the face - which is a shame because I think it's the best true marching I saw all night.
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