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Post by philodemus on Oct 31, 2022 8:12:06 GMT -6
Something I have long wondered about... what is it like to compete in states that don't have a true, fully participated in, well-organized, State Championship series? Indiana, Texas, and my own Commonwealth have long standing, very-big-deal-to-everyone-involved championship series that serve as the capstone of the season for bands who aren't headed to Grand Nationals. They're the 'Big Enchilada,' the emotional payoff that everything else leads up to... they serve as the organizing principle around which early season, local shows are structured. Additionally, I've always thought that they make it easier to explain to your local community what you're doing: you compete with other local schools that they know about from football and basketball, etc., and 'winning State' is something that even the most band-uninformed principal or local newspaper can understand as a goal and accomplishment. So what's it like not to have that? - If you're one of those geographically isolated programs where no other school in your area is into it, does that make it hard to sell the program to the local community and get support?
- If you're in a state where lots of bands are into it, but the rules might be different at every contest... isn't that super frustrating?
- And, god forbid, you're in one of those states where multiple events try to sell themselves as 'State Championships'... how do you decide?
- And if there's no 'State' of any kind at all... how do you decide when the season is... you know... over? Do you just pick a contest?
Just curious what the challenges are... and are their any advantages?
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Post by dbalash on Oct 31, 2022 9:12:12 GMT -6
Quite frankly, it's embarrassing. Week to week, the judging system/scoring rubric in Illinois is inconsistent. One show will have the standard BOA judging system with a color guard and percussion judge thrown in, and that's fine! Works for me. Then you have a show somewhere else that same weekend that has some weird multiplier, or the percussion and color guard are thrown in to the final score, or God forbid, a parade aspect of the competition. A band can win the field portion of the show by 5 points and can't possibly be named grand champion because they didn't perform in the stupid parade. Throw in how classes are arranged (band size, school size, some weird amalgamation of the two), and it's wild.
Each and every single one of the major universities (the directional schools, U of I, ISU) have their own competitions, but ISU is the only one that draws more than 1 or 2 "big names." U of I bills themselves as the "Illinois Marching Band Championships." ISU - "Illinois State Marching Band Championships." It's not uncommon to drive around the state and see the "welcome to" signs say "home of the xxxx Class xx State Champion." Uh, no. You won an invitational class, not a be all end all class title. There's a school that has an Illinois State Champion banner hanging in their gym because they competed in the FloMarching virtual stuff in 2020. They, I believe, were the only school to compete in it in Illinois.
IHSA announced the formation of an ad hoc committee to study a marching band state series all the way back in 2011. Nothing ever came of that, but marching band has been listed on their website as an "emerging sport" for quite some time - in recent years, they've had 40-50 schools listed (including names like Morton); now they're down to 5, three of which do not compete at all, Taft, which competed 4 times this year, and Naperville North, which now competes once a year.
Forgot to mention: Illinois has state series in the following: bass fishing, journalism, chess, and esports, of which there are 8 different games that they hold finals in.
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Post by hewhowaits on Oct 31, 2022 9:24:14 GMT -6
Ohio bands have OMEA which holds a State Marching Band Finals event. This is not officially called a "State Championship" but many schools likely refer to it as such.
There are a number of bands that are very familiar to those who follow BOA that don't participate in OMEA events (typically due to the perceived "value" in doing so). Most of these bands participate in MSBA (mostly Southwest Ohio, Northern Kentucky, and Southeastern Indiana) which holds Championships the first weekend in November. There is no qualifying toward MSBA Finals other than a requirement to have participated in or hosted at least one other MSBA event during the season.
And there are some schools such as Miamisburg that intentionally schedule participation in BOA, MSBA, and OMEA every year.
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Post by principalagent on Oct 31, 2022 9:38:06 GMT -6
There's a school that has an Illinois State Champion banner hanging in their gym because they competed in the FloMarching virtual stuff in 2020. They, I believe, were the only school to compete in it in Illinois. Pack it up guys. This is peak marching band. Can’t get better than this!
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Post by ilikeguard on Oct 31, 2022 9:44:21 GMT -6
Missouri bands have long used the BOA St. Louis Super Regional in lieu of a state contest. As of this year, there is now technically a state contest; though it doesn't take a Missourian to grasp that the bands competing did not represent the competitive scene in the state whatsoever. The only band competing that has any sort of national acclaim was Hollister, who has medaled at San Antonio and St. Louis...in Class A.
It's now difficult to get into St. Louis finals as a Missouri band (if you aren't Blue Springs). Even well-accomplished bands such as Grain Valley and Camdenton have had trouble in the last 5 years. It's clear that it can't be used as the end-of-season contest if you're actually looking for a second performance, much less one alongside bands from your state. Greater St. Louis features, and is dominated, by Illinois bands. If these bands do start attending MSMA, there will be a state contest that actually exists on a recognizable scale. But it will take a band like Blue Springs going in order to encourage other bands to come out and attend, and then one of the next top 5 in order to create any sort of stakes. Those top 5 bands (Blue Springs, Grain Valley, Camdenton, Blue Springs South, and Kickapoo) don't even go to the same contests, either. Four of them went to Indianapolis this year, but once again, it's dominated by Indiana bands. I'm not a huge fan of MSMA sheets, and I can see where these competitive bands wouldn't like them either. They're catered to small-town bands (which is totally fine for what they're doing now). If, in the future, MSMA wants to draw in the larger groups, they will need to eliminate the parade category, and IMO follow the OBA model where there's a prelims and finals contest. As much as I'm not a huge fan of band size-based classes, I do think that band size-based classes/achievement-based classes would better fit Missouri bands. (I wouldn't mind seeing them use MSHSAA classification, but I personally would rather keep a smaller but higher achieving school like Camdenton or Grain Valley in the same contest as Blue Springs and Kickapoo).
Therefore, the model I see coming to fruition in a perfect world looks like:
Class 4A: Blue Springs, Grain Valley, Camdenton, Blue Springs South, Kickapoo, Lindbergh, Timberland, Fort Zumwalt North, Nixa, Hickman
Class 3A: Rock Bridge, Battle, Hollister, Sullivan, Oakville, Windsor, Francis Howell, Ozark, Lee's Summit, Rockwood Summit, Washington
Class 2A: Wentzville Holt, Lafayette, Fort Zumwalt West, Francis Howell North, Willard, Branson, Logan-Rogersville, Liberty North, Truman, Lee's Summit North
Class 1A: Wright City, Reeds Spring, Raytown, Raytown South, Republic, Marquette, Fox, Union, Seneca, Nevada, Parkway South
There is demand for a state contest (I've made a case above for at LEAST two days or separate locations of events, provided the bands attend). The state contest exists as an entity, but is yet to be attended by many nationally notable bands (only Wright City and Hollister compete in BOA). If the bands I listed above attend MSMA within the next few years, I'll consider it to be a state circuit. It's not for a lack of talent, as there are multiple GN semifinalists in the state, as well as several groups using top designers. It's really only a matter of getting them all in one place. Yes, Blue Springs would always win. Broken Arrow always wins too.
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Post by philodemus on Oct 31, 2022 10:01:44 GMT -6
I knew about that OMEA thing in Ohio... but if I understand correctly, that's more like concert festival where you get a rating instead of a score and placement? Perhaps that's no longer the case, but to me it would be the worst of both worlds.
I had also heard about the MSMA experiment in Missouri. Is that run through the state music educator's association? I've often wondered if that was key in getting a state circuit off the ground.
One thing that occurs to me is that I would guess a state championship series would almost have to have the series part in place in order to be successful in appealing to bands at different levels. Like, you need different tiers of achievement so that at each level of development you have an achievable next goal to strive for. If all you had was a single State Finals, then why would the lower level groups choose to compete knowing in advance all they can do is get their butts kicked?
Just thinking out loud, really.
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Post by Pie on Oct 31, 2022 10:11:20 GMT -6
Quite frankly, it's embarrassing. Week to week, the judging system/scoring rubric in Illinois is inconsistent. One show will have the standard BOA judging system with a color guard and percussion judge thrown in, and that's fine! Works for me. Then you have a show somewhere else that same weekend that has some weird multiplier, or the percussion and color guard are thrown in to the final score, or God forbid, a parade aspect of the competition. A band can win the field portion of the show by 5 points and can't possibly be named grand champion because they didn't perform in the stupid parade. Throw in how classes are arranged (band size, school size, some weird amalgamation of the two), and it's wild. Each and every single one of the major universities (the directional schools, U of I, ISU) have their own competitions, but ISU is the only one that draws more than 1 or 2 "big names." U of I bills themselves as the "Illinois Marching Band Championships." ISU - "Illinois State Marching Band Championships." It's not uncommon to drive around the state and see the "welcome to" signs say "home of the xxxx Class xx State Champion." Uh, no. You won an invitational class, not a be all end all class title. There's a school that has an Illinois State Champion banner hanging in their gym because they competed in the FloMarching virtual stuff in 2020. They, I believe, were the only school to compete in it in Illinois. IHSA announced the formation of an ad hoc committee to study a marching band state series all the way back in 2011. Nothing ever came of that, but marching band has been listed on their website as an "emerging sport" for quite some time - in recent years, they've had 40-50 schools listed (including names like Morton); now they're down to 5, three of which do not compete at all, Taft, which competed 4 times this year, and Naperville North, which now competes once a year. Forgot to mention: Illinois has state series in the following: bass fishing, journalism, chess, and esports, of which there are 8 different games that they hold finals in. Its always been absurd to me that Illinois of all states, with its extremely successful history in BOA, has just never had anything close to a state circuit. Even the big """state""" competitions are often held on the same day, so we can't even get a majority of bands to perform in the same place on the same day. Maybe getting an Illinois state circuit can be Mr. Bimm's retirement project (if he ever retires ).
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Post by dbalash on Oct 31, 2022 10:14:23 GMT -6
One thing that occurs to me is that I would guess a state championship series would almost have to have the series part in place in order to be successful in appealing to bands at different levels. Like, you need different tiers of achievement so that at each level of development you have an achievable next goal to strive for. If all you had was a single State Finals, then why would the lower level groups choose to compete knowing in advance all they can do is get their butts kicked? Just thinking out loud, really. I'd be all for something similar to what Indiana does. If you're a developing band or if you're going through a major director change (i.e., someone who's been there a long time and retires or moves on), you can perform in "scholastic" class. When you start to dominate, or, as a band director, feel comfortable, you'll move up to the Open Class.
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Post by dbalash on Oct 31, 2022 10:48:09 GMT -6
And, Illinois schools that host...please get on Competition Suite or omniSTAR or something similar. It's 2022. I shouldn't be seeing handwritten recaps.
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Post by paddy on Oct 31, 2022 12:17:47 GMT -6
And, Illinois schools that host...please get on Competition Suite or omniSTAR or something similar. It's 2022. I shouldn't be seeing handwritten recaps. Directors still getting comments via micro cassette?
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Oct 31, 2022 14:45:09 GMT -6
I knew about that OMEA thing in Ohio... but if I understand correctly, that's more like concert festival where you get a rating instead of a score and placement? Perhaps that's no longer the case, but to me it would be the worst of both worlds. On the one hand, I remember students grumbling back in the 1980s that Ohio's State Finals "isn't really a competition." On the other hand, my personal experience as a student at that time was that it felt great to get a I and very disappointing to get a II. For a band on the cusp, it makes a huge difference. (My freshman year was the band's first time ever even qualifying for state.) For a consistently solid band, State Finals (or "States," as some schools refer to it: "We're going to States!") is probably something of a letdown.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Oct 31, 2022 15:24:34 GMT -6
I am only speculating here. Most of the well established circuits with a state championships got their start in the 1970s or early 1980s. During that time period Illinois had as many if not more bands competing in summer competitive circuits as they did the fall circuits. I believe the summer circuit involved multiple Midwest states (the name is not coming to me at the momemt). I wonder if that affected a more organized state championship circuit from developing back during those formative years. Dan certainly highlighted some of the more recent challenges.
I know that Indiana, Michigan and New York started their state competitive circuits and state championships in the 1970s and Kentucky and Pennsylvania started in the 1980s. Ohio always seemed to have competitions where they were not scored but instead had ratings or something to that affect. Years back, I read that the Ohio system is what drove a lot of Ohio bands to BOA.
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Post by kvgdc on Oct 31, 2022 17:41:43 GMT -6
I am only speculating here. Most of the well established circuits with a state championships got their start in the 1970s or early 1980s. During that time period Illinois had as many if not more bands competing in summer competitive circuits as they did the fall circuits. I believe the summer circuit involved multiple Midwest states (the name is not coming to me at the momemt). I wonder if that affected a more organized state championship circuit from developing back during those formative years. Dan certainly highlighted some of the more recent challenges. I know that Indiana, Michigan and New York started their state competitive circuits and state championships in the 1970s and Kentucky and Pennsylvania started in the 1980s. Ohio always seemed to have competitions where they were not scored but instead had ratings or something to that affect. Years back, I read that the Ohio system is what drove a lot of Ohio bands to BOA. Yah, ISSMA (Indiana) was started for field shows in 1973. Prior to that, and for some time concurrent though the "best band in the state" was generally whoever won the track show competition at the State Fair though. By the early 80s you had bands specilaizing in track show or field show but rarely doing both anymore as the cost to go to Indy twice was high and doing a track show in the summer up until August when the State Fair happened meant delaying getting your field show on the field. This coincided with the rise of asymmetrical drill and such and corps style shows rather than 'halftime band' shows. Even through into the late 80s, ISSMA state finals was the 'end' even if you went to GN afterwards, that was a 'special trip' and shows were written to ISSMA sheets (probably to the detriment of placement at MBA shows at times.) That all changed as MBA becaome BOA and planted itself in Indy making itself way more accessible to more Indiana bands. But even in the earliest of those days, it was considered a bigger deal to win ISSMA finals than what you did at Grand Nats. Michigan had a circuit that would send bands on to those early MBA shows and Kentucky seemed to have one too. The Chicago area bands seemed to have a circuit they'd run before coming to MBA shows but it wasn't statewide through Illinois.
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Post by antroot on Oct 31, 2022 17:58:47 GMT -6
Something I have long wondered about... what is it like to compete in states that don't have a true, fully participated in, well-organized, State Championship series? Indiana, Texas, and my own Commonwealth have long standing, very-big-deal-to-everyone-involved championship series that serve as the capstone of the season for bands who aren't headed to Grand Nationals. They're the 'Big Enchilada,' the emotional payoff that everything else leads up to... they serve as the organizing principle around which early season, local shows are structured. Additionally, I've always thought that they make it easier to explain to your local community what you're doing: you compete with other local schools that they know about from football and basketball, etc., and 'winning State' is something that even the most band-uninformed principal or local newspaper can understand as a goal and accomplishment. So what's it like not to have that? - If you're one of those geographically isolated programs where no other school in your area is into it, does that make it hard to sell the program to the local community and get support?
- If you're in a state where lots of bands are into it, but the rules might be different at every contest... isn't that super frustrating?
- And, god forbid, you're in one of those states where multiple events try to sell themselves as 'State Championships'... how do you decide?
- And if there's no 'State' of any kind at all... how do you decide when the season is... you know... over? Do you just pick a contest?
Just curious what the challenges are... and are their any advantages? I can say for the northwest region of the country, the closest thing the region has to a State Championships is the NWAPA Championships hosted in Oregon. It really sucks. If a Washington band really wants to be taken seriously, they need to make the trek down to Eugene, Oregon. It's extremely hard to sell marching band to kids and their families in Washington because the culture has just been historically weak here. It amazes me that absolutely NO marching bands operate out of Seattle. No big ones, small ones, not a one. In general it's just a mess up here. The Pacific Northwest Marching Band Championships in Mead, WA must be some left-over name from a by-gone era in the state. It's an early competition, has a decent showing of bands from Washington (and maybe one Oregon band), but to call to themselves that name is a bit much. NWAPA Champs, as I said, is the closest to a State competition here. It does serve as a state competition for Washington too, as it lacks one. However, the placement of NWAPA Champs is poor for Washington bands. Only THREE Washington bands are attending this year (Kamiak, Skyview, and Kelso). Ridgeline, Cheney, Mt. Spokane, Chiawana, Hanford, Central Valley, so many great Washington bands just don't go because it's too far. Not worth it. Many of the aforementioned bands have ended their seasons by now, at less exciting competitions. For these bands it's just, "Alright guys, I guess we end here." Ridgeline, who was seriously a contender for best marching band in the PNW region... did their last show on Saturday. No chance for them to match-up with the current best band here, Grants Pass, at NWAPA Champs. Eugh. Just typing this all out is frustrating. If anyone has any more questions about how this activity is run up here, please ask.
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Post by Subito Fortissimo on Oct 31, 2022 19:57:00 GMT -6
North Carolina here. There has been a significant desire for a state championship here for as long as I've been around the activity. However there is a small, but very vocal contingent of directors who are adamantly anti-competitive marching band and who have inserted themselves into positions of influence in the NCBA over the years to make sure a state championship doesn't happen. (Some of these same directors spend the their Fall Saturdays judging at marching band competitions. Go figure.) There have been rumblings off and on about efforts over the years to get something started outside of the NCBA sphere but loyalty to the organization is such that it never really goes anywhere. I don't think it will ever happen until the NCBA itself sanctions it and that may still be decades away. In the meantime there are NCBA sanctioned judging sheets that show hosts can use, and most of the significant shows in the state do use them. There are plenty of other shows that do not. There are non-NCBA shows in the state that you would never even know the show existed unless you where in the Carolinas band scene and you will never find their results posted online besides maybe some individual band results on social media. Not even statechamp1239 would be able to find them Without having something like a state championship to work towards most bands base the end of their season off a specific weekend rather than aiming towards a big show. The band I work with competed for a final time this past Saturday at a local non-NCBA show. I would wager that a lot of the bands who attended Cary Band Day saw that as a big show to end their season. And then there are the handful of NC bands that sometimes attend GN who do have something much more significant to look forwards to. BITD there was a big end of the season show every year at UNC-Chapel Hill that was sort of seen as a de facto State Championship with some bands from SC and VA attending at times. But that show ended in 2001. Interestingly US Bands has never made much of an attempt to set up a state championship as they have done in other states. They did hold a show at Wake Forest from 2011-2013 IIRC but it was fairly lightly attended so I guess they decided it wasn't worth the investment.
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Post by bigtrombone on Oct 31, 2022 20:22:47 GMT -6
South Dakota:
Honestly I have no idea how you even implement a state champion system here for two reasons:
1. The ratio of competitive field show marching bands east of the Missouri River (Sioux Falls area, Mitchell, Brookings, etc.) compared to that west of the Missouri River (Rapid City area, Black Hills) is extremely skewed towards east river. Also the majority of viable host stadiums are located on the extreme east side of the state (Howard Wood Field and the Augustana & USF football stadiums in Sioux Falls, Dana J. Dykhouse Stadium in Brookings, and the DakotaDome in Vermillion), which would mean a 200-300 mile trip for any bands west of the Missouri who would want to compete.
2. It would be tough for most bands to compete when 2 bands run away with the competition. Those who have followed the upper midwestern circuit this year know which 2 bands I'm talking about.
To be honest, just like how Missouri bands have been using the St. Louis Super Regional in lieu of a state championship, South Dakota bands have been using Youth In Music or the USBands Quad State Competition as their de facto state championship.
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Post by oldarmybandguy on Oct 31, 2022 23:18:48 GMT -6
California fits this description-obviously the size of the state and the separation between north and south makes it difficult-but Texas had created a model for many schools to participate. As it stands, there are 3 large “circuits” that for all intents and purposes have unique judging criteria and have their own accomplished bands that never cross-compete. Southern California used to have an invitational championship-but it lost its luster back in the 90s. Honestly, there are California bands that could be on the ALGORITHM rankings if they competed directly with some of the bands on the list like Chino Hills and San Marcos
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 1, 2022 7:12:57 GMT -6
North Carolina here. There has been a significant desire for a state championship here for as long as I've been around the activity. However there is a small, but very vocal contingent of directors who are adamantly anti-competitive marching band and who have inserted themselves into positions of influence in the NCBA over the years to make sure a state championship doesn't happen. (Some of these same directors spend the their Fall Saturdays judging at marching band competitions. Go figure.) The folks who want a State Championship event need to stop hiring those individuals as judges for their shows.
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Post by philodemus on Nov 1, 2022 7:44:43 GMT -6
However there is a small, but very vocal contingent of directors who are adamantly anti-competitive marching band and who have inserted themselves into positions of influence in the NCBA over the years to make sure a state championship doesn't happen. This has always struck me as the strangest and most infuriating aspect of our activity. Our competitive activity is frequently run by people who hate it... or worse, affect a 'hipster' disdain for it to prove how serious they are... or even worse than that, really love it, but are afraid to say so for fear of being judged unserious by their peers. Like, I'm pretty sure football coaches are unafraid of saying that they love football. When the coaches get together I'm sure no one feels the need to say, "Now of course, we only do this because the kids like it... I personally wish we could focus on the weightlifting instead of all this silliness with the ball and points... of course." It's like they all can't get over that time in college their studio teacher rolled their eyes at them having to go marching band rehearsal.
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Post by paddy on Nov 1, 2022 8:06:56 GMT -6
However there is a small, but very vocal contingent of directors who are adamantly anti-competitive marching band and who have inserted themselves into positions of influence in the NCBA over the years to make sure a state championship doesn't happen. This has always struck me as the strangest and most infuriating aspect of our activity. Our competitive activity is frequently run by people who hate it... or worse, affect a 'hipster' disdain for it to prove how serious they are... or even worse than that, really love it, but are afraid to say so for fear of being judged unserious by their peers. Like, I'm pretty sure football coaches are unafraid of saying that they love football. When the coaches get together I'm sure no one feels the need to say, "Now of course, we only do this because the kids like it... I personally wish we could focus on the weightlifting instead of all this silliness with the ball and points... of course." It's like they all can't get over that time in college their studio teacher rolled their eyes at them having to go marching band rehearsal.
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Post by oldarmybandguy on Nov 1, 2022 9:02:51 GMT -6
However there is a small, but very vocal contingent of directors who are adamantly anti-competitive marching band and who have inserted themselves into positions of influence in the NCBA over the years to make sure a state championship doesn't happen. This has always struck me as the strangest and most infuriating aspect of our activity. Our competitive activity is frequently run by people who hate it... or worse, affect a 'hipster' disdain for it to prove how serious they are... or even worse than that, really love it, but are afraid to say so for fear of being judged unserious by their peers. Like, I'm pretty sure football coaches are unafraid of saying that they love football. When the coaches get together I'm sure no one feels the need to say, "Now of course, we only do this because the kids like it... I personally wish we could focus on the weightlifting instead of all this silliness with the ball and points... of course." It's like they all can't get over that time in college their studio teacher rolled their eyes at them having to go marching band rehearsal. It's also fair to assume that some musicians have an aversion to competition in and of itself. I can honestly say that I was this way early in my own musical career. Performing for judges in a large band was fun because, even though I contributed, if there were weaknesses, they weren't "my" weaknesses. Putting yourself out there to be judged can be difficult, because no one likes to lose...but competition is what breeds and hones excellence. Bands like Carmel and Avon hitting the heights they hit is a direct correlation to their competitive posture towards one another.
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Post by Subito Fortissimo on Nov 1, 2022 13:44:39 GMT -6
However there is a small, but very vocal contingent of directors who are adamantly anti-competitive marching band and who have inserted themselves into positions of influence in the NCBA over the years to make sure a state championship doesn't happen. This has always struck me as the strangest and most infuriating aspect of our activity. Our competitive activity is frequently run by people who hate it... or worse, affect a 'hipster' disdain for it to prove how serious they are... or even worse than that, really love it, but are afraid to say so for fear of being judged unserious by their peers. Like, I'm pretty sure football coaches are unafraid of saying that they love football. When the coaches get together I'm sure no one feels the need to say, "Now of course, we only do this because the kids like it... I personally wish we could focus on the weightlifting instead of all this silliness with the ball and points... of course." It's like they all can't get over that time in college their studio teacher rolled their eyes at them having to go marching band rehearsal. Based on some conversations I've had with directors over the years I honestly believe that a lot of the anti-competition sentiment comes from a place selfishness. Most of these directors are at schools where the only expectation around marching band is to have a group at football games to play the fight song and entertain the crowd. But they fear that if there was an official state circuit leading to a state championship competition then their school admin would ask them why they are not participating and require them to take part. After all, the sports teams all compete in official competitions that lead to a state championship in some form. Those directors like their situation where they only have to practice maybe a couple hours the week of a game, or maybe even none outside of class time. If they were suddenly required to field a competitive ensemble their time commitment would go from just a handful of hours each Fall to hundreds of hours. So instead they hold the rest of us hostage who do want a state championship.
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Post by philodemus on Nov 1, 2022 14:06:11 GMT -6
This has always struck me as the strangest and most infuriating aspect of our activity. Our competitive activity is frequently run by people who hate it... or worse, affect a 'hipster' disdain for it to prove how serious they are... or even worse than that, really love it, but are afraid to say so for fear of being judged unserious by their peers. Like, I'm pretty sure football coaches are unafraid of saying that they love football. When the coaches get together I'm sure no one feels the need to say, "Now of course, we only do this because the kids like it... I personally wish we could focus on the weightlifting instead of all this silliness with the ball and points... of course." It's like they all can't get over that time in college their studio teacher rolled their eyes at them having to go marching band rehearsal. Based on some conversations I've had with directors over the years I honestly believe that a lot of the anti-competition sentiment comes from a place selfishness. Most of these directors are at schools where the only expectation around marching band is to have a group at football games to play the fight song and entertain the crowd. But they fear that if there was an official state circuit leading to a state championship competition then their school admin would ask them why they are not participating and require them to take part. After all, the sports teams all compete in official competitions that lead to a state championship in some form. Those directors like their situation where they only have to practice maybe a couple hours the week of a game, or maybe even none outside of class time. If they were suddenly required to field a competitive ensemble their time commitment would go from just a handful of hours each Fall to hundreds of hours. So instead they hold the rest of us hostage who do want a state championship. Yep... I have run into this sort of thing too... and it always makes me think, "Well, if you didn't want to be a band director, there were other options."
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 1, 2022 16:44:22 GMT -6
Having a competitive marching band circuit with competitions makes bands stronger. Yes many great bands come and go, but they always keep raising the bar for the next great ones that follow.
BOA has certainly helped with bands who are in areas without a more organized competitive circuit. I can also see how bands from a small population state like South Dakota would be a part of competitions involving a more regional/multi state area.
We have had a lot of bands in Michigan that were at one time in the more competitive MCBA (which runs the state championships) that have since dropped out of that circuit for the Michigan Scholastic Bands, a circuit for less competitive and/or festival bands. Mona Shores is a good example. They won multiple state titles in Flight II and III in the 90s and early 2000s. They had a new director in the mid 2000s and some financial strain. The decision was made to focus their resources more on teaching music through their concert band programs. They still have a marching band that performs for the football games and participates in the scholastic circuit, but it is not as costly or time consuming compared to their competitive marching band. Now even though I still miss Mona Shores, I respect that decision. So my point is that I can understand why a director may not want to lead a BOA competitive or equivalent program, especially if the school district does not want to or can not afford to adequately compensate them for the enormous amount of extra time that is involved.
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Post by principalagent on Nov 1, 2022 21:06:13 GMT -6
I know y'all don’t want to hear me laud my home state, but there is a benefit to having (1) a football culture that lifts all related activities and (2) a statewide organizing body that is tied to the government and the education agency which sanctions all events and links their fates together such that the very clear incentive (if not mandate) is to compete. It’s created an unmatched depth in the state and a storied marching band culture that stretches from the Red River to the Rio Grande and the Palo Duro Canyon to the Gulf Coast.
It just means more.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 1, 2022 21:59:35 GMT -6
However there is a small, but very vocal contingent of directors who are adamantly anti-competitive marching band and who have inserted themselves into positions of influence in the NCBA over the years to make sure a state championship doesn't happen. This has always struck me as the strangest and most infuriating aspect of our activity. Our competitive activity is frequently run by people who hate it... or worse, affect a 'hipster' disdain for it to prove how serious they are... or even worse than that, really love it, but are afraid to say so for fear of being judged unserious by their peers. Like, I'm pretty sure football coaches are unafraid of saying that they love football. When the coaches get together I'm sure no one feels the need to say, "Now of course, we only do this because the kids like it... I personally wish we could focus on the weightlifting instead of all this silliness with the ball and points... of course." It's like they all can't get over that time in college their studio teacher rolled their eyes at them having to go marching band rehearsal. Isn't that question begging? What is "our competitive activity"? Marching band as a whole? Even if we restrict that to high schools, then I think by number of schools, it's not a competitive activity. If I'm wrong, let me know, but certainly here in Ohio there are about 200 schools with competing marching bands and many more schools without. But if "our competitive activity" refers specifically to the competing subset of bands, then I withdraw my comment.
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5659lt
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by 5659lt on Nov 1, 2022 22:52:30 GMT -6
I know y'all don’t want to hear me laud my home state, but there is a benefit to having (1) a football culture that lifts all related activities and (2) a statewide organizing body that is tied to the government and the education agency which sanctions all events and links their fates together such that the very clear incentive (if not mandate) is to compete. It’s created an unmatched depth in the state and a storied marching band culture that stretches from the Red River to the Rio Grande and the Palo Duro Canyon to the Gulf Coast. It just means more. It means more when losing to Avon, BA, and Carmel!
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 2, 2022 5:15:20 GMT -6
I know y'all don’t want to hear me laud my home state, but there is a benefit to having (1) a football culture that lifts all related activities and (2) a statewide organizing body that is tied to the government and the education agency which sanctions all events and links their fates together such that the very clear incentive (if not mandate) is to compete. It’s created an unmatched depth in the state and a storied marching band culture that stretches from the Red River to the Rio Grande and the Palo Duro Canyon to the Gulf Coast. It just means more. Texas absolutely does this right.
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Post by paddy on Nov 2, 2022 6:29:06 GMT -6
I know y'all don’t want to hear me laud my home state, but there is a benefit to having (1) a football culture that lifts all related activities and (2) a statewide organizing body that is tied to the government and the education agency which sanctions all events and links their fates together such that the very clear incentive (if not mandate) is to compete. It’s created an unmatched depth in the state and a storied marching band culture that stretches from the Red River to the Rio Grande and the Palo Duro Canyon to the Gulf Coast. It just means more. What percentage of bands participate in the full UIL competitive marching band cycle?
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Post by principalagent on Nov 2, 2022 7:11:21 GMT -6
I know y'all don’t want to hear me laud my home state, but there is a benefit to having (1) a football culture that lifts all related activities and (2) a statewide organizing body that is tied to the government and the education agency which sanctions all events and links their fates together such that the very clear incentive (if not mandate) is to compete. It’s created an unmatched depth in the state and a storied marching band culture that stretches from the Red River to the Rio Grande and the Palo Duro Canyon to the Gulf Coast. It just means more. What percentage of bands participate in the full UIL competitive marching band cycle? I’d estimate that virtually all non-magnet schools with over 400 students have a band program in the state (and some magnet programs, like Ann Richards, do as well). And perhaps 40-60% of schools with fewer than 400 students. It’s well over 90%, if not well over 95% of high schools with a marching band that participate in region. And that’s of all high schools with marching band—which includes military style, show bands, and corps-style from 100 person schools to 6800 person schools. If you include the military marching track, probably another 95+% who qualify advance to the next round after region (area, state for 1A bands, and military state) will go to the next round. I don’t think any band that qualifies to advance out of area would turn down a berth to state. So let’s just say 100% of bands go on. Thus you have an extremely strong participation rate. If you assume .95*.95*1 for the three rounds, then 90% of schools with a band compete. Even if you went more conservative and estimate .85*.90*.95, that’s still a strong 72.5% of bands. Would still account for at least 700-750 programs in the state that would go through the entire process if offered. And about 850ish that participate in the first round. (My numbers may be a bit off—I tried to mentally take out urban magnet schools that have a UIL classification but may not have sports or marching band and accommodate the number of 1A and 2A schools without bands).
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