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Post by philodemus on Nov 2, 2022 7:28:53 GMT -6
This has always struck me as the strangest and most infuriating aspect of our activity. Our competitive activity is frequently run by people who hate it... or worse, affect a 'hipster' disdain for it to prove how serious they are... or even worse than that, really love it, but are afraid to say so for fear of being judged unserious by their peers. Like, I'm pretty sure football coaches are unafraid of saying that they love football. When the coaches get together I'm sure no one feels the need to say, "Now of course, we only do this because the kids like it... I personally wish we could focus on the weightlifting instead of all this silliness with the ball and points... of course." It's like they all can't get over that time in college their studio teacher rolled their eyes at them having to go marching band rehearsal. Isn't that question begging? What is "our competitive activity"? Marching band as a whole? Even if we restrict that to high schools, then I think by number of schools, it's not a competitive activity. If I'm wrong, let me know, but certainly here in Ohio there are about 200 schools with competing marching bands and many more schools without. But if "our competitive activity" refers specifically to the competing subset of bands, then I withdraw my comment. I actually would be curious what the overall percentages are, nation-wide, of competitive vs. non-competitive. In Kentucky, though we have been losing ground, I would dare say the majority of high schools do compete. I don't have numbers, I'm literally just going through a map of the counties in my head and ticking them off... and yeah, I'm pretty sure non-competitive is the exception for us. You generally find non-competitive bands in the most economically disadvantaged part of our state, but even lower-middle-income communities are usually at contests with us on Saturday. But, my point above really was specific to competitive marching bands and their circuits being run by people who hate competitive marching band... and in many cases all marching band. There's a real contempt for it among a certain sort of Very Serious Musician, and there's lots of others who seem to have been pressured by the Very Serious Musicians into feeling like they can't admit to liking it and still be taken seriously. Boggles my mind. I guess another question entirely would be, "Is competitive marching band better than non-competitive?" On another thread someone said, "all band is good band" and I would agree, as far as it goes... and further, I would be willing to admit that there might be individual situations in which competition just doesn't make sense and so it's good to give the kids some sort of experience rather than none. But... and I know this might be a controversial position to take... I would argue that as a general principle, the competitive activity is a much, much better experience for the performers than non-competitive and that barring any unusual circumstance, bands should compete. I don't think we should be shy about proselytizing for the power of this activity, about how wonderful of an experience it can be for kids. I don't think we should be shy about saying that a non-competitive band might be fun, but a competitive program can be life-changing. This thing is awesome, and kids should get to do it wherever possible... not just wherever convenient. |
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Post by paddy on Nov 2, 2022 7:35:24 GMT -6
What percentage of bands participate in the full UIL competitive marching band cycle? I’d estimate that virtually all non-magnet schools with over 400 students have a band program in the state (and some magnet programs, like Ann Richards, do as well). And perhaps 40-60% of schools with fewer than 400 students. It’s well over 90%, if not well over 95% of high schools with a marching band that participate in region. And that’s of all high schools with marching band—which includes military style, show bands, and corps-style from 100 person schools to 6800 person schools. If you include the military marching track, probably another 95+% who qualify advance to the next round after region (area, state for 1A bands, and military state) will go to the next round. I don’t think any band that qualifies to advance out of area would turn down a berth to state. So let’s just say 100% of bands go on. Thus you have an extremely strong participation rate. If you assume .95*.95*1 for the three rounds, then 90% of schools with a band compete. Even if you went more conservative and estimate .85*.90*.95, that’s still a strong 72.5% of bands. Would still account for at least 700-750 programs in the state that would go through the entire process if offered. And about 850ish that participate in the first round. (My numbers may be a bit off—I tried to mentally take out urban magnet schools that have a UIL classification but may not have sports or marching band and accommodate the number of 1A and 2A schools without bands). Thanks. So if I am reading this right, 750 bands participate out of 3000ish high schools. |
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Post by oldarmybandguy on Nov 2, 2022 7:52:53 GMT -6
The Texas participation rate is a good thing, IMO. Here's the thing-my high school marching band saw it's most successful years after I graduated, but the drive and determination to be better was a net positive for everyone that participated. The unsaid secret is, there's a large portion of kids in band, specifically, that would not normally participate in sports. I was one of them-I was uncoordinated and slow as a teenager and played little league for 1 season and that was it. Marching Band not only provided me a community of friends with similar interests, but it taught me about competition. I was a piece of the puzzle that helped my band get better and there was motivation to be better. Keeping it easy and competition free robs kids who might not otherwise experience it is a mis-step by an educator.
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Post by principalagent on Nov 2, 2022 8:19:33 GMT -6
I’d estimate that virtually all non-magnet schools with over 400 students have a band program in the state (and some magnet programs, like Ann Richards, do as well). And perhaps 40-60% of schools with fewer than 400 students. It’s well over 90%, if not well over 95% of high schools with a marching band that participate in region. And that’s of all high schools with marching band—which includes military style, show bands, and corps-style from 100 person schools to 6800 person schools. If you include the military marching track, probably another 95+% who qualify advance to the next round after region (area, state for 1A bands, and military state) will go to the next round. I don’t think any band that qualifies to advance out of area would turn down a berth to state. So let’s just say 100% of bands go on. Thus you have an extremely strong participation rate. If you assume .95*.95*1 for the three rounds, then 90% of schools with a band compete. Even if you went more conservative and estimate .85*.90*.95, that’s still a strong 72.5% of bands. Would still account for at least 700-750 programs in the state that would go through the entire process if offered. And about 850ish that participate in the first round. (My numbers may be a bit off—I tried to mentally take out urban magnet schools that have a UIL classification but may not have sports or marching band and accommodate the number of 1A and 2A schools without bands). Thanks. So if I am reading this right, 750 bands participate out of 3000ish high schools. Why did I know this was bait. And I took it. I should know better by now. Anyway. Since we want more accurate numbers. UIL accommodated 1,387 schools in its realignments. I’m well aware that ~*the Internet*~ says there are about 2800 public schools in Texas. I’m dubious of that, but even so, that number counts alternative and magnet and charter schools that for one reason or another don’t participate in UIL. So for SANCTIONED participants in extracurricular activities, we’re dealing with a deck of 1400. Of that 1400, there are still small schools that don’t participate in band and magnet schools, as I mentioned. UIL registers 1068 schools as participating in region. So we’re already hitting higher than my numeric estimate of bands that participate in the initial round. Virtually all schools above 1050 students (5A and 6A) do the first round. UIL says there are 1002 such schools and UILForms has 998 entries. About 180 of 215 4A schools (tons of magnets in this category), 200 of 233 3A, and 150 of 220 2A schools. And finally about 30 mighty 1As, where no school has more than 105 students. So overall 75% of schools that are sanctioned for extracurricular participation go to region. And that’s without taking into account schools that don’t have band at all. If I did account for them, then the percentage would likely jump, as I estimated, to at least 90%. |
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Post by paddy on Nov 2, 2022 8:42:41 GMT -6
Thanks. So if I am reading this right, 750 bands participate out of 3000ish high schools. Why did I know this was bait. And I took it. I should know better by now. Anyway. Since we want more accurate numbers. UIL accommodated 1,387 schools in its realignments. I’m well aware that ~*the Internet*~ says there are about 2800 public schools in Texas. I’m dubious of that, but even so, that number counts alternative and magnet and charter schools that for one reason or another don’t participate in UIL. So for SANCTIONED participants in extracurricular activities, we’re dealing with a deck of 1400. Of that 1400, there are still small schools that don’t participate in band and magnet schools, as I mentioned. UIL registers 1068 schools as participating in region. So we’re already hitting higher than my numeric estimate of bands that participate in the initial round. Virtually all schools above 1050 students (5A and 6A) do the first round. UIL says there are 1002 such schools and UILForms has 998 entries. About 180 of 215 4A schools (tons of magnets in this category), 200 of 233 3A, and 150 of 220 2A schools. And finally about 30 mighty 1As, where no school has more than 105 students. So overall 75% of schools that are sanctioned for extracurricular participation go to region. And that’s without taking into account schools that don’t have band at all. If I did account for them, then the percentage would likely jump, as I estimated, to at least 90%. No bait at all. I am legitimately curious. I can't compare to what I know unless I understand what you know. |
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Post by principalagent on Nov 2, 2022 9:13:34 GMT -6
No bait at all. I am legitimately curious. I can't compare to what I know unless I understand what you know. My apologies for the poor assumption. I went and double checked the Texas Education Agency’s school finder and it registered about 2100 schools with a grade 12. 325 of those schools are Charters or online schools. Another 315 or so are designated alternative schools. So it seems about 1400 schools is still pretty accurate. So 75% at bare minimum participate without making other (reasonable, in my view) cuts and concessions to the list. |
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Post by paddy on Nov 2, 2022 9:20:25 GMT -6
No bait at all. I am legitimately curious. I can't compare to what I know unless I understand what you know. My apologies for the poor assumption. I went and double checked the Texas Education Agency’s school finder and it registered about 2100 schools with a grade 12. 325 of those schools are Charters or online schools. Another 315 or so are designated alternative schools. So it seems about 1400 schools is still pretty accurate. So 75% at bare minimum participate without making other (reasonable, in my view) cuts and concessions to the list. No worries at all. I find data like this interesting. |
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rbrbds
Junior Member
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Post by rbrbds on Nov 4, 2022 7:50:08 GMT -6
Some data for South Carolina bands. SC has had an organized state marching band competition with data dating as far back as 1959 (https://www.bandlink.org/marching/scbda-marching-champions/). In 2022 there are 197 traditional high schools across the state. At this years state marching band championships 127 of those 197 schools participated. The athletic conference and the band classifications do not line up with each other. For example, the 5A athletic conference has 36 schools, while the 5A band only has 24. Based on the athletic conference, state marching band participation was as follows:
10 of 38 1A schools participated
22 of 38 2A schools participated
31 of 45 3A schools participated
32 of 40 4A schools participated
32 of 36 5A schools participated
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Post by hawknate14 on Feb 1, 2023 11:59:38 GMT -6
Here in VA we have 1 event that claims to be a state championship(VMBC Championships), and another event that could claim if they wanted too (the JMU Parade of Champions). They both have their benifits and drawbacks
VMBC
pros
-Uses the scoring sheet used at most Large VA comps
- is run by the closest thing VA has to a state governing body
-Results are easily found online after the fact
Cons
-The location is a 5+ hour drive for most of VA's top bands, more of a hurdle for bands with smaller travel budgets.
-The location at Liberty University has made some people uncomfortable due to the University's reputation, beliefs and scandals.
JMU
Pros
- Better Location for NOVA bands
- More bands attend
- Location is a lot less controversial
Cons
-It always seems to share a weekend with a nearbyish BOA event, so we haven't seen Madison or TJHSST in several years.
- The scoring sheet is different from other VA comps.
-Results are often hard or impossible to find.
Personally, I prefer JMU because my band actually goes to that one, but both events have their reasons for existing.
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bran
Full Member
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Post by bran on Feb 1, 2023 12:59:04 GMT -6
Here in VA we have 1 event that claims to be a state championship(VMBC Championships), and another event that could claim if they wanted too (the JMU Parade of Champions). They both have their benifits and drawbacks VMBC pros -Uses the scoring sheet used at most Large VA comps - is run by the closest thing VA has to a state governing body -Results are easily found online after the fact Cons -The location is a 5+ hour drive for most of VA's top bands, more of a hurdle for bands with smaller travel budgets. -The location at Liberty University has made some people uncomfortable due to the University's reputation, beliefs and scandals. JMU Pros - Better Location for NOVA bands - More bands attend - Location is a lot less controversial Cons -It always seems to share a weekend with a nearbyish BOA event, so we haven't seen Madison or TJHSST in several years. - The scoring sheet is different from other VA comps. -Results are often hard or impossible to find. Personally, I prefer JMU because my band actually goes to that one, but both events have their reasons for existing. The VMBC State Championships are considered the state championships over JMU PoC because it’s the statewide circuit that also holds smaller, regional competitions alongside the big state championships at the end of the season. I’ll also add that while JMU is closer for top bands like Madison, Independence and TJHSST, Liberty is significantly closer for bands like Bassett and Jefferson Forest. As a Madison alum, JMU PoC feels a lot closer to a regional competition than a state championship, since it draws bands from one area (NoVA) and takes place earlier in the season. |
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Post by hawknate14 on Feb 1, 2023 14:16:52 GMT -6
Here in VA we have 1 event that claims to be a state championship(VMBC Championships), and another event that could claim if they wanted too (the JMU Parade of Champions). They both have their benifits and drawbacks VMBC pros -Uses the scoring sheet used at most Large VA comps - is run by the closest thing VA has to a state governing body -Results are easily found online after the fact Cons -The location is a 5+ hour drive for most of VA's top bands, more of a hurdle for bands with smaller travel budgets. -The location at Liberty University has made some people uncomfortable due to the University's reputation, beliefs and scandals. JMU Pros - Better Location for NOVA bands - More bands attend - Location is a lot less controversial Cons -It always seems to share a weekend with a nearbyish BOA event, so we haven't seen Madison or TJHSST in several years. - The scoring sheet is different from other VA comps. -Results are often hard or impossible to find. Personally, I prefer JMU because my band actually goes to that one, but both events have their reasons for existing. The VMBC State Championships are considered the state championships over JMU PoC because it’s the statewide circuit that also holds smaller, regional competitions alongside the big state championships at the end of the season. I’ll also add that while JMU is closer for top bands like Madison, Independence and TJHSST, Liberty is significantly closer for bands like Bassett and Jefferson Forest. As a Madison alum, JMU PoC feels a lot closer to a regional competition than a state championship, since it draws bands from one area (NoVA) and takes place earlier in the season. I included JMU Mainly because in the Pre-VMBC days, it was viewed as a de facto state championship, VMBC is the rightful championship today, and I should have mentioned that JMU really only has a claim pre-2018. Still hate the location, because JMU is actually closer to Bassett and Jefferson Forest than Liberty is to basically any NOVA band, |
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bran
Full Member
Posts: 31
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Post by bran on Feb 1, 2023 14:55:30 GMT -6
The VMBC State Championships are considered the state championships over JMU PoC because it’s the statewide circuit that also holds smaller, regional competitions alongside the big state championships at the end of the season. I’ll also add that while JMU is closer for top bands like Madison, Independence and TJHSST, Liberty is significantly closer for bands like Bassett and Jefferson Forest. As a Madison alum, JMU PoC feels a lot closer to a regional competition than a state championship, since it draws bands from one area (NoVA) and takes place earlier in the season. I included JMU Mainly because in the Pre-VMBC days, it was viewed as a de facto state championship, VMBC is the rightful championship today, and I should have mentioned that JMU really only has a claim pre-2018. Still hate the location, because JMU is actually closer to Bassett and Jefferson Forest than Liberty is to basically any NOVA band, Even though I also hate the location they chose and wish they had decided on a location more up north, from a non-NoVA bias perspective, Liberty is probably one of the better options, since it's relatively centralized and not completely isolated from everyone. Still, I think we need to be more empathetic to the bands in the Virginia Beach area, since any good location chosen is still terrible for them. |
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Post by hawknate14 on Feb 1, 2023 15:13:43 GMT -6
I included JMU Mainly because in the Pre-VMBC days, it was viewed as a de facto state championship, VMBC is the rightful championship today, and I should have mentioned that JMU really only has a claim pre-2018. Still hate the location, because JMU is actually closer to Bassett and Jefferson Forest than Liberty is to basically any NOVA band, Even though I also hate the location they chose and wish they had decided on a location more up north, from a non-NoVA bias perspective, Liberty is probably one of the better options, since it's relatively centralized and not completely isolated from everyone. Still, I think we need to be more empathetic to the bands in the Virginia Beach area, since any good location chosen is still terrible for them. Yeah Virginia Beach Area bands will always have a hard time, the best location would be richmond(about 2 hours from NOVA, VA Beach, and Jefferson Forest), but thats not great for Bassett(3.5-4 hours),would likely have more logistical issues with facilities, and im not sure the willingness for Richmond or Virginia Union to allow usage. |
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bran
Full Member
Posts: 31
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Post by bran on Feb 1, 2023 15:47:01 GMT -6
Even though I also hate the location they chose and wish they had decided on a location more up north, from a non-NoVA bias perspective, Liberty is probably one of the better options, since it's relatively centralized and not completely isolated from everyone. Still, I think we need to be more empathetic to the bands in the Virginia Beach area, since any good location chosen is still terrible for them. Yeah Virginia Beach Area bands will always have a hard time, the best location would be richmond(about 2 hours from NOVA, VA Beach, and Jefferson Forest), but thats not great for Bassett(3.5-4 hours),would likely have more logistical issues with facilities, and im not sure the willingness for Richmond or Virginia Union to allow usage. Another thing about logistics with facilities is that outside of JMU and Liberty, none of the other Virginia colleges and universities have that big of a thing for marching band, and thus would probably not want to host a marching band state championships, because they wouldn't have the experience of hosting marching bands, as well as not have a very good marching band of their own for exhibition. |
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