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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 6, 2022 21:08:49 GMT -6
This, as you could imagine, has been a question of great interest in the Great Commonwealth of 1A… I mean, Kentucky. The rumor I have heard from the well-connected is that they are 6 kids over the line into 2A. I would look to potentially see them in Finals exhibition in 2023. Of course, I have also heard vague rumblings of some sort of reorganization of the Grand Nationals format in 2023? So, who knows. I heard 8 over to start the year, but are now under. My source is pretty good, but there is always room for “smoke”. It may depend on when the enrollment was certified to BOA… On the GN format front, there have been too many rumblings about a separate A/AA comp and then a AAA/AAAA comp for me not to believe something is changing. Considering this is how most (if not all) state contests are, I don’t see a problem with this. It makes sense, especially with how deep the field has become. More bands in “finals” makes perfect sense, particularly in the financial realm.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 7, 2022 7:08:44 GMT -6
On the GN format front, there have been too many rumblings about a separate A/AA comp and then a AAA/AAAA comp for me not to believe something is changing. So keeping the three day format currently in use, would we see a schedule of Thursday A/AA prelims, Friday AAA/AAAA prelims, Saturday afternoon A/AA finals, and Saturday night AAA/AAA finals? Or would it be two consecutive weekends set up like current Super Regionals?
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bandisjoy
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Post by bandisjoy on Nov 7, 2022 7:22:53 GMT -6
On the GN format front, there have been too many rumblings about a separate A/AA comp and then a AAA/AAAA comp for me not to believe something is changing. So keeping the three day format currently in use, would we see a schedule of Thursday A/AA prelims, Friday AAA/AAAA prelims, Saturday afternoon A/AA finals, and Saturday night AAA/AAA finals? Or would it be two consecutive weekends set up like current Super Regionals? I like your first proposal - and every other year alternates prelims days so no band is stuck with that day off in between every year.
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Post by Allohak on Nov 7, 2022 7:25:38 GMT -6
On the GN format front, there have been too many rumblings about a separate A/AA comp and then a AAA/AAAA comp for me not to believe something is changing. So keeping the three day format currently in use, would we see a schedule of Thursday A/AA prelims, Friday AAA/AAAA prelims, Saturday afternoon A/AA finals, and Saturday night AAA/AAA finals? Or would it be two consecutive weekends set up like current Super Regionals? Or, you know, neither 😉
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 7, 2022 7:48:32 GMT -6
So keeping the three day format currently in use, would we see a schedule of Thursday A/AA prelims, Friday AAA/AAAA prelims, Saturday afternoon A/AA finals, and Saturday night AAA/AAA finals? Or would it be two consecutive weekends set up like current Super Regionals? I like your first proposal - and every other year alternates prelims days so no band is stuck with that day off in between every year. In that scenario, we could almost guarantee alternate years for an influx of remote bands (especially Texas) when the AAA/AAAA prelims are on Friday.
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Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 7, 2022 8:47:41 GMT -6
Yeah, my personal feelings, as someone who marched in a 2A band, are that a final that separates by class is not something I will ever be for. I get the frustrations of many about underrepresentation, however a separate finals would deprive the members of bands in the smaller classes of performing on Marching Band's largest stage.
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bandisjoy
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Post by bandisjoy on Nov 7, 2022 9:02:58 GMT -6
Yeah, my personal feelings, as someone who marched in a 2A band, are that a final that separates by class is not something I will ever be for. I get the frustrations of many about underrepresentation, however a separate finals would deprive the members of bands in the smaller classes of performing on Marching Band's largest stage. I would think the system should allow any A/AA band who requested so to "play up" and join the AAA/AAAA ranks for competition sake.
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Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 7, 2022 9:07:38 GMT -6
Yeah, my personal feelings, as someone who marched in a 2A band, are that a final that separates by class is not something I will ever be for. I get the frustrations of many about underrepresentation, however a separate finals would deprive the members of bands in the smaller classes of performing on Marching Band's largest stage. I would think the system should allow any A/AA band who requested so to "play up" and join the AAA/AAAA ranks for competition sake. That's when you run into the problem of MFA not wanting to give off the perception that the bigger classes are "better".
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Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 9:15:30 GMT -6
I would think the system should allow any A/AA band who requested so to "play up" and join the AAA/AAAA ranks for competition sake. That's when you run into the problem of MFA not wanting to give off the perception that the bigger classes are "better". I've heard that there would be more opportunity to get A/AA bands into finals.
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bandisjoy
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Post by bandisjoy on Nov 7, 2022 9:26:15 GMT -6
I would think the system should allow any A/AA band who requested so to "play up" and join the AAA/AAAA ranks for competition sake. That's when you run into the problem of MFA not wanting to give off the perception that the bigger classes are "better". Perception? In the last five years (four GNs), of the 48 finalists 81% were 4A, 15% were 3A, 4% were 2A (two bands - TS once & MC once) and 0% were 1A. There is no other way to perceive it than fact - AAA/AAAA IS better and dominates the field.
More data: Semis? 146 bands: 4A-60%, 3A-16%, 2A-14%, 1A-11% Prelims? 398 bands: 4A-28%, 3A-17%, 2A-30%, 1A-25%
The majority of bands entered are 1A & 2A at 55%, but comprise 4% of finalists.
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Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 7, 2022 9:31:10 GMT -6
That's when you run into the problem of MFA not wanting to give off the perception that the bigger classes are "better". I've heard that there would be more opportunity to get A/AA bands into finals. But if there's 3000 people in the stands for their finals that's a wildly different environment than Saturday Night at GN.
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Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 9:35:01 GMT -6
I've heard that there would be more opportunity to get A/AA bands into finals. But if there's 3000 people in the stands for their finals that's a wildly different environment than Saturday Night at GN. No, get more A/AA bands into Saturday Night Finals. Right now the reward for a number of A/AA bands is to perform in semi-finals at 6 AM in front of 300 people. All this is 6th hand rumblings and whispers among people I am tangentially and loosely connected to. There may not be any real legs to it, just sharing what I have heard.
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Post by Shroom on Nov 7, 2022 9:56:52 GMT -6
I would think the system should allow any A/AA band who requested so to "play up" and join the AAA/AAAA ranks for competition sake. That's when you run into the problem of MFA not wanting to give off the perception that the bigger classes are "better". An amazing way to combat this and that would 100% combat this problem is to let AAA/AAAA bands "play down" so if Carmel doesn't feel like they'll get top 3 one year they can go down to A/AA finals and sweep with absolutely no competition.
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 7, 2022 9:57:29 GMT -6
That's when you run into the problem of MFA not wanting to give off the perception that the bigger classes are "better". Perception? In the last five years (four GNs), of the 48 finalists 81% were 4A, 15% were 3A, 4% were 2A (two bands - TS once & MC once) and 0% were 1A. There is no other way to perceive it than fact - AAA/AAAA IS better and dominates the field.
More data: Semis? 146 bands: 4A-60%, 3A-16%, 2A-14%, 1A-11% Prelims? 398 bands: 4A-28%, 3A-17%, 2A-30%, 1A-25%
The majority of bands entered are 1A & 2A at 55%, but comprise 4% of finalists.
No class A band has made finals since 2000. No class AA school other than Tarpon and Marian have ever made finals since the current four class system was adopted, and it’s been awhile since anyone was even remotely close.
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Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 9:59:48 GMT -6
Perception? In the last five years (four GNs), of the 48 finalists 81% were 4A, 15% were 3A, 4% were 2A (two bands - TS once & MC once) and 0% were 1A. There is no other way to perceive it than fact - AAA/AAAA IS better and dominates the field.
More data: Semis? 146 bands: 4A-60%, 3A-16%, 2A-14%, 1A-11% Prelims? 398 bands: 4A-28%, 3A-17%, 2A-30%, 1A-25%
The majority of bands entered are 1A & 2A at 55%, but comprise 4% of finalists.
No class A band has made finals since 2000. No class AA school other than Tarpon and Marian have ever made finals since the current four class system was adopted, and it’s been awhile since anyone was even remotely close. They clearly should just be better. To deny them the remote chance of ever making finals would be mean to them.
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Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 7, 2022 10:01:05 GMT -6
That's when you run into the problem of MFA not wanting to give off the perception that the bigger classes are "better". An amazing way to combat this and that would 100% combat this problem is to let AAA/AAAA bands "play down" so if Carmel doesn't feel like they'll get top 3 one year they can go down to A/AA finals and sweep with absolutely no competition. That is how you get A/AA bands to decide not to come back.
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riot
Senior Member
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Post by riot on Nov 7, 2022 10:24:45 GMT -6
This is based off some discussion about A/AA bands in Grand Nationals, but I didn't want to possibly take that thread further off the rails. If I took the top 50 performers from a AAAA class band (Broken Arrow, Carmel, Hebron, etc.) and had them compete as an A class band, would they be able to compete with other AAAA/AAA class bands (Fishers, Bobyns-Bennet, William Mason, etc)? If not, why not? The only two reason I could think of would be: 1. They couldn't physically fill the field so visual performance would take a hit and therefore a possible general effect hit, as well. 2. They wouldn't be able to play as loud as a larger marching band. I get visual performance scoring lower, but is playing louder a large influence on music performance?
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 7, 2022 10:26:16 GMT -6
The Tarpon debate returns! I was in one of those AA bands that performed in semifinals at godawful hours of the morning. I can tell you that we didn't really care how big the crowd was or how early we were awake...we were just excited to be in semifinals! Maybe it's different for instrumentalists, but I always went into autopilot mode and paid no attention to the audience. Perhaps we'll get a format change, and within 4 years those A/AA bands will be incredibly particular about all of those things. I'm sure that the well-established consistent semifinalists do care about it...but for the bands that don't attend GN often or don't make semifinals often, getting a second performance is reward enough. I'm all for the format change if it improves the model, but the model isn't anything horrible right now. That includes the Tarpon debate - it's fun to throw around ideas of what we could improve upon, but I don't really see a need to change the system we have. But there are people who have been doing this much longer than me who will be able to weigh in with much more experienced opinions on this.
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Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 10:31:15 GMT -6
GE is such a large part of the BOA scoring rubric and GE is easier to generate with more people on the field.
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Post by doublegeez on Nov 7, 2022 10:32:02 GMT -6
This is based off some discussion about A/AA bands in Grand Nationals, but I didn't want to possibly take that thread further off the rails. If I took the top 50 performers from a AAAA class band (Broken Arrow, Carmel, Hebron, etc.) and had them compete as an A class band, would they be able to compete with other AAAA/AAA class bands (Fishers, Bobyns-Bennet, William Mason, etc)? If not, why not? The only two reason I could think of would be: 1. They couldn't physically fill the field so visual performance would take a hit and therefore a possible general effect hit, as well. 2. They wouldn't be able to play as loud as a larger marching band. I get visual performance scoring lower, but is playing louder a large influence on music performance? Yeah In regards to the loud part
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bandisjoy
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Post by bandisjoy on Nov 7, 2022 10:34:58 GMT -6
My take is absolutely - with a caveat.
Absolutely because you're taking the most talented members of an already very talented pool. This talent should be able to accomplish whatever drill/music book you want to throw at them (obviously within some reason). The caveat is having a show designer that can recognize and design to the talent - and the ensemble size.
Greg Bimm. The caveat is Mr. Bimm - he must be the one.
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charredbrown
Senior Member
Morton Alum, currently teaching band at Lutheran North High School in MI
Posts: 87
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Post by charredbrown on Nov 7, 2022 10:41:15 GMT -6
The Tarpon debate returns! I was in one of those AA bands that performed in semifinals at godawful hours of the morning. I can tell you that we didn't really care how big the crowd was or how early we were awake...we were just excited to be in semifinals! Maybe it's different for instrumentalists, but I always went into autopilot mode and paid no attention to the audience. Perhaps we'll get a format change, and within 4 years those A/AA bands will be incredibly particular about all of those things. I'm sure that the well-established consistent semifinalists do care about it...but for the bands that don't attend GN often or don't make semifinals often, getting a second performance is reward enough. I'm all for the format change if it improves the model, but the model isn't anything horrible right now. That includes the Tarpon debate - it's fun to throw around ideas of what we could improve upon, but I don't really see a need to change the system we have. But there are people who have been doing this much longer than me who will be able to weigh in with much more experienced opinions on this. I agree with this wholeheartedly. I was also a AA band that performed in the wee hours of the morning, and none of us cared that the audience was so (relatively) small. My strongest memory from the experience was actually the night before when we were announced as semi-finalists - I was trying to text my parents the news but my hands were shaking from excitement! Not necessarily sure where I stand on the Tarpon debate, but I do think there's something to be said about being directly compared to a band that is so far above your level. The seniors when I was a freshman told stories of the Broken Arrow band kids cheering wildly for my little AA band at St Louis one year, and moments like this could be totally lost with what is essentially two separate Grand Nationals. I do agree with ilikeguard's sentiment, though: there are literally innumerable people more qualified than me who will ultimately make the decision. I'm just here to watch some awesome bands!
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 7, 2022 11:10:34 GMT -6
The Tarpon debate returns! I was in one of those AA bands that performed in semifinals at godawful hours of the morning. I can tell you that we didn't really care how big the crowd was or how early we were awake...we were just excited to be in semifinals! Maybe it's different for instrumentalists, but I always went into autopilot mode and paid no attention to the audience. Perhaps we'll get a format change, and within 4 years those A/AA bands will be incredibly particular about all of those things. I'm sure that the well-established consistent semifinalists do care about it...but for the bands that don't attend GN often or don't make semifinals often, getting a second performance is reward enough. I'm all for the format change if it improves the model, but the model isn't anything horrible right now. That includes the Tarpon debate - it's fun to throw around ideas of what we could improve upon, but I don't really see a need to change the system we have. But there are people who have been doing this much longer than me who will be able to weigh in with much more experienced opinions on this. I agree with this wholeheartedly. I was also a AA band that performed in the wee hours of the morning, and none of us cared that the audience was so (relatively) small. My strongest memory from the experience was actually the night before when we were announced as semi-finalists - I was trying to text my parents the news but my hands were shaking from excitement! Not necessarily sure where I stand on the Tarpon debate, but I do think there's something to be said about being directly compared to a band that is so far above your level. The seniors when I was a freshman told stories of the Broken Arrow band kids cheering wildly for my little AA band at St Louis one year, and moments like this could be totally lost with what is essentially two separate Grand Nationals. I do agree with ilikeguard's sentiment, though: there are literally innumerable people more qualified than me who will ultimately make the decision. I'm just here to watch some awesome bands! I only really worry about the arguments not stopping at Tarpon. Where do you draw the line of "too good for AA?" You and I were both members of AA bands that are on the upper end of achievement for their class. Do you only opt up bands that are finalist level? You can remove Tarpon from the competition, arguing that they'll always win, but what happens then when it's always Kiski winning? It's just not big enough of a deal for me to feel like it's absolutely necessary to reclassify one band that happens to be really good.
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Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 11:31:17 GMT -6
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I was also a AA band that performed in the wee hours of the morning, and none of us cared that the audience was so (relatively) small. My strongest memory from the experience was actually the night before when we were announced as semi-finalists - I was trying to text my parents the news but my hands were shaking from excitement! Not necessarily sure where I stand on the Tarpon debate, but I do think there's something to be said about being directly compared to a band that is so far above your level. The seniors when I was a freshman told stories of the Broken Arrow band kids cheering wildly for my little AA band at St Louis one year, and moments like this could be totally lost with what is essentially two separate Grand Nationals. I do agree with ilikeguard's sentiment, though: there are literally innumerable people more qualified than me who will ultimately make the decision. I'm just here to watch some awesome bands! I only really worry about the arguments not stopping at Tarpon. Where do you draw the line of "too good for AA?" You and I were both members of AA bands that are on the upper end of achievement for their class. Do you only opt up bands that are finalist level? You can remove Tarpon from the competition, arguing that they'll always win, but what happens then when it's always Kiski winning? It's just not big enough of a deal for me to feel like it's absolutely necessary to reclassify one band that happens to be really good. The conversation with Tarpon isn't about winning.
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Post by mtnxdrew on Nov 7, 2022 11:40:35 GMT -6
I only really worry about the arguments not stopping at Tarpon. Where do you draw the line of "too good for AA?" You and I were both members of AA bands that are on the upper end of achievement for their class. Do you only opt up bands that are finalist level? You can remove Tarpon from the competition, arguing that they'll always win, but what happens then when it's always Kiski winning? It's just not big enough of a deal for me to feel like it's absolutely necessary to reclassify one band that happens to be really good. The conversation with Tarpon isn't about winning. I don’t believe a band should be “forced” to move up a class just because they are dominate in their current class. As a supporter of a band that consistently places top 5 in AA, it’s tough the years Tarpon comes, but they fit within the AA guidelines, so that’s where they go. If THEY want to move up, that’s up to them. Just my opinion
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Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 11:44:46 GMT -6
The conversation with Tarpon isn't about winning. I don’t believe a band should be “forced” to move up a class just because they are dominate in their current class. As a supporter of a band that consistently places top 5 in AA, it’s tough the years Tarpon comes, but they fit within the AA guidelines, so that’s where they go. If THEY want to move up, that’s up to them. Just my opinion The conversation with Tarpon isn't about winning. I would argue that they don't fit within the AA guidelines.
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Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 7, 2022 11:46:50 GMT -6
I don’t believe a band should be “forced” to move up a class just because they are dominate in their current class. As a supporter of a band that consistently places top 5 in AA, it’s tough the years Tarpon comes, but they fit within the AA guidelines, so that’s where they go. If THEY want to move up, that’s up to them. Just my opinion The conversation with Tarpon isn't about winning. I would argue that they don't fit within the AA guidelines. Oh, do you want to only count the students in the Magnet for the school numbers?
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Post by mtnxdrew on Nov 7, 2022 11:48:57 GMT -6
I don’t believe a band should be “forced” to move up a class just because they are dominate in their current class. As a supporter of a band that consistently places top 5 in AA, it’s tough the years Tarpon comes, but they fit within the AA guidelines, so that’s where they go. If THEY want to move up, that’s up to them. Just my opinion The conversation with Tarpon isn't about winning. I would argue that they don't fit within the AA guidelines. I don’t know the details, but somehow they fit within the AA guidelines. Would I love for them to move up to AAA? Of course.
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Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 11:49:48 GMT -6
The conversation with Tarpon isn't about winning. I would argue that they don't fit within the AA guidelines. Oh, do you want to only count the students in the Magnet for the school numbers? If you have the ability to cast a net over 24k students and hold the equivalent of auditions to build a group...
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Post by BandHomer on Nov 7, 2022 11:55:57 GMT -6
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I was also a AA band that performed in the wee hours of the morning, and none of us cared that the audience was so (relatively) small. My strongest memory from the experience was actually the night before when we were announced as semi-finalists - I was trying to text my parents the news but my hands were shaking from excitement! Not necessarily sure where I stand on the Tarpon debate, but I do think there's something to be said about being directly compared to a band that is so far above your level. The seniors when I was a freshman told stories of the Broken Arrow band kids cheering wildly for my little AA band at St Louis one year, and moments like this could be totally lost with what is essentially two separate Grand Nationals. I do agree with ilikeguard's sentiment, though: there are literally innumerable people more qualified than me who will ultimately make the decision. I'm just here to watch some awesome bands! I only really worry about the arguments not stopping at Tarpon. Where do you draw the line of "too good for AA?" You and I were both members of AA bands that are on the upper end of achievement for their class. Do you only opt up bands that are finalist level? You can remove Tarpon from the competition, arguing that they'll always win, but what happens then when it's always Kiski winning? It's just not big enough of a deal for me to feel like it's absolutely necessary to reclassify one band that happens to be really good. I think it's less about "too good for AA" and more about "is Tarpon REALLY an AA school?". The school within a school idea is unique to them, I believe. I don't have a strong opinion on it myself outside of the fact that a performing arts magnet school will have a much different pool of talent to pull from than a community AA school. Take the performing arts department from the largest 4A schools and you'll probably have an AA school sized group at best.
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