|
Post by verysaxy on Nov 7, 2022 11:56:40 GMT -6
Should we maybe move some of this conversation to a seperate thread of its own? I don’t see the reason it should over shadow the GN conversation two days before the event starts… just a thought
|
|
|
Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 11:59:25 GMT -6
Should we maybe move some of this conversation to a seperate thread of its own? I don’t see the reason it should over shadow the GN conversation two days before the event starts… just a thought Nearly time to start a focused GN prelims thread...
|
|
|
Post by philodemus on Nov 7, 2022 12:00:37 GMT -6
On the A/AA separate from AAA/AAAA idea... One issue that we marching arts enthusiasts may not immediately think of, but I guarantee band directors and school administrators do think about, is missing another day of school. Right now, you might go on on Thursday and be waiting around till Saturday. If something like this proposal passes, you definitely will be out two or more days.
It's another night in an expensive hotel and another day of the students missing instruction.
A lot of even the very best A/AA bands are running on shoestring budgets, this sort of thing will matter to them.
And some of the larger bands in A/AA comprise significant chunks of their overall student body. If Murray goes [percentage wise they're the best example, I think] then something like 1/5th of their school is in Indianapolis... they might as well shut down for the day. No learning will be occurring!
On the other hand, I have gotten to the Oil Can at 6 AM to root for the Class A homies... and damn, it is depressingly quiet and empty in there. A true finals event in the mid-day/afternoon could not help but be an improvement. Furthermore, if you separate out the classes for the preliminary rounds, then the judging for everyone is likely to improve. I have often thought one of the strangest aspects of BOA judging was that everything was just all jumbled up and no one was supposed to know who was in what class. How in the world is that supposed to improve accuracy of outcomes?
So, I don't know. Good sides and bad sides.
|
|
|
Post by marimba11 on Nov 7, 2022 12:03:23 GMT -6
Should we maybe move some of this conversation to a seperate thread of its own? I don’t see the reason it should over shadow the GN conversation two days before the event starts… just a thought Nearly time to start a focused GN prelims thread... Agreed lol. I’m staying out that convo
|
|
|
Post by srv1084 on Nov 7, 2022 12:04:24 GMT -6
I've always been interested in the concept of a pre-GN finals "small school" championship. I don't know how they could solve for it given some schools could reasonably stand a chance at Semis and Finals as a regular qualifier, but some form of small school championship replacing the class advancers in semi-finals seems like a neat idea to me. Of course, that doesn't solve for some occasions where the A or AA champion may advance to semis or finals, which kind of breaks the concept of a separate small school finals if the real winner isn't in that field. I suppose those schools advancing to finals could choose to forego a class championship to perform in GN Finals? Just some ramblings...
|
|
|
Post by ilikeguard on Nov 7, 2022 12:14:22 GMT -6
I only really worry about the arguments not stopping at Tarpon. Where do you draw the line of "too good for AA?" You and I were both members of AA bands that are on the upper end of achievement for their class. Do you only opt up bands that are finalist level? You can remove Tarpon from the competition, arguing that they'll always win, but what happens then when it's always Kiski winning? It's just not big enough of a deal for me to feel like it's absolutely necessary to reclassify one band that happens to be really good. I think it's less about "too good for AA" and more about "is Tarpon REALLY an AA school?". The school within a school idea is unique to them, I believe. I don't have a strong opinion on it myself outside of the fact that a performing arts magnet school will have a much different pool of talent to pull from than a community AA school. Take the performing arts department from the largest 4A schools and you'll probably have an AA school sized group at best. Right. I'm not opposed to BOA choosing to classify them by the size of their school district. I can realistically see there being a rule introduced for magnet and private schools. And I suppose that one band is enough to change the rules...several random rules exist only because of one band. I guess I see both sides!
|
|
|
Post by ilikeguard on Nov 7, 2022 12:19:22 GMT -6
I've always been interested in the concept of a pre-GN finals "small school" championship. I don't know how they could solve for it given some schools could reasonably stand a chance at Semis and Finals as a regular qualifier, but some form of small school championship replacing the class advancers in semi-finals seems like a neat idea to me. Of course, that doesn't solve for some occasions where the A or AA champion may advance to semis or finals, which kind of breaks the concept of a separate small school finals if the real winner isn't in that field. I suppose those schools advancing to finals could choose to forego a class championship to perform in GN Finals? Just some ramblings... A small-school championship where small schools can choose to opt out/opt up to Big School Nationals isn't a terrible idea. I'm sure many bands would do GN anyways for the experience and atmosphere, but I'm certain that there are plenty of groups that would jump at the opportunity to place higher in their own contest with the BOA label on it.
|
|
|
Post by trumpette123 on Nov 7, 2022 12:37:29 GMT -6
I guess there is bias as I went to a big 3A/4A school, while GN is a competition for us on here and many of those bigger schools. It’s also about the exposure and experience. My school didn’t make finals my freshmen year but we were fortunate to be able to stay and watch finals. (I’m unsure how many schools get to do that.) But I really enjoyed it. WGI and DCI both have different class finals and I’m sure it is very possible for BOA. I’m curious how many directors of 1A/2A bands would want a separate event. While it might be cringe, my director always preached how important the experience was rather than our placement. How many students get to say “I performed at Lucas Oil Stadium while I was in high school?” Especially for schools that have 1/5th of their students in (Outside of Indiana students lol.)
|
|
|
Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 7, 2022 12:41:40 GMT -6
I only really worry about the arguments not stopping at Tarpon. Where do you draw the line of "too good for AA?" You and I were both members of AA bands that are on the upper end of achievement for their class. Do you only opt up bands that are finalist level? You can remove Tarpon from the competition, arguing that they'll always win, but what happens then when it's always Kiski winning? It's just not big enough of a deal for me to feel like it's absolutely necessary to reclassify one band that happens to be really good. I think it's less about "too good for AA" and more about "is Tarpon REALLY an AA school?". The school within a school idea is unique to them, I believe. I don't have a strong opinion on it myself outside of the fact that a performing arts magnet school will have a much different pool of talent to pull from than a community AA school. Take the performing arts department from the largest 4A schools and you'll probably have an AA school sized group at best. Of note, the 10-12 enrollment at the actual High School, all magnets and normal students included, is right about 875, so closer to A than AAA.
|
|
|
Post by trumpet300 on Nov 7, 2022 16:32:22 GMT -6
My 2 cents on the Tarpon thing is this. I understand that based on the numbers they count as enrollment place them in 2A, but when the school is known as an arts magnet school, there needs to be more consideration than just enrollment based numbers. If a school is basically a small conservatory, that is an obvious advantage over typical 2A schools and therefore should be considered.
Another point is that if Tarpon were to move to 3A...literally nothing would change for them. They would still be in finals...and would probably still win their class while simultaneously opening the door for 2A bands to win the class at least.
As for the point about what we consider "too good for 2A", I don't think it is outlandish to approach the classes like WGI where you can be promoted up a class. I think when a band consistently wins their class at Nationals by more than a 5 point margin every single year they go, that constitutes "too good for that class". The past few years Tarpon went...even with Marian there, they won by more than 5 points almost every single time.
|
|
|
Post by marimba11 on Nov 7, 2022 17:00:32 GMT -6
My 2 cents on the Tarpon thing is this. I understand that based on the numbers they count as enrollment place them in 2A, but when the school is known as an arts magnet school, there needs to be more consideration than just enrollment based numbers. If a school is basically a small conservatory, that is an obvious advantage over typical 2A schools and therefore should be considered. Another point is that if Tarpon were to move to 3A...literally nothing would change for them. They would still be in finals...and would probably still win their class while simultaneously opening the door for 2A bands to win the class at least. As for the point about what we consider "too good for 2A", I don't think it is outlandish to approach the classes like WGI where you can be promoted up a class. I think when a band consistently wins their class at Nationals by more than a 5 point margin every single year they go, that constitutes "too good for that class". The past few years Tarpon went...even with Marian there, they won by more than 5 points almost every single time. Why should we do any of this?? Why don't small bands learn something from Tarpon, Argyle, Pecos, Dartmouth... great bands that could easily make semis on score most likely in their current iterations. Honestly, small bands should be lucky that BOA lets them into semis based on the two representations per panel as it is. That goes for 4A, 3A, 2A too. I think dividing by school size is fair. It is part of the competitive atmosphere to recruit within your school, just like sports teams. But if it were up to me it would be the 30 highest scores (or 32, or 34 wherever you want to stop and divide by panel) PERIOD. This is a competition- not a race to divide bands based on anything. If you want to compete, be good and do your best.
|
|
|
Post by abtwitch on Nov 7, 2022 17:03:28 GMT -6
My 2 cents on the Tarpon thing is this. I understand that based on the numbers they count as enrollment place them in 2A, but when the school is known as an arts magnet school, there needs to be more consideration than just enrollment based numbers. If a school is basically a small conservatory, that is an obvious advantage over typical 2A schools and therefore should be considered. Another point is that if Tarpon were to move to 3A...literally nothing would change for them. They would still be in finals...and would probably still win their class while simultaneously opening the door for 2A bands to win the class at least. As for the point about what we consider "too good for 2A", I don't think it is outlandish to approach the classes like WGI where you can be promoted up a class. I think when a band consistently wins their class at Nationals by more than a 5 point margin every single year they go, that constitutes "too good for that class". The past few years Tarpon went...even with Marian there, they won by more than 5 points almost every single time. Why should we do any of this?? Why don't small bands learn something from Tarpon, Argyle, Pecos, Dartmouth... great bands that could easily make semis on score most likely in their current iterations. Honestly, small bands should be lucky that BOA lets them into semis based on the two representations per panel as it is. That goes for 4A, 3A, 2A too. I think dividing by school size is fair. It is part of the competitive atmosphere to recruit within your school, just like sports teams. But if it were up to me it would be the 30 highest scores (or 32, or 34 wherever you want to stop and divide by panel) PERIOD. This is a competition- not a race to divide bands based on anything. If you want to compete, be good and do your best. I'm a big fan of Pecos, but it's a massive stretch saying they could qualify for semis by score. They'd struggle to even be a Class rep on most years realistically.
|
|
|
Post by marimba11 on Nov 7, 2022 17:08:42 GMT -6
Why should we do any of this?? Why don't small bands learn something from Tarpon, Argyle, Pecos, Dartmouth... great bands that could easily make semis on score most likely in their current iterations. Honestly, small bands should be lucky that BOA lets them into semis based on the two representations per panel as it is. That goes for 4A, 3A, 2A too. I think dividing by school size is fair. It is part of the competitive atmosphere to recruit within your school, just like sports teams. But if it were up to me it would be the 30 highest scores (or 32, or 34 wherever you want to stop and divide by panel) PERIOD. This is a competition- not a race to divide bands based on anything. If you want to compete, be good and do your best. I'm a big fan of Pecos, but it's a massive stretch saying they could qualify for semis by score. They'd struggle to even be a Class rep on most years realistically. Fair enough but the point still stands
|
|
|
Post by philodemus on Nov 7, 2022 17:18:49 GMT -6
Why don't small bands learn something from Tarpon, Argyle, Pecos, Dartmouth... What, precisely, would you say is the lesson to be learned from Tarpon? “Become a magnet arts school for several other schools.” That doesn’t feel like an actionable takeaway. I’m a huge fan, but let’s be real here: their situation is pretty different from other schools their size.
|
|
|
Post by marimba11 on Nov 7, 2022 17:20:57 GMT -6
Why don't small bands learn something from Tarpon, Argyle, Pecos, Dartmouth... What, precisely, would you say is the lesson to be learned from Tarpon? “Become a magnet arts school for several other schools.” That doesn’t feel like an actionable takeaway. I’m a huge fan, but let’s be real here: their situation is pretty different from other schools their size. To my knowledge they were not a magnet school when they WON grand nationals in 2014.
|
|
|
Post by philodemus on Nov 7, 2022 17:24:35 GMT -6
What, precisely, would you say is the lesson to be learned from Tarpon? “Become a magnet arts school for several other schools.” That doesn’t feel like an actionable takeaway. I’m a huge fan, but let’s be real here: their situation is pretty different from other schools their size. To my knowledge they were not a magnet school when they WON grand nationals in 2014. Fair point, I actually don’t know when that occurred… if that’s correct, my objection is withdrawn.
|
|
|
Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 7, 2022 17:39:14 GMT -6
What, precisely, would you say is the lesson to be learned from Tarpon? “Become a magnet arts school for several other schools.” That doesn’t feel like an actionable takeaway. I’m a huge fan, but let’s be real here: their situation is pretty different from other schools their size. To my knowledge they were not a magnet school when they WON grand nationals in 2014. They were, however they'd been consistent GN Finalists and regional champions when it was established in 08.
Additionally the only reason it became a magnet was because the program had been consistently showing it could make a positive impact on the students in the arts that were zoned.
|
|
|
Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 17:41:56 GMT -6
What, precisely, would you say is the lesson to be learned from Tarpon? “Become a magnet arts school for several other schools.” That doesn’t feel like an actionable takeaway. I’m a huge fan, but let’s be real here: their situation is pretty different from other schools their size. To my knowledge they were not a magnet school when they WON grand nationals in 2014. Your knowledge is incorrect. As posted on the Tarpon Springs Band webpage, tarponspringsband.com/, it became a magnet school in 2008. Mr. Ford’s vision became a reality when the Conservatory was designated a magnet program in 2008. “The primary goal of the program is for each student to become more self-confident, to develop strong personal discipline, organizational and leadership skills, to succeed academically, and to learn to serve by helping others,” said Mr. Ford. By 2014, his seven-member band had expanded into a world-class, 300 member performing arts program.
|
|
|
Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 17:45:03 GMT -6
Why don't small bands learn something from Tarpon, Argyle, Pecos, Dartmouth... What, precisely, would you say is the lesson to be learned from Tarpon? “Become a magnet arts school for several other schools.” That doesn’t feel like an actionable takeaway. I’m a huge fan, but let’s be real here: their situation is pretty different from other schools their size. How about Leander ISD put together an AA magnet school for the performing arts and see how people react?
|
|
|
Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 7, 2022 17:46:05 GMT -6
What, precisely, would you say is the lesson to be learned from Tarpon? “Become a magnet arts school for several other schools.” That doesn’t feel like an actionable takeaway. I’m a huge fan, but let’s be real here: their situation is pretty different from other schools their size. How about Leander ISD put together an AA magnet school for then performing arts and see how people react? In fairness, there's a MUCH stronger institutional commitment to the arts in almost any Texan ISD vs in Pinellas County, FL.
|
|
|
Post by Shroom on Nov 7, 2022 17:47:32 GMT -6
I think for the most part the split between A/AA and AAA/AAAA is honestly just out of MFA's control and it's just going to be an unfortunate aspect of the activity (and basically any high school activity) that can't really be avoided. From what I can gather, most of the solutions offered seem like they'd just create an even stronger divide between smaller and larger classes by partitioning them off into different events.
Also too, I would assume the monetary burden that having separate events would put on BOA would be insane. There are typically way fewer A/AA bands that show to competition, and then even less people that come to watch them. Stadiums are expensive as hell, and I would doubt that MFA/BOA would bother with renting out LSO for the event given how insane costs would be, so I would imagine a lot of the "specialness" that Nats has for students would just be gone since theyd likely be performing at some random Indy college rather than LSO or something similar. I can't imagine how much money would have to go towards sustaining something like that when it could probably be put to better use at hosting competitions in regions that need it. I could imagine that opening another regional around the east coast or Appalachia where A/AA are more common would probably be a more sound investment rather than a separate finals.
I will admit though I think Nats themselves could probably use an update. Maybe increasing the mandatory class representation in semis and also increasing the overall amount of bands in semis could work? It'd definitely give more A/AA bands another chance to perform and potentially outplace AAA/AAAA bands, which is something I'd assume is harder to do in prelims when there are just so many bands placing close to each other.
|
|
|
Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 7, 2022 17:50:08 GMT -6
I think for the most part the split between A/AA and AAA/AAAA is honestly just out of MFA's control and it's just going to be an unfortunate aspect of the activity (and basically any high school activity) that can't really be avoided. From what I can gather, most of the solutions offered seem like they'd just create an even stronger divide between smaller and larger classes by partitioning them off into different events. Also too, I would assume the monetary burden that having separate events would put on BOA would be insane. There are typically way fewer A/AA bands that show to competition, and then even less people that come to watch them. Stadiums are expensive as hell, and I would doubt that MFA/BOA would bother with renting out LSO for the event given how insane costs would be, so I would imagine a lot of the "specialness" that Nats has for students would just be gone since theyd likely be performing at some random Indy college rather than LSO or something similar. I can't imagine how much money would have to go towards sustaining something like that when it could probably be put to better use at hosting competitions in regions that need it. I could imagine that opening another regional around the east coast or Appalachia where A/AA are more common would probably be a more sound investment rather than a separate finals. I will admit though I think Nats themselves could probably use an update. Maybe increasing the mandatory class representation in semis and also increasing the overall amount of bands in semis could work? It'd definitely give more A/AA bands another chance to perform and potentially outplace AAA/AAAA bands, which is something I'd assume is harder to do in prelims when there are just so many bands placing close to each other. Oh man, I like the thought but Saturday is already an insanely long day.
|
|
|
Post by marimba11 on Nov 7, 2022 17:50:22 GMT -6
To my knowledge they were not a magnet school when they WON grand nationals in 2014. Your knowledge is incorrect. As posted on the Tarpon Springs Band webpage, tarponspringsband.com/, it became a magnet school in 2008. Mr. Ford’s vision became a reality when the Conservatory was designated a magnet program in 2008. “The primary goal of the program is for each student to become more self-confident, to develop strong personal discipline, organizational and leadership skills, to succeed academically, and to learn to serve by helping others,” said Mr. Ford. By 2014, his seven-member band had expanded into a world-class, 300 member performing arts program. So what, his 100 member band (or so) made grand national finals and placed 4th in 1997 - till 08 not being a magnet school…
|
|
|
Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 7, 2022 17:51:51 GMT -6
Your knowledge is incorrect. As posted on the Tarpon Springs Band webpage, tarponspringsband.com/, it became a magnet school in 2008. Mr. Ford’s vision became a reality when the Conservatory was designated a magnet program in 2008. “The primary goal of the program is for each student to become more self-confident, to develop strong personal discipline, organizational and leadership skills, to succeed academically, and to learn to serve by helping others,” said Mr. Ford. By 2014, his seven-member band had expanded into a world-class, 300 member performing arts program. So what, his 100 member band (or so) made grand national finals and placed 4th in 1997 - till 08 not being a magnet school… Never missed finals at a BOA event they'd attended.
|
|
|
Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 17:52:18 GMT -6
How about Leander ISD put together an AA magnet school for then performing arts and see how people react? In fairness, there's a MUCH stronger institutional commitment to the arts in almost any Texan ISD vs in Pinellas County, FL. So? If it is ok for one school to pull from 24k students to create an elite marching band, it should be ok for any school.
|
|
|
Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 17:53:22 GMT -6
Your knowledge is incorrect. As posted on the Tarpon Springs Band webpage, tarponspringsband.com/, it became a magnet school in 2008. Mr. Ford’s vision became a reality when the Conservatory was designated a magnet program in 2008. “The primary goal of the program is for each student to become more self-confident, to develop strong personal discipline, organizational and leadership skills, to succeed academically, and to learn to serve by helping others,” said Mr. Ford. By 2014, his seven-member band had expanded into a world-class, 300 member performing arts program. So what, his 100 member band (or so) made grand national finals and placed 4th in 1997 - till 08 not being a magnet school… Ah yes. 1997 is super comparable to the last 14 years.
|
|
|
Post by marimba11 on Nov 7, 2022 17:54:24 GMT -6
So what, his 100 member band (or so) made grand national finals and placed 4th in 1997 - till 08 not being a magnet school… Ah yes. 1997 is super comparable to the last 14 years. And for 11 years after.
|
|
|
Post by trumpet300 on Nov 7, 2022 17:55:49 GMT -6
Your knowledge is incorrect. As posted on the Tarpon Springs Band webpage, tarponspringsband.com/, it became a magnet school in 2008. Mr. Ford’s vision became a reality when the Conservatory was designated a magnet program in 2008. “The primary goal of the program is for each student to become more self-confident, to develop strong personal discipline, organizational and leadership skills, to succeed academically, and to learn to serve by helping others,” said Mr. Ford. By 2014, his seven-member band had expanded into a world-class, 300 member performing arts program. So what, his 100 member band (or so) made grand national finals and placed 4th in 1997 - till 08 not being a magnet school… Which is great, but look at BOA now and how many more bands are involved. BOA has changed...there's more bands, more money being thrown around. It's 2022, not 2008. I'm not saying there aren't good 2A bands. There's a bunch. Jenison, Norwin, Kiski, Argyle, Catawba, Grain Valley just to name some....what do you want them to do? Become conservatories and pick from the best of the best like Tarpon? That is an utterly unrealistic and unreasonable expectation. Where as Tarpon getting bumped up into 3A isn't outlandish, would work just like WGI does with great success, and again...would not negatively affect Tarpon in any way.
|
|
|
Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 7, 2022 17:55:58 GMT -6
In fairness, there's a MUCH stronger institutional commitment to the arts in almost any Texan ISD vs in Pinellas County, FL. So? If it is ok for one school to pull from 24k students to create an elite marching band, it should be ok for any school. My perspective is that each school that sets themselves apart at BOA events has unique things that contribute to their success. Many Texan programs have a fantastic vertical alignment from beginning band in Middle School to the top wind ensemble at the high school, and Tarpon takes essentially every student that is interested in being a part of a program like theirs, even if they're not specifically zoned for that school. Both work well, even if they are different approaches.
|
|
|
Post by paddy on Nov 7, 2022 18:03:34 GMT -6
Most schools “unique thing” doesn’t allow them to pull from a talent pool 10x larger than the other members of their class…
|
|