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Post by Allohak on Nov 8, 2022 11:26:44 GMT -6
Two separate events, same weekend but different locations, each following 2-panel 2-day Super Regional format with the following tweaks to finals advancement. 15 band finals, top 2 from each class from each panel plus next from each class regardless of panel, plus next 5 regardless of class or panel. A/AA finals: Panel 1 A1 Panel 1 A2 Panel 1 AA1 Panel 1 AA2 Panel 2 A1 Panel 2 A2 Panel 2 AA1 Panel 2 AA2 Next Overall A Next Overall AA Next Overall Next Overall Next Overall Next Overall Next Overall AAA/AAAA finals: Panel 1 AAA1 Panel 1 AAA2 Panel 1 AAAA1 Panel 1 AAAA2 Panel 2 AAA1 Panel 2 AAA2 Panel 2 AAAA1 Panel 2 AAAA2 Next Overall AAA Next Overall AAAA Next Overall Next Overall Next Overall Next Overall Next Overall A/AA champion in year X treated as AAA in year X+1 (next time attending, no benefitting from taking a year off to avoid the bigger groups) and subsequent years if they make AAA/AAAA finals Gonna try this with 2021 and see what Semis would've been like... A/AA finals: Panel 1 A1 - Signal Mountain (TN) Panel 1 A2 - Archbishop Alter (OH) Panel 1 AA1 - Marian Catholic (IL) Panel 1 AA2 - Morton (IL) Panel 2 A1 - Murray (KY) Panel 2 A2 - Bourbon County (KY) Panel 2 AA1 - Norwin (PA) Panel 2 AA2 - Jenison (MI) Next Overall A - Estill County (KY) Next Overall AA - Miamisburg (OH) Next Overall - Lake Hamilton (AR) Next Overall - Greenfield Central (IN) Next Overall - Easley (SC) Next Overall - Anderson County (KY) Next Overall - Greendale (WI) AAA/AAAA finals: Panel 1 AAA1 - Dobyns-Bennett (TN) Panel 1 AAA2 - Blue Springs (MO) Panel 1 AAAA1 - Broken Arrow (OK) Panel 1 AAAA2 - Flower Mound (TX) Panel 2 AAA1 - Franklin (TN) Panel 2 AAA2 - Cleveland (NC) Panel 2 AAAA1 - Carmel (IN) Panel 2 AAAA2 - Avon (IN) Next Overall AAA - Castle (IN) Next Overall AAAA - The Woodlands (TX) Next Overall - Marcus (TX) Next Overall - Claudia Taylor Johnson (TX) Next Overall - Ronald Reagan (TX) Next Overall - Vista Ridge (TX) Next Overall - Wando (SC) My first reaction is that AAA/AAAA seems bare. While every finalist did make the cut, it's barely doing so which could be a problem on years where the cutoff for finals is tight. Wouldn't be opposed to making it top 1 from each class from each panel, next 2 each class overall, next 7 overall. 2021 Mason misses finals from prelims in the above example, but this adjustment drops Cleveland, replaces with Fishers and Mason still misses from 14th (their hot run was semis). But 15 of top 19 from 2021 prelims getting a second run
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Post by Allohak on Nov 8, 2022 11:28:24 GMT -6
I get why, but the two locations thing... I mean, we've had snow in Kentucky on the last weekend of October, and Nats is currently the second weekend of November. Unless you could A. Find another dome, or B. Have A/AA in Orlando or something... And let's be under no illusions as to who gets the dome and who is shivering. Now, suppose we A/AA into the new Titans dome in Nashville... that could work! Both events indoors...Johnson City
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Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 8, 2022 11:44:21 GMT -6
There was an idea floating around a couple years ago (maybe Daniel Montoya?) that involved being able to host A/AA and AAA/AAAA type events the same weekend without really changing a whole lot. I think it went something like this: Thursday All day starting at 8:00 am - A/AA Prelims Evening - A/AA Prelim awards, announce class awards and top 12 finalists (maybe top 4 in each class and next 4 overall?) Friday 8:00-6:00 or so - AAA/AAAA Prelims (there are fewer groups in those classes) 6:00 - AAA/AAAA Prelim awards, announce class awards and top 24 semifinalists (top 4 in each class and next 16 overall?) 8:00 - A/AA Finals, do the full retreat just like Saturday night, top 6 make semifinals as well Saturday 8:00 Semifinals begin (no more 6:15 bands) Top 24 AAA/AAAA go first since they had Friday night off, top 6 A/AA are the last 6 since they were on late Friday 5:00 Top 12 announced 8:00 Finals like always This system gives more A/AA groups a chance to play multiple times, eliminates the crack of dawn semifinals, and still allows for a group like Tarpon to make the big Saturday night show (they would actually perform 4 times). Using 2021 prelim scores, this is how everything would have shook out, which is a hypothetical since things would have been different with judging: Class A/AA Finalists Norwin (AA-1) Marian Catholic (AA-2) Jenison (AA-3) Murray (A-1) Miamisburg (AA-4) Lake Hamilton (Next 4) Morton (Next 4) Greenfield Central (Next 4) Easley (Next 4) Bourbon Co (A-2) Signal Mountain (A-3) Archbishop Alter (A-4) Class AAA/AAAA Semifinalists Broken Arrow Carmel Avon The Woodlands Flower Mound Marcus CTJ Reagan Vista Ridge Dobyns-Bennett (AAA-1) Wando Blue Springs (AAA-2) Fishers Mason Round Rock Brownsburg Castle (AAA-3) Mustang Franklin (AAA-4) Centerville O'Fallon Homestead Cleveland Rosemount Plus top 6 from A/AA So under this idea, PCEP and Rockford would have missed who made it. You could always do 26 and 4 for semis (or 27/3) if that was a concern. Probably my favorite proposal so far even with who proposed it (just kidding, please don't fire me montoya ).
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Post by philodemus on Nov 8, 2022 12:01:10 GMT -6
There was an idea floating around a couple years ago (maybe Daniel Montoya?) that involved being able to host A/AA and AAA/AAAA type events the same weekend without really changing a whole lot. I think it went something like this: Thursday All day starting at 8:00 am - A/AA Prelims Evening - A/AA Prelim awards, announce class awards and top 12 finalists (maybe top 4 in each class and next 4 overall?) Friday 8:00-6:00 or so - AAA/AAAA Prelims (there are fewer groups in those classes) 6:00 - AAA/AAAA Prelim awards, announce class awards and top 24 semifinalists (top 4 in each class and next 16 overall?) 8:00 - A/AA Finals, do the full retreat just like Saturday night, top 6 make semifinals as well Saturday 8:00 Semifinals begin (no more 6:15 bands) Top 24 AAA/AAAA go first since they had Friday night off, top 6 A/AA are the last 6 since they were on late Friday 5:00 Top 12 announced 8:00 Finals like always This system gives more A/AA groups a chance to play multiple times, eliminates the crack of dawn semifinals, and still allows for a group like Tarpon to make the big Saturday night show (they would actually perform 4 times). Using 2021 prelim scores, this is how everything would have shook out, which is a hypothetical since things would have been different with judging: Class A/AA Finalists Norwin (AA-1) Marian Catholic (AA-2) Jenison (AA-3) Murray (A-1) Miamisburg (AA-4) Lake Hamilton (Next 4) Morton (Next 4) Greenfield Central (Next 4) Easley (Next 4) Bourbon Co (A-2) Signal Mountain (A-3) Archbishop Alter (A-4) Class AAA/AAAA Semifinalists Broken Arrow Carmel Avon The Woodlands Flower Mound Marcus CTJ Reagan Vista Ridge Dobyns-Bennett (AAA-1) Wando Blue Springs (AAA-2) Fishers Mason Round Rock Brownsburg Castle (AAA-3) Mustang Franklin (AAA-4) Centerville O'Fallon Homestead Cleveland Rosemount Plus top 6 from A/AA So under this idea, PCEP and Rockford would have missed who made it. You could always do 26 and 4 for semis (or 27/3) if that was a concern. This seems pretty solid... let's do this.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 8, 2022 12:18:57 GMT -6
My first reaction is that AAA/AAAA seems bare. While every finalist did make the cut, it's barely doing so which could be a problem on years where the cutoff for finals is tight. One 2021 finalist would have missed the cut in this scenario. Mason was the 12th AAAA band with only the top 10 making semifinals in the scenario.
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Post by paddy on Nov 8, 2022 12:29:00 GMT -6
My first reaction is that AAA/AAAA seems bare. While every finalist did make the cut, it's barely doing so which could be a problem on years where the cutoff for finals is tight. One 2021 finalist would have missed the cut in this scenario. Mason was the 12th AAAA band with only the top 10 making semifinals in the scenario. I'm not real upset about that...
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 8, 2022 12:32:19 GMT -6
One 2021 finalist would have missed the cut in this scenario. Mason was the 12th AAAA band with only the top 10 making semifinals in the scenario. I'm not real upset about that... Fishers would've been the first band out. Bet you're more upset about that than you would have been about Mason.
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Post by paddy on Nov 8, 2022 12:49:50 GMT -6
I think I did this right.
2019
A/AA finals:
Panel 1 A1 - Norton Panel 1 A2 - Estill Panel 1 AA1 - Lake Hamilton Panel 1 AA2 - Greenfield-Central Panel 2 A1 - Bourbon County Panel 2 A2 - Beechwood Panel 2 AA1 - Miamisburg Panel 2 AA2 - Marian Catholic Next Overall A - Archbishop Alter Next Overall AA - North Hardin Next Overall - Jenison Next Overall - Campbell County Next Overall - Blue Valley West Next Overall - Greendale Next Overall - Davenport Central
AAA/AAAA finals:
Panel 1 AAA1 - Leander Panel 1 AAA2 - James Madison Panel 1 AAAA1 - Vandergrift Panel 1 AAAA2 - Hebron Panel 2 AAA1 - Milford Panel 2 AAA2 - Chatahoochee Panel 2 AAAA1 - Avon Panel 2 AAAA2 - CTJ Next Overall AAA - Columbus North Next Overall AAAA - Carmel Next Overall - Woodlands Next Overall - Round Rock Next Overall - Homestead Next Overall - W. Mason Next Overall - Ayala
2018
A/AA finals:
Panel 1 A1 - Norton Panel 1 A2 - Lewis Cass Panel 1 AA1 - Tarpon Springs Panel 1 AA2 - Marian Catholic Panel 2 A1 - Bourbon County Panel 2 A2 - Monrovia Panel 2 AA1 - Greenfield-Central Panel 2 AA2 - Camdenton Next Overall A - Adair County Next Overall AA - North Hardin Next Overall - Morton Next Overall - Greendale Next Overall - Father Ryan Next Overall - Central Crossing Next Overall - Jenison
AAA/AAAA finals:
Panel 1 AAA1 - DB Panel 1 AAA2 - Franklin TN Panel 1 AAAA1 - Blue Springs Panel 1 AAAA2 - Broken Arrow Panel 2 AAA1 - Homestead Panel 2 AAA2 - Goshen Panel 2 AAAA1 - Carmel Panel 2 AAAA2 - Avon Next Overall AAA - Castle Next Overall AAAA - Wando Next Overall - W Mason Next Overall - Jenks Next Overall - Fishers Next Overall - Prosper Next Overall - Center Grove
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Post by paddy on Nov 8, 2022 12:52:18 GMT -6
I'm not real upset about that... Fishers would've been the first band out. Bet you're more upset about that than you would have been about Mason. Nope, that one doesn't bother me too much either. Fishers is impressive, but personally, I couldn't care less about them. Admittedly, I have some deep history with that area. I am a small school guy. I am ok losing a couple of AAAA schools for more A/AA bands.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 8, 2022 14:11:57 GMT -6
Scene Unseen was awesome, and it was especially awesome getting to see it again this year at San Antonio
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Post by ohioguy2 on Nov 14, 2022 6:43:03 GMT -6
There was an idea floating around a couple years ago (maybe Daniel Montoya?) that involved being able to host A/AA and AAA/AAAA type events the same weekend without really changing a whole lot. I think it went something like this: Thursday All day starting at 8:00 am - A/AA Prelims Evening - A/AA Prelim awards, announce class awards and top 12 finalists (maybe top 4 in each class and next 4 overall?) Friday 8:00-6:00 or so - AAA/AAAA Prelims (there are fewer groups in those classes) 6:00 - AAA/AAAA Prelim awards, announce class awards and top 24 semifinalists (top 4 in each class and next 16 overall?) 8:00 - A/AA Finals, do the full retreat just like Saturday night, top 6 make semifinals as well Saturday 8:00 Semifinals begin (no more 6:15 bands) Top 24 AAA/AAAA go first since they had Friday night off, top 6 A/AA are the last 6 since they were on late Friday 5:00 Top 12 announced 8:00 Finals like always This system gives more A/AA groups a chance to play multiple times, eliminates the crack of dawn semifinals, and still allows for a group like Tarpon to make the big Saturday night show (they would actually perform 4 times). Using 2021 prelim scores, this is how everything would have shook out, which is a hypothetical since things would have been different with judging: Class A/AA Finalists Norwin (AA-1) Marian Catholic (AA-2) Jenison (AA-3) Murray (A-1) Miamisburg (AA-4) Lake Hamilton (Next 4) Morton (Next 4) Greenfield Central (Next 4) Easley (Next 4) Bourbon Co (A-2) Signal Mountain (A-3) Archbishop Alter (A-4) Class AAA/AAAA Semifinalists Broken Arrow Carmel Avon The Woodlands Flower Mound Marcus CTJ Reagan Vista Ridge Dobyns-Bennett (AAA-1) Wando Blue Springs (AAA-2) Fishers Mason Round Rock Brownsburg Castle (AAA-3) Mustang Franklin (AAA-4) Centerville O'Fallon Homestead Cleveland Rosemount Plus top 6 from A/AA So under this idea, PCEP and Rockford would have missed who made it. You could always do 26 and 4 for semis (or 27/3) if that was a concern. Using the preliminary scores from this past weekend, here is how the weekend would have shook out (of course this is hypothetical). Class A/AA Finals (top 4 in each class, next 4 overall) Tarpon Springs Jenison Morton Kiski Area Grain Valley Miamisburg Campbell County Marian Catholic Archbishop Alter Beechwood Bourbon Co. Murray Semifinals (top 4 in the largest two classes, next 16 overall) Broken Arrow Carmel Avon Mason Dobyns-Bennett Fishers Prosper Brownsburg Homestead O'Fallon Township MG Johnson Mustang Castle American Fork Hendrickson Stoneman Douglas Rosemount Centerville Southlake Carroll JF Byrnes Lincoln-Way Lakota West Lakota East Goshen Top 6 from A/AA If you do 26/4 you add Plymouth-Canton and Cleveland, 27/3 adds Deer Creek
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rickofavon
Senior Member
Never let the drumming die.
Posts: 74
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Post by rickofavon on Nov 14, 2022 7:24:43 GMT -6
To be honest I’d rather see the A champ compete in finals regardless of their score. 4 automatic spots for class champs. 12 next highest scores overall. You still have the top 12 getting in plus all the class champs. So sixteen finalists. Oh no more marching band! How terrible! 😂
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 14, 2022 8:16:54 GMT -6
To be honest I’d rather see the A champ compete in finals regardless of their score. 4 automatic spots for class champs. 12 next highest scores overall. You still have the top 12 getting in plus all the class champs. So sixteen finalists. Oh no more marching band! How terrible! 😂 As enjoyable as that sounds, if we had that many bands in finals, the award ceremony would not start until 1 or 2 AM. I am too damn old to stay up that late.
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Post by philodemus on Nov 14, 2022 9:10:05 GMT -6
A fascinating exercise would be to have let Alter compete against the Finalists.
It would be a real test of judging philosophy: Alter had 100% buy in and commitment while marching and playing a somewhat simpler show nearly flawlessly. So, what matters here, judging community? To what extent is it about maxing out what you're given, and to what extent is it about the challenge level of what you've got? Where do you draw the line?
And as far as effect goes, everyone seems to agree Alter left them smiling from ear to ear and happy as can be... Can you honestly say that about every group in Finals? And if not, then weren't you more 'effected' by Alter?
I will personally remember Alter for a very long time, and I've already forgotten roughly half the finalists shows.
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Post by thewho on Nov 14, 2022 9:16:05 GMT -6
I'm not real upset about that... I am. A band of that caliber shouldn’t be missing because of a convoluted system, while this system does a service to top A/AA bands it does so in exchange of leaving smaller less competitive AAA/AAAA bands in the dust. I’m in the minority, but I think the system right now works. Maybe evenly move class champions throughout all of semis instead of having them all first and other switches but for now it’s what we have. I can’t help but think that we’re doing all of these switches for the case that Tarpon doesn’t win AA which is not something we should be doing, they are a weird exception to the system and we shouldn’t throw it all away because of them. Sorry if this was incoherent, but I hope I got my general idea across. I’m also not a fan of the two location system, because it inevitably leads to A/AA playing in the cold in an undomed arena somewhere. It’s what’s happening with DCI right now with open and world class and it bugs me. If A/AA goes to a double location, BOA will not let occur in an unroofed location. That's a guarantee.
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Post by 4score on Nov 14, 2022 10:15:38 GMT -6
There was an idea floating around a couple years ago (maybe Daniel Montoya?) that involved being able to host A/AA and AAA/AAAA type events the same weekend without really changing a whole lot. I think it went something like this: Thursday All day starting at 8:00 am - A/AA Prelims Evening - A/AA Prelim awards, announce class awards and top 12 finalists (maybe top 4 in each class and next 4 overall?) Friday 8:00-6:00 or so - AAA/AAAA Prelims (there are fewer groups in those classes) 6:00 - AAA/AAAA Prelim awards, announce class awards and top 24 semifinalists (top 4 in each class and next 16 overall?) 8:00 - A/AA Finals, do the full retreat just like Saturday night, top 6 make semifinals as well Saturday 8:00 Semifinals begin (no more 6:15 bands) Top 24 AAA/AAAA go first since they had Friday night off, top 6 A/AA are the last 6 since they were on late Friday 5:00 Top 12 announced 8:00 Finals like always This system gives more A/AA groups a chance to play multiple times, eliminates the crack of dawn semifinals, and still allows for a group like Tarpon to make the big Saturday night show (they would actually perform 4 times). Using 2021 prelim scores, this is how everything would have shook out, which is a hypothetical since things would have been different with judging: Class A/AA Finalists Norwin (AA-1) Marian Catholic (AA-2) Jenison (AA-3) Murray (A-1) Miamisburg (AA-4) Lake Hamilton (Next 4) Morton (Next 4) Greenfield Central (Next 4) Easley (Next 4) Bourbon Co (A-2) Signal Mountain (A-3) Archbishop Alter (A-4) Class AAA/AAAA Semifinalists Broken Arrow Carmel Avon The Woodlands Flower Mound Marcus CTJ Reagan Vista Ridge Dobyns-Bennett (AAA-1) Wando Blue Springs (AAA-2) Fishers Mason Round Rock Brownsburg Castle (AAA-3) Mustang Franklin (AAA-4) Centerville O'Fallon Homestead Cleveland Rosemount Plus top 6 from A/AA So under this idea, PCEP and Rockford would have missed who made it. You could always do 26 and 4 for semis (or 27/3) if that was a concern. This seems pretty solid... let's do this. This seems like a great plan. I’m always pulling for smaller schools even though I enjoy watching the big ones.
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