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Post by Shroom on Nov 13, 2022 0:54:40 GMT -6
Given that the future of the Dome is in question (the maintenance money runs out in a couple of years and there's a lot of deferred maintenance needed, not to mention the age of the stadium), the St. Louis Dome may be a goner sooner rather than later. But they have all that NFL/Rams lawsuit money coming in.....that I'm sure the city will allocate responsibly. I do wonder if the new soccer stadium could be a viable venue for a regional if the dome goes down. that I'm sure the city will allocate responsibly.
Made me audibly laugh, good job lol
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Post by paddy on Nov 13, 2022 0:58:40 GMT -6
Given that the future of the Dome is in question (the maintenance money runs out in a couple of years and there's a lot of deferred maintenance needed, not to mention the age of the stadium), the St. Louis Dome may be a goner sooner rather than later. But they have all that NFL/Rams lawsuit money coming in.....that I'm sure the city will allocate responsibly. I do wonder if the new soccer stadium could be a viable venue for a regional if the dome goes down. Real grass or turf? Seems like most soccer stadiums opt for grass.
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Post by weller22 on Nov 13, 2022 1:04:09 GMT -6
But they have all that NFL/Rams lawsuit money coming in.....that I'm sure the city will allocate responsibly. I do wonder if the new soccer stadium could be a viable venue for a regional if the dome goes down. Real grass or turf? Seems like most soccer stadiums opt for grass. Quick Google search shows that it will be grass. So much for that. BOA may be looking for a new city for a regional if they don't figure out the dome (the XFL will be playing there this spring so that's at least a reason to keep it for now)
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 13, 2022 8:15:28 GMT -6
Grand Nationals can not be moved from year to year. It would be a logistical nightmare. BOA realized this in the 1980s as the size of Grand Nationals doubled over the course of the decade. The Pontiac Silverdome was a nice stadium but that was about it. It was determined in 1989 that Indy was the best choice. There was ample room for other activities and warm up in the convention center. Also lots of hotels and restaurants within walking distance. I know it gives Indiana bands an advantage, but I don't know of any other place that would work as well. Also Indy is a little more centrally located in terms of the population center of the US.
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Post by banddadguy on Nov 13, 2022 13:08:59 GMT -6
Grand Nationals can not be moved from year to year. It would be a logistical nightmare. BOA realized this in the 1980s as the size of Grand Nationals doubled over the course of the decade. The Pontiac Silverdome was a nice stadium but that was about it. It was determined in 1989 that Indy was the best choice. There was ample room for other activities and warm up in the convention center. Also lots of hotels and restaurants within walking distance. I know it gives Indiana bands an advantage, but I don't know of any other place that would work as well. Also Indy is a little more centrally located in terms of the population center of the US. Preach! lol Guess then what most who have this point of view should accept is that this isn't really a Grand Nationals competition. Just because it has the name doesn't really make this any different than a super regional. Until you make the travel and logistics fair across the board, it's hard to really say this competition crowns anything more than a Super Regional champion. If Indiana/Ohio schools want to prove themselves then go to SA Super Regional more often, or heck, Texas and Indy schools both go to St. Louis. I don't care where they meet, but until you can get a better representation of schools at a competition then let's stop pretending we are crowing national champions. I'd love for Tarpon Springs, Blue Springs, American Fork, Avon..etc., to compete at SA Super Regional just because I'd love for Texas fans to be more exposed to great bands from other states. I'd also say that SA did a super regional with 83 bands in 2 days. Nationals had 99 in 3 days. To say no other place could make it work is really stretching it. Does Indy have better acoustics, I would bet the answer is yes. But I also wonder if that's not just as simple as putting that big black hanging tarp over the back stands which no other venue does. I'm sure if SA did that it would improve their acoustics to a point. Most of us asking for a venue change are not saying that the judging favors any home band more than a visiting band. But we are saying by not putting it in a more centralized location, or not moving it every so often you are definitely giving some bands a much greater advantage of experiencing a nationals than many other deserving bands (because of costs and other conflicts like state, etc.). Just my thoughts though. Loved seeing the competition and unlike many others I was okay with the results mostly because I've done band for 30 years and I stopped trying to pretend I always knew what judges looked for. Carmel looked and sounded great, Avon looked and sounded Great, Mason looked and sounded great, and etc. I'd of been happy with any of them winning. Hope one day to see them all in person.
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Post by It's Just Band on Nov 13, 2022 13:15:14 GMT -6
Guess then what most who have this point of view should accept is that this isn't really a Grand Nationals competition. Just because it has the name doesn't really make this any different than a super regional. Until you make the travel and logistics fair across the board, it's hard to really say this competition crowns anything more than a Super Regional champion. If Indiana/Ohio schools want to prove themselves then go to SA Super Regional more often, or heck, Texas and Indy schools both go to St. Louis. I don't care where they meet, but until you can get a better representation of schools at a competition then let's stop pretending we are crowing national champions. I'd love for Tarpon Springs, Blue Springs, American Fork, Avon..etc., to compete at SA Super Regional just because I'd love for Texas fans to be more exposed to great bands from other states. I'd also say that SA did a super regional with 83 bands in 2 days. Nationals had 99 in 3 days. To say no other place could make it work is really stretching it. Does Indy have better acoustics, I would bet the answer is yes. But I also wonder if that's not just as simple as putting that big black hanging tarp over the back stands which no other venue does. I'm sure if SA did that it would improve their acoustics to a point. Most of us asking for a venue change are not saying that the judging favors any home band more than a visiting band. But we are saying by not putting it in a more centralized location, or not moving it every so often you are definitely giving some bands a much greater advantage of experiencing a nationals than many other deserving bands (because of costs and other conflicts like state, etc.). Just my thoughts though. Loved seeing the competition and unlike many others I was okay with the results mostly because I've done band for 30 years and I stopped trying to pretend I always knew what judges looked for. Carmel looked and sounded great, Avon looked and sounded Great, Mason looked and sounded great, and etc. I'd of been happy with any of them winning. Hope one day to see them all in person. it’s impossible to make travel and logistics fair across the board. One region is always going to have an advantage.
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Post by banddadguy on Nov 13, 2022 13:22:01 GMT -6
Guess then what most who have this point of view should accept is that this isn't really a Grand Nationals competition. Just because it has the name doesn't really make this any different than a super regional. Until you make the travel and logistics fair across the board, it's hard to really say this competition crowns anything more than a Super Regional champion. If Indiana/Ohio schools want to prove themselves then go to SA Super Regional more often, or heck, Texas and Indy schools both go to St. Louis. I don't care where they meet, but until you can get a better representation of schools at a competition then let's stop pretending we are crowing national champions. I'd love for Tarpon Springs, Blue Springs, American Fork, Avon..etc., to compete at SA Super Regional just because I'd love for Texas fans to be more exposed to great bands from other states. I'd also say that SA did a super regional with 83 bands in 2 days. Nationals had 99 in 3 days. To say no other place could make it work is really stretching it. Does Indy have better acoustics, I would bet the answer is yes. But I also wonder if that's not just as simple as putting that big black hanging tarp over the back stands which no other venue does. I'm sure if SA did that it would improve their acoustics to a point. Most of us asking for a venue change are not saying that the judging favors any home band more than a visiting band. But we are saying by not putting it in a more centralized location, or not moving it every so often you are definitely giving some bands a much greater advantage of experiencing a nationals than many other deserving bands (because of costs and other conflicts like state, etc.). Just my thoughts though. Loved seeing the competition and unlike many others I was okay with the results mostly because I've done band for 30 years and I stopped trying to pretend I always knew what judges looked for. Carmel looked and sounded great, Avon looked and sounded Great, Mason looked and sounded great, and etc. I'd of been happy with any of them winning. Hope one day to see them all in person. it’s impossible to make travel and logistics fair across the board. One region is always going to have an advantage. Hence why people have said you can move the event every so often. Even if it's just once every 4 years, who cares, it still then opens it up more than it does now. The only reason it won't move from Indy is because they signed a long term contract (similar to DCI) and money is involved. Yes Indy does it well, but all the other reasons (no other site can host it, too complicated, etc.) are just excuses that can easily be planned for. When you say it won't ever be fair, but you are okay with it only being unfair to everyone but the Indy/Ohio schools then that's just proving the point many people are making. Plus, I fully believe if they tried and were able to host it elsewhere every so often, it would continue to grow the exposure of the art.
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Post by dbalash on Nov 13, 2022 13:25:02 GMT -6
it’s impossible to make travel and logistics fair across the board. One region is always going to have an advantage. Hence why people have said you can move the event every so often. Even if it's just once every 4 years, who cares, it still then opens it up more than it does now. The only reason it won't move from Indy is because they signed a long term contract (similar to DCI) and money is involved. Yes Indy does it well, but all the other reasons (no other site can host it, too complicated, etc.) are just excuses that can easily be planned for. When you say it won't ever be fair, but you are okay with it only being unfair to everyone but the Indy/Ohio schools then that's just proving the point many people are making. Plus, I fully believe if they tried and were able to host it elsewhere every so often, it would continue to grow the exposure of the art. Just drop it. It's been in Indy 33 years. It ain't moving.
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Post by banddadguy on Nov 13, 2022 13:27:25 GMT -6
Hence why people have said you can move the event every so often. Even if it's just once every 4 years, who cares, it still then opens it up more than it does now. The only reason it won't move from Indy is because they signed a long term contract (similar to DCI) and money is involved. Yes Indy does it well, but all the other reasons (no other site can host it, too complicated, etc.) are just excuses that can easily be planned for. When you say it won't ever be fair, but you are okay with it only being unfair to everyone but the Indy/Ohio schools then that's just proving the point many people are making. Plus, I fully believe if they tried and were able to host it elsewhere every so often, it would continue to grow the exposure of the art. Just drop it. It's been in Indy 33 years. It ain't moving. Oh, because you said so..... Just because it has been somewhere, doesn't mean it can't grow with the art. If you don't like dissenting opinions, then you move on. But people don't have to drop it just because you want them to.
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Post by trombonium on Nov 13, 2022 13:39:06 GMT -6
Level the playing field. Hold Grand Nats in Guam every year so everyone is equally disadvantaged and unhappy.
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Post by coolhornplayer on Nov 13, 2022 13:49:00 GMT -6
Level the playing field. Hold Grand Nats in Guam every year so everyone is equally disadvantaged and unhappy. This person is giving the real solutions
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Post by croutonjones on Nov 13, 2022 13:49:17 GMT -6
Level the playing field. Hold Grand Nats in Guam every year so everyone is equally disadvantaged and unhappy. This has the distinct quality of being funny AND technically correct.
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Post by thewho on Nov 13, 2022 13:51:06 GMT -6
Just drop it. It's been in Indy 33 years. It ain't moving. Oh, because you said so..... Just because it has been somewhere, doesn't mean it can't grow with the art. If you don't like dissenting opinions, then you move on. But people don't have to drop it just because you want them to. Grand Nationals were held in the Hoosier Dome for many years before it got torn down and Lucas Oil Stadium built (again, taking significantly into account what BOA/MFA and DCI wanted out of the stadium whilst designing and constructing). Factually, Indy did grow with the activity. I don't mind you stating you want the GN's in a different place. Many people do. The matter of the fact is that many people (including those from Texas) that had been a part of the Indy Super/Grand Nationals experience fully agree that Indy offers and supports so many niche needs of the events. There is a reason why people believe it is very unlikely to move the event away from LOS and Indianapolis.
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Post by Allohak on Nov 13, 2022 13:53:56 GMT -6
The location discussion has been had to death and beyond. Indianapolis is the only viable option and will remain so until another city near enough to the population center of the country builds a top-class indoor performance facility taking acoustics into account within its design, ample affordable hotel accommodations, ease of pedestrian traffic, nearby indoor rehearsal space, local direct support for the pageantry arts as a whole, etc etc etc etc etc
There's good reason Indy is the annual home to so many large events, conventions, and the like.
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glmain
Junior Member
Posts: 16
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Post by glmain on Nov 13, 2022 13:57:17 GMT -6
Maybe if you all want to discuss moving grand nats somewhere else (something that I think would largely be unpopular), maybe just start a different thread? Instead of clogging this one?
I want to add my voice to the side that thinks Carmel deserved to win, and not only to win but to win handily. The visual cleanliness was insane, and the symphonic sound was just unrivaled. I didn't care for the show very much, but I question your marching band credentials if think that show didn't have immense demand. It was very classic marching band, not super flashy, but they were *moving* and looked and sounded fantastic.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 13, 2022 13:59:49 GMT -6
I’m not willing to give up the Skywalk
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 13, 2022 14:24:39 GMT -6
I’m not willing to give up the Skywalk ^this. I agree it’s great where it is. San Antonio held 83 bands or whatever yes, but LOS is FAR superior in every way.
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Post by abtwitch on Nov 13, 2022 14:34:54 GMT -6
Resident Texan here to say that the northerners are right. LOS is superior to the Alamodome in almost every way possible. And I can say that without even having been to LOS.
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Post by cheesemcdiddlesworth on Nov 13, 2022 14:40:33 GMT -6
Level the playing field. Hold Grand Nats in Guam every year so everyone is equally disadvantaged and unhappy. While you are at it, record each finalist show from 50 cameras. Final judging will be via a panel of 50 judges using all camera views utilizing slow motion replay. Each performer will have a microphone and accelerometers attached to all limbs to evaluate excellence. The panel will have 3 weeks to declare a winner and the awards ceremony will be presented virtually by box5...until the stream goes down. Problems solved. I'll take my consulting fee now.
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Post by trombonium on Nov 13, 2022 14:46:27 GMT -6
Level the playing field. Hold Grand Nats in Guam every year so everyone is equally disadvantaged and unhappy. While you are at it, record each finalist show from 50 cameras. Final judging will be via a panel of 50 judges using all camera views utilizing slow motion replay. Each performer will have a microphone and accelerometers attached to all limbs to evaluate excellence. The panel will have 3 weeks to declare a winner and the awards ceremony will be presented virtually by box5...until the stream goes down. Problems solved. I'll take my consulting fee now. Currently, you can only really see when a trombonist hits the wrong slide position, not so for other winds with their little pistons and buttons. With slow-motion replay, not even clarinets would be safe. I like it.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 13, 2022 15:01:36 GMT -6
I'd also say that SA did a super regional with 83 bands in 2 days. Nationals had 99 in 3 days. To say no other place could make it work is really stretching it. Does Indy have better acoustics, I would bet the answer is yes. But I also wonder if that's not just as simple as putting that big black hanging tarp over the back stands which no other venue does. I'm sure if SA did that it would improve their acoustics to a point. It is most definitely NOT as simple as hanging some "tarps." The drapes help, but would not make the Alamodome acoustically sound. It was not designed with marching band/drum corps in mind. Lucas Oil Stadium was. As for your 83 bands in two days vs. 99 bands in three days point, you cannot compare this as apples (registered at SASR) to oranges (competing bands at GN). You must compare gala apples (actual SASR performances) to Granny Smith apples (actual GN performances). San Antonio - 80 scored prelims performances + 14 scored finals performances + 2 Class Champions in finals exhibition + 1 college exhibition = 97 performances over 2 days (48.5 per day) Grand Nationals - 99 scored prelims performances + 34 scored semifinals performances + 12 scored finals performances + 1 Class Champion in finals exhibition + 2 college exhibitions + 2 exhibitions involving Indianapolis Public Schools = 150 performances over 3 days (50 per day) If you "don't count" exhibitions, the total for SASR is 94 (47 per day) and GN is 145 (48.33 per day).
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 13, 2022 15:16:16 GMT -6
I’m not willing to give up the Skywalk ^this. I agree it’s great where it is. San Antonio held 83 bands or whatever yes, but LOS is FAR superior in every way. San Antonio is a beautiful city, but the walk to the stadium is…not the safest. I’m very grateful that my boyfriend was with me because we were approached a few times just walking back and forth from our hotel. There are hotels much closer in St. Louis if you pay for them, but I have a very hard time seeing a future where the stadium is rescued from its rapidly approaching fate.
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Post by doublegeez on Nov 13, 2022 15:30:01 GMT -6
Oh how awesome it would be to have a usable stadium in the center of the states.
It would open boundless opportunities for everyone too
A real question however. With the inevitable downfall of the St. Louis stadium, where would the regional popular enough to merit a ‘super’ prefix go to?
Would there just be an empty void of a super regional? Or would SA and Indy super become even more stacked? I’m sure there’d be a new super somewhere but we’ll see what happens.
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Post by allthingschaotic on Nov 13, 2022 15:35:00 GMT -6
To add on, there's a lot of hotels near LOS. LOS is very close to Indy's downtown center. There are several hotels within walking distance (though I doubt you'd see 300 kids in uniform walking around Indy) and many more in the city center. The Indiana Convention Center is also within walking distance, which is where many bands rehearse. That place is huge and contains enough space to for at least two bands to rehearse at the same time.
Now, let's look at the Alamodome. I-37 separates it from downtown SA. There are very few hotels on the Dome side of the highway. Stray a little east from the Dome and you're in a dark and scary neighborhood with rundown houses and graffiti everywhere. There are hotels in downtown SA, but given that there are many attractions there, the hotel prices are high and there probably aren't many rooms available. You'd end up having to stay somewhere far north of downtown SA, near the airport, Randolph AFB, UTSA, or Six Flags. Even then, some prices are higher than the hotels at Indy.
Then there's the issue of rehearsal space. There's a reason why you don't see videos of corps and bands rehearsing at Henry B Gonzalez Convention Center. Why? I don't know. But the only main musical use of that place is for TMEA All-State. Instead, bands rehearse in other high schools' fields. Hebron used Reagan in 2021 and a different school used Winston Churchill, but I know some went as far away as Boerne (35 miles from the Alamodome.) San Antonio can't do a contest on the scale of Grand Nats, and I bet it even struggles to host a super regional and the state contests.
Also, if Grand Nats was done in San Antonio, it would basically replace the super regional. It would be oversaturated by Texas bands (and maybe Oklahoma?) that northern groups will just give up on coming, maybe except some of the Indiana schools. This basically ruins our goal of having state diversity.
That's just one example, but I'm sure you'd run into similar issues when you look at other cities.
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 13, 2022 15:43:34 GMT -6
^this. I agree it’s great where it is. San Antonio held 83 bands or whatever yes, but LOS is FAR superior in every way. San Antonio is a beautiful city, but the walk to the stadium is…not the safest. I’m very grateful that my boyfriend was with me because we were approached a few times just walking back and forth from our hotel. There are hotels much closer in St. Louis if you pay for them, but I have a very hard time seeing a future where the stadium is rescued from its rapidly approaching fate. So true
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Post by thewho on Nov 13, 2022 15:46:33 GMT -6
^this. I agree it’s great where it is. San Antonio held 83 bands or whatever yes, but LOS is FAR superior in every way. San Antonio is a beautiful city, but the walk to the stadium is…not the safest. I’m very grateful that my boyfriend was with me because we were approached a few times just walking back and forth from our hotel. There are hotels much closer in St. Louis if you pay for them, but I have a very hard time seeing a future where the stadium is rescued from its rapidly approaching fate. Obviously, I'm a dude so I can't speak from a woman's perspective at all, so please don't misunderstand me for attempting to erase over this legitimate point (with a somewhat less impactful one). I'll add the infrastructure for getting into Alamodome is quite poorly designed. If one is approaching from the west (from the Riverwalk), you'll need to cross under the highway, so that means cars are likely to be speeding through without any consideration. From what I could tell, there were only two streets where one could cross under to reach the Alamodome. Compare that to the Skywalk and one would theoretically never need to touch the street at all.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 13, 2022 16:05:03 GMT -6
San Antonio is a beautiful city, but the walk to the stadium is…not the safest. I’m very grateful that my boyfriend was with me because we were approached a few times just walking back and forth from our hotel. There are hotels much closer in St. Louis if you pay for them, but I have a very hard time seeing a future where the stadium is rescued from its rapidly approaching fate. Obviously, I'm a dude so I can't speak from a woman's perspective at all, so please don't misunderstand me for attempting to erase over this legitimate point (with a somewhat less impactful one). I'll add the infrastructure for getting into Alamodome is quite poorly designed. If one is approaching from the west (from the Riverwalk), you'll need to cross under the highway, so that means cars are likely to be speeding through without any consideration. From what I could tell, there were only two streets where one could cross under to reach the Alamodome. Compare that to the Skywalk and one would theoretically never need to touch the street at all. No you’re totally right…so many crosswalks!! My ideal world is one with lots and lots of Skywalks. And Skylines like at the DFW Airport!
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Post by bandsquirrel32 on Nov 13, 2022 16:17:47 GMT -6
The location discussion has been had to death and beyond. Indianapolis is the only viable option and will remain so until another city near enough to the population center of the country builds a top-class indoor performance facility taking acoustics into account within its design, ample affordable hotel accommodations, ease of pedestrian traffic, nearby indoor rehearsal space, local direct support for the pageantry arts as a whole, etc etc etc etc etc There's good reason Indy is the annual home to so many large events, conventions, and the like. Everybody keeps repeating the talking point that they took "accoustics into account within its design", but nobody can actually articulate what is different about this stadium than others that makes it so. Let's just say I am very skeptical that a stadium, built for purposes of football, would sacrifice anything (even a small increase in cost) to cater to the marching arts. They most definitely designed the stadium so that the fan noise best reaches the field when the Indianapolis Colts are on defense. In my opinion, for band, any open air venue is going to be far superior to an indoor one.
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Post by AvonDad on Nov 13, 2022 16:31:52 GMT -6
I'll throw this one out there.... first, I am a few years out from having a kiddo in the band as now its DCI, so I am more of an outsider now a days. I was at both SA and GN in 2017 and 2019 and enjoyed SA over GN due to the tremendous Texas bands. That said, the one thing to remember, which I've talked about on TXBands, LOS has escalators, the Alamodome does not.
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Post by banddadguy on Nov 13, 2022 16:46:00 GMT -6
I think this whole topic of moving facilities is just ridiculous. LOS is the best equipped to handle this event, on so many levels. Period. The subject is brought up every year as an attempt to try and discredit the winner (when it’s not their choice winner). “Well so and so wasn’t there…blah blah blah” Give it up. No one is trying to discredit the winner, or most aren't. Most who want to visit this subject and try for a solution want more bands outside the Indiana/Ohio area to be able to experience a GN and also to get a more diverse set of participation. PERIOD. If SA is not good like all the "pro LOS" people say, then why not start looking now for something in 5-10 years that will be a great alternative. Especially as the art grows. I'm looking for more inclusion, PERIOD. I was even talking to a BOA staff member at SA who wishes there would be a way to more centralize the GN for better/more inclusive participation. It's not a closed subject like everyone who is pro LOS say. But for now if nothing can be done, then it doesn't mean BOA shouldn't try for a longer term option if they want to continue to be inclusive of all states. As for the person who tried to say the match of GN overwhelms the # of performances in SA. Not really. SA Super Regional fit 97 performances in 2 days with a 3 hour break in between the last prelim to finals. If you do the 2 all day prelims and then Saturday do the semi and finals the other stadiums can do the exact same thing as LOS. That is not a valid reason why another venue can not host the event. But it is what it is.
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