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Post by boahistorybuff on Jan 16, 2023 11:43:27 GMT -6
This is something I am thinking of bringing up when I eventually get to the 2022 Season Review. I thought it may be a good discussion topic to see what some of the various opinions are on the subject.
In today's world we are bombarded with news headlines and short video clips. Through social media and our smart phones so much information (and in some cases misinformation) comes flying at us constantly. In some ways it seems the marching arts may be mimicking 21st Century life. Most marching band and DCI shows have so much going musically and visually these days. Shows switch rapidly between musical genres, tempo variations, killer soloists, all while a ton of stuff is going on visually from marching to body movements to guard equipment flying around not to mention props moving all over the field. Now don't get me wrong, I do love all of that. There were some shows that I noticed some of the younger members described as boring, but I did not think they were boring at all. A perfect example is the Grand National Champion; Carmel. I saw a lot of comments from some (particularly the students) who thought the show was boring. I did not have that take at all. I felt the pace of the show was such that I found myself more focused on the brilliance of their music performance, like I was sitting listening to a symphony. While some of their visual moves may not have been as energetic as some of the other bands, they were so clean that it really made me kind of savor the visual routine. There was just so much subtlety I found myself very drawn into the show. Many of the other shows, as impressive as they were, had so much visual and musical changes that it was almost like sensory overload. And yes, I did love those shows and they certainly kept my interest. But the more subtle shows like Carmel also kept me focused. I also remember seeing a few comments that some thought Vandegrift's show was a little boring in spots. I on the other hand loved the softer, slower portions of Vandy's show. I can certainly say that 30 years ago a show like Carmel would have been considered anything but boring. Being among the older group on these forums, I am wondering what all of your opinions are. Did a show like Carmel have more appeal to the older (over 40) crowd and much less appeal to the younger (under 20) crowd?
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Post by srv1084 on Jan 17, 2023 4:03:42 GMT -6
This is something I am thinking of bringing up when I eventually get to the 2022 Season Review. I thought it may be a good discussion topic to see what some of the various opinions are on the subject. In today's world we are bombarded with news headlines and short video clips. Through social media and our smart phones so much information (and in some cases misinformation) comes flying at us constantly. In some ways it seems the marching arts my be mimicking 21st Century life. Most marching band and DCI shows have so much going musically and visually these days. Shows switch rapidly between musical genres, tempo variations, killer soloists, all while a ton of stuff is going on visually from marching to body movements to guard equipment flying around not to mention props moving all over the field. Now don't get me wrong, I do love all of that. There were some shows that I noticed some of the younger members described as boring, but I did not think they were boring at all. A perfect example is the Grand National Champion; Carmel. I saw a lot of comments from some (particularly the students) who thought the show was boring. I did not have that take at all. I felt the pace of the show was such that I found myself more focused on the brilliance of their music performance, like I was sitting listening to a symphony. While some of their visual moves may not have been as energetic as some of the other bands, they were so clean that it really made me kind of savor the visual routine. There was just so much subtlety I found myself very drawn into the show. Many of the other shows, as impressive as they were, had so much visual and musical changes that it was almost like sensory overload. And yes, I did love those shows and they certainly kept my interest. But the more subtle shows like Carmel also kept me focused. I also remember seeing a few comments that some thought Vandegrift's show was a little boring in spots. I on the other hand loved the softer, slower portions of Vandy's show. I can certainly say that 30 years ago a show like Carmel would have been considered anything but boring. Being among the older group on these forums, I am wondering what all of your opinions are. Did a show like Carmel have more appeal to the older (over 40) crowd and much less appeal to the younger (under 20) crowd? I fall into the "almost" older crowd based on those age groups. I'm very torn when it comes to my preference in show design, as I find myself appreciating styles from both sides of the spectrum. I love the history of this activity and find myself still appreciating and enjoying shows dating back quite a few decades. I want to see this activity continue to evolve and present us with something new and fresh, but I hope it doesn't happen while sacrificing basic elements of show design. Development of musical and visual phrases and ideas, continuity/seamless transitions, and melody are what I find most appealing in shows. Layering voices and visual moments always takes precedence over competing elements for me. Variety and vocabulary can be achieved in ways that aren't so jarring. There are some designers and bands dating back to the early 2000s that have made an identity out of throwing everything imaginable into their shows without letting the moment breathe, so to speak, but all those moments seem to work as a whole. While they've been successful, those are usually the ones I have most trouble enjoying as there seem to be so many competing ideas with very little ability to develop beyond bite-sized pieces.
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Post by hewhowaits on Jan 17, 2023 7:08:51 GMT -6
I'm definitely one of the older generation. Count me as finding more appeal to a Carmel 2022 than many of the "interesting" or "exciting" shows.
I prefer shows that incorporate enough of each musical piece to make it readily identifiable rather than the mash up of short clips. I don't necessarily care if I recognize the piece, just that it be recognizable to those familiar with the genre from which it comes. I also prefer evolving visual effects rather than rapid transitions that follow no recognizable form.
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Post by checkandclose on Jan 17, 2023 21:36:06 GMT -6
Under 20 here, Carmel's show to me was honestly artful as a modern marching show, it felt very much like an early 2010's-esque show with the orchestral musicality and minimal props. I was really confused when I saw so many people saying it was boring or unmemorable, because to me it was definitely the best show of 2022
With that said though I LOVE the newer types of show designs that have come around these past few years. A lot of people seem to hate custom uniforms and props, but when done right I think it adds so much to the production. Visual theming has become more and more prevalent in marching band/dci, and it makes a show feel so much more immersive when they serve a true purpose. The same goes for custom music
Of course there is a balance to be held when doing these things, a show should never be boring to listen to on its own, or boring to watch without sound. But when music and visuals are balanced well, a beautiful production is made. Modern marching shows are more creative and unique than ever, and the marching arts will continue to evolve as time goes on, as art inevitably does
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Post by philodemus on Jan 19, 2023 8:44:03 GMT -6
I mean, obviously art is subjective, etc.
That being said, I am an old guy who has been in love with and involved with this activity for 3+ decades. Classically, I should be the sort who is upset about change and wishes the corps still had G bugles and the bands still wore school colors. I mean, that's what seems to happen to other old guys.
But, I find that my familiarity with this thing pushes me strongly in the other direction. What I want at this point is something different, I want to be surprised and delighted. I want to think, "That's so cool, why didn't anyone think of that before?"
I watched Carmel and thought, "Those students are stunningly talented and well trained. That was thoughtfully designed and beautifully executed." Then I nearly forgot it completely.
The one and only show I am likely to remember from this season 5 years hence was Tarpon. That was trying something different and interesting.
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Post by 70sguardchick on Jan 19, 2023 9:13:16 GMT -6
I'm another who has been around the activity for almost four decades who isn't stuck in the past. What I want from a show is to FEEL something. Orchestral goosebumps? Warm happiness? Tug at the heartstrings? Dark creepies? Astonishment at the creativity? Jaw dropping effects? All of the above! I just want a show to have a heart and bring me the feels. I have jumped to my feet in joy at shows in 1978 and I continue to do so today.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Jan 19, 2023 9:40:34 GMT -6
Some very interesting perspectives. So perhaps not so much a generational issue but more of a preferences issue. I did like Tarpon and they certainly had a memorable show. For me, echoing what 70sguardchick said, I certainly felt something with Carmel's show. I had a similar reaction to Hebron this season as well. I watched Grand National Finals with a few people who were in band and into Drum Corp in the 1980s but have not followed the activity since. They were more drawn to Carmel's show. I wonder if those students brand new to the activity who are not familiar with show styles of the past may not have been as excited with Carmel. Most of us who are regularly on these forums in the off season have been following the activity for a long time. Just some food for thought I guess.
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Post by ilikeguard on Jan 19, 2023 12:39:21 GMT -6
I'm young. I'll vouch for the fact that I was definitely a bit more entertained with the constant moving-around of Tarpon. But whoever thinks Carmel's show was boring must have not been watching! There's a moment in the show that I'm still stuck on where the performers are in these incredibly tight pods and were marching backwards within inches of each other. Is that more impressive than sprinting across the field? If we've learned anything, the jury's still out on that one (like it is on everything).
The great thing about appealing to emotion is that we all have different lived experiences that influence our personal emotions and reactions to art. A large part of the audience is made up of students who have very different lived experiences from the (objectively older) judges. It's easy to see where disagreements arise, especially when we're involved in the arts and therefore very passionate!
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Post by WoodlandsMom4ever on Jan 20, 2023 1:58:08 GMT -6
I don’t know if it’s a generational divide or if it’s just a more stylistic preference. I would be in the older generation if you go by my birthdate… but I struggle to enjoy Carmel’s shows sometimes and others that are more of a traditional style. I can appreciate what they do and acknowledge the skill level that it takes, but I don’t enjoy it in the way that I enjoy some of the other shows that others think are too over the top.
It reminds me of one football game when the band for our opponents was a military style band. I’ve heard of football crowds that don’t appreciate their band’s halftime show each week, but in general our school is really supportive and appreciative of our shortened halftime show each week and looks forward to what they’ve added each week as the season progresses. When we played this team the other band set up for their halftime show and our crowd was confused at first. They aren’t familiar with the military style of marching band. As they performed their half time show the crowd was pretty spellbound and mesmerized by the performance. It was something that was very different from the same show that they saw from us every week. They gave that band an incredible audience and applause and respect. Afterwards when our band performed there was applause and respect- but not as much as we are used to because people were still talking about the military style they had seen, and they knew we would be there with our show the next week again.
When I’m watching multiple shows over and over and over on a long day- the shows that have more memorable moments to me are the ones that tend to have layers of difficulty that if I look in a different section of the field each time I will find more “new” moments in the show to love.
Having had multiple years of multiple of my kids performing on the field I am used to following one section through a show one time and following another section through the show the next time I watch so I can see the individual performance of my kids. I then usually have to do the same watching the videos to see friends kids and my kids friends and their performances as I follow them through the show.
The shows (that I don’t have kids in- and friends in) that have enough moments that I want to watch it again to try and find them all… are the ones I love the most outside of my kids shows. (Because yes… I always love my own kids shows the most!)
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Post by cybrunette on Jan 26, 2023 19:24:43 GMT -6
I enjoy both styles (pre-2010 & post-2010). I see the competitive scene is still getting there in catching up to Broken Arrow & Tarpon Springs in production value with the current generation, but most bands are roughly there. Once show designers step their game up & really match their energy of production, I think that will really bring a new boost of general effect that we haven't experienced yet. The crowds are 'wowed' by 1 or 2 bands followed by a few performances that lose that energy until the next band that's able to bring a 'wow' factor. Another issue I see with a lot of top bands comes from their guard. Most top bands now a days have a World-Class guard that really elevates the experience & even if the band has somewhat of a hybrid style show like Avon or Carmel, their guards really brings the field to life . My biggest example would be Hebron; while they sound & march incredibly with some fun pieces of music, their show design is somewhat lackluster & their A-Class guard needs to be reworked to really bring out their potential of how cool the field could look with one of their shows.
Once all these competitive bands really hone it in, I believe BOA events will truly be in that 'next generation' spectacle to see & we'll also see where DCI takes us in the future with whatever evolution will occur with their marching.
As far as pre-2010 goes, I mean how can you not get pumped to rewatch a classic late 90's early 00's show.
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Post by marimba11 on Jan 27, 2023 12:38:42 GMT -6
I enjoy both styles (pre-2010 & post-2010). I see the competitive scene is still getting there in catching up to Broken Arrow & Tarpon Springs in production value with the current generation, but most bands are roughly there. Once show designers step their game up & really match their energy of production, I think that will really bring a new boost of general effect that we haven't experienced yet. The crowds are 'wowed' by 1 or 2 bands followed by a few performances that lose that energy until the next band that's able to bring a 'wow' factor. Another issue I see with a lot of top bands comes from their guard. Most top bands now a days have a World-Class guard that really elevates the experience & even if the band has somewhat of a hybrid style show like Avon or Carmel, their guards really brings the field to life . My biggest example would be Hebron; while they sound & march incredibly with some fun pieces of music, their show design is somewhat lackluster & their A-Class guard needs to be reworked to really bring out their potential of how cool the field could look with one of their shows. Once all these competitive bands really hone it in, I believe BOA events will truly be in that 'next generation' spectacle to see & we'll also see where DCI takes us in the future with whatever evolution will occur with their marching. As far as pre-2010 goes, I mean how can you not get pumped to rewatch a classic late 90's early 00's show. I agree on Hebron. They could step it up a bit in the guard department but honestly the guard is pretty decent IMO. Same with Flower Mound/ Marcus. Of course TWHS is the current front runner in TX. I am not a guard expert to know if the TX guards are worse than Avon/ Carmel when it comes to achievement, but that certainly seems to be the case when it comes to Grand Nationals scoring. Or maybe it is just because those guards are more front and center and integrated vs TX ones aren't as in your face as A or C. Honestly seems to come down to the panel. Vandegrift semis vs- finals in the vis caption at GN in 2019 is a good example.
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