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Post by ruprecht on May 12, 2023 7:40:10 GMT -6
The UIL Marching Band Rules Advisory Committee met just this week to consider rule change proposals. One of which: Proposal to allow amplification of ensembles of any size using open microphones
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Post by OldSchoolTrumpet on May 12, 2023 8:23:09 GMT -6
I'm going to remain true to my username. There shouldn't be any microphones at all, dagnabbit! No electronics! No pit! If ya can't carry it you can't play it! And quit with that dancing! And yer fancy costumes!
It should be trumpets playing Chuck Mangione tunes fff for eight minutes, with the woodwinds buried beneath a wall of brass! Like band was intended to be!
I kid. Or...do I?
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Post by hewhowaits on May 12, 2023 8:45:42 GMT -6
I'm going to remain true to my username. There shouldn't be any microphones at all, dagnabbit! No electronics! No pit! If ya can't carry it you can't play it! And quit with that dancing! And yer fancy costumes! It should be trumpets playing Chuck Mangione tunes fff for eight minutes, with the woodwinds buried beneath a wall of brass! Like band was intended to be! I kid. Or...do I? Most of the Mangione should be played by flugelhorns.
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Post by indyfan921 on May 12, 2023 11:14:18 GMT -6
This statement is so vague, its killing me.
Are front ensembles able to be mic'd?? Each individual instrument is indeed mic'd in that situation, and typically for most of the show, however, this would also represent the entire ensemble sound as all instruments that cannot be heard purely acoustically are almost always mic'd to balance things out.
Shotgun mic's? Are these allowed? What about the use of synth sounds that follow the winds? What are the specific rules?
This statement is a big bombshell, but it is just so vague. At the moment, it only really clarifies that certain individual players cannot be mic'd over the whole section, unless there is a solo section in the show.
I just wish BOA gave some more clarification.
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Post by jeremiah on May 14, 2023 10:13:41 GMT -6
Yeah, I think this is pretty silly. Bands have always been strategic about making sure you only hear the good players through strategically staging individuals toward the front of forms. When shotgun mics were introduced, staging became an even more important way to ensure only the best players are being amplified, since most shotgun mics are, by design, highly directional. I'd also suggest the groups who design their shows around frequent solo and ensemble moments on front sideline stages while most of the ensemble only plays a couple of minutes of the show are doing the same thing.
Suggesting that all these other strategies that have been used for decades are totally fine, but it's the new idea of individual wireless mics that are ruining the educational component is ridiculous.
To me it reads that some individuals are happy with how they evolved the activity, but now that they're old and new young folks are coming up with better ideas, they suddenly don't want the activity to evolve any further.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on May 14, 2023 11:36:43 GMT -6
Total subjective opinion:
Texas - 1 Midwest -0
😎
Maybe this over simplistic but maybe BOA new rules might be towards individual directors that select a few high tier for non electronic members they choose to mic to cover the spread? I’m probably wrong but watching historic Midwest music ensemble performances it is obvious to me that these programs cannot perform or sustain difficult books like Texas Elites, BA or TS since the 90’’s!
Yes I disagree with above digs against FM and TS bit yet I do feel they need to scale back slightly. My said mentioned opinion should not discount the fact that Indiana does lack overall full ensemble sounds (intonation) on the field and maybe this rule finally pushes Indiana to focus on overall ME and not just design metrics?.
Select WGI level mic’s members don’t or can’t cover the music ensemble spread (maybe under BOA historically) but let finally be honest.
**** See well thought out Indiana aged sophist responses below 👇
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Post by marimba11 on May 14, 2023 12:35:32 GMT -6
Yeah, I think this has really muddied the waters more than anything. I guess they are saying no individual mics for players on the field period in ensemble moments. But how on earth will this be enforced? And yeah, is this really ruining the "educational component"?? Kinda hard to say tbh.
It can also come down to judging too... a super mic'd band during ensemble moments doesn't sound that good anyway, so that could easily be judge specific.
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Post by es203 on May 14, 2023 12:46:13 GMT -6
TBH Indiana does lack overall full ensemble sounds (intonation) on the field and maybe this rule finally pushes Indiana to focus on overall ME and not just design metrics?. oh boy here we go again
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Post by vidal28rdg on May 14, 2023 14:08:18 GMT -6
Yeah, I think this is pretty silly. Bands have always been strategic about making sure you only hear the good players through strategically staging individuals toward the front of forms. When shotgun mics were introduced, staging became an even more important way to ensure only the best players are being amplified, since most shotgun mics are, by design, highly directional. I'd also suggest the groups who design their shows around frequent solo and ensemble moments on front sideline stages while most of the ensemble only plays a couple of minutes of the show are doing the same thing. Suggesting that all these other strategies that have been used for decades are totally fine, but it's the new idea of individual wireless mics that are ruining the educational component is ridiculous. To me it reads that some individuals are happy with how they evolved the activity, but now that they're old and new young folks are coming up with better ideas, they suddenly don't want the activity to evolve any further. My take on wireless mics, never have had an issue with them when wanting to be more creative and implementing soloists into the show, into the form, etc.etc. I really don’t think any people should have much issue with this, and any complaint I’ve seen is either “BAN THEM!! They’re electronic failures waiting to happen!!” which is a risk directors are willing to take if they feel the soloists’ integration into the show boosts the effect and impact in their eyes. The other is where some ensembles, specifically the ones that really shouldn’t need to do this where they have the numbers, individually mic students with wireless mics of course over the full ensemble to cover parts, and I don’t think this should be the case. In the same vein, a soloist or soloists can of course be mic’d in full ensemble moments as well, there are distinctions that the recommendations do need to outline. I’d also say that even with the measures bands take in “filling out the front of forms with the best players” you still most definitely will hear stick outs, especially in the brass, especially when judges have more trained ears than the average listener. You can see how that would be reflected in scores still with boa in their “ensemble” and “individual” captions. And in contests where there are more categories and captions for WW, Brass, and Percussion. If you really wanted to twist and force the hands of groups, “content” and “achievement” subcaptions to the scoring rubric can always be implemented, if the notion of bands “cheating” more and more to satisfy those people’s point of view and concerns of bands getting away with being rewarded for doing less? Just a thought to throw out
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Post by philodemus on May 14, 2023 15:41:09 GMT -6
Indiana does lack overall full ensemble sounds (intonation) on the field and maybe this rule finally pushes Indiana to focus on overall ME and not just design metrics? So, hey, not from Texas or Indiana, no dog in this fight. But, here's what this statement makes me wonder. Suppose for just a second that you're correct, i.e., Indiana focuses more on design and Texas more on playing well. For the sake of discussion, let's just take that as granted, though I'm sure for many it isn't granted at all. If Texas finds it annoying to be beaten by Indiana bands that do not play as well due to superior design, what is to stop Texas from simply, you know... designing better?
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on May 14, 2023 16:43:39 GMT -6
Indiana does lack overall full ensemble sounds (intonation) on the field and maybe this rule finally pushes Indiana to focus on overall ME and not just design metrics? So, hey, not from Texas or Indiana, no dog in this fight. But, here's what this statement makes me wonder. Suppose for just a second that you're correct, i.e., Indiana focuses more on design and Texas more on playing well. For the sake of discussion, let's just take that as granted, though I'm sure for many it isn't granted at all. If Texas finds it annoying to be beaten by Indiana bands that do not play as well due to superior design, what is to stop Texas from simply, you know... designing better? I understand your position but I disagree. Honest Midwest fans know that the music standard is and has been in Texas since the 2000’s! Maybe all Texas programs need is to have access to “BOA”approved Gaines type designs. I say this In love as I am a Gaines fan when he was a Texan. Still Am btw. Newer fan design philosophy that only discounts newer nuanced designers only isolates Indiana from catching up to the overall (marching and playing) performances that we see coming from the other elites around the country. #gainesBackInTexas I remember those days 🤠❤️💪
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Post by vidal28rdg on May 14, 2023 21:56:41 GMT -6
Indiana does lack overall full ensemble sounds (intonation) on the field and maybe this rule finally pushes Indiana to focus on overall ME and not just design metrics? So, hey, not from Texas or Indiana, no dog in this fight. But, here's what this statement makes me wonder. Suppose for just a second that you're correct, i.e., Indiana focuses more on design and Texas more on playing well. For the sake of discussion, let's just take that as granted, though I'm sure for many it isn't granted at all. If Texas finds it annoying to be beaten by Indiana bands that do not play as well due to superior design, what is to stop Texas from simply, you know... designing better? I had a response several long paragraphs long that I was looking forward to post, but the site crashed before I could post it, so bummed out😂 The TL;dr of it all is that there is so much that you could go into to say that Texas does what it does and other regions do what they do and have gotten where they are for various reasons, but that there is potential for there to be more design elements that are seen in marching band to be desirable, to implemented more in the state. Importantly also to say that even if Texas had the best of both worlds, the saying of “Rome wasn’t built in a day” would ring true. All of the elite bands and groups everywhere had to build up to the culture of excellence that they have and the various forms and styles that manifested from them. Taking a lot of experience, expertise, buy-in from students, and even trial-and-error. It’s a process for everyone.
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Post by Allohak on May 15, 2023 5:17:37 GMT -6
Total subjective opinion: Texas - 1 Midwest -0 😎 Maybe this over simplistic but maybe BOA new rules might be towards individual directors that select a few high tier for non electronic members they choose to mic to cover the spread? I’m probably wrong but watching historic Midwest music ensemble performances it is obvious to me that these programs cannot perform or sustain difficult books like Texas Elites, BA or TS since the 90’’s! Yes I disagree with above digs against FM and TS bit yet I do feel they need to scale back slightly. My said mentioned opinion should not discount the fact that Indiana does lack overall full ensemble sounds (intonation) on the field and maybe this rule finally pushes Indiana to focus on overall ME and not just design metrics?. Select WGI level mic’s members don’t or can’t cover the music ensemble spread (maybe under BOA historically) but let finally be honest. **** See well thought out Indiana aged sophist responses below 👇 Sorry to burst your bubble, but it isn't Midwestern groups who will be most affected by this.
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Post by LeanderMomma on May 15, 2023 5:28:24 GMT -6
Why am I suddenly cringing again?
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Post by hewhowaits on May 15, 2023 5:51:15 GMT -6
If Texas finds it annoying to be beaten by Indiana bands that do not play as well due to superior design, what is to stop Texas from simply, you know... designing better? UIL
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Post by philodemus on May 15, 2023 6:58:03 GMT -6
If Texas finds it annoying to be beaten by Indiana bands that do not play as well due to superior design, what is to stop Texas from simply, you know... designing better? UIL Please elaborate?
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Post by paddy on May 15, 2023 6:59:33 GMT -6
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Post by vidal28rdg on May 15, 2023 7:20:17 GMT -6
UIL, theoretically, doesn’t limit what a band could do on the field, design-wise, bands can do what they want, aside from when bands are performing in contests of said circuit and they have to adhere to certain performance regulations during that performance. It’s what UIL, the governing body for all public schools in Texas does, in restricting rehearsal time for visual fundies in the summer before August…1st I believe, to 10 hours TOTAL(Apparently there were recent proposals made to increase that allowed instructional time to 15 hours total, but nothing has come of that yet). If bands want to do more difficult, visually demanding shows they have less time to get their students up to speed on those fundamental skills before band camp, they have all the time in the world they so choose to use during that time before school starts for band camp! But then, the regulations come back in allowing strictly 8 hours or less of rehearsal during the school week, with a few delineations put out for rehearsal time for game days and contest days. Those are the main ways that one could say UIL limits the ability and pressures directors to make certain sacrifices in design in deciding what to use budget their rehearsal time with doing. Usually that is more so focusing on making the band sound good, as there aren’t restrictions placed on learning music by UIL, during the summer.
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Post by allthingschaotic on May 15, 2023 17:14:00 GMT -6
The eight-minute limit that UIL has on shows is pretty restrictive. Bands can get around this restriction by starting the show early but that would mean less time to set up. (I believe the time limit isn't enforced at state finals but I'm not too sure...) Additionally, UIL pretty much ignores color guard and focuses on the visual and musical proficiency of the marchers. A simpler but cleaner show would be rewarded more than a more challenging but dirtier show. I'm not sure how much of an issue overall in the Texas band world, but focusing too much on UIL contests appears to cause some directors to be more cautious in their approach to show design. (I feel like this is prevalent in UIL class 5A.)
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Post by homerchap on May 16, 2023 10:08:44 GMT -6
UIL, theoretically, doesn’t limit what a band could do on the field, design-wise, bands can do what they want, aside from when bands are performing in contests of said circuit and they have to adhere to certain performance regulations during that performance. It’s what UIL, the governing body for all public schools in Texas does, in restricting rehearsal time for visual fundies in the summer before August…1st I believe, to 10 hours TOTAL(Apparently there were recent proposals made to increase that allowed instructional time to 15 hours total, but nothing has come of that yet). If bands want to do more difficult, visually demanding shows they have less time to get their students up to speed on those fundamental skills before band camp, they have all the time in the world they so choose to use during that time before school starts for band camp! But then, the regulations come back in allowing strictly 8 hours or less of rehearsal during the school week, with a few delineations put out for rehearsal time for game days and contest days. Those are the main ways that one could say UIL limits the ability and pressures directors to make certain sacrifices in design in deciding what to use budget their rehearsal time with doing. Usually that is more so focusing on making the band sound good, as there aren’t restrictions placed on learning music by UIL, during the summer. And the school district my kid is in starts classes on August 9, so we barely get a week of real summer band. I believe that until September 1, you aren't restricted to the 8 hours a week of practice, so we do have some on Saturdays to make up for a shortened summer band. We also have a Fall Break week at the beginning of October that allows us to not have to adhere to the 8 hour rule.
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Post by vidal28rdg on May 16, 2023 11:17:36 GMT -6
UIL, theoretically, doesn’t limit what a band could do on the field, design-wise, bands can do what they want, aside from when bands are performing in contests of said circuit and they have to adhere to certain performance regulations during that performance. It’s what UIL, the governing body for all public schools in Texas does, in restricting rehearsal time for visual fundies in the summer before August…1st I believe, to 10 hours TOTAL(Apparently there were recent proposals made to increase that allowed instructional time to 15 hours total, but nothing has come of that yet). If bands want to do more difficult, visually demanding shows they have less time to get their students up to speed on those fundamental skills before band camp, they have all the time in the world they so choose to use during that time before school starts for band camp! But then, the regulations come back in allowing strictly 8 hours or less of rehearsal during the school week, with a few delineations put out for rehearsal time for game days and contest days. Those are the main ways that one could say UIL limits the ability and pressures directors to make certain sacrifices in design in deciding what to use budget their rehearsal time with doing. Usually that is more so focusing on making the band sound good, as there aren’t restrictions placed on learning music by UIL, during the summer. And the school district my kid is in starts classes on August 9, so we barely get a week of real summer band. I believe that until September 1, you aren't restricted to the 8 hours a week of practice, so we do have some on Saturdays to make up for a shortened summer band. We also have a Fall Break week at the beginning of October that allows us to not have to adhere to the 8 hour rule. a quirky school schedule your program has to deal with! It’s interesting to see how that’s worked around to make the best out of that time. A mini band camp in the school year during October actually might sound fun!!
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Post by jmike16 on May 16, 2023 13:05:34 GMT -6
UIL, theoretically, doesn’t limit what a band could do on the field, design-wise, bands can do what they want, aside from when bands are performing in contests of said circuit and they have to adhere to certain performance regulations during that performance. It’s what UIL, the governing body for all public schools in Texas does, in restricting rehearsal time for visual fundies in the summer before August…1st I believe, to 10 hours TOTAL(Apparently there were recent proposals made to increase that allowed instructional time to 15 hours total, but nothing has come of that yet). If bands want to do more difficult, visually demanding shows they have less time to get their students up to speed on those fundamental skills before band camp, they have all the time in the world they so choose to use during that time before school starts for band camp! But then, the regulations come back in allowing strictly 8 hours or less of rehearsal during the school week, with a few delineations put out for rehearsal time for game days and contest days. Those are the main ways that one could say UIL limits the ability and pressures directors to make certain sacrifices in design in deciding what to use budget their rehearsal time with doing. Usually that is more so focusing on making the band sound good, as there aren’t restrictions placed on learning music by UIL, during the summer. And the school district my kid is in starts classes on August 9, so we barely get a week of real summer band. I believe that until September 1, you aren't restricted to the 8 hours a week of practice, so we do have some on Saturdays to make up for a shortened summer band. We also have a Fall Break week at the beginning of October that allows us to not have to adhere to the 8 hour rule. That is not as bad as Lumberton lol. They start their classes on August 3rd which is SUPER early. Battery and Guard starts their camp on July 10th and then the full band camp starts on the 24th.
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Post by dbalash on May 16, 2023 13:19:45 GMT -6
And the school district my kid is in starts classes on August 9, so we barely get a week of real summer band. I believe that until September 1, you aren't restricted to the 8 hours a week of practice, so we do have some on Saturdays to make up for a shortened summer band. We also have a Fall Break week at the beginning of October that allows us to not have to adhere to the 8 hour rule. That is not as bad as Lumberton lol. They start their classes on August 3rd which is SUPER early. Battery and Guard starts their camp on July 10th and then the full band camp starts on the 24th. And Avon starts July 27th.
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Post by jmike16 on May 16, 2023 14:10:08 GMT -6
That is not as bad as Lumberton lol. They start their classes on August 3rd which is SUPER early. Battery and Guard starts their camp on July 10th and then the full band camp starts on the 24th. And Avon starts July 27th. Dang! That is insane.
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Post by vidal28rdg on May 16, 2023 14:15:30 GMT -6
That is not as bad as Lumberton lol. They start their classes on August 3rd which is SUPER early. Battery and Guard starts their camp on July 10th and then the full band camp starts on the 24th. And Avon starts July 27th. So I’d imagine they’re made to start learning their show earlier out of necessity as well. Instead of having band camp in late July-mid august, it’s done all in July. I don’t know their schedule for certain but I figure that’s the way it’s done and how the timeline works. With everyone in Texas that does UIL not even being able to have more than three days of visual blocks before that 10-hour limit before august is reasonably reached, one could see why some programs have the flexibility and the leg up on groups on performing harder visual material, time is precious and valuable in that regard. I know for my school district in Texas, school didn’t start until the 21st of August or later, and I’ve seen in recent years that the dates for school starting have been pushed further back. I’ve seen that for my hometown district, school’s starting on the 16th now, I saw for Austin ISD they start on the 14th. I feel that UIL definitely needs to ease these restrictions on the visual learning side, especially with less and less time for band camp to actually be conducted properly in some cases that we’re hearing. Little addendum here: July and August are BLAZING HOT down here, as we see how bad it’s gotten for drum corps making their way down here at around the same time in their tour, they’ve had to take many precautions and they’re much more conditioned for it than the kids are. I would definitely stress doing as much of the possible granted extended time that UIL might give schools in the future for visual training be indoors, or at least in less intense hours of the day before august 1st. We know how brutal these last few summers have been!
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Post by ilikeguard on May 16, 2023 17:02:19 GMT -6
And Avon starts July 27th. Dang! That is insane. It's possible when you're in the frozen wasteland of Indianapolis
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on May 16, 2023 18:53:54 GMT -6
“Strong pro Indiana bias there is on this thread” You can and should be able to handle subjective opposition to the long standing Midwest Indiana BOA adjudication machine philosophy. This was intended to be just a conversation starter. Exchange of subjective ideas…..
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Post by philodemus on May 16, 2023 22:37:40 GMT -6
Wait, wait, wait... you people think starting in July is bizarrely early? Am I understanding this correctly?
This is very common, the norm even, in the not-so-frozen-tundra of Kentucky.
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Post by marimba11 on May 16, 2023 23:15:20 GMT -6
Wait, wait, wait... you people think starting in July is bizarrely early? Am I understanding this correctly? This is very common, the norm even, in the not-so-frozen-tundra of Kentucky. Yeah! Our band was usually setting drill the last week of July at the latest. There aren’t rules for learning music before August right? Programs keep a lot of rehearsal schedules hush hush these days. But I think texas has figured out how to really maximize their time… that I think is not a question!
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Post by vidal28rdg on May 16, 2023 23:18:44 GMT -6
Wait, wait, wait... you people think starting in July is bizarrely early? Am I understanding this correctly? This is very common, the norm even, in the not-so-frozen-tundra of Kentucky. doing band camp in July for Texas bands participating in UIL would inherently violate the rules that the bands have to abide in learning marching/visual fundamentals by if you did even 3 days of 4 hour visual morning blocks, or if you’re doing one focused 3 hour visual block in a three-a-day camp for 4 days(quite a few block variations one can do, but anyways). A lot of texas bands, and from my past recent experience being in one myself, start band camp around the last week of July, and then another two weeks leading up to before school starts. I would just suggest if you aren’t aware of the timelines Texas bands are on and if they’re considered to start more later than what other regions do, look ahead and see what some of these bands’ band calendars look like at that time of year👀 see how many hours they do before august, what they’re used for and see what the hours they put in for band camp are. They’re widely available
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