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Post by thewho on May 16, 2019 14:23:29 GMT -6
A little while ago after marching season, a proposal was making rounds where ISSMA would split into 5 Open Classes, instead of the current 4 they have. 8 bands per class would advance to state finals instead of 10. This was crafted in order to attempt to engage more bands from Scholastic, as it was thought some of the bands (especially Scholastic Large) were intentionally avoiding Class A due to its competitiveness.
I explained the possible reasoning and why this would be okay theoretically at inbands, but found that this would necessitate a deeper explanation (along with a better format.... sorry, inbands). As such, I've went ahead and made this post to explain all the nuances in understanding why ISSMA did this, what effect it could have, and breakdowns based on this new classification. See incoming posts about this...
A minor (but important) part of this proposal was reducing the band size or adding restrictions to reduce amount of bands competing in Scholastic. For speculation's sake, I'm skipping over this as it's really not worth the time deciding which bands will move up or stay in Scholastic. There's essentially too many moving and unknown variables to fully decide on that.
WHY WOULD ISSMA DO THIS? (DISCLAIMER: I'm just giving the reasoning behind all this. I'm not arguing one way or the other.)
To begin, here's where all bands finished in Class A (state finals [numbered] and semi-state [ordered after 10.]) where the bubble bands were grouped together. In other words, those bubble bands could've made state finals on any other day: 1. Carmel 2. Avon 3. Homestead 4. Fishers 5. Castle 6. Center Grove ---------------------- 7. Plainfield 8. Carroll 9. Concord 10. Penn Lawrence Township Brownsburg Goshen Lake Central Ben Davis Franklin Central ------------------------ Whiteland Portage HSE Zionsville
(You can reason the top 6 or whatever, but those 6 were unanimously agreed as locks by the time semi-state weekend came around.)
If you count up the bands in the mid-tier, that's 10 bands fighting for a possible state finals spot. Some were fairly longshots (Franklin Central and Ben Davis), but they were in there regardless. This is not to mention some terrific bands got knocked out at the southern regional that probably had a clear shot at semi-state at the northern regional- Decatur Central, Floyd Central, and Columbus North. I have never seen Class A being any more fierce or competitive than this past year.
Competitiveness has been largely lopsided towards Class A in general. This is not to discount the massive improvements we've seen from bands over the last 10 years, but honestly, that is an extremely, extremely difficult group of bands to break through for one of the 4 spots. I'm thinking there is a (very) likely chance that some of the lower Class A programs would invest in trying to improve their position at some point in the future (Noblesville, Westfield, HSE, etc.). If that's the case, the depth would go as deep as possibly 18-19 bands that could make finals (whew!!!).
This is pretty cool in my book, but I wouldn't be surprised if ISSMA wanted to deflate the competitiveness a bit to encourage some of the Scholastic bands back into Open A. Warren Central and Jefferson jump out as two immediate names that would be candidates to bring back into Open. People on all levels REALLY don't like bands dropping down to Scholastic without a noticeable reason.
There's also this that I've noticed:
CLASS B PROMOTIONS AS A MINOR REASON By the virtue of the system, being a Class A finalist matters more in prestige than in Class B because ya know- bigger school size = more potential to achieve better results by pool of students and resources. However, 10 years ago, Class B was not that far behind Class A- that is, it is not impossible to think that several Class B bands could've made Class A finals.
To clarify, Class B used to be a decade-long fight between 4 historic powerhouses: Greenwood, Northview, Jasper, and Concord. There were more that rose to the occasion over the years like Goshen, Floyd Central, Plainfield and Greenfield-Central, but those 4 were the bar every Class B band aimed for. If you could or grab a top 4 finish between them all, you were assuredly strong enough to compete in Class A, simply because those 4 would've made extremely convincing arguments for being a Class A state finalist. This has changed since then due to 1. the regression of Northview and Jasper and 2. promotions to Class A (Concord, Goshen, Floyd Central, Plainfield), but I just wanted to give some additional context for perhaps the underlying reason why this was proposed.
Here's the competitive landscape back in Class B 2012 along with the bubble bands (I don't have placements for those.. I'm going off my head then):
1. Jasper
2. Goshen
3. Greenwood
4. Northview
5. Concord
6. Northridge
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7. Floyd Central
8. Munster
9. Plainfield
10. North Side
DeKalb
Elkhart Central
Evansville North
F.J. Reitz
New Castle
Now here's the current landscape in Class B along with bubble bands (no placements):
1. Greenwood
2. Greenfield-Central
3. Northview
4. Munster
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5. Jasper
6. North Side
7. Bloomington North
8. Ev. North
9. Pendleton Heights
10. Northridge
Beech Grove
DeKalb
Plymouth
East Noble
Ev. Harrison
If you notice- there's a rotation of 5 bands on the outside, but 2 more spots in 2018. I understand that in 2018, there were several locks (Jasper, North Side, Ev. North), but the quality of the shows weren't that far ahead of the pool, which is why I grouped those with the rest. That is, it could've been possible that the order could be changed on another day. In 2012, it was clearly those 6 that would advance and none of the bands below would've beaten them. This is the story of 2010-2014 before promotions carried a majority of those bands out of Class B.
Let me be clear that I think the integrity of Class B is nowhere near being damaged. However, the competitiveness and drive hasn't quite been there in the last years. The thing that pretty much brought this on was basically ripping out the mid-tier competition by promotion to Class A (Concord, Plainfield, Goshen, Floyd Central..... maybe Decatur Central to a 2017 extent).
There's a reason why this is titled "minor". It really should not be any major reason for changing the system, especially when Class A bands are expected to draw from a much larger pool of resources and students in comparison to B. However, it could be one of the few incrementing factors to lobby for change. It may not be a major sticking point, but certainly one that would hang in the back of one's mind.
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Post by 70sguardchick on May 16, 2019 14:29:58 GMT -6
Very Interesting - IF this should happen, when would ISSMA announce this?
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Post by thewho on May 16, 2019 14:45:53 GMT -6
Very Interesting - IF this should happen, when would ISSMA announce this? It should be after today, as they met for their annual spring meeting. In fact... Beech Grove announced they'd be in Open C next year. Don't take this as if ISSMA is really going to 5-class, as Beech Grove was on the border of C-B, 3 in towards B. Keep an eye out whether Ev. Central or Marian is moving down- those two would be key to indicating ISSMA would indeed move to 5-class.
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Post by OldSchoolTrumpet on May 16, 2019 15:28:14 GMT -6
A little while ago after marching season, a proposal was making rounds where ISSMA would split into 5 Open Classes, instead of the current 4 they have. 8 bands per class would advance to state finals instead of 10. This was crafted in order to attempt to engage more bands from Scholastic, as it was thought some of the bands (especially Scholastic Large) were intentionally avoiding Class A due to its competitiveness.------------------------------------------------ I don't see how this would entice large school Scholastic groups to re-join open class. There would still be 40 State Finalists, and none of them would be any of the schools currently hiding in Scholastic Class. You'll squeeze out a couple of smaller schools from finals, add a couple of mid-sized schools, create another champion, but it'll still be the usual suspects in Finals, just classed a bit differently. I'd consider it a pointless exercise in just creating another "winner."
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Post by thewho on May 18, 2019 10:41:49 GMT -6
HOW DID I CREATE THE NEW CLASSES?
I totaled the amount of Open Class bands and divided that into 5 classes with the best of my ability. I counted 102 bands (Lawrence Central and North as Township are accounted for), so I attempted a total amount of 20 bands per class with a deviation no more than 2 in either direction (18-22).
For clarity, I classified by A-B-C-D-E, where A is the largest and E is the smallest.
The class breakdown goes as such: Class E: 21 Class D: 20 Class C: 20 Class B: 20 Class A: 21
Here's where I dictated the borders (smallest to largest): Alexandria-Monroe (E) Triton Central (E) Bremen (E) Mater Dei (D) -------------------------- North Harrison (D) Concordia Lutheran (D) Vincennes Lincoln (D) Ev. Bosse (D) Edgewood (C) --------------------------- Plymouth (C) Jasper (C) DeKalb (C) *New Palestine (B) --------------------------- Floyd Central (B) Decatur Central (B) Whiteland (A) **Castle (A)
*I never changed New Pal's class through the whole process. I only included New Pal for context.
**I never changed Castle's class through the whole process. I only included Castle for context.
There's some interesting observations about this change. I've organized per class from top down. Any particular observations about a certain band are underlined.
CLASS A
-I always had a small issue with Class A being open to all above a certain limit. I understand this would make the most sense after limiting the other 3 classes, but this would result in schools of 3000+ competing against 1600-ish. Plainfield and Concord definitely buck this trend, but that means Decatur Central, Floyd Central, and Whiteland are basically punching with taped gloves. I know it means nothing relative to say, B vs. D and A vs. C, but that extra 500 students is a huge boon in terms of resources, money, parents, blahblah.
-With a strict 20-band-per-class limit, Plainfield and Concord are solidly in B. I do not have them being at any risk of moving up.
-Floyd Central, Decatur Central and Whiteland are at risk at either being in A or B. To balance numbers, I kept Whiteland in A.
-The next one up in line for demotion is Castle. However, I do not have Castle at any risk of moving down. (Also, to be fair, I don't feel like ISSMA thinks Castle needs a demotion.)
-Decatur Central was the key in determining how many bands are in Class A. I think most Hoosiers remember Decatur Central being in a perpetual flux between B and A- they received a LOT of promotions and demotions before Floyd Central got promoted. Unfortunately, Decatur Central would be in the same situation yet again. Floyd Central and Whiteland were at risk, but not as much as Decatur Central.
-Top 8 and any bubble bands remains virtually unchanged whatsoever. Plainfield (7th) leaving Class B would open a spot, but when none of the bubble bands (Carroll, Penn, Lawrence Township, Brownsburg, Goshen, Ben Davis, Lake Central, Franklin Central) move down, nothing changes. It's literally still 15 bands, with the same possible top and bubble bands in the top 8.
CLASS B -As stated before, Plainfield and Concord are solidly in B. I do not have them being at any risk of moving up.
-Plymouth, Jasper and DeKalb are at risk of moving down to C. To balance numbers, I moved them all down to C.
-Jasper probably shouldn't receive a demotion- however, Northview has flitted between B and C for the last few years, yet has continued to compete in Class B. I would imagine that Jasper would elect to do a similar thing. There is a lot more value in general to having a Class B title than a Class C title... especially when you've won it before.
-I counted 11 possible finalist bands for 8 spots with the loss of Plymouth, Jasper and DeKalb and the addition of Plainfield and Concord.
-The competition would still largely be reminiscent of the current Class B landscape. Greenwood, Greenfield-Central, Plainfield and Concord would be fighting for the title.
CLASS C -More than anything, the 5-class system would disrupt Class C the most, no question.
-As stated before, Plymouth, Jasper and DeKalb are at risk of moving down to C. To balance numbers, I moved them all down to C.
-North Harrison, Concordia Lutheran, Vincennes Lincoln, Ev. Bosse and Edgewood were at risk of moving down to D. To balance numbers, I kept Edgewood in C.
-One important thing to note is the addition of Northview into C under this system. Northview is solidly in C. I would assume that Northview would move back into B, but this thought did not occur to me until after I began writing this. As such, I assumed that Northview would compete in C. This was the primary reason for moving Jasper into C also.
-The competition would have a mix between Class B and C, where the top contenders would presumably be Northview, Jasper, Western and Edgewood.
-There might be some minor worries with the addition of Plymouth, DeKalb and Beech Grove pushing out some Class C finalists, but I think most Class C bands could hold their own against them. However.... one could never really count the possibility.
CLASS D -As stated before, North Harrison, Concordia Lutheran, Vincennes Lincoln, Ev. Bosse and Edgewood were at risk of moving down to D. To balance numbers, I kept Edgewood in C.
-Alexandria-Monroe, Triton Central, Bremen and Mater Dei were at risk moving down to E. To balance numbers, I kept Mater Dei in D.
-The scene would be very similar to Class D, but wide open essentially. Forest Park and Springs Valley are not a part of D. There are no clear leaders.
CLASS E -As stated before, Alexandria-Monroe, Triton Central, Bremen and Mater Dei were at risk moving down to E. To balance numbers, I kept Mater Dei in D.
-The clear front-runners for E were Springs Valley and Forest Park. After that, the scene again would look similar to the current Class D.
-The important thing in doing all of this, I found that the splits would largely affect Class D. The spectrum of competing bands in Indiana is largely biased towards the smaller-sized school. That is, there is a larger amount of smaller schools (D, C) than there are larger (B, A). Any change in the system would adversely affect the smaller schools than the larger.
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Post by thewho on May 18, 2019 10:50:17 GMT -6
CLASS A BANDS (21) Avon Ben Davis Brownsburg Carmel Carroll Castle Center Grove Columbus North Fishers Franklin Central Goshen Hamilton Southeastern Homestead Jeffersonville Lake Central Lawrence Township Penn Pike Portage Whiteland Zionsville
State Contenders (15) Avon Carmel ------------------------ Homestead ------------------------ Castle Center Grove Fishers ------------------------ Brownsburg Carroll Goshen Lawrence Township ------------------------ Penn Ben Davis Lake Central ------------------------ Columbus North Franklin Central
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Post by thewho on May 18, 2019 10:54:55 GMT -6
CLASS B BANDS (20) Bloomington North Concord Decatur Central East Central East Noble Elkhart Central Elkhart Memorial F.J. Reitz Floyd Central Franklin Community Greenfield‐Central Greenwood Huntington North Munster New Palestine Ev. North North Side Northridge Pendleton Heights Plainfield
STATE CONTENDERS (14) Concord Greenwood Plainfield ------------------------ Decatur Central Floyd Central Greenfield‐Central Munster ------------------------ Bloomington North East Noble New Palestine Ev. North North Side Northridge Pendleton Heights
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Post by thewho on May 18, 2019 11:01:09 GMT -6
CLASS C BANDS (20) Angola Beech Grove Boonville Ev. Central DeKalb Edgewood Jasper High School Leo Marion New Prairie North Wood Northview Norwell Owen Valley Plymouth Scottsburg Silver Creek Twin Lakes Wawasee Western
STATE CONTENDERS (14) Beech Grove Edgewood Northview Jasper Western ------------------------ DeKalb NorthWood Plymouth ------------------------ Angola Boonville Norwell Scottsburg Twin Lakes Owen Valley
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Post by thewho on May 18, 2019 11:06:05 GMT -6
CLASS D BANDS (20) Ev. Bosse Benton Central Concordia Lutheran Fairfield Garrett Indian Creek Jimtown John Glenn Knox Vincennes Lincoln Maconaquah Mater Dei Monrovia Mount Vernon North Harrison Northwestern Princeton Southridge Sullivan Woodlan
STATE CONTENDERS (9) Concordia Lutheran Fairfield Vincennes Lincoln Northwestern ----------------------------- Mater Dei Monrovia ----------------------------- Knox Southridge Woodlan
*I'm not sure of this list at all. I'm pretty sure more could be added, but I'm not aware of which ones potentially.
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Post by thewho on May 18, 2019 11:09:49 GMT -6
CLASS E BANDS (21) Adams Central Alexandria‐Monroe Bremen Senior Clay City Cloverdale Crawford County Eastside Elwood Forest Park LaVille Lewis Cass North Vermillion Orleans Paoli Rising Sun Springs Valley Taylor Tell City Tri Central Triton Central
STATE CONTENDERS (9) Forest Park Lewis Cass Springs Valley ------------------------ Paoli ------------------------ Adams Central Clay City Orleans Tell City Triton Central
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Post by thewho on May 18, 2019 11:23:40 GMT -6
This post isn't official, FYI. It doesn't reflect any changes ISSMA made for 2019.
I just wanted to revisit this thread and get all the stuff down while I had time to do so. A little while ago after marching season, a proposal was making rounds where ISSMA would split into 5 Open Classes, instead of the current 4 they have. 8 bands per class would advance to state finals instead of 10. This was crafted in order to attempt to engage more bands from Scholastic, as it was thought some of the bands (especially Scholastic Large) were intentionally avoiding Class A due to its competitiveness.------------------------------------------------ I don't see how this would entice large school Scholastic groups to re-join open class. There would still be 40 State Finalists, and none of them would be any of the schools currently hiding in Scholastic Class. You'll squeeze out a couple of smaller schools from finals, add a couple of mid-sized schools, create another champion, but it'll still be the usual suspects in Finals, just classed a bit differently. I'd consider it a pointless exercise in just creating another "winner." The thought initially I was going for was that enough of the Class A bands would be taken away from A to at least decrease the number of bands fighting for state finals spot in A, especially when considering A had Concord and Plainfield (both on the smaller side of things). There'd still be 40 finalists, but a solution that would at least reflect the school-size spectrum in Indiana more accurately. Basically, it does.... just the fact that Indiana has a LOT of small schools and not as many big ones competing in Open. The powerhouses all had rather big school sizes. As a consequence, they were very safely in A and I couldn't find any reasonable way to demote them without looking like a loon (Castle competing against Greenwood in B? Hah!). Furthermore, it's essentially the same set of bands fighting for 8 spots instead. Yikes... This might be worth revisiting 10 years later when the ISSMA scene will probably change a bit, but for right now, it's an awful idea backed up by evidence. In the end, I think the best way to encourage Scholastic bands to go back to Open is tighten up the restrictions even further. Call it... "forceful" encouragement.
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Post by OldSchoolTrumpet on May 18, 2019 12:03:16 GMT -6
CLASS A BANDS (21) Avon Ben Davis Brownsburg Carmel Carroll Castle Center Grove Columbus North Fishers Franklin Central Goshen Hamilton Southeastern Homestead Jeffersonville Lake Central Lawrence Township Penn Pike Portage Whiteland Zionsville
State Contenders (15) Avon Carmel ------------------------ Homestead ------------------------ Castle Center Grove Fishers ------------------------ Brownsburg Carroll Goshen Lawrence Township ------------------------ Penn Ben Davis Lake Central ------------------------ Columbus North Franklin Central ---------------------------------------------------------------This seems like a good enough place to ask this, since it's Indiana and all, but what would you think about Fishers finally taking the step over Homestead? They took a few captions here and there last season and if their visual program ever catches up to their music, watch out. Size wise I think they're now larger than Homestead as well. I think its inevitable. This year?
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Post by thewho on May 18, 2019 12:15:28 GMT -6
CLASS A BANDS (21) Avon Ben Davis Brownsburg Carmel Carroll Castle Center Grove Columbus North Fishers Franklin Central Goshen Hamilton Southeastern Homestead Jeffersonville Lake Central Lawrence Township Penn Pike Portage Whiteland Zionsville
State Contenders (15) Avon Carmel ------------------------ Homestead ------------------------ Castle Center Grove Fishers ------------------------ Brownsburg Carroll Goshen Lawrence Township ------------------------ Penn Ben Davis Lake Central ------------------------ Columbus North Franklin Central ---------------------------------------------------------------This seems like a good enough place to ask this, since it's Indiana and all, but what would you think about Fishers finally taking the step over Homestead? They took a few captions here and there last season and if their visual program ever catches up to their music, watch out. Size wise I think they're now larger than Homestead as well. I think its inevitable. This year? I think Fishers will get there, but as everyone on this forums knows, I wasn't sold on Fishers last year. They're very close to getting the formula down, though. The design elements are there and are giving the proper GE boosts Fishers needs (13-16th in GE at Grand Nats). At this point, it's just a matter of having the kids executing which I think Fishers can nail it down this year (27th and 20th in Music and Visual Ind., respectively). I wouldn't be surprised if they get into Homestead's orbit this year, but not surpass- it'll be more like trailing with a possibility to catch up all season.
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Post by Jake W. on May 18, 2019 13:15:16 GMT -6
I don't know, I think Fishers is about to explode, and that nothing's going to stop that. Their winter guard just won WGI Open Class, which means they will join the ridiculously elite ranks of World Class winter guards next year. That's huge. And with that kind of design staff/teachers on the visual side of things, I don't see how that DOESN'T bleed over heavily into the fall side of things eventually. They've made ISSMA Concert Finals for a number of years in a row now, and looking at ISSMA organizational results from these past few months, it looks like they've got five (!!) well-performing concert bands; all received Gold ratings at their organizational event, with a band in Group IV, Group III, Group II, and their top TWO concert bands attending State Qualifications in Group I, the top group of course making it in to State Finals. That's a crazy deep concert program. Their winter percussion just won Concert World Class at WGI as well, officially making them the best concert group in the country this past season, although it doesn't look like they fielded a winter movement group this year.
Long story short --- they've got the ingredients to be the next big thing on the national scene. As to overtaking Homestead, I don't see it that way, but I do see Fishers joining the ranks of consistent Grand National Finalist. I also expect Homestead to remain in that tier for a long time as well. So...rising to Homestead's level I guess is what I expect to happen.
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Post by Allohak on May 18, 2019 13:30:58 GMT -6
I tend to agree with Jake here - Fishers has all the ingredients, they just need a fall season where everything comes together really well to secure their place among the perennial finals conversation.
BUT - especially considering the explosion in growth and quality in Texas and how many top groups from all over are coming to Indy on a regular basis, it's going to end up being a change of perception of what that upper echelon is rather than who it is. We've seen many take big steps to get to such a high level without many from that level falling off that we could probably name close to 100 "finals worthy" (or, at the very least "semis lock") programs right now.
We're getting to a point where the competitive aspect of the activity is overshadowing the festival/celebration aspects. If it isn't time to change Grand Nationals yet, the time is coming very quickly. Prove your worth, receive an invitation, it's an honor just to be included in the field. Those groups who "come for the experience" can still exist, but as a separate entity.
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Post by Jake W. on May 18, 2019 14:26:14 GMT -6
We're getting to a point where the competitive aspect of the activity is overshadowing the festival/celebration aspects. If it isn't time to change Grand Nationals yet, the time is coming very quickly. Prove your worth, receive an invitation, it's an honor just to be included in the field. Those groups who "come for the experience" can still exist, but as a separate entity. I would love for that to happen, and I couldn't agree more that the competitive landscape is certainly exploding across the country. I'm getting a little tired of seeing 15+ Ohio bands on the GN lists every year that won't top a 65.00.
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Post by drumcorpsiscool on May 29, 2019 21:55:17 GMT -6
We're getting to a point where the competitive aspect of the activity is overshadowing the festival/celebration aspects. If it isn't time to change Grand Nationals yet, the time is coming very quickly. Prove your worth, receive an invitation, it's an honor just to be included in the field. Those groups who "come for the experience" can still exist, but as a separate entity. +1 to this 100000% the over saturation in GN is becoming overwhelming and I think it should come down to the top 20 groups and obviously successful BOA groups who don't compete in their own. Cutting that down would allow for not ridiculous days fro kids and more of an exclusivity and pride for those who attend.
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Post by Marching Observer on May 30, 2019 7:05:14 GMT -6
But this will also never happen. While BOA is certainly a competition focused entity, it's primary mission as we've all heard Chuck, Dan, and many others say is to provide "Positively life changing experiences". This means allowing all bands from every walk of life to participate. Even at Grand Nationals. A band like Colony from Alaska would almost certainly have never been invited or accepted if we try to base it off of scores from other BOA events since that's impractical for them to attend one regularly. Or for bands with limited budgets to attend more than one. I completely agree and am totally guilty of complaining about large Ohio blocks that are, nicely put, non-competitive at Grand Nationals. But at the same time, I'm glad that they do have this opportunity to be able to perform in such an amazing venue. Lucas Oil Stadium and San Antonio are easily the best venues provided and why they are the most well attended (both with the number of bands and parents in the stands) competitions. If you were to change those locations to the largest HS in the SA area (I don't know who that would be but I'm sure one of the Texas people could), it wouldn't nearly be as well attended even if it were to remain a super regional. Having attended SA two years now, I can tell you that even they have their fair share of questionably competitive groups attend. Which, I know, it's hard to grasp that not all Texas bands are the bee's-knee's. However, even they get a chance to shine and perform which ultimately I think is a good thing. And if you don't like it, well, stand up, stretch, go for a walk and check out the booths, stand in a concession line for 30 minutes waiting to order (we've all been there amirite haha), and then come back for those you do get excited about. In the end, this activity is for everyone from everywhere.
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