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Post by hewhowaits on May 21, 2019 5:06:08 GMT -6
Marching Observer: Here's the list which AMAZINGLY they don't hide behind a password lock. Ain't that the truth. Everything of note on the ISSMA site is locked down except this. It's okay to know numbers when it comes to school size, just not scores!
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Post by yayband914 on Jun 17, 2019 2:21:07 GMT -6
Could Norton possibly be AA this year? Not sure of their previous enrollment size, but they are at 831 according to U.S. News. Theoretically, if grades are about equal, that would put grades 10-12 and just over 600. They certainly are right on the edge either way!
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Post by paddy on Jun 17, 2019 7:35:41 GMT -6
Norton (according to the Ohio Dept of Education) was at 654 last year and is projected to be at 634 in 2019-20.
After looking at enrollment numbers multiple times for various schools (admittedly primarily in Indiana) I am not sure many people on the edge are being wholly truthful.
Lots of Bands that seem to be in AA or AAA based on publicly available numbers competing in the class below.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Jun 17, 2019 8:23:00 GMT -6
Looking at school size I will point out an interesting aspect about Plymouth-Canton Educational Park. PCEP actually consists of three high schools; Canton, Salem and Plymouth. These three schools are all in the same school district and located on the same campus (which was once called Centennial Park). Each of these high schools has their own sports teams. However, they share the same performing arts department which includes the marching band. Each one of these high schools has a total enrollment (9th-12th grade) of around 2,000 students. That means there are around 6,000 students that the marching band has to select from. Over several decades, Michigan has made a lot of cuts to school funding; in recent years trying to direct more funding to Detroit Schools and the expansion of the Charter School programs (which takes student away from the public schools) have been a big factor in this. So PCEP has become heavily funded by parents and local fundraising activities.
A Michigan school that has been growing steadily is Rockford (outside of Grand Rapids). Rockford's high school is just 10th-12th grade; they have a separate school for the freshman. The marching band consists of 9th through 12th grade. If current demographics hold, Rockford will continue to grow.
The Walled Lake School district has historically been one of Michigan's better funded schools (the community pays for this in their taxes). Walled Lake has three high schools; Western, Central and Northern. Each school has their own marching band with Central being the only one that is highly competitive and can compete at the BOA level. WLC is Class AAA in BOA. While the school district has been steadily growing, they are running out of room for new builds in the central portion of the district. So I don't see WLC jumping class. It would be interesting if the three Walled Lake high schools combined their band program. These three schools probably have well over 4000 students. Logistically, it may be tough to have a combined marching band as the district is spread out and has a lot of traffic congestion. An interesting thought though.
The Jenison school district does not have much buildable land. Much of it is also older suburban areas. So I don't see Jenison growing much.
The Reeths-Puffer district has buildable land. I just don't see much growth taking place in the Muskegon area any time soon. For the size of the community, Muskegon as several high schools. Should school closures/mergers happen some day who knows, RP may be able to get larger.
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Post by dallasman on Jun 17, 2019 11:41:50 GMT -6
Looking at school size I will point out an interesting aspect about Plymouth-Canton Educational Park. PCEP actually consists of three high schools; Canton, Salem and Plymouth. These three schools are all in the same school district and located on the same campus (which was once called Centennial Park). Each of these high schools has their own sports teams. However, they share the same performing arts department which includes the marching band. Each one of these high schools has a total enrollment (9th-12th grade) of around 2,000 students. That means there are around 6,000 students that the marching band has to select from. Over several decades, Michigan has made a lot of cuts to school funding; in recent years trying to direct more funding to Detroit Schools and the expansion of the Charter School programs (which takes student away from the public schools) have been a big factor in this. So PCEP has become heavily funded by parents and local fundraising activities. A Michigan school that has been growing steadily is Rockford (outside of Grand Rapids). Rockford's high school is just 10th-12th grade; they have a separate school for the freshman. The marching band consists of 9th through 12th grade. If current demographics hold, Rockford will continue to grow. The Walled Lake School district has historically been one of Michigan's better funded schools (the community pays for this in their taxes). Walled Lake has three high schools; Western, Central and Northern. Each school has their own marching band with Central being the only one that is highly competitive and can compete at the BOA level. WLC is Class AAA in BOA. While the school district has been steadily growing, they are running out of room for new builds in the central portion of the district. So I don't see WLC jumping class. It would be interesting if the three Walled Lake high schools combined their band program. These three schools probably have well over 4000 students. Logistically, it may be tough to have a combined marching band as the district is spread out and has a lot of traffic congestion. An interesting thought though. The Jenison school district does not have much buildable land. Much of it is also older suburban areas. So I don't see Jenison growing much. The Reeths-Puffer district has buildable land. I just don't see much growth taking place in the Muskegon area any time soon. For the size of the community, Muskegon as several high schools. Should school closures/mergers happen some day who knows, RP may be able to get larger. ------------------------ Hello, board. I think creating performing ensembles out of schools who have their own sports teams and campuses represents an unfair and huge advantage that an increasing amount of schools are now using to become more competitive. I would like to see a separate class created for these schools and/or they should face a nominal penalty when competing. (+/- 2.5 points). BOA has done a poor job of policing this by largely ignoring it. Carmel may have a large student body, but that's fine because they are not combining schools. PCEP should have never been allowed to compete with others as three high schools to begin with. You see it now with Lincoln-Way (IL). Three high schools with different identities should not be able to compete against single high school bands without a competitive balance equation.
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Post by thewho on Jun 17, 2019 12:17:21 GMT -6
Looking at school size I will point out an interesting aspect about Plymouth-Canton Educational Park. PCEP actually consists of three high schools; Canton, Salem and Plymouth. These three schools are all in the same school district and located on the same campus (which was once called Centennial Park). Each of these high schools has their own sports teams. However, they share the same performing arts department which includes the marching band. Each one of these high schools has a total enrollment (9th-12th grade) of around 2,000 students. That means there are around 6,000 students that the marching band has to select from. Over several decades, Michigan has made a lot of cuts to school funding; in recent years trying to direct more funding to Detroit Schools and the expansion of the Charter School programs (which takes student away from the public schools) have been a big factor in this. So PCEP has become heavily funded by parents and local fundraising activities. A Michigan school that has been growing steadily is Rockford (outside of Grand Rapids). Rockford's high school is just 10th-12th grade; they have a separate school for the freshman. The marching band consists of 9th through 12th grade. If current demographics hold, Rockford will continue to grow. The Walled Lake School district has historically been one of Michigan's better funded schools (the community pays for this in their taxes). Walled Lake has three high schools; Western, Central and Northern. Each school has their own marching band with Central being the only one that is highly competitive and can compete at the BOA level. WLC is Class AAA in BOA. While the school district has been steadily growing, they are running out of room for new builds in the central portion of the district. So I don't see WLC jumping class. It would be interesting if the three Walled Lake high schools combined their band program. These three schools probably have well over 4000 students. Logistically, it may be tough to have a combined marching band as the district is spread out and has a lot of traffic congestion. An interesting thought though. The Jenison school district does not have much buildable land. Much of it is also older suburban areas. So I don't see Jenison growing much. The Reeths-Puffer district has buildable land. I just don't see much growth taking place in the Muskegon area any time soon. For the size of the community, Muskegon as several high schools. Should school closures/mergers happen some day who knows, RP may be able to get larger. ------------------------ Hello, board. I think creating performing ensembles out of schools who have their own sports teams and campuses represents an unfair and huge advantage that an increasing amount of schools are now using to become more competitive. I would like to see a separate class created for these schools and/or they should face a nominal penalty when competing. (+/- 2.5 points). BOA has done a poor job of policing this by largely ignoring it. Carmel may have a large student body, but that's fine because they are not combining schools. PCEP should have never been allowed to compete with others as three high schools to begin with. You see it now with Lincoln-Way (IL). Three high schools with different identities should not be able to compete against single high school bands without a competitive balance equation. BOA doesn't have a policy against combining school programs. Why should they? It'd go against the mission of the organization, just unnecessarily punishing by offering more opportunities to succeed across the campuses. While competition is a major part of BOA, the reason is music education. 2nd- there's no strong correlation that combining schools brings success. See current PCEP and Lawrence Township. Combining schools does bring some more potential in terms of resources, money, labor, interest, etc., but it means zilch if the program cannot seize that opportunity. The program still needs a strong design team and leadership to handle the transition smoothly. I don't know if you were aware, but Lincoln-Way schools were the laughingstock of Illinois for a while (I mean.... opening 4 schools in a span of 4 years promising growth in each is moronic). Each of those schools were struggling immensely with retaining interest in each of their individual programs- North was AA, but fielded at most 60-70 members (which is not a lot). For a place that was pretty decent like Lincoln-Way, it was a pretty embarrassing showcase of incompetence. While I think it left some bitter taste in a few's mouths, I think the combination was for the better and they're doing pretty well for themselves. That was a pretty big chance for the Lincoln-Way band programs to actually take a pretty large step forward, and they grabbed it fairly well in my opinion.
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Post by dallasman on Jun 17, 2019 13:29:02 GMT -6
I would only make the argument that I don't think it's fair to all of the other bands who are competing as single schools and that BOA should take a strong look into this practice. If BOA hosts competitions, where bands advanced based on scores, and not exhibitions, then this is a competitive advantage for schools to combine. It never guarantees their success, but combining three schools? What if another program decided to cross district lines and just combine with any group they want to? Nothing stopping that in the BOA rules.
Lincoln-Way used to be a strong district but it was mismanaged for years. If they want to have three campuses but one mascot or sports team per sport, I'm cool with their band drawing what they do now. I don't think they are that great, but they're on the come.
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Post by yayband914 on Jun 17, 2019 13:29:58 GMT -6
Norton (according to the Ohio Dept of Education) was at 654 last year and is projected to be at 634 in 2019-20. After looking at enrollment numbers multiple times for various schools (admittedly primarily in Indiana) I am not sure many people on the edge are being wholly truthful. Lots of Bands that seem to be in AA or AAA based on publicly available numbers competing in the class below. Interesting... at least now I know of a more accurate resource to use for Ohio schools 😜
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Post by boahistorybuff on Jun 17, 2019 13:56:18 GMT -6
Norton (according to the Ohio Dept of Education) was at 654 last year and is projected to be at 634 in 2019-20. After looking at enrollment numbers multiple times for various schools (admittedly primarily in Indiana) I am not sure many people on the edge are being wholly truthful. Lots of Bands that seem to be in AA or AAA based on publicly available numbers competing in the class below. Make sure you look at the enrollment for the 10th - 12th grade only and not the total high school enrollment which likely includes the freshman class. The BOA class system is based on student enrollment of 10th, 11th and 12th grades only.
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Post by paddy on Jun 17, 2019 15:13:00 GMT -6
Norton (according to the Ohio Dept of Education) was at 654 last year and is projected to be at 634 in 2019-20. After looking at enrollment numbers multiple times for various schools (admittedly primarily in Indiana) I am not sure many people on the edge are being wholly truthful. Lots of Bands that seem to be in AA or AAA based on publicly available numbers competing in the class below. Make sure you look at the enrollment for the 10th - 12th grade only and not the total high school enrollment which likely includes the freshman class. The BOA class system is based on student enrollment of 10th, 11th and 12th grades only. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Used this link: education.ohio.gov/Topics/Data/Frequently-Requested-Data/Enrollment-DataNorton HS Fall 2018 Headcount 9th: 207 10th: 206 11th: 221 12th: 227 2018 10-12 total: 654 Projected 2019 10-12 total: 634 I can do simple addition and I do understand the rules so my statements of fact (about their size according to the Ohio Dept of Ed) are correct. Now this is admittedly headcount which is "butts in seats" and not ADM (which I can't find good data for on the website). As another example, I will use an Indiana band that I have looked at before. Indiana is a bit more user friendly as they have enrollment on the web as opposed to a download: compass.doe.in.gov/dashboard/enrollment.aspx?type=school&id=2921Western HS, Russiaville IN 2018-19 Enrollment (They competed in A at Indy Super regional) 9th: 230 10th: 194 11th: 207 12th: 218 2018 10-12 total: 619 Projected 2019 10-12 total: 631 And as a cross check: ISSMA has them at 849, the DOE website has them at 850 (but counts 1 8th grade kid in the HS enrollment), so the numbers are accurate. So I continue to feel comfortable saying that I am not sure many people on the edge are being wholly truthful.
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Post by yayband914 on Jun 17, 2019 17:21:11 GMT -6
Make sure you look at the enrollment for the 10th - 12th grade only and not the total high school enrollment which likely includes the freshman class. The BOA class system is based on student enrollment of 10th, 11th and 12th grades only. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Used this link: education.ohio.gov/Topics/Data/Frequently-Requested-Data/Enrollment-DataNorton HS Fall 2018 Headcount 9th: 207 10th: 206 11th: 221 12th: 227 2018 10-12 total: 654 Projected 2019 10-12 total: 634 I can do simple addition and I do understand the rules so my statements of fact (about their size according to the Ohio Dept of Ed) are correct. Now this is admittedly headcount which is "butts in seats" and not ADM (which I can't find good data for on the website). As another example, I will use an Indiana band that I have looked at before. Indiana is a bit more user friendly as they have enrollment on the web as opposed to a download: compass.doe.in.gov/dashboard/enrollment.aspx?type=school&id=2921Western HS, Russiaville IN 2018-19 Enrollment (They competed in A at Indy Super regional) 9th: 230 10th: 194 11th: 207 12th: 218 2018 10-12 total: 619 Projected 2019 10-12 total: 631 And as a cross check: ISSMA has them at 849, the DOE website has them at 850 (but counts 1 8th grade kid in the HS enrollment), so the numbers are accurate. So I continue to feel comfortable saying that I am not sure many people on the edge are being wholly truthful. That’s actually kinda shitty. Greendale, for example, is right on the edge, too. So if they had thought of fudging numbers, they could have theoretically been the Class A champion at Grand Nats for several years.
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Post by Subito Fortissimo on Jun 17, 2019 19:40:30 GMT -6
I think if there are directors being dishonest with numbers the thing that makes it worse is that principals are too. They have to sign off on the numbers declaration when a band applies for entry into a BOA show. Though I would imagine there are a lot who don't even read what they're signing.
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Post by yayband914 on Jun 17, 2019 20:10:01 GMT -6
I think if there are directors being dishonest with numbers the thing that makes it worse is that principals are too. They have to sign off on the numbers declaration when a band applies for entry into a BOA show. Though I would imagine there are a lot who don't even read what they're signing. “Sign this form and ignore the numbers if you want our marching program to garner even more success.” Can’t think of a principal who would say no to positive recognition for any program of the school.
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Post by abtwitch on Jun 18, 2019 2:30:03 GMT -6
I wonder how often this happens in Texas? It was a HUGE surprise to see Vista Ridge in AAA and Rouse in AA and I've always been confused by Clear Brook staying AAA for so long despite their growing school.
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Post by paddy on Jun 18, 2019 4:22:08 GMT -6
I will admit that I don’t have as much experience/history with BOA as many on this board, but I’ve always found it interesting that they allow schools to self-certify their class. It is one of the reason that I started looking at enrollment info that I could find online. (That and I’m a huge nerd about data)
I never looked for Texas info, but if I get a chance at work today I will poke around the Texas Education Agency website and see what I can find.
It isn’t hard to find or provide certification of this info so it seems to me that BOA ought to hold the directors to a higher standard.
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Post by OldSchoolTrumpet on Jun 18, 2019 6:09:50 GMT -6
Using the link above, Homestead (IN) will definitely be back in AAAA this year. The 10-12 enrollment numbers last year show 1746, (580, 586, 580) but the freshman class was 678. So I hope they enjoyed their one year just under the cut line, because it's back into the big pool.
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Post by Samuel Culper on Jun 18, 2019 7:28:09 GMT -6
I wonder how often this happens in Texas? It was a HUGE surprise to see Vista Ridge in AAA and Rouse in AA and I've always been confused by Clear Brook staying AAA for so long despite their growing school. Please tell me you are not implying that Vista Ridge is gaming the numbers. The drop to 3A last year was due to BOA raising the cutoff. And it was very close. I think it's possible, if not likely, that Vista will move back up to 4A this year. And Rouse in 2A was not a surprise. Their enrollment dropped notably with the opening of Glenn a couple years ago.
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Post by paddy on Jun 18, 2019 7:40:38 GMT -6
So Texas is a little harder, but if you go to this link: rptsvr1.tea.texas.gov/adhocrpt/adste.html you can either download the entire CSV of campus level enrollments, or view as a webpage an individual campus. For abtwitch... Rouse HS 2018-19 9th: 482 10th: 407 11th: 398 12th: 401 2018-19 total: 1,206 Projected 2019 10-12 total: 1,287 So they project as a AAA school in 2019-20 Vista Ridge HS 2018-19 9th: 638 10th: 564 11th: 604 12th: 578 2018-19 total: 1,746 Projected 2019 10-12 total: 1,806 So they project as a AAAA school in 2019-20 Clear Brook HS 2018-19 9th: 648 10th: 541 11th: 549 12th: 520 2018-19 total: 1,610 Projected 2019 10-12 total: 1,738 So they project as a AAA school in 2019-20, but one will assume they will tip over soon. Especially if they get another 600 kid class
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Post by thewho on Jun 18, 2019 9:00:27 GMT -6
I would only make the argument that I don't think it's fair to all of the other bands who are competing as single schools and that BOA should take a strong look into this practice. If BOA hosts competitions, where bands advanced based on scores, and not exhibitions, then this is a competitive advantage for schools to combine. It never guarantees their success, but combining three schools? What if another program decided to cross district lines and just combine with any group they want to? Nothing stopping that in the BOA rules. Lincoln-Way used to be a strong district but it was mismanaged for years. If they want to have three campuses but one mascot or sports team per sport, I'm cool with their band drawing what they do now. I don't think they are that great, but they're on the come. Yeah, that's a major loophole. Alright- let's figure out who takes care of the medical documents, who is liable for the students of all schools on a band trip to a competition, the band director group, a new band parent organization, the new concert band hierarchy, and the practice space. Let's not forget new wages, the new revenue streams of taxpayer money, delegation of grant money, whether programs would be hosted at multiple high schools, referendums to structure the new education curriculum... I hope you get the sarcasm on this. The pageantry arts are not big enough to encourage moves like this. -------------------------------------------- However, I do get the concern on fudging enrollment numbers. I think that's much more worth looking into instead of trying to study how combined schools "circumvent" the competition.
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Post by paddy on Jun 18, 2019 10:44:40 GMT -6
So I am eating lunch and got bored...
Starting at the top of the Gran Nationals Prelim list and checking non-AAAA schools
Tarpon Springs: 2018-19: 1,001 2019-20: 1,090 (Proj)
Dobyns-Bennett: 2018-19: 1,646 2019-20: 1,733 (Proj)
Franklin (TN): 2018-19: 1,353 2019-20: 1,338 (Proj)
Homestead: 2018-19: 1,746 2019-20: 1,844 (Proj) (weirdly large 9th grade class of 678 and the 3 classes behind that are back to normal)
Castle: 2018-19: 1,481 2019-20: 1,417 (Proj) (Castle would be an interesting case study about combining schools as they have 2 high schools in the district. The other has a pretty decent marching band, but is much smaller at 695 grades 10-12)
Kennesaw Mountain: 2018-19: 1,392 2019-20: 1,572 (Proj)
North Hardin: 2017-18: 1,194 2018-19: 1,294 (Proj) Looks like they could/should be AAA instead of AA but Kentucky's data lags a year.
Morton: 2018-19: 694 2019-20: 716 (Proj)
Goshen:
2018-19: 1,444
2019-20: 1,429 (Proj)
I think that gets me through the top 30.
Only anomaly I see is North Hardin, but as stated above the Kentucky data I could find (on the KY Dept. of Ed site no less) lagged by a year and was for 2017-18.
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Post by Jake W. on Jun 18, 2019 14:18:53 GMT -6
So I am eating lunch and got bored... Starting at the top of the Gran Nationals Prelim list and checking non-AAAA schools Tarpon Springs: 2018-19: 1,001 2019-20: 1,090 (Proj) Castle: 2018-19: 1,481 2019-20: 1,417 (Proj) (Castle would be an interesting case study about combining schools as they have 2 high schools in the district. The other has a pretty decent marching band, but is much smaller at 695 grades 10-12) North Hardin: 2017-18: 1,194 2018-19: 1,294 (Proj) Looks like they could/should be AAA instead of AA but Kentucky's data lags a year. Only anomaly I see is North Hardin, but as stated above the Kentucky data I could find (on the KY Dept. of Ed site no less) lagged by a year and was for 2017-18. ----------------- Castle actually has three schools in the district; Tecumseh is the third on the north rural end of Warrick County. They had a competitive marching band up until a few years ago, although never more than 30-40 members. Boonville is the county seat and has always been a decentish marching band, always around 60-80 members. The director has been there for hundreds of years. Either way, I can't imagine Castle ever going to a district-wide marching band...a) too much pride in the individual band and b) no financial need to do so. Newburgh is an upper middle class suburban community with deep pockets and endless parental support & volunteer time. Only thing I wanted to say about your North Hardin comments was insert joke about Kentucky technology. Regarding Tarpon, that's always an interesting one --- the school itself is AA, but they do draw from the entire district...which is 16 other high schools. I've never been able to find any data on how many students attend Tarpon because they're zoned for it and how many attend because it's a magnet school for fine arts in the district, or even if students attend any of the other 16 high schools but take band at Tarpon, etc., nor do I think it should matter....all of that is impossible to track when calculating numbers for BOA and I'm fine with them competing in AA. Back to the point at hand, it's always been a badly kept secret that some bands fudge numbers a bit to remain in a lower class. I believe Bellbrook & Western were the most recent examples of this. By the way, I have no evidence of this myself, but it was discussed at length throughout the last decade or so on the old MFA forums. I personally don't care --- if you're six students over the cut off, I don't personally have a problem that you still compete as an A band. And in the end, who remembers what the third place AAA band was four years ago at GN? Not that it's not important, I'm just saying that the bands at the top still get in by score and that's the true marker of success.
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Post by Subito Fortissimo on Jun 18, 2019 19:37:06 GMT -6
thewho : "the new revenue streams of taxpayer money" This right here is something that is a huge case of haves and have nots. There are a whole lot of competitive programs who receive absolutely zero funding for band from their school system beyond the director/s salary and they have to fund everything themselves through fees and fundraising. For those programs they could actually benefit from combining their marching bands to pool their resources and get more bang for their buck. In most areas the people in charge could not care less about band competitions or how "good" the band is. In my district they only care that there is a band at the football games and in the big Christmas parade each year. Everything we do competitively, we fund ourselves. They don't even provide money for instrument repair or music purchases. Edit: I really hate the quoting system this forum uses.
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Post by paddy on Jun 19, 2019 7:04:09 GMT -6
So I am eating lunch and got bored... Starting at the top of the Gran Nationals Prelim list and checking non-AAAA schools Tarpon Springs: 2018-19: 1,001 2019-20: 1,090 (Proj) Castle: 2018-19: 1,481 2019-20: 1,417 (Proj) (Castle would be an interesting case study about combining schools as they have 2 high schools in the district. The other has a pretty decent marching band, but is much smaller at 695 grades 10-12) North Hardin: 2017-18: 1,194 2018-19: 1,294 (Proj) Looks like they could/should be AAA instead of AA but Kentucky's data lags a year. Only anomaly I see is North Hardin, but as stated above the Kentucky data I could find (on the KY Dept. of Ed site no less) lagged by a year and was for 2017-18. ----------------- Castle actually has three schools in the district; Tecumseh is the third on the north rural end of Warrick County. They had a competitive marching band up until a few years ago, although never more than 30-40 members. Boonville is the county seat and has always been a decentish marching band, always around 60-80 members. The director has been there for hundreds of years. Either way, I can't imagine Castle ever going to a district-wide marching band...a) too much pride in the individual band and b) no financial need to do so. Newburgh is an upper middle class suburban community with deep pockets and endless parental support & volunteer time. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Forgot about Tecumseh. I don't think they are a place that would think about combining in the near future, but it isn't like Lawrence Township was on the radar to combine. Lawrence Central won BOA in 2001 and 2004 and was runner-up in 2008 as well as ISSMA State Champ in 2008 and today they are combined.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Regarding Tarpon, that's always an interesting one --- the school itself is AA, but they do draw from the entire district...which is 16 other high schools. I've never been able to find any data on how many students attend Tarpon because they're zoned for it and how many attend because it's a magnet school for fine arts in the district, or even if students attend any of the other 16 high schools but take band at Tarpon, etc., nor do I think it should matter....all of that is impossible to track when calculating numbers for BOA and I'm fine with them competing in AA. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I've always thought Tarpon and Marian Catholic are interesting cases (Tarpon more than MC). When you can recruit to a goal, it does give you a built-in advantage. Unless BOA went to success classing like WGI (which I would not be a fan of) there is no way to address it. I agree with you that it is fine that they are in AA. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Back to the point at hand, it's always been a badly kept secret that some bands fudge numbers a bit to remain in a lower class. I believe Bellbrook & Western were the most recent examples of this. By the way, I have no evidence of this myself, but it was discussed at length throughout the last decade or so on the old MFA forums. I personally don't care --- if you're six students over the cut off, I don't personally have a problem that you still compete as an A band. And in the end, who remembers what the third place AAA band was four years ago at GN? Not that it's not important, I'm just saying that the bands at the top still get in by score and that's the true marker of success. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I understand what you are saying, but it is only valid if accolades are the only measuring stick. I am fortunate to be around a program that believes in raising up kids through music to be good adults that are responsible, punctual, honorable, and engaged. It rings hollow if you then knowingly compete in the wrong classification.
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Post by OldSchoolTrumpet on Jun 19, 2019 7:21:32 GMT -6
Forgot about Tecumseh. I don't think they are a place that would think about combining in the near future, but it isn't like Lawrence Township was on the radar to combine. Lawrence Central won BOA in 2001 and 2004 and was runner-up in 2008 as well as ISSMA State Champ in 2008 and today they are combined.
----------------------------------- I wonder where Lawrence Central would be today had they not merged with LN and become Lawrence Twp. They certainly have not flourished competitively as LT, making GN Finals only that first season, then dropping out since. They were 21st last season. They're actually smaller today (to my eye) than they were as LC. I wonder if the lack of school identity and association has actually hurt participation. Of course, it's possible that they would have trended downward anyway, but they were 8th in their final season as Lawrence Central. I know Randy Greenwell retired, but the slide started while he was still there.
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Post by paddy on Jun 19, 2019 7:29:13 GMT -6
Forgot about Tecumseh. I don't think they are a place that would think about combining in the near future, but it isn't like Lawrence Township was on the radar to combine. Lawrence Central won BOA in 2001 and 2004 and was runner-up in 2008 as well as ISSMA State Champ in 2008 and today they are combined.
----------------------------------- I wonder where Lawrence Central would be today had they not merged with LN and become Lawrence Twp. They certainly have not flourished competitively as LT, making GN Finals only that first season, then dropping out since. They were 21st last season. They're actually smaller today (to my eye) than they were as LC. I wonder if the lack of school identity and association has actually hurt participation. Of course, it's possible that they would have trended downward anyway, but they were 8th in their final season as Lawrence Central. I know Randy Greenwell retired, but the slide started while he was still there. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lawrence Township as a whole is a district in transition. They have been on the short end of the explosion of the HSE (Fishers HS and Hamilton Southeastern HS) just north of them. That explosion really accelerated in the early 2000s which would show up demographically in the mid 2010s as those kids got to MS and HS age.
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Post by midwestfan on Sept 22, 2019 2:08:08 GMT -6
Norton (according to the Ohio Dept of Education) was at 654 last year and is projected to be at 634 in 2019-20. After looking at enrollment numbers multiple times for various schools (admittedly primarily in Indiana) I am not sure many people on the edge are being wholly truthful. Lots of Bands that seem to be in AA or AAA based on publicly available numbers competing in the class below. All enrollment numbers have to be verified by administrators. The numbers you cite are before vocational students are taken out. These are students who are part of that schools enrollment but are not available for elective classes due to vocational scheduling so they do not count against enrollment numbers.
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Post by paddy on Sept 22, 2019 4:39:09 GMT -6
Norton (according to the Ohio Dept of Education) was at 654 last year and is projected to be at 634 in 2019-20. After looking at enrollment numbers multiple times for various schools (admittedly primarily in Indiana) I am not sure many people on the edge are being wholly truthful. Lots of Bands that seem to be in AA or AAA based on publicly available numbers competing in the class below. All enrollment numbers have to be verified by administrators. The numbers you cite are before vocational students are taken out. These are students who are part of that schools enrollment but are not available for elective classes due to vocational scheduling so they do not count against enrollment numbers. 1. The fact that they are “reviewed” by administrators means nothing. I’ve worked in schools for 3 decades and this falls in to the “here sign this so I can take the kids to X” style of review. 80% of school level admins aren’t vetting this. 2. Enrollment is enrollment. Should they take out special needs students with physical handicaps? Football players (their schedule doesn’t allow for other extra-curricular activities)? Either they attend your school or they don’t.
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Post by Allohak on Sept 22, 2019 6:39:43 GMT -6
All enrollment numbers have to be verified by administrators. The numbers you cite are before vocational students are taken out. These are students who are part of that schools enrollment but are not available for elective classes due to vocational scheduling so they do not count against enrollment numbers. 1. The fact that they are “reviewed” by administrators means nothing. I’ve worked in schools for 3 decades and this falls in to the “here sign this so I can take the kids to X” style of review. 80% of school level admins aren’t vetting this. 2. Enrollment is enrollment. Should they take out special needs students with physical handicaps? Football players (their schedule doesn’t allow for other extra-curricular activities)? Either they attend your school or they don’t. My brother went to a regional vocational school. He remained part of the Mason band. He graduated from both institutions.
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Post by midwestfan on Sept 22, 2019 9:16:16 GMT -6
1. The fact that they are “reviewed” by administrators means nothing. I’ve worked in schools for 3 decades and this falls in to the “here sign this so I can take the kids to X” style of review. 80% of school level admins aren’t vetting this. 2. Enrollment is enrollment. Should they take out special needs students with physical handicaps? Football players (their schedule doesn’t allow for other extra-curricular activities)? Either they attend your school or they don’t. My brother went to a regional vocational school. He remained part of the Mason band. He graduated from both institutions. Regardless of your brother, BOA allows for this and in many schools Band is a credited class and the vocational students cannot take it therefore that situation arises. Also the numbers you are getting from Ohio especially are not accurate. The ADM is not the enrollment used. The biggest issue is calling out schools on a forum for being dishonest with a few clicks of a mouse and basic internet research. That is unfair to any of the schools you are citing on this post. I am sure there are bands gaming the system but you are calling out schools that are not and that is unfair to malign their names from behind your keyboard.
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Post by paddy on Sept 22, 2019 9:45:14 GMT -6
My brother went to a regional vocational school. He remained part of the Mason band. He graduated from both institutions. Regardless of your brother, BOA allows for this and in many schools Band is a credited class and the vocational students cannot take it therefore that situation arises. Also the numbers you are getting from Ohio especially are not accurate. The ADM is not the enrollment used. The biggest issue is calling out schools on a forum for being dishonest with a few clicks of a mouse and basic internet research. That is unfair to any of the schools you are citing on this post. I am sure there are bands gaming the system but you are calling out schools that are not and that is unfair to malign their names from behind your keyboard. I actually was pretty clear my data was not ADM, but headcount. I’m ok with the allowance as long as there are certifiably no vocational kids in band.
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