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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 12, 2023 10:16:17 GMT -6
So let us try to keep this civil. So I think from some comments that there was a little surprise that some Texas bands did not do as well as expected at Grand Nationals. My thoughts...
First off, let me remind everyone that the depth of high quality Texas bands is unreal. At least 3 to 4 dozen Texas bands could have easily made GN Semi Finals.
Texas bands had a couple things that I think were big challenges for them this season.
1. It was an insanely hot summer in Texas. Most of the state had heat indices over 100 degrees all summer long. I know Texas is used to hot summers, but this summer had to put a strain on vital outdoor practice sessions.
2. The practice restrictions on UIL bands is more strict than other circuits. I guarantee you that bands outside Texas had more than double the amount of practice time leading into GN.
What typically takes the longest to perfect during a season is general effect. On the visual side that involves cleanliness of visual transitions and on the music side that involves the ability to convey the emotion in the music to the audience. For the two reasons I mentioned, that had to have had an impact on a lot of Texas bands this season in their ability to get their shows to the level of obtaining their full GE potential. Now yes there were exceptions, most notable was Vandegrift at San Antonio.
What I also noticed a lot this season was amazing technique by the Texas bands as you would expect, but I was missing the emotional connection to the show. Again, this was not all of the Texas bands, just a lot more than usual.
One trend I have also noticed is that more and more of the Texas shows have become jam packed with segments showcasing technique. So much so that we bounce around from loud brass one second, to woodwind runs to fast pace percussion to brass triple tongue then to a brief slow section to catch a breather, then back to loud and powerful full band. Now dont get me wrong, those shows are fun to watch and certainly energetic. Maybe the UIL judges prefer that. I think for BOA in particular, those shows are hard to get high music effect scores because you dont have enough moments to really explore the emotions that are trying to be conveyed by the music. Now dont get me wrong, a music performance that is clean with well executed difficulty is going to get high music effect scores, but not as high as they could be if the band was able to really convey the emotion in the music to the audience.
Some classic Texas shows that both took the time for the audience to really savor the emotion in the music and still managed to showcase wonderful moments of good technique include:
Hebron 2021 and 2015
Flower Mound 2015 and 2016
Vandegrift 2019 and 2021
The Woodlands 2013 and 2021
Marcus in the late 2000s and 2010s
LD Bell during their late 2000 glory years
etc...etc...etc...
Within this seasons Grand Nationals, the visual routines of Avon and Carmel were just on another level. My goodness Avon had to have had long practice sessions to get those visual moves perfected all while playing that music. With both of those shows, you could also feel what the music was trying to convey, especially Carmel. Look at Hebron, they won music performance because their technique was incredible. While they did have moments that really connected with the audience, it was not present throughout the whole show like it was with Avon and Carmel. No question the technique of The Woodlands was stronger than Blue Springs. However, in Finals, Blue Springs delivered an emotional performance that was not there with The Woodlands.
So this whole anti Texas bias in BOA in my opinion is BS. Perhaps if Texas has a little more favorable weather conditions the next few summers and if UIL eases their practice restrictions just a bit, we will see more Texas bands taking home the eagle.
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Post by principalagent on Nov 12, 2023 11:10:28 GMT -6
UIL changed its State sheets since the pandemic to include separate scored captions for woodwinds, brass, and percussion, which each count for one of the 7 captions that make the final ordinal. This year, it became extremely obvious that bands were designing with that in mind. Especially because State now occurs every year, it will absolutely hamstring Texas bands because those separate voice features are rarely GE friendly, as you mention.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 12, 2023 11:23:30 GMT -6
UIL changed its State sheets since the pandemic to include separate scored captions for woodwinds, brass, and percussion, which each count for one of the 7 captions that make the final ordinal. This year, it became extremely obvious that bands were designing with that in mind. Especially because State now occurs every year, it will absolutely hamstring Texas bands because those separate voice features are rarely GE friendly, as you mention. That is very unfortunate. That explains a lot what I have noticed. It turns a show into look at this section, then look at this section, now look at that section. The show loses cohesion that way and will not be as competitive at Grand Nationals. |
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Post by philodemus on Nov 12, 2023 12:52:58 GMT -6
How does UIL work?
That is, if there were a large contingent of Texas program who wanted to loosen the 8 Hour Rule or the August 1 Rule, could they petition for this?
My guess would be such a proposal would face strong opposition from band directors whose primary concern is doing the minimum required of them keeping the focus on concert season where it pedagogically should be.
But, assuming it could overcome such opposition, would it be possible to make the changes?
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 12, 2023 14:32:03 GMT -6
I have no idea how UIL works. I would however stress that you learn a lot in marching band too, particularly performance.
What I am seeing with these Texas bands the last couple of years (which understanding the new UIL rules makes more sense) is perhaps an unintended consequence of placing too much focus on technique. What seems to be sacrificed is learning things like phrasing and expression. Instead there is more of a hyper focus on technical playing ability, especially difficult musical passages.
Good technique is only one part of music education. Learning to convey the emotion of the music to the audience is the other. I will use this example. There are a lot of good technical singers who hit the right key and manage to stay in tune. We hear them at weddings and funerals, etc. Overall, they tend to be really boring. However, what makes someone who can sing a true musician is not only being able to hit all the notes but to have the ability to make the listener feel the emotion that is being conveyed in the song. Those are the artists we pay money to hear sing. Those are the singers who have music effect.
What I fear may happen with the trend I see going on in UIL is that these Texas shows will pack a ton of technical difficulty through most of the show and then try to rely on a 1.5 to 2 minute ballad to try to get the points for effect or worse yet rely on their soloists for the GE mark. That is not going to be as impactful a show and will be doing a disservice to the students.
Hebron's 2021 show Penstriped was a master class in musical performance, both in technique and overall effect. Had Hebron come to Indy with a musically arranged show like that, they likely would have had much higher music effect scores and very well could have taken the eagle home to Texas. So if Hebron tailored their music book to fit the UIL system, then it is the UIL system that cost them the Grand National title, not BOA. I am not on the Texas forums but that is what I would say to the BOA haters over there.
I find it interesting that Texas is known for having such an independent streak with most things; dont mess with Texas, dont try to regulate us, etc. However, their marching band circuit is one of the most restrictive in the country. Why is that?
Now I really don't want to come down too hard on UIL. I mean they are doing a lot of things right. Their high school musicians are fantastic and I always have found their parent groups amazing. As a longtime BOA fan, I will say that Texas bands have made this circuit even more enjoyable and many of BOA's most iconic shows are from Texas bands. I do however worry that UIL may have inadvertently stifled Texas bands abilities to be more innovative and to live up to their full musical capabilities.
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Post by peshbandkid on Nov 12, 2023 15:21:30 GMT -6
As a former Texas marcher, this year was once again a very strong one in Texas, ending with the 10th straight year that the BOASA champion doesn't attend Grand Nationals  Although I think this was a good year for Texas bands, I still think the stretch from 2017-2021 was the peak period in Texas. The UIL moving to have state every year, as well as changing the state judging sheets for 5A and 6A has already forced some schools to choose which to attend and will continue to impact how shows are designed. |
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rickofavon
Senior Member
Never let the drumming die.
Posts: 75
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Post by rickofavon on Nov 12, 2023 17:31:50 GMT -6
I couldn’t imagine being told how much you can practice. That is nuts. That is the most insane rule.
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Post by allthingschaotic on Nov 12, 2023 18:22:25 GMT -6
I couldn’t imagine being told how much you can practice. That is nuts. That is the most insane rule. Those restrictions are a godsend for students that want to excel in academics and other activities in addition to band. Trust me, I was one of those kids until very recently and I wouldn't have survived without those rules. |
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rickofavon
Senior Member
Never let the drumming die.
Posts: 75
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Post by rickofavon on Nov 12, 2023 18:47:35 GMT -6
Fair enough. I was band/Drumline only with no other interests so I was never pressed for time.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 12, 2023 19:04:42 GMT -6
I couldn’t imagine being told how much you can practice. That is nuts. That is the most insane rule. Those restrictions are a godsend for students that want to excel in academics and other activities in addition to band. Trust me, I was one of those kids until very recently and I wouldn't have survived without those rules. Very much understand, but in some instances rules can be stretched. For instance a long Saturday practice on a day with no competition, an extra hour or two the week before a big competition, etc. In many states, the district/school board and directors, with input from parents set the rules for hours per week of practice, not the marching band circuit. |
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 12, 2023 19:15:27 GMT -6
UIL changed its State sheets since the pandemic to include separate scored captions for woodwinds, brass, and percussion, which each count for one of the 7 captions that make the final ordinal. This year, it became extremely obvious that bands were designing with that in mind. Especially because State now occurs every year, it will absolutely hamstring Texas bands because those separate voice features are rarely GE friendly, as you mention. The amount of time during the shows during which woodwinds were clearly audible for all 8 Texas bands at GN is evidence that the musical designs have adapted. I don't agree that it necessarily negatively impacts GE, though. Lots of bands elsewhere feature the separate voices and do quite well in GE. |
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 12, 2023 19:18:43 GMT -6
I couldn’t imagine being told how much you can practice. That is nuts. That is the most insane rule. Those restrictions are a godsend for students that want to excel in academics and other activities in addition to band. Trust me, I was one of those kids until very recently and I wouldn't have survived without those rules. Many band students excel academically and in other areas without such a restriction. Both of my kids performed better academically during marching band season than the rest of the school year because of the discipline required. |
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 12, 2023 19:46:14 GMT -6
UIL changed its State sheets since the pandemic to include separate scored captions for woodwinds, brass, and percussion, which each count for one of the 7 captions that make the final ordinal. This year, it became extremely obvious that bands were designing with that in mind. Especially because State now occurs every year, it will absolutely hamstring Texas bands because those separate voice features are rarely GE friendly, as you mention. The amount of time during the shows during which woodwinds were clearly audible for all 8 Texas bands at GN is evidence that the musical designs have adapted. I don't agree that it necessarily negatively impacts GE, though. Lots of bands elsewhere feature the separate voices and do quite well in GE. Yes I agree to an extent. But I can see that the UIL sheets may push it too far and not allow a well balanced show. Hebron 2021 had separate voices but still had balance and tons of effect. The more boxes that have to get checked, the less room for innovation, originality, and effect. Just my opinion and my observation from this season. |
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Post by allthingschaotic on Nov 12, 2023 20:54:00 GMT -6
Those restrictions are a godsend for students that want to excel in academics and other activities in addition to band. Trust me, I was one of those kids until very recently and I wouldn't have survived without those rules. Many band students excel academically and in other areas without such a restriction. Both of my kids performed better academically during marching band season than the rest of the school year because of the discipline required. I understand that excelling academically means different things to different people and I should have prefaced my post as such. I'm talking about maintaining high A's in several AP courses (or some equivalent), qualifying for National Merit, getting as close as possible to a 1600 on the SAT, etc. Is it possible? Not for most students. This doesn't apply to most band kids but it did for me and quite a few students at my school. I know many who, even with UIL's restrictions, quit before their senior year due to it being incredibly difficult to balance marching band with 5+ AP classes, PSAT/SAT/ACT prep, the TMEA all-state process, other extracurricular activities, work, research, and activities outside of school. They are the students aiming for the Ivy Leagues, so being in band interferes with their ability to do things that'll increase their chances of getting into top colleges. And when you're losing sleep time, having to perform at football games (Texas is big on bands supporting football teams...), and losing Saturdays to band contests, you can't compete with students that have that all of that time to rest, study, volunteer, work internships, lead organizations, and do research. Those band leadership roles only mean so much when there are thousands of other high school bands in the US. And it's definitely not just my school. Band programs in my area (DFW) emphasize that band students are among the smartest and highest performing students in the school. Why? Because that's what the parents and students want. They want to be the valedictorian, be involved in research, start a non-profit, and get into Stanford or Harvard. They don't care about band as long as it looks good on college applications. Not all students in band care about band and academics equally. |
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 13, 2023 4:36:52 GMT -6
Many band students excel academically and in other areas without such a restriction. Both of my kids performed better academically during marching band season than the rest of the school year because of the discipline required. I understand that excelling academically means different things to different people and I should have prefaced my post as such. I'm talking about maintaining high A's in several AP courses (or some equivalent), qualifying for National Merit, getting as close as possible to a 1600 on the SAT, etc. Is it possible? Not for most students. This doesn't apply to most band kids but it did for me and quite a few students at my school. I know many who, even with UIL's restrictions, quit before their senior year due to it being incredibly difficult to balance marching band with 5+ AP classes, PSAT/SAT/ACT prep, the TMEA all-state process, other extracurricular activities, work, research, and activities outside of school. They are the students aiming for the Ivy Leagues, so being in band interferes with their ability to do things that'll increase their chances of getting into top colleges. And when you're losing sleep time, having to perform at football games (Texas is big on bands supporting football teams...), and losing Saturdays to band contests, you can't compete with students that have that all of that time to rest, study, volunteer, work internships, lead organizations, and do research. Those band leadership roles only mean so much when there are thousands of other high school bands in the US. And it's definitely not just my school. Band programs in my area (DFW) emphasize that band students are among the smartest and highest performing students in the school. Why? Because that's what the parents and students want. They want to be the valedictorian, be involved in research, start a non-profit, and get into Stanford or Harvard. They don't care about band as long as it looks good on college applications. Not all students in band care about band and academics equally. I really do understand where you are coming from, it's all good. Your discussion points really raise the question as to how much pressure is being placed on students to achieve academically. If you are taking several AP courses in high school, you are likely doing the rigorous academic work of a college student. If we as a society are asking high school kids to do the work of college students, that says a lot about us. There are many schools that keep marching band rehearsal times to a minimum for this very reason, give the students a band program to enjoy without eating into their time too much. There is nothing wrong with that. However, if your school and music program is up to having a competitive program like those bands in Grand National finals, then there is going to have to be a considerable amount of practice time. That was the case 20 years ago, 30 years ago and 40 years ago and will be the case going forward. Yes I agree that school work comes first. There still needs to be a balance between academics and extra curricular activities. Let's face it, band is not the only activity that requires a lot of time. Sports certainly does as does being in something like a high school musical. If academics is taking all that time up, then what high school has become for those who really strive academically is a college level experience, not a high school one. I was only in college marching band for two of my four years in undergrad. The reason was that my science and math focused course work got too time consuming to do both. That was understandable as I was in college and not high school. Being in competitive marching band teaches so much more than music. You learn things like teamwork, mentoring and leadership. All the advanced academic courses are not going to teach that. Those are also things that are vital to having a successful career as an adult. Believe me there are plenty of people in the workforce that have achieved amazing things academically but have terrible interpersonal skills which make them a nightmare for those who try to work with them. Coming back to my point, I guess it is kind of a shame that some academic programs have become so intense for our gifted students that it leaves little room for other activities. I will note that when I was in school there were many who found themselves in a different situation. They had to have jobs in high school. Many of them had those jobs to save money to help their parents with expected college expenses. We actually had quite a few leave the band program mid way through high school for those reasons. I hate to be so blunt, but if kids want to be in a top level BOA program, there is going to have to be some degree of sacrifice. That said, I do understand that there has to be some degree of limitations on practice. I would hope that a band that tries to rehearse their kids an excessive amount would have parents or the school board stepping in. I would however think that band directors would understand that they dont want their kids to start suffering burnout mid way through the season. That would certainly have negative impacts on the performances. If UIL wants to enforce such stringent limitations on practice, that is fine, it is their prerogative. If that is the case however, then Texas can not say well such and such band only won because they have more practice time. It would be like a school that allows its marching band to only practice 4 hours a week outside of school hours to say to a school that allows its band to practice 15 hours a week that our band would have beaten you if your band were only allowed 4 hours practice time per week. That is what has been said and I dont think it is a fair statement to be made. |
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Post by das88 on Nov 13, 2023 20:06:21 GMT -6
A few general thoughts.
- Houston area bands are getting stronger. Bridgeland, Cy-Fair, Dawson. I know I am missing some others.
-seems that guards are improving. Definitely seeing more rifles. Increases is skill level.
- bands that have never been to GN’s that need to. Rouse, Bridgeland, Cy-Fair. Sounds like Forney might be coming next year. Timber Creek. Not sure if Westlake has been before. Coppell
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 14, 2023 5:34:19 GMT -6
Yes I totally agree. Houston area bands have been getting stronger. The talent among these Texas kids is insane. That is why I have been so vocal about my dissent with what UIL has done.
During the 2010s, and right up to 2021, Texas bands took competition to a whole new level. When your state produces shows like 2013 The Woodlands, 2015 Hebron, 2016 Flower Mound, 2019 Vandegrift and the other GN finalist bands in 2019, 2021 Hebron, 2021 The Woodlands, 2021 Flower Mound, etc, etc etc why on Earth change the formula?
I know most on these forums are not old enough to remember this but this is what I equate this situation to: in the 1980s, Coca Cola, the number one soft drink, changed the formula and created new Coke. It was a disaster. They failed to realize what made Coke the number one soft drink. They had to ditch the whole thing and go back to classic Coke.
It is great that the talent of these Texas kids is such that they can play such amazing musical difficulty. However, that takes a lot of practice to perfect. Given limited practice time, I worry that these bands will have to spend so much time learning these difficult passages that they will not be able to fully develop things like phrasing and musical expression. I also think that the music arrangements are becoming such that everything seems forced. As an audience member, I would like those things to sound like they are happening organically.
Go watch the last Texas band to win the Grand National title, 2019 Vandegrift in their GN Finals. They had plenty of moments that showcased music difficulty. However, none of it felt forced. Everything flowed so well together. They also used various types of musical phrasing to build to the loud moments in the show. It created a much bigger impact. That show had effect. As a listener, if I have to hear the music bounce around from loud to soft, to here is a woodwind feature to here is our brass feature now here is our percussion feature, it is hard to really feel the music. And I dont want to see every single Texas band do that. You loose the originality and none of the bands will leave a lasting impression. In other words, the show will be forgetable.
I hate to use Marian Catholic as an example because their music arrangements were so genius, but I am going to in this instance. I would suggest watching 1997, 2000, and 2002 Marian Catholic Grand National Finals performances. Those shows had amazing technique but also had effect and none of it felt forced.
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Post by homerchap on Nov 14, 2023 9:41:38 GMT -6
People outside of Texas may not realize, but UIL is not just a band circuit. They effect pretty much every aspect of Texas schools. They oversee anything where there is a competition between schools. Things like football, basketball, volleyball and track are obvious but they also oversee things like debate, theater and journalism. I think because of this it causes them to create the rules they have. Every year they have a few meetings a year where new rules for all of these activities are brought up and discussed. I know this year they tried passing a rule that allowed bands to practice before August 1, since August 1st was a Tuesday. Bands just wanted to be able to practice their drill on July 31st but it wasn't passed. Schools are starting earlier and earlier every year. Ours started on August 9 this year, so that meant that we only had 8 days to freely practice our drill before school started. I do wish Texas would come up with a rule that allows bands to start learning drill so many days before the first day of school. There were other schools in our area that didn't start for two weeks after that so they had 23 days to learn drill before school started.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 14, 2023 10:51:20 GMT -6
People outside of Texas may not realize, but UIL is not just a band circuit. They effect pretty much every aspect of Texas schools. They oversee anything where there is a competition between schools. Things like football, basketball, volleyball and track are obvious but they also oversee things like debate, theater and journalism. I think because of this it causes them to create the rules they have. Every year they have a few meetings a year where new rules for all of these activities are brought up and discussed. I know this year they tried passing a rule that allowed bands to practice before August 1, since August 1st was a Tuesday. Bands just wanted to be able to practice their drill on July 31st but it wasn't passed. Schools are starting earlier and earlier every year. Ours started on August 9 this year, so that meant that we only had 8 days to freely practice our drill before school started. I do wish Texas would come up with a rule that allows bands to start learning drill so many days before the first day of school. There were other schools in our area that didn't start for two weeks after that so they had 23 days to learn drill before school started. That is such a shame. Again, it brings me back to an earlier point, why does Texas of all states have such a strict regulatory system in place? If a band wants to start learning drill July 1st, why not let them? And my goodness, how is all of that enforced. I can tell by the soloists in Texas bands that they do an awful lot of practice time at home. Does UIL try to restrict practice time in students homes? If not should they? Should they send people door to door? Do they tell the bands what songs they can and cant play? Yes I know I am being sarcastic but seriously, what in the world is UIL doing. If you try to drown a program like band in restrictions, you lose the artistry. Some of us older folks witnessed how much more artistry developed in marching band and drum corps in the 1980s. The reason why was because they did away with all of the strict rules of the 60s and 70s which stifled innovation and originality. What is the next move, force Texas bands to go back to symmetrical drill design and force the guard back into military attire. |
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 25, 2023 13:07:15 GMT -6
To clarify/summarize a few points.
1. I do not think the 8 hour practice rule M-F is a big problem. I think anything more than 10 hours M-F is too much for students, and I know some bands are doing that. I just think the practice restrictions should be implemented by the districts and not a state run regulatory system.
2. Do Texas bands still have to attend away games? Are there Texas bands still doing both a competition and a football half time show on Saturdays? If so, seems that would be more draining on students then the practice schedule. Speaking of which, maybe BOA San Antonio needs to be earlier in the season. It seems too close to the UIL championships. That too is probably more strenuous for students than what it likely would be to just allow an extra hour of practice a week. How about a couple weekends a season with no football obligations or competitions, just a Saturday practice session. Do Texas bands do this?
3. When to start learning the drill should be at the discretion of the band within a district approved practice schedule. This is ever more important now that some schools are starting earlier and late summer heat waves in Texas are getting worse. What if a Houston area band wants to work on their show/drill earlier in the summer to have a buffer in case a hurricane disrupts practice?
4. I dont know what else to say except it is a shame that some students are having so much academic pressure placed on them in high school. I get the need for AP classes. However, marching band and other extracurricular activities (and yes sports too) teach a lot of things, like teamwork and leadership, that are vital to having a successful career.
5. I reviewed the new UIL score sheets. I stand by my earlier comments that they do not place enough weight on overall effect and are going to really stifle innovation. I dont see shows like the LD Bell shows of the late 2000s or the ton of unique and interesting Texas shows of the 2010s with this judging system, especially now that the UIL championships are every year. I fear Texas shows will all have very similar formats and have a serious lack of overall effect. To me, that scoring system looks like something you would use to judge a traditional style football half time marching band show and not a competitive corps style marching band. Makes me wonder if that was that the point? Hmmmm
I dont mean to be too harsh on the UIL system, I mean listen to how well these Texas kids play. There are things being done right. I have watched Texas bands as a whole get stronger for over three decades, culminating in 2019 with the performances at BOA San Antonio and those Texas performances at Grand Nationals. However, the changes that have been implemented in recent years and the apparent inability to allow more flexibility within individual programs is having an impact and not a good one.
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