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Post by trumpette123 on Nov 18, 2023 20:40:31 GMT -6
Hmm... if BA is really splitting from Cartwright that would be earthshattering. What has it been 17 years with him? BA is great but I think finding a new identity would be difficult after one so cemented in a program like BA. Did Steve Vento used to work for BA back in the day?? That documentary *is gold if any of you haven't seen it. I do think that like Bell, maybe the run is over and it is time to move on. Yes he did! I truly don’t think he would with the footprint that him and Lindsey have on Blue Springs. Tim Allshouse and them are super close. In other thread we mentioned how Directors have a larger impact than designers. Is losing Cartwright going to drastically change the program?
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Post by marimba11 on Nov 19, 2023 15:08:18 GMT -6
Hmm... if BA is really splitting from Cartwright that would be earthshattering. What has it been 17 years with him? BA is great but I think finding a new identity would be difficult after one so cemented in a program like BA. Did Steve Vento used to work for BA back in the day?? That documentary *is gold if any of you haven't seen it. I do think that like Bell, maybe the run is over and it is time to move on. Yes he did! I truly don’t think he would with the footprint that him and Lindsey have on Blue Springs. Tim Allshouse and them are super close. In other thread we mentioned how Directors have a larger impact than designers. Is losing Cartwright going to drastically change the program? It’ll definitely be test!
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Post by atlas23 on Jan 19, 2024 13:28:10 GMT -6
Is there any new information on this? I just saw the post asking for a new color guard director at Broken Arrow! Very interested to see what happens, especially due to the bond between FJM and Wes... is he staying as designer?
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charredbrown
Senior Member
Morton Alum, currently teaching band at Lutheran North High School in MI
Posts: 87
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Post by charredbrown on Jan 25, 2024 11:07:04 GMT -6
Hmm... if BA is really splitting from Cartwright that would be earthshattering. What has it been 17 years with him? BA is great but I think finding a new identity would be difficult after one so cemented in a program like BA. Did Steve Vento used to work for BA back in the day?? That documentary *is gold if any of you haven't seen it. I do think that like Bell, maybe the run is over and it is time to move on. Steve Vento coming back would be neat. I’m hoping Jordan Lalama is in the running now that he’s proven himself with O’Fallon 🤞🏻 but ultimately just want someone who will be kind to the kids and motivate them in a healthy way. Super late to the party but I freaking love Jordan. He worked with my alma mater (after I graduated smh) and his input did wonders for our design aesthetic and visual appeal. Fantastic guy.
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Post by okie7494 on Jan 28, 2024 16:20:07 GMT -6
BA off year???
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Post by supersound on Jan 29, 2024 0:43:41 GMT -6
They still have an incredibly strong foundation. Also, while I love Cartwright a breathe of fresh air will probably do Broken Arrow good. We can only have so many esoteric shows that are vaguely inspirational.
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Post by ilikeguard on Jan 29, 2024 14:12:16 GMT -6
If anything, I expect a possible rocky start followed by a better BA than we've seen in a decade (excluding 2021, of course). I have total faith in the Kelli Pence era. I think we'll only see good things out of them!
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Post by bandirectorman on Jan 29, 2024 21:39:58 GMT -6
Cartwright isn’t worth it. Talented, but overall not well aligned with high school music EDUCATION.
A hired gun that band needed to have to achieve a certain ‘placement’.
Plenty of programs sold their souls for this garbage.
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Post by bigtrombone on Jan 30, 2024 8:26:54 GMT -6
If anything, I expect a possible rocky start followed by a better BA than we've seen in a decade (excluding 2021, of course). I have total faith in the Kelli Pence era. I think we'll only see good things out of them! I do expect 2024 will be a bit of a rebuilding year for Broken Arrow. They'll probably finish behind Blue Springs at St. Louis but will definitely finish top half of finals at Grand Nationals (if they go) and may have a shot at a medal there as well (though it will be tough against Avon, Carmel, and potentially Tarpon Springs). Even so, I do believe that Broken Arrow this coming season will build a strong foundation for 2025 and beyond. If anything I do NOT expect they'll have a William Mason 2017-esque season. If that were to happen I would be absolutely shocked (and a little bit sad.)
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Post by atlas23 on Jan 30, 2024 15:45:42 GMT -6
If anything, I expect a possible rocky start followed by a better BA than we've seen in a decade (excluding 2021, of course). I have total faith in the Kelli Pence era. I think we'll only see good things out of them! I'd have to agree, the Kelli Pence era is one to be reconned with. I expect that these next few years will be extremely rocky. I'd have to estimate that in 2025 or even 2026 they will have a new foundation built. I really enjoyed their show this year but you could ultimately see their weaknesses and things that needed to be strengthened. Obviously this can all be due to transitioning and will take time to have a somewhat new culture built. I don't see Broken Arrow starting back at square one but who knows! Cartwright (outside looking in) seems he could be nearing a "retirement" or "burnout" because if you look at the shows under his coordination theres multiple repeats (i.e., Rosemount 2023 and Mustang 2018) [And might as well say it, Prosper 2023 and Broken Arrow 2019], I understand on re-using shows thats what our director did as it was a cheaper alternative to going through custom arrangments and having a sole program designer. But to be sought out by programs, you'd think he would be defining new standards or pushing the envelope with new designs. I just hope theres some exclusitivity for his programs, I mean, I haven't notice anyone performing Broken Arrows past shows, at least to my knowledge. I would have to agree with the statement that "placement" seems to be the focus of Cartwright's vision and lacking in an educational standpoint. There are many horror stories about Cartwright ultimatley traumatizing students and rather creating a safe environment for students the sole focus is about winning, at least from what i've heard.
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Post by ilikeguard on Jan 30, 2024 21:56:16 GMT -6
If anything, I expect a possible rocky start followed by a better BA than we've seen in a decade (excluding 2021, of course). I have total faith in the Kelli Pence era. I think we'll only see good things out of them! I do expect 2024 will be a bit of a rebuilding year for Broken Arrow. They'll probably finish behind Blue Springs at St. Louis but will definitely finish top half of finals at Grand Nationals (if they go) and may have a shot at a medal there as well (though it will be tough against Avon, Carmel, and potentially Tarpon Springs). Even so, I do believe that Broken Arrow this coming season will build a strong foundation for 2025 and beyond. If anything I do NOT expect they'll have a William Mason 2017-esque season. If that were to happen I would be absolutely shocked (and a little bit sad.) Agreed about St. Louis. I may be a BA homer (my spirit lives there), but I wouldn’t be mad about it! I’m enjoying Blue Springs’ spotlight right now. It’s very deserved!
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Post by marimba11 on Jan 31, 2024 22:33:48 GMT -6
I’m a huge Cartwright fan but yes there have been a lot of repeats of shows, even going back to Harrison 14/15 similar to Prosper 2018.
In any event, there is a time for everything and I’d imagine maybe it’s just time for BA to move on. But it’s certainly big shoes to fill. Does Wes travel to all the programs he designs for throughout the season? I wonder if he travels all the way to Mason/ Kingsport ect.
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Post by dbbandalum on Feb 1, 2024 0:41:51 GMT -6
I’m a huge Cartwright fan but yes there have been a lot of repeats of shows, even going back to Harrison 14/15 similar to Prosper 2018. In any event, there is a time for everything and I’d imagine maybe it’s just time for BA to move on. But it’s certainly big shoes to fill. Does Wes travel to all the programs he designs for throughout the season? I wonder if he travels all the way to Mason/ Kingsport ect. I don't know if he comes down to Kingsport every year, but I remember him coming down in 2016 and 17
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Post by bigtrombone on Feb 9, 2024 8:05:17 GMT -6
I’m a huge Cartwright fan but yes there have been a lot of repeats of shows, even going back to Harrison 14/15 similar to Prosper 2018. In any event, there is a time for everything and I’d imagine maybe it’s just time for BA to move on. But it’s certainly big shoes to fill. Does Wes travel to all the programs he designs for throughout the season? I wonder if he travels all the way to Mason/ Kingsport ect. I don't know if he comes down to Kingsport every year, but I remember him coming down in 2016 and 17 I think he's made the trip to Rosemount the last couple of years, but not sure if he was there last year. I know that both Leon May & Michael Rosales have made a trip to Rosemount every year since 2019 (2020 excluded).
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Post by atlas23 on Feb 9, 2024 18:24:17 GMT -6
It’s fascinating to see what shows he’s done, honestly, I would have to say while reusing shows can cause “discussion” its also unique to see what he does design-wise to rejuvenate the production. I recently found out he designs for a lot of programs that have built a name in the marching band world and you can see sprinkles of his style across them; Brownsburg, Broken Arrow, Camdenton, Dobyns-Bennett, Pearland(?), Prosper, Rosemount, Stephen A. Austin(?), William Mason, Washington. I know he used to write for Harrison but i’m not sure who writes for them.
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Post by bandirectorman on Feb 12, 2024 17:13:53 GMT -6
It’s fascinating to see what shows he’s done, honestly, I would have to say while reusing shows can cause “discussion” its also unique to see what he does design-wise to rejuvenate the production. I recently found out he designs for a lot of programs that have built a name in the marching band world and you can see sprinkles of his style across them; Brownsburg, Broken Arrow, Camdenton, Dobyns-Bennett, Pearland(?), Prosper, Rosemount, Stephen A. Austin(?), William Mason, Washington. I know he used to write for Harrison but i’m not sure who writes for them.
Basically, this sounds a lot like building a home within a community that involves the same builder & subcontractors. No matter how much you want to do 'custom', there's always going to be similarities. I recall bringing up an uncomfortable topic regarding 'mercenaries' within this art and encouraged high school band directors who field marching bands to try to design their own shows (or learn!). The fact that people remember the fantastic performances of the students.. but also how similar their shows are to the adult designer who couldn't pull off a custom design.. says it all. Nothing unique enough about the production, no matter where it placed. A lot of the same. Too much of the same.
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Post by hewhowaits on Feb 13, 2024 7:08:02 GMT -6
It’s fascinating to see what shows he’s done, honestly, I would have to say while reusing shows can cause “discussion” its also unique to see what he does design-wise to rejuvenate the production. I recently found out he designs for a lot of programs that have built a name in the marching band world and you can see sprinkles of his style across them; Brownsburg, Broken Arrow, Camdenton, Dobyns-Bennett, Pearland(?), Prosper, Rosemount, Stephen A. Austin(?), William Mason, Washington. I know he used to write for Harrison but i’m not sure who writes for them.
Basically, this sounds a lot like building a home within a community that involves the same builder & subcontractors. No matter how much you want to do 'custom', there's always going to be similarities. I recall bringing up an uncomfortable topic regarding 'mercenaries' within this art and encouraged high school band directors who field marching bands to try to design their own shows (or learn!). The fact that people remember the fantastic performances of the students.. but also how similar their shows are to the adult designer who couldn't pull off a custom design.. says it all. Nothing unique enough about the production, no matter where it placed. A lot of the same. Too much of the same. Would you describe the William Mason shows of the last several years as "a lot of the same, too much of the same" or are they an exception in your view?
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Post by horntrumpetdad on Feb 13, 2024 9:47:27 GMT -6
It’s fascinating to see what shows he’s done, honestly, I would have to say while reusing shows can cause “discussion” its also unique to see what he does design-wise to rejuvenate the production. I recently found out he designs for a lot of programs that have built a name in the marching band world and you can see sprinkles of his style across them; Brownsburg, Broken Arrow, Camdenton, Dobyns-Bennett, Pearland(?), Prosper, Rosemount, Stephen A. Austin(?), William Mason, Washington. I know he used to write for Harrison but i’m not sure who writes for them.
Basically, this sounds a lot like building a home within a community that involves the same builder & subcontractors. No matter how much you want to do 'custom', there's always going to be similarities. I recall bringing up an uncomfortable topic regarding 'mercenaries' within this art and encouraged high school band directors who field marching bands to try to design their own shows (or learn!).
The fact that people remember the fantastic performances of the students.. but also how similar their shows are to the adult designer who couldn't pull off a custom design.. says it all. Nothing unique enough about the production, no matter where it placed. A lot of the same. Too much of the same. I mean, this is how marching band shows started off, for the most part, and it's "the way things were" in my geographical region when I was in high school marching band in the 80s. Homemade shows featuring largely non-CR music available in the public domain. We used to joke that in order to come up with the on-field formations, our director would toss a piece of rope into the air, and whatever shape it made when it landed, is what we'd recreate on the field. And that might have even been half-true! It touches on another subject that's probably sore and I feel like people tend to avoid, which is just the sheer cost of the marching arts these days. 3rd party show creation is a significant part of it. This year I'll spend $1,600 on my two kids' basic band membership fees, which really just covers the cost of the 3rd party marching show, the cost of uniform maintenance, and some in-region travel. My family's fine, I value the arts and we're fortunate that we can afford it. But it's really sad to hear parents around me who say that marching band is simply "inaccessible" to their children and that they're having to pull their kids out of band when they make the transition from middle school to high school, simply because they can't afford it. This sort of marching band arms race and the high cost of supporting it, is knocking out a lot of people that would otherwise love to participate. I believe the arts should never be viewed as "inaccessible" at the high school level, yet here we are. Would a return to homemade shows featuring largely available non-CR material in the public domain help reduce the overall budget? I think it obviously would. Would it lead to more creativity and diversity among shows on the field? I don't know about that. I think directors are smart and they watch what the judges reward, and what the judges don't reward. I'm not sure it would spark a lot of unique shows because I think there are some pretty obvious "winning formulas" or at least "winning techniques" and as long as those are consistently rewarded by the judges, that's what we're going to see on the field. Just some of my thoughts. Also, I don't know anything about Cartwright, never heard of him aside from this thread, so my apologies for the tangent.
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Post by bandirectorman on Feb 13, 2024 15:23:59 GMT -6
Basically, this sounds a lot like building a home within a community that involves the same builder & subcontractors. No matter how much you want to do 'custom', there's always going to be similarities. I recall bringing up an uncomfortable topic regarding 'mercenaries' within this art and encouraged high school band directors who field marching bands to try to design their own shows (or learn!). The fact that people remember the fantastic performances of the students.. but also how similar their shows are to the adult designer who couldn't pull off a custom design.. says it all. Nothing unique enough about the production, no matter where it placed. A lot of the same. Too much of the same. Would you describe the William Mason shows of the last several years as "a lot of the same, too much of the same" or are they an exception in your view? Regardless of what I think, it's just a shame that the industry has become so reliant on a handful of people for their success ... and those people largely reside OUTSIDE of their districts and have a business arrangement with the group. It's art, so people are going to have differing opinions on what is great, good, cookie-cutter. When people begin confusing program design from band-to-band or see 'sprinkles' of a designer's 'influence' across the spectrum, kind of a sad, sad world right there, in my opinion. It doesn't take away from student achievement, but it is a sad state of affairs that BOA, the de facto governing body of American marching band competition, has stayed out of. Has not regulated. Doesn't care about. If 1,000 Ohio schools show up and don't place above 50th, that's OK, or if there's still this elitist disparity between who qualifies for what round based on something as silly as a 'Top 12' of similarly-sized, largely similarly-budgeted programs, that's actually where the rot is. Band directors would take more risks and there would be far more innovation in music education on the field if not for the silly visual stuff and the people who have taken over the instrumental music activity. Only my opinion. Take that how you will. Just one person.
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Post by marimba11 on Feb 13, 2024 18:27:02 GMT -6
It is possible to look expensive without actually spending tons of money. I think DB's fees have always been pretty low, comparatively. Even Bell reused a lot of props ect, took busses instead of planes. I don't judge any program for not traveling or taking years off of doing big trips, especially right now.
However, I will say outside of a select few bands, if you do not have a pretty star-studded design team (which costs) you will suffer competitively. Just seems to be a fact these days.
Fort Mill for example does just about everything in-house for design of the competitive show... that is clearly hurting them in the game. Having a program coordinator when the directors just have to teach the show really seems to be a winning formula. Now Fort Mill has high fees, but that's because of travel/ new uniforms ect., they're not paying Wes or Alan Spaeth.
If there is a will to reduce costs and for communities to fundraise out the wazoo, things can be done. But that also comes from parents not just directors.
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Post by ilikeguard on Feb 14, 2024 13:02:18 GMT -6
It is possible to look expensive without actually spending tons of money. I think DB's fees have always been pretty low, comparatively. Even Bell reused a lot of props ect, took busses instead of planes. I don't judge any program for not traveling or taking years off of doing big trips, especially right now. However, I will say outside of a select few bands, if you do not have a pretty star-studded design team (which costs) you will suffer competitively. Just seems to be a fact these days. Fort Mill for example does just about everything in-house for design of the competitive show... that is clearly hurting them in the game. Having a program coordinator when the directors just have to teach the show really seems to be a winning formula. Now Fort Mill has high fees, but that's because of travel/ new uniforms ect., they're not paying Wes or Alan Spaeth. If there is a will to reduce costs and for communities to fundraise out the wazoo, things can be done. But that also comes from parents not just directors. I just recently visited NC and loved it enough that I've been pestering my partner to look into a job there. So if you're reading this, Fort Mill, I'll only be a state away and will work for you pro bono
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Post by marimba11 on Feb 14, 2024 13:59:27 GMT -6
It is possible to look expensive without actually spending tons of money. I think DB's fees have always been pretty low, comparatively. Even Bell reused a lot of props ect, took busses instead of planes. I don't judge any program for not traveling or taking years off of doing big trips, especially right now. However, I will say outside of a select few bands, if you do not have a pretty star-studded design team (which costs) you will suffer competitively. Just seems to be a fact these days. Fort Mill for example does just about everything in-house for design of the competitive show... that is clearly hurting them in the game. Having a program coordinator when the directors just have to teach the show really seems to be a winning formula. Now Fort Mill has high fees, but that's because of travel/ new uniforms ect., they're not paying Wes or Alan Spaeth. If there is a will to reduce costs and for communities to fundraise out the wazoo, things can be done. But that also comes from parents not just directors. I just recently visited NC and loved it enough that I've been pestering my partner to look into a job there. So if you're reading this, Fort Mill, I'll only be a state away and will work for you pro bono EXCELLENT! You can be program coordinator. Hired!! 😂
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Post by hewhowaits on Feb 14, 2024 15:26:18 GMT -6
It is possible to look expensive without actually spending tons of money. I think DB's fees have always been pretty low, comparatively. Even Bell reused a lot of props ect, took busses instead of planes. I don't judge any program for not traveling or taking years off of doing big trips, especially right now. However, I will say outside of a select few bands, if you do not have a pretty star-studded design team (which costs) you will suffer competitively. Just seems to be a fact these days. Fort Mill for example does just about everything in-house for design of the competitive show... that is clearly hurting them in the game. Having a program coordinator when the directors just have to teach the show really seems to be a winning formula. Now Fort Mill has high fees, but that's because of travel/ new uniforms ect., they're not paying Wes or Alan Spaeth. If there is a will to reduce costs and for communities to fundraise out the wazoo, things can be done. But that also comes from parents not just directors. I just recently visited NC and loved it enough that I've been pestering my partner to look into a job there. So if you're reading this, Fort Mill, I'll only be a state away and will work for you pro bono Depending on WHERE in North Carolina, you could be daily commute distance to Fort Mill or six plus hours each way without traffic.
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