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Post by paddy on Dec 8, 2023 7:30:27 GMT -6
In the last 24 hours I’ve had 2 news feeds I follow pass this along: www.friendlyatheist.com/p/the-theme-of-this-public-school-marching?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=webAs someone who literally watched a guard perform a show based upon the Sandy Hook Elementary School Shooting, and watched as a Winds group has their season cancelled over a show with Soviet era army imagery because of the military actions of Russia, I find it interesting when people react to these types of artistic decisions. I also find that certain members of our design community could do a better job with artistic decisions.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Dec 8, 2023 7:44:06 GMT -6
In the last 24 hours I’ve had 2 news feeds I follow pass this along: www.friendlyatheist.com/p/the-theme-of-this-public-school-marching?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=webAs someone who literally watched a guard perform a show based upon the Sandy Hook Elementary School Shooting, and watched as a Winds group has their season cancelled over a show with Soviet era army imagery because of the military actions of Russia, I find it interesting when people react to these types of artistic decisions. I also find that certain members of our design community could do a better job with artistic decisions. As a Christian I’ll admit that the show design and theme made even me uncomfortable. But I don’t know that LH should be “cancelled” over it. What I tend to question is when adults push their agendas onto children, and we can certainly see a massive amount of evidence of that in marching show and indoor show design these days!!!
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Post by paddy on Dec 8, 2023 8:06:23 GMT -6
In the last 24 hours I’ve had 2 news feeds I follow pass this along: www.friendlyatheist.com/p/the-theme-of-this-public-school-marching?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=webAs someone who literally watched a guard perform a show based upon the Sandy Hook Elementary School Shooting, and watched as a Winds group has their season cancelled over a show with Soviet era army imagery because of the military actions of Russia, I find it interesting when people react to these types of artistic decisions. I also find that certain members of our design community could do a better job with artistic decisions. As a Christian I’ll admit that the show design and theme made even me uncomfortable. But I don’t know that LH should be “cancelled” over it. What I tend to question is when adults push their agendas onto children, and we can certainly see a massive amount of evidence of that in marching show and indoor show design these days!!! I am not sure I was uncomfortable with it as I appreciated the way they used their local history and cultural background to create something unique and interesting, but I also understand why people may not like it. It is an interesting result of marching band becoming more of a production with characters and themes. I don’t believe this was a group of adults pushing an agenda but I can see how people interpreted it that way. As marching band shows become more theatrical (and indoor shows already are) you are going to see more of the “community standard” metrics used like you see with plays and musicals in the drama department. When I was in HS in the early 90s our drama department was not allowed to perform Grease because of that.
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Post by thewho on Dec 8, 2023 8:22:59 GMT -6
Hey, can we call in the Northmont color guard really quickly here?
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Post by bigtrombone on Dec 8, 2023 8:46:38 GMT -6
I think there will always be designs that walk that fine line on what's comfortable and what's uncomfortable. Back in 2010, Irondale (MN) did a show that was themed around the Seven Deadly Sins. It was, to put it lightly, quite polarizing. At one show that both Irondale & Lincoln were at (I was in middle school at the time, this was my older sibling's senior year) during Irondale's performance, a small child turned to their parents and asked them, "What's lust?"
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Post by ilikeguard on Dec 8, 2023 10:04:14 GMT -6
As a Christian I’ll admit that the show design and theme made even me uncomfortable. But I don’t know that LH should be “cancelled” over it. What I tend to question is when adults push their agendas onto children, and we can certainly see a massive amount of evidence of that in marching show and indoor show design these days!!! I am not sure I was uncomfortable with it as I appreciated the way they used their local history and cultural background to create something unique and interesting, but I also understand why people may not like it. It is an interesting result of marching band becoming more of a production with characters and themes. I don’t believe this was a group of adults pushing an agenda but I can see how people interpreted it that way. As marching band shows become more theatrical (and indoor shows already are) you are going to see more of the “community standard” metrics used like you see with plays and musicals in the drama department. When I was in HS in the early 90s our drama department was not allowed to perform Grease because of that. I definitely saw it as less preachy and way more about the cultural background of the area. A lot of people pointed out that it seemed more inspired by the culture of the rural South than anything else. It’s a well performed and well designed show, but not one I would have personally done knowing how easy it would be to misinterpret. I can’t blame people for feeling uncomfortable when faced with a complex theme, especially if it’s one that isn’t unambiguously conveyed – a lot of that discomfort is just your brain trying to parse mixed signals between what you’re seeing in the context of your personal experiences. Let’s also remember when we see backlash for stuff like this that people make very good money on *intentionally* misinterpreting and misrepresenting things in order to get a rise out of people. So much of the attention I’ve seen on this show from outside of the band world has felt very manufactured. It’s nothing different from what you’d see on a certain animal-named “news” network that has found itself in a number of defamation lawsuits.
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Post by pitplayer19 on Dec 8, 2023 12:37:27 GMT -6
It's also worth noting that there is a good chance there may have been concerns raised within the program and they were probably addressed. I know some parents in my alumni group didn't think the musical selections were appropriate for one of our shows, and there was a response by the director and a vetting system put in place so it wouldn't happen again. Something similar may have occurred. I think the parents probably could have/did speak up if they had concerns.
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Post by yayband914 on Dec 8, 2023 12:44:07 GMT -6
There are also atheists out there, myself included, who still enjoyed the show for what it is regardless of its thematic content.
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Post by philodemus on Dec 8, 2023 12:46:27 GMT -6
So... Southern atheist, here.
'Promote' is the key word here. I never had a preachy vibe from the program at all. More 'local color' than any type of coercive instruction. I don't think I would have done such a show precisely because it might attract this kind of culture war stuff, but I don't have any personal objection to it. The music is beautiful and I liked seeing something different on the field.
The blogpost points out that the whole 'girls in skirts, boys in pants' thing might have made some queer kids uncomfortable, which is actually a thought I had while watching. That strikes me as a more legitimate point... but, I mean, folks wear costumes in plays that could be pretty different from their street clothes. Isn't this the same thing?
But... well, like I said, Southern atheist. Growing up, there were lots of times when adults or other kids said, "Let's pray," in public settings and I had to choose my battles. Most of the time, I knew that it brought joy to the people around me and was important to them... and it in no way hurt me to cast my eyes down and say nothing for a minute. Live and let live, I suppose.
Had I been a Lake Hamilton kid in 2023, I think that's probably the way I'd have thought about it.
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Post by marimba11 on Dec 8, 2023 13:37:46 GMT -6
Yeah ... I agree w Cindy, it made me a bit uncomfortable and certainly wouldn't be a show I would pick for kids these days; but if Cadets can get away with 2017, Cavaliers in 2016, maybe even Bell 2009 - those are arguably the same or worse.
Besides the season is over, the kids made semis, I say just live and let live! Hemant Mehta obviously has too much time on his hands to go after a high school show.
I think the ACLU would say LH can express whatever they want but are their levels of appropriateness for high school kids... also yes. It certainly isn't wrong for them to do a show like this IMO, but it will invite critique, even if I think slightly unjust.
Also, I'd take a look at Summerville this year, show had direct references to God, the bible, social norms that are not the norm now... ect. And their long-time director is certainly not a right-winger lol
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Post by boahistorybuff on Dec 8, 2023 17:39:15 GMT -6
These debates began as far back as when bands started doing theme based shows. Marching band shows are more artistic now more then ever. Often times art can cause some controversy. There are many past shows that were controversial back in their day that are now viewed as iconic shows.
My take on Lake Hamilton's show was that it was a bit of an historic look at the culture of their community from a religious aspect. There were some parts of the theme that I was a bit unsure of, but they did a really good job with it. It was unique and the kids really had a connection to it and as an audience member, I really felt that connection. After watching the entire semi finalist group, Lake Hamilton was one of the most memorable shows.
I actually find it encouraging that a show is garnering a little controversy. I hope more bands continue to take some risks in their themes. It puts the art in artistic and adds some variety to the array of programs that are now competing. During my freshman year, way back in 1988, we performed Andrew Lloyd Webber's requiem. It was full of religious symbolism. We took a lot of heat for that being a public school performing a show with a lot of Christian symbolism. I actually loved that show.
Marching bands should also have the freedom to explore other religious (Muslim, Hindu, Jewish) themes as well, without the fear of getting pushback or criticized. I am very much a proponent of a secular society and separation of church and state. At the same time, religion is still apart of the cultural identity for the vast majority of people. That will then surface in our art, just like pop culture and major historic events.
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Post by statechamp1239 on Dec 8, 2023 19:37:15 GMT -6
These debates began as far back as when bands started doing theme based shows. Marching band shows are more artistic now more then ever. Often times art can cause some controversy. There are many past shows that were controversial back in their day that are now viewed as iconic shows. My take on Lake Hamilton's show was that it was a bit of an historic look at the culture of their community from a religious aspect. There were some parts of the theme that I was a bit unsure of, but they did a really good job with it. It was unique and the kids really had a connection to it and as an audience member, I really felt that connection. After watching the entire semi finalist group, Lake Hamilton was one of the most memorable shows. I actually find it encouraging that a show is garnering a little controversy. I hope more bands continue to take some risks in their themes. It puts the art in artistic and adds some variety to the array of programs that are now competing. During my freshman year, way back in 1988, we performed Andrew Lloyd Webber's requiem. It was full of religious symbolism. We took a lot of heat for that being a public school performing a show with a lot of Christian symbolism. I actually loved that show. Marching bands should also have the freedom to explore other religious (Muslim, Hindu, Jewish) themes as well, without the fear of getting pushback or criticized. I am very much a proponent of a secular society and separation of church and state. At the same time, religion is still apart of the cultural identity for the vast majority of people. That will then surface in our art, just like pop culture and major historic events. 100% Agreed. Speaking of controversy since you're in the MI scene, I've always wanted to know if Reeths-Puffer got any backlash when they put a swastika in their drill back in 1995 for their WWII show?
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Post by boahistorybuff on Dec 8, 2023 20:02:09 GMT -6
Yes that move by Reeths-Puffer got A TON of backlash. Obviously, is was used in a historical context as in the evil invaders of Europe. But yes, it was a shocker. They kept it in the show too.
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Post by kdivine on Dec 8, 2023 21:09:27 GMT -6
I may say more later but for now I will just recall that Carmel took 2nd in GN finals with a show called "Prophecy" that featured a piece of music called "Jeremiah" and a blanket flyover that re-created Moses parting the Red Sea [which is technically more "miracle" than "prophecy" but, hey, topical accuracy isn't all that it's made out to be. 🤪]
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Dec 8, 2023 21:24:53 GMT -6
The blogpost points out that the whole 'girls in skirts, boys in pants' thing might have made some queer kids uncomfortable, which is actually a thought I had while watching. That strikes me as a more legitimate point... but, I mean, folks wear costumes in plays that could be pretty different from their street clothes. Isn't this the same thing? The world turns. There was some mild controversy in the drum corps world in 2010 because the men in a couple color guards (Glassmen and Academy, I think) were wearing skirts.
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Post by ilikeguard on Dec 8, 2023 21:32:12 GMT -6
I may say more later but for now I will just recall that Carmel took 2nd in GN finals with a show called "Prophecy" that featured a piece of music called "Jeremiah" and a blanket flyover that re-created Moses parting the Red Sea [which is technically more "miracle" than "prophecy" but, hey, topical accuracy isn't all that it's made out to be. 🤪] Barring the cultural context that prevents this, I’m all for treating biblical stories with the same energy as Greek mythology or Shakespearean plays. They’re all fundamental literature within the history of Western culture and the English language and all great stories (even if they’ve unfortunately been co-opted by extremism). One must acknowledge that the bible slaps
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Post by paddy on Dec 8, 2023 22:19:25 GMT -6
I definitely did not have “One must acknowledge that the bible slaps” on my bingo card for this thread but I’m here for it.
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Post by kdivine on Dec 8, 2023 22:21:22 GMT -6
I definitely did not have “One must acknowledge that the bible slaps” on my bingo card for this thread but I’m here for it. [milk snort]
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Post by marimba11 on Dec 8, 2023 22:24:00 GMT -6
I may say more later but for now I will just recall that Carmel took 2nd in GN finals with a show called "Prophecy" that featured a piece of music called "Jeremiah" and a blanket flyover that re-created Moses parting the Red Sea [which is technically more "miracle" than "prophecy" but, hey, topical accuracy isn't all that it's made out to be. 🤪] Haha… don’t know how we missed that!
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Post by marimba11 on Dec 8, 2023 22:25:26 GMT -6
You all just wait… Carmel is going to get that viking boat out of the garage and next year the great flood will be upon LOS
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Post by kdivine on Dec 8, 2023 22:37:47 GMT -6
The blogpost points out that the whole 'girls in skirts, boys in pants' thing might have made some queer kids uncomfortable, which is actually a thought I had while watching. That strikes me as a more legitimate point... but, I mean, folks wear costumes in plays that could be pretty different from their street clothes. Isn't this the same thing? Of the ones I knew to be queer/fluid, it seemed like just as you say-- this is a part to play and in no way defines them off- field. I mean, Neil Patrick Harris, who is gay, played a straight dude on How I Met Your Mother" for years, and Eric Stonestreet, who is straight, played a gay dude on "Modern Family" for even longer. As to the unis themselves, they were spandex and intended to evoke small town Sunday-go-to-meetin' clothes of the early 30's. Women, with a few exceptions, generally wore skirts and dresses. Men wore ties and coats. It was a more formal situation than we live in now.
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Post by kdivine on Dec 8, 2023 22:43:38 GMT -6
You all just wait… Carmel is going to get that viking boat out of the garage and next year the great flood will be upon LOS [Whips head around...] Viking boat? Spill, please, the tea.
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Post by dbbandalum on Dec 9, 2023 1:31:29 GMT -6
In the last 24 hours I’ve had 2 news feeds I follow pass this along: www.friendlyatheist.com/p/the-theme-of-this-public-school-marching?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=webAs someone who literally watched a guard perform a show based upon the Sandy Hook Elementary School Shooting, and watched as a Winds group has their season cancelled over a show with Soviet era army imagery because of the military actions of Russia, I find it interesting when people react to these types of artistic decisions. I also find that certain members of our design community could do a better job with artistic decisions. Although I haven't read the article yet, I recognize the name of the website and the guy who wrote it. They put out a hit piece on DBs 2014 show simply because it featured crosses. The article they wrote about us was completely uninformed and basically said DB was forcing its students to partake in a "jesus-tastic" show. Even though the students had every right to not partake in the show, and the show was about WWII with the crosses representing gravestones. So before even reading, I'm inclined to believe this article is utter nonsense.
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Post by Allohak on Dec 9, 2023 8:46:39 GMT -6
You all just wait… Carmel is going to get that viking boat out of the garage and next year the great flood will be upon LOS [Whips head around...] Viking boat? Spill, please, the tea. Whoosh
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Post by paddy on Dec 9, 2023 12:14:58 GMT -6
In the last 24 hours I’ve had 2 news feeds I follow pass this along: www.friendlyatheist.com/p/the-theme-of-this-public-school-marching?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=webAs someone who literally watched a guard perform a show based upon the Sandy Hook Elementary School Shooting, and watched as a Winds group has their season cancelled over a show with Soviet era army imagery because of the military actions of Russia, I find it interesting when people react to these types of artistic decisions. I also find that certain members of our design community could do a better job with artistic decisions. Although I haven't read the article yet, I recognize the name of the website and the guy who wrote it. They put out a hit piece on DBs 2014 show simply because it featured crosses. The article they wrote about us was completely uninformed and basically said DB was forcing its students to partake in a "jesus-tastic" show. Even though the students had every right to not partake in the show, and the show was about WWII with the crosses representing gravestones. So before even reading, I'm inclined to believe this article is utter nonsense. I agree it is nonsense, but it is also a narrative that is out there that I ran across from amazingly disparate sources.
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Post by philodemus on Dec 9, 2023 13:28:19 GMT -6
This situation reminds me of how much I cringe whenever the outside world discovers our little universe of the marching arts. There was some Wall Street Journal reporter at Grand Nats a few years ago how speculated a Bourbon County show was about a gay kid going to hell due to the presence of a rainbow umbrella.
Yeah.
Sometimes it goes right--like when David Byrne discovered and fell in love with winterguard--but far too often they try to drag us into their culture war garbage and I'm like, "No! This is my refuge from all that! It doesn't belong here! Go away!"
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Post by kdivine on Dec 9, 2023 23:17:55 GMT -6
The part of all of this that gets to me the most, as an LH band parent, is the sheer vitriol with which some of the people on the atheist site comments are trolling the kids. I know better than to respond and get into a useless flamewar, but at the same time I want to unleash the hounds on them. I have full confidence in our directors and I know that we are in the legal right to use historical and literary sources. But there were people on some of the comments that were making very disgusting comments about my son-he was the sax soloist on "How Great Thou Art" That part got a lot of hit--since there wasn't a whole lot for him to do logistically until the song was over, so they turned him around and had him kneel as the "Sinner Repentant," otherwise he'd have been standing there looking dopey for about two and a half minutes. Out of small logistical solutions comes a lot of controversy, I guess, and there were several comments about him that were.....quite detrimental , lets say. For my part, it's probably just better that I stopped reading.
ilikeguard said: >>Barring the cultural context that prevents this, I’m all for treating biblical stories with the same energy as Greek mythology or Shakespearean plays. They’re all fundamental literature within the history of Western culture and the English language and all great stories (even if they’ve unfortunately been co-opted by extremism). One must acknowledge that the bible slaps<<
Yes, this. I used to teach world history [I've since switched to computer science but history is what I've got my master's in] and I used to tell Protestant parents much the same thing about the students learning the basic tenets of paganism, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and Catholic and Orthodox Christianity because the stories of those religions help explain the world we now live in. I also as a high school student had to read rather a bit of Psalms and the New Testament out of the KJV Bible in my BritLit class because of its literary and historical significance. I think the fact that some people want to keep that story hidden, from both sides of the house, makes the world a rather grey place.
pitplayer19 said: >>It's also worth noting that there is a good chance there may have been concerns raised within the program and they were probably addressed. I know some parents in my alumni group didn't think the musical selections were appropriate for one of our shows, and there was a response by the director and a vetting system put in place so it wouldn't happen again. Something similar may have occurred. I think the parents probably could have/did speak up if they had concerns.<<
There were and they were. I personally raised a couple of eyebrows when talking with one of the assistant directors back during summer rehearsals band, but had my concerns addressed to my satisfaction, mostly on the effect the theme would have on judging outside of the state (turns out technical equipment issues were much more of a concern) and would we be ready for any blowback that might come.
Posted by boahistorybuffyesterday at 5:39pm
>>My take on Lake Hamilton's show was that it was a bit of an historic look at the culture of their community from a religious aspect. There were some parts of the theme that I was a bit unsure of, but they did a really good job with it. It was unique and the kids really had a connection to it and as an audience member, I really felt that connection. After watching the entire semi finalist group, Lake Hamilton was one of the most memorable shows.<<
Yeah. And it really wasn't a religious aspect but more of the fact that a traveling tent revival back in the early part of the 20th century in what was then a rather sparsely populated region of a rather sparsely populated state was something of a spectacle. Let's just say there wasn't much to do on a Tuesday night. The show followed the arrival [during the pre-show] of the tent, fire and brimstone preachingj [first movement], some repentin' and contritin' [second movement] some celebratin' [movement 3 and 4] and then teardown and moving on, leaving the small community back to it's own devices [movement 5];
And if there hadn't been total buy-in, trust me, the kids would have let the directors know in one way or another. We're talking about 14 to 18 year old kids, many of them without much of a filter. I know that rather a chunk of them are not particularly religiously inclined or literate, but the denomination in which they're not particularly religiously inclined or literate is some form of Baptist and for most of them there was at least an air of familiarity. All the comments I've seen in other places about "indocrinating" and "forcing on the students" are just overblown if you don't know the clientele (which they most obviously do not.)
Posted by boahistorybuffyesterday at 5:39pm >>I actually find it encouraging that a show is garnering a little controversy. I hope more bands continue to take some risks in their themes. It puts the art in artistic and [adds some variety to the array of programs that are now competing.
During my freshman year, way back in 1988, we performed Andrew Lloyd Webber's requiem. It was full of religious symbolism. We took a lot of heat for that being a public school performing a show with a lot of Christian symbolism. I actually loved that show.<<
And some bands will play it safe and some will not. Carmel played it safe by mostly removing any thought of a prop from their show. Bentonville's themes have been pretty benign the past 2 years [ladybugs and sunflowers, though the vomit of yellow they did at the end was just amazing]. DB did a safe show, though blue-painted guard alongside what was apparently their standard-issue uniforms was a little weird. Fisher's was a little bit out there [they must be sick of Christmas already] and Archbishop Alter made a pizza. On the field. I thought Avon was a bit edgy, though maybe I'm the only one who saw a second level of meaning in their show as I'm not even sure it was intentional.
Lloyd Webber is Jewish, yet he was firstly most famous for Jesus Christ Superstar. I think he is mostly a genius [mostly--Starlight Express is still a dud] but if a band were to do JCS or Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, would they be getting the same backlash that LH has right now?
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Post by Allohak on Dec 10, 2023 13:27:37 GMT -6
if a band were to do JCS or Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, would they be getting the same backlash that LH has right now? On one hand, no, because those are long-standing and well-known pieces of literature. However, no school receiving any local, state, or federal funding should have any activity incorporating any religious (pro or anti) over- or under-tones into any activity sponsored by the school. And yes, I have similar issue with Carmel's depiction of the parting of the Red Sea.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Dec 10, 2023 18:14:10 GMT -6
While I am not very religious, I am going to disagree here. Marching band shows are artistic expressions and are often telling a story. Whether you believe the parting of the Red Sea was historical fact or fiction, it is still a story. The Christian cross has appeared in drill designs hundreds of times over the last 40 years. There have also been shows that have displayed the Star of David. If you start prohibiting things like that then where does it end?There will always be those who want to take things to the extreme and will take things too far. Think about how many great pieces of classical music were either written for the church or whose meanings have a deep religious context. If you start banning religious symbols in the shows then there will be those that say certain pieces of music should be banned.
While I totally agree you can not preach or turn things into Sunday school in the public schools, religious material is very deeply rooted in music and art.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Dec 10, 2023 19:31:51 GMT -6
While I am not very religious, I am going to disagree here. Marching band shows are artistic expressions and are often telling a story. Whether you believe the parting of the Red Sea was historical fact or fiction, it is still a story. The Christian cross has appeared in drill designs hundreds of times over the last 40 years. There have also been shows that have displayed the Star of David. If you start prohibiting things like that then where does it end?There will always be those who want to take things to the extreme and will take things too far. Think about how many great pieces of classical music were either written for the church or whose meanings have a deep religious context. If you start banning religious symbols in the shows then there will be those that say certain pieces of music should be banned. While I totally agree you can not preach or turn things into Sunday school in the public schools, religious material is very deeply rooted in music and art. Great points here. I still can’t figure out exactly why the show made me so uneasy but I’m starting to do some real self reflection on it now that I’ve read all these comments and can more clearly see that the show was really just art and nothing overtly anti or pro-religion. I honestly think my initial reaction when watching it live at BOA Memphis was partially in response to knowing the awful backlash that would come because of it. Christians are so often inaccurately pigeonholed and I felt my hackles go up in response to knowing what was going to happen next. And sure enough there’s articles written like the one above. But mostly I just feel uncomfortable when children are made to carry the burden of adult ideas. It’s not their responsibility to handle this kind of backlash, nor is it necessary. I know I’m in the minority here, but I still feel like the whole concept was too controversial for kids to have to take on.
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