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Post by paddy on Dec 10, 2023 21:27:10 GMT -6
While I am not very religious, I am going to disagree here. Marching band shows are artistic expressions and are often telling a story. Whether you believe the parting of the Red Sea was historical fact or fiction, it is still a story. The Christian cross has appeared in drill designs hundreds of times over the last 40 years. There have also been shows that have displayed the Star of David. If you start prohibiting things like that then where does it end?There will always be those who want to take things to the extreme and will take things too far. Think about how many great pieces of classical music were either written for the church or whose meanings have a deep religious context. If you start banning religious symbols in the shows then there will be those that say certain pieces of music should be banned. While I totally agree you can not preach or turn things into Sunday school in the public schools, religious material is very deeply rooted in music and art. Great points here. I still can’t figure out exactly why the show made me so uneasy but I’m starting to do some real self reflection on it now that I’ve read all these comments and can more clearly see that the show was really just art and nothing overtly anti or pro-religion. I honestly think my initial reaction when watching it live at BOA Memphis was partially in response to knowing the awful backlash that would come because of it. Christians are so often inaccurately pigeonholed and I felt my hackles go up in response to knowing what was going to happen next. And sure enough there’s articles written like the one above. But mostly I just feel uncomfortable when children are made to carry the burden of adult ideas. It’s not their responsibility to handle this kind of backlash, nor is it necessary. I know I’m in the minority here, but I still feel like the whole concept was too controversial for kids to have to take on. I think the test for me personally over the years has been trying to ascertain if I am uncomfortable with the topic being broached (Christian themes, violence, racism, sex, sexual identity) or if I’m troubled by the choice of adults to ask kids to participate in the production of the topic. I don’t have a problem watching adults in Hair, I would have a problem watching HS kids in Hair. |
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Post by paddy on Dec 10, 2023 21:29:40 GMT -6
if a band were to do JCS or Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, would they be getting the same backlash that LH has right now? On one hand, no, because those are long-standing and well-known pieces of literature. However, no school receiving any local, state, or federal funding should have any activity incorporating any religious (pro or anti) over- or under-tones into any activity sponsored by the school. And yes, I have similar issue with Carmel's depiction of the parting of the Red Sea. So you’ve basically cut 75% of the classical source music from the repertoire of schools. Even private schools as almost all educational institutions in the US receive some level of federal funding. |
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Post by hewhowaits on Dec 11, 2023 7:01:19 GMT -6
On one hand, no, because those are long-standing and well-known pieces of literature. However, no school receiving any local, state, or federal funding should have any activity incorporating any religious (pro or anti) over- or under-tones into any activity sponsored by the school. And yes, I have similar issue with Carmel's depiction of the parting of the Red Sea. So you’ve basically cut 75% of the classical source music from the repertoire of schools. Even private schools as almost all educational institutions in the US receive some level of federal funding. Even though much classical music was originally composed as church music, in general playing that music does not jump to the level of religious overtones in the same was as depicting a story from a religious text or clearly referencing a church-based activity. Most casual observers don't know which works by Mozart were composed FOR church, but those same people can (usually) tell if a show is ABOUT church. FTR, I don't think Lake Hamilton's show was ABOUT church. It included reference to church-related activities but it was not ABOUT church. |
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Post by paddy on Dec 11, 2023 7:30:14 GMT -6
So you’ve basically cut 75% of the classical source music from the repertoire of schools. Even private schools as almost all educational institutions in the US receive some level of federal funding. Even though much classical music was originally composed as church music, in general playing that music does not jump to the level of religious overtones in the same was as depicting a story from a religious text or clearly referencing a church-based activity. Most casual observers don't know which works by Mozart were composed FOR church, but those same people can (usually) tell if a show is ABOUT church. FTR, I don't think Lake Hamilton's show was ABOUT church. It included reference to church-related activities but it was not ABOUT church. The post I was replying to was not that nuanced. |
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Post by Allohak on Dec 11, 2023 8:01:47 GMT -6
Even though much classical music was originally composed as church music, in general playing that music does not jump to the level of religious overtones in the same was as depicting a story from a religious text or clearly referencing a church-based activity. Most casual observers don't know which works by Mozart were composed FOR church, but those same people can (usually) tell if a show is ABOUT church. FTR, I don't think Lake Hamilton's show was ABOUT church. It included reference to church-related activities but it was not ABOUT church. The post I was replying to was not that nuanced. Read it again, I said what I said and I meant every word. |
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Post by paddy on Dec 11, 2023 9:06:00 GMT -6
The post I was replying to was not that nuanced. Read it again, I said what I said and I meant every word. I don’t need to read anything again. I very clearly understood what you were saying. |
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Post by LeanderMomma on Dec 11, 2023 12:54:36 GMT -6
I never knew Carmel parted the Red Sea. 😂 🌊
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Post by philodemus on Dec 11, 2023 15:39:15 GMT -6
So, once again, just for context... atheist, here.
The decision to never expose students in public schools to stories from religious narratives would be deciding to never expose them to...
Well, like, any narratives.
I want kids in my public school to read Milton's Paradise Lost, and Herrmann Hesse's Siddharta, and the Islamic poetry of Rumi. I want them to engage with those ideas on their own terms, respectfully. Obviously, I don't want anyone getting to the end of Paradise Lost and going, "And that's why you should all be Christians..." [or, if like me they found the Devil's arguments rather persuasive, saying the "And that's why you shouldn't."] but the idea that they should never even be exposed to those stories? Those stories that are some of the great achievements of the human literary tradition? That's ludicrously militant atheism and we all know [remember, I'm an atheist] there's nothing on this earth more obnoxious than a militant or missionary atheist.
There's a vast area of grey between school prayer [no thanks] and never discussing religion [no thanks] where a thoughtful education in the humanities ought to dwell. I think Carmel parting the Red Sea and Lake Hamilton playing Southern gospel falls perfectly into that happy zone.
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Post by kdivine on Dec 11, 2023 20:57:25 GMT -6
I never knew Carmel parted the Red Sea. 😂 🌊 It was at the end of the run, they did a flyover with a blue blanket to cover two largish blocks of band and then one of the color guard stomped the middle down. |
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Post by redteam1114 on Dec 11, 2023 23:01:47 GMT -6
I think there will always be designs that walk that fine line on what's comfortable and what's uncomfortable. Back in 2010, Irondale (MN) did a show that was themed around the Seven Deadly Sins. It was, to put it lightly, quite polarizing. At one show that both Irondale & Lincoln were at (I was in middle school at the time, this was my older sibling's senior year) during Irondale's performance, a small child turned to their parents and asked them, "What's lust?" Can absolutely 100% confirm as the older sibling. Lincoln and Irondale were at two shows together that fall, and speaking of lust, that brings up an interesting story. We were on back to back to end the show at the 2nd competition we were each at, and I remember standing outside the gate (I was right by the gate since I had a job of helping roadies set flags for the end of the show) wondering how far into their show they were. Let's just say all I had to do was listen to know they got to the lust movement |
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Post by Allohak on Dec 12, 2023 5:28:56 GMT -6
So, once again, just for context... atheist, here. The decision to never expose students in public schools to stories from religious narratives would be deciding to never expose them to... Well, like, any narratives. I want kids in my public school to read Milton's Paradise Lost, and Herrmann Hesse's Siddharta, and the Islamic poetry of Rumi. I want them to engage with those ideas on their own terms, respectfully. Obviously, I don't want anyone getting to the end of P aradise Lost and going, "And that's why you should all be Christians..." [or, if like me they found the Devil's arguments rather persuasive, saying the "And that's why you shouldn't."] but the idea that they should never even be exposed to those stories? Those stories that are some of the great achievements of the human literary tradition? That's ludicrously militant atheism and we all know [remember, I'm an atheist] there's nothing on this earth more obnoxious than a militant or missionary atheist. There's a vast area of grey between school prayer [no thanks] and never discussing religion [no thanks] where a thoughtful education in the humanities ought to dwell. I think Carmel parting the Red Sea and Lake Hamilton playing Southern gospel falls perfectly into that happy zone. Discuss religion and its literature in historical context, yes. Incorporate religion into sponsored activities, no. |
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Post by philodemus on Dec 12, 2023 8:32:57 GMT -6
So, once again, just for context... atheist, here. The decision to never expose students in public schools to stories from religious narratives would be deciding to never expose them to... Well, like, any narratives. I want kids in my public school to read Milton's Paradise Lost, and Herrmann Hesse's Siddharta, and the Islamic poetry of Rumi. I want them to engage with those ideas on their own terms, respectfully. Obviously, I don't want anyone getting to the end of P aradise Lost and going, "And that's why you should all be Christians..." [or, if like me they found the Devil's arguments rather persuasive, saying the "And that's why you shouldn't."] but the idea that they should never even be exposed to those stories? Those stories that are some of the great achievements of the human literary tradition? That's ludicrously militant atheism and we all know [remember, I'm an atheist] there's nothing on this earth more obnoxious than a militant or missionary atheist. There's a vast area of grey between school prayer [no thanks] and never discussing religion [no thanks] where a thoughtful education in the humanities ought to dwell. I think Carmel parting the Red Sea and Lake Hamilton playing Southern gospel falls perfectly into that happy zone. Discuss religion and its literature in historical context, yes. Incorporate religion into sponsored activities, no. So, the student musical can't be Godspell or Jesus Christ Superstar? |
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Post by Allohak on Dec 12, 2023 18:03:19 GMT -6
Discuss religion and its literature in historical context, yes. Incorporate religion into sponsored activities, no. So, the student musical can't be Godspell or Jesus Christ Superstar? Not without violating 1st Amendment protections. Unless the school is fully privately funded. |
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Post by LeanderMomma on Dec 13, 2023 2:17:57 GMT -6
I never knew Carmel parted the Red Sea. 😂 🌊 It was at the end of the run, they did a flyover with a blue blanket to cover two largish blocks of band and then one of the color guard stomped the middle down. yes I absolutely remember that section. I just didn’t know what the significance of it was. I was too caught up in “ohhhh, Leander did that in Radioactive” to catch on I guess. 🤣 |
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Post by hewhowaits on Dec 13, 2023 6:57:32 GMT -6
So, the student musical can't be Godspell or Jesus Christ Superstar? Not without violating 1st Amendment protections. Unless the school is fully privately funded. The 1st Amendment provides freedom OF religion (the government may not establish an official religion), not freedom FROM religion (you absolutely MAY be exposed to religion). |
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Post by dbdbdb on Dec 13, 2023 8:51:11 GMT -6
I saw this show at BOA Johnson City. I can honestly say that I was confused by why anyone would choose that show with those uniforms (extremely plain dress of the time) and that dry subject matter for something that will be used as a halftime show. It led to a long conversation regarding the purpose of a field show and the importance of entertainment, amusement, emotion, sense of "wow," etc. For me, it wasn't the Christian aspect since it was clearly portraying a time in history - not preaching gospel. I just felt like anything else in the world would have been more fun for the students to put on the field.
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Post by philodemus on Dec 13, 2023 9:18:18 GMT -6
So, the student musical can't be Godspell or Jesus Christ Superstar? Not without violating 1st Amendment protections. Unless the school is fully privately funded. That would not seem to be the current state of constitutional jurisprudence. Of course, you are free to disagree with the current state of constitutional jurisprudence. For me, I can see no difference between a public school theater department putting on Godspell, a public school choir singing Handel's Messiah, or Carmel parting the Red Sea . And none of the three bother my secularist mind. |
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Post by kdivine on Dec 13, 2023 9:50:04 GMT -6
Not without violating 1st Amendment protections. Unless the school is fully privately funded. That would not seem to be the current state of constitutional jurisprudence. Of course, you are free to disagree with the current state of constitutional jurisprudence. For me, I can see no difference between a public school theater department putting on Godspell, a public school choir singing Handel's Messiah, or Carmel parting the Red Sea . And none of the three bother my secularist mind. Back in 1998, the school I worked at did Lloyd-Webber's Joseph and the ATDC. I was involved enough that I saw the script and sheet music and did note at the time that the legal/copyright page said "This edition is intended for school and community license only." |
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Post by boahistorybuff on Dec 13, 2023 16:19:00 GMT -6
I saw this show at BOA Johnson City. I can honestly say that I was confused by why anyone would choose that show with those uniforms (extremely plain dress of the time) and that dry subject matter for something that will be used as a halftime show. It led to a long conversation regarding the purpose of a field show and the importance of entertainment, amusement, emotion, sense of "wow," etc. For me, it wasn't the Christian aspect since it was clearly portraying a time in history - not preaching gospel. I just felt like anything else in the world would have been more fun for the students to put on the field. There are so many great shows that likely never resonated with a half time audience at a football game. What is entertaining to an audience watching a football half time show versus a marching band competition are often different. Yes there are some very good shows that have done both, but there are also some awsome legendary BOA shows that likely fell flat at a football game. Lake Hamilton is the latter. |
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Post by kdivine on Dec 13, 2023 18:01:42 GMT -6
I saw this show at BOA Johnson City. I can honestly say that I was confused by why anyone would choose that show with those uniforms (extremely plain dress of the time) and that dry subject matter for something that will be used as a halftime show. It led to a long conversation regarding the purpose of a field show and the importance of entertainment, amusement, emotion, sense of "wow," etc. For me, it wasn't the Christian aspect since it was clearly portraying a time in history - not preaching gospel. I just felt like anything else in the world would have been more fun for the students to put on the field. There are so many great shows that likely never resonated with a half time audience at a football game. What is entertaining to an audience watching a football half time show versus a marching band competition are often different. Yes there are some very good shows that have done both, but there are also some awsome legendary BOA shows that likely fell flat at a football game. Lake Hamilton is the latter. It was more that after they won at Bryant at the end of September they didn't have a competition run go without issues until finals at Johnson City. Memphis was not good-- the wind wreaked havoc in prelims [heck, Bartlett had props blow from the 50 down to the corner of the end zone and their revolving prop kept turning and knocking into people until a parent [?]grabbed it from behind], my son's solo mic cut in and out in both runs, and an on-field judge yanked electric cords with his feet and didn't tell anybody, which is clearly visible on the Box5 feed, and which caused rather loud feedback and a lot of the electric instruments to cut off, so no one was happy. Johnson City is just a weird field to begin with and there were more tech issues in prelims. They were solid in finals, but it had been a long weekend to that point. As to the show itself, the kids had a blast doing it--what you saw at JC was probably 2/3 installed at that point and a lot of the fun stuff came in after that. Spaeth added the toe-drag dance moves in movement 4 after state, and the actual tent setup got delayed, because wind, until they had a chance to run practice in the Indy convention center, so pre-lims on Friday was the first time any of us parents got to see it [they tried it in one outdoor practice, but the wind was catching the canvas and blowing over the "cannon" bases, which were as heavy or heavier than most of the color guard who were setting them up, and they were afraid of someone becoming Dorothy and riding off to Oz]. Of the shows from the past years, this is first or second as general consensus goes with this years' seniors-- freshman year was a "covid" show based on Man in the Mirror and six foot social distancing and while I don't think anyone actively hated it, a lot of people were meh. Sophomore year they tried artsy-fart with "The Artist's Journey" and while it was better [they missed GN semi's by a fraction of a smidge], there was a lot of slog to it and they didn't seem to really enjoy it. Last year and this year had a lot of buy in--2022 was the Hee Haw corn show and the kids all got into Dolly Parton, and this year was the first year they could really hang loose. As to the reception at football games, it got excellent support, in part because the FB team had a down year [3-7] and about 2/3 of the crowd on any given week was there to see the band [what are those boys doing on the band field with a ball?]  and left after halftime. But, no, it really did resonate well, and a lot of the football/cheer/dance parents I know were just as enthusiastic [and quite a few had some overlap]. |
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Post by Allohak on Dec 13, 2023 19:12:56 GMT -6
Not without violating 1st Amendment protections. Unless the school is fully privately funded. The 1st Amendment provides freedom OF religion (the government may not establish an official religion), not freedom FROM religion (you absolutely MAY be exposed to religion). Correct. And by government resources going to production of religious material, the proverbial separation is nonexistent. |
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Post by Allohak on Dec 13, 2023 19:14:45 GMT -6
Not without violating 1st Amendment protections. Unless the school is fully privately funded. That would not seem to be the current state of constitutional jurisprudence. Of course, you are free to disagree with the current state of constitutional jurisprudence. For me, I can see no difference between a public school theater department putting on Godspell, a public school choir singing Handel's Messiah, or Carmel parting the Red Sea . And none of the three bother my secularist mind. Bingo on all accounts. |
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Post by abtwitch on Dec 13, 2023 21:33:25 GMT -6
One more piece of context that I think is important, in the article the school states that the show was based in part on the movie "Oh Brother Where Art Thou", which is explicitly a satire of the Tent Revival movement. However, I do sympathize with people who have a negative gut reaction, as I am included in that group, and I think the portrayal of the satirical element could have been better emphasized in some way.
As another southern atheist, one who was raised in a very evangelical household and even went to a private Christian college (SCRATCH 'EM, CATS!), I am very pro-teaching-about-art-based-on-Christianity(-or-any-religion-for-that-matter) as I think that kind of historical context is incredibly valuable regardless of where your values lie. Hell, my favorite musical is Jesus Christ Superstar! Where my discomfort initially came from was the fire and brimstone vibey signage, as that brings back some bad memories and also makes me nervous conversations that have yet to be had with specific family members. As I better understood the historical context and the movie it was largely based on, those feelings subsided.
Now on the topic of anything remotely religious being portrayed in a marching band show, I can sorta see the reason for discomfort, but it's often a fantastic opportunity for cross-curricular learning, something I wish was emphasized more in our educational system. Based on what has been discussed here the past few days, it seems the directors of the program did a fantastic job at this, which means I can't help but praise the work they're doing over there.
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Post by hewhowaits on Dec 14, 2023 8:06:41 GMT -6
The 1st Amendment provides freedom OF religion (the government may not establish an official religion), not freedom FROM religion (you absolutely MAY be exposed to religion). Correct. And by government resources going to production of religious material, the proverbial separation is nonexistent. The First Amendment never uses the term "separation." Separation of church and state is an interpretive construct. Further, the amendment limits interference with the right to express values and beliefs (freedom of speech). Any argument calling forth the First Amendment as a reason AGAINST Lake Hamilton's show is improper interpretation of the Constitutional rights contained therein, IMO. The First Amendment supports the band's right to program and perform what they did. It also supports each individual's right to disagree, and as such, to choose to not participate or watch. |
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Post by Allohak on Dec 14, 2023 9:33:15 GMT -6
Correct. And by government resources going to production of religious material, the proverbial separation is nonexistent. The First Amendment never uses the term "separation." Separation of church and state is an interpretive construct. Further, the amendment limits interference with the right to express values and beliefs (freedom of speech). Any argument calling forth the First Amendment as a reason AGAINST Lake Hamilton's show is improper interpretation of the Constitutional rights contained therein, IMO. The First Amendment supports the band's right to program and perform what they did. It also supports each individual's right to disagree, and as such, to choose to not participate or watch. Also correct re: the specific wording of the First Amendment. The term "separation" comes from an 1802 letter Jefferson wrote explaining the intent of what was codified, "the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State". A 1878 SCOTUS ruling in Reynolds v. United States solidifies that stated intent, "that it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [first] amendment". |
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Post by LeanderMomma on Dec 18, 2023 7:37:43 GMT -6
I’m ready to separate ourselves from this topic. 🥴
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Post by kdivine on Dec 18, 2023 13:26:29 GMT -6
I’m ready to separate ourselves from this topic. 🥴 Agreed. |
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and left after halftime. But, no, it really did resonate well, and a lot of the football/cheer/dance parents I know were just as enthusiastic [and quite a few had some overlap].