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Post by 70sguardchick on Feb 13, 2024 11:17:35 GMT -6
Here is the schedule for this year's season:
Feb 17 Northview
Feb 17 Carroll
Feb 24 Decatur Central
Feb 24 Plainfield
Mar 2 Pendleton Heights
Mar 9 Center Grove
Mar 9 Westfield
Mar 16 Brownsburg
Mar 16 Franklin Community
Mar 23 State Prelims Avon
Mar 23 State Prelims Perry Meridian
State Finals - Terre Haute??? not on website yet
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Post by paddy on Feb 14, 2024 14:10:45 GMT -6
Here is the schedule for this year's season: Feb 17 Northview Feb 17 Carroll Feb 24 Decatur Central Feb 24 Plainfield Mar 2 Pendleton Heights Mar 9 Center Grove Mar 9 Westfield Mar 16 Brownsburg Mar 16 Franklin Community Mar 23 State Prelims Avon Mar 23 State Prelims Perry Meridian State Finals - Terre Haute??? not on website yet Terre Haute is such a subpar location for finals... |
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Post by 70sguardchick on Feb 14, 2024 14:52:39 GMT -6
Here is the schedule for this year's season: Feb 17 Northview Feb 17 Carroll Feb 24 Decatur Central Feb 24 Plainfield Mar 2 Pendleton Heights Mar 9 Center Grove Mar 9 Westfield Mar 16 Brownsburg Mar 16 Franklin Community Mar 23 State Prelims Avon Mar 23 State Prelims Perry Meridian State Finals - Terre Haute??? not on website yet Terre Haute is such a subpar location for finals... Isn't The Haute pretty much a subpar location for just about everything??? LOL Yeah, not a popular choice for the props crews that I know of - and definitely not convenient at all for NE Indiana groups. I know everyone hates that all the big competitions are in Indy, but it really is a crossroads like the motto says.... |
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Post by paddy on Feb 14, 2024 15:01:42 GMT -6
Terre Haute is such a subpar location for finals... Isn't The Haute pretty much a subpar location for just about everything??? LOL Yeah, not a popular choice for the props crews that I know of - and definitely not convenient at all for NE Indiana groups. I know everyone hates that all the big competitions are in Indy, but it really is a crossroads like the motto says.... I get why there is a desire to not be at a HS to make it special. I have advocated for the Coliseum at the State Fair Grounds or Hinkle Fieldhouse. I bet the Butler School of Music would be a willing partner. I don't know if Hinkle would work logistically, but the Coliseum would be great and has easy access to ample indoor warm up space. |
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Post by 70sguardchick on Mar 27, 2024 8:04:07 GMT -6
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Post by brodude77 on Mar 27, 2024 10:48:20 GMT -6
Brownsburg’s in world class now?
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Post by 70sguardchick on Mar 27, 2024 11:29:51 GMT -6
Brownsburg’s in world class now? Word came down from the gods of WGI and it was so. |
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Post by bigblue2019 on Mar 30, 2024 9:06:35 GMT -6
Brownsburg’s in world class now? Word came down from the gods of WGI and it was so. I'm going to disagree that word came down from WGI. Brownsburg was promoted after IPA Prelims, Not a WGI event. Also, Brownsburg only won prelims by 2 points with an 86, so it's not like they were dominating. Brownsburg goes from more than likely to making finals at WGI, to maybe not making it out of Prelims. Oh and Brownsburgs reward for being promoted, they get to be in the same block as Avon and Center Grove. IMOHPO, This is not okay! Just my 2 cents. Also for reference, Old Bridge, NJ scored an 89 at the East percussion regional, and was not promoted to SW?? |
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Post by 70sguardchick on Mar 30, 2024 11:55:12 GMT -6
Word came down from the gods of WGI and it was so. I'm going to disagree that word came down from WGI. Brownsburg was promoted after IPA Prelims, Not a WGI event. Also, Brownsburg only won prelims by 2 points with an 86, so it's not like they were dominating. Brownsburg goes from more than likely to making finals at WGI, to maybe not making it out of Prelims. Oh and Brownsburgs reward for being promoted, they get to be in the same block as Avon and Center Grove. IMOHPO, This is not okay! Just my 2 cents. Also for reference, Old Bridge, NJ scored an 89 at the East percussion regional, and was not promoted to SW?? To be accurate, the call came Tuesday evening from WGI to the Percussion director, who then notified the kids and then IPA. I am more optimistic than you about their chances in Prelims. In any case, it is an honor to be promoted and the kids are pumped. |
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Post by phantomphan on Mar 30, 2024 12:21:35 GMT -6
I'm going to disagree that word came down from WGI. Brownsburg was promoted after IPA Prelims, Not a WGI event. Also, Brownsburg only won prelims by 2 points with an 86, so it's not like they were dominating. Brownsburg goes from more than likely to making finals at WGI, to maybe not making it out of Prelims. Oh and Brownsburgs reward for being promoted, they get to be in the same block as Avon and Center Grove. IMOHPO, This is not okay! Just my 2 cents. Also for reference, Old Bridge, NJ scored an 89 at the East percussion regional, and was not promoted to SW?? To be accurate, the call came Tuesday evening from WGI to the Percussion director, who then notified the kids and then IPA. I am more optimistic than you about their chances in Prelims. In any case, it is an honor to be promoted and the kids are pumped. Agreed... this is a big honor to be on the same stage as Avon, Center Grove, etc. and (IMO) a well deserved bump for Brownsburg. Congrats and good luck! |
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Post by bigblue2019 on Mar 30, 2024 15:35:21 GMT -6
To be accurate, the call came Tuesday evening from WGI to the Percussion director, who then notified the kids and then IPA. I am more optimistic than you about their chances in Prelims. In any case, it is an honor to be promoted and the kids are pumped. Agreed... this is a big honor to be on the same stage as Avon, Center Grove, etc. and (IMO) a well deserved bump for Brownsburg. Congrats and good luck! It is absolutely an honor! That being said, there's so much inconsistentcies with the percussion promotions! Brownsburg only competed in one regional this year. They were 2nd to VJA. VJA competed at the Mid East regional scored an 89 and are still in open? Old Bridge is still in open?? Make it make sense! I wish nothing but the the best for Brownsburg, I just find it strange that, if in fact , WGI notified them of the promotion, my common sense side would be asking on what basis. And on the last weekend of the regular season? Just doesn't make sense. Best of luck to Brownsburg in PSW class. Question remains why are VJA and Old Rock still sitting in Open class? |
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Post by srv1084 on Mar 30, 2024 17:42:37 GMT -6
Agreed... this is a big honor to be on the same stage as Avon, Center Grove, etc. and (IMO) a well deserved bump for Brownsburg. Congrats and good luck! It is absolutely an honor! That being said, there's so much inconsistentcies with the percussion promotions! Brownsburg only competed in one regional this year. They were 2nd to VJA. VJA competed at the Mid East regional scored an 89 and are still in open? Old Bridge is still in open?? Make it make sense! I wish nothing but the the best for Brownsburg, I just find it strange that, if in fact , WGI notified them of the promotion, my common sense side would be asking on what basis. And on the last weekend of the regular season? Just doesn't make sense. Best of luck to Brownsburg in PSW class. Question remains why are VJA and Old Rock still sitting in Open class? I've spoken out about WGI promotions on here far more times than I can count. So I'll keep it to a minimum, but I will say this much: Promotions in WGI are not about what is being achieved, it's about what is being ASKED of the performers. If someone is in Open Class performing a solidly "intermediate" skill set at the highest level possible, it's likely that they outscore a unit performing a show with a very "advanced" skill set with a little bit of dirt. They may be presenting a show that is very decidedly "Open Class" even if they're scoring above another unit that is pomoted. You don't get an extra reward in score in Open Class for performing advanced skills. It's not the same as in BOA where it's all judged on the same sheets - the content and execution scores have more alignment. In many cases, if your content level is super high and you're not able to achieve it, that's actually a big hit to your content score as you've provided the students with something they aren't able to achieve at the level expected of that class. Said another way "why aren't they able to achieve an execution score of 95/100 - is it because they simply had a rough run, or is it because what they're being asked to do doesn't allow them to get there just yet?" |
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Post by bigblue2019 on Mar 31, 2024 9:42:24 GMT -6
It is absolutely an honor! That being said, there's so much inconsistentcies with the percussion promotions! Brownsburg only competed in one regional this year. They were 2nd to VJA. VJA competed at the Mid East regional scored an 89 and are still in open? Old Bridge is still in open?? Make it make sense! I wish nothing but the the best for Brownsburg, I just find it strange that, if in fact , WGI notified them of the promotion, my common sense side would be asking on what basis. And on the last weekend of the regular season? Just doesn't make sense. Best of luck to Brownsburg in PSW class. Question remains why are VJA and Old Rock still sitting in Open class? I've spoken out about WGI promotions on here far more times than I can count. So I'll keep it to a minimum, but I will say this much: Promotions in WGI are not about what is being achieved, it's about what is being ASKED of the performers. If someone is in Open Class performing a solidly "intermediate" skill set at the highest level possible, it's likely that they outscore a unit performing a show with a very "advanced" skill set with a little bit of dirt. They may be presenting a show that is very decidedly "Open Class" even if they're scoring above another unit that is pomoted. You don't get an extra reward in score in Open Class for performing advanced skills. It's not the same as in BOA where it's all judged on the same sheets - the content and execution scores have more alignment. In many cases, if your content level is super high and you're not able to achieve it, that's actually a big hit to your content score as you've provided the students with something they aren't able to achieve at the level expected of that class. Said another way "why aren't they able to achieve an execution score of 95/100 - is it because they simply had a rough run, or is it because what they're being asked to do doesn't allow them to get there just yet?" So I still have questions. Why would WGI, When a group hasn't competed in a Wgi Regional in weeks, contact a group right at the end of their season and go oh hey you're getting promoted?? I've been following these activities for years, and as far as I can recall, I don't ever remember that happening. Yes, I've seen percussion groups get bumped during regionals and the week after a regional, and yes right before championships, after the last regional. In looking at the recap, they aren't outperforming their show in a few captions. Only 2 judges had them outperforming their show. Second question, why are Old Bridge, and VJA, who scored nearly 90's at WGI regionals, sitting in Open still. By crunching numbers and comparing things, it just isn't adding up. Again, I wish nothing but the best for Brownsburg! |
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Post by 70sguardchick on Mar 31, 2024 9:55:59 GMT -6
I wish I had the inside info to answer that question - if i hear more I will let you know. But if I am understanding what srv1084 is saying, it’s not just scores and placements - it is more how that show design fits with the Open v World scoresheets….how advanced the skill vocabulary and demand are along with how well the group completes those skills and integrates them into the overall show. Am I close?? |
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Post by paddy on Mar 31, 2024 12:00:49 GMT -6
I wish I had the inside info to answer that question - if i hear more I will let you know. But if I am understanding what srv1084 is saying, it’s not just scores and placements - it is more how that show design fits with the Open v World scoresheets….how advanced the skill vocabulary and demand are along with how well the group completes those skills and integrates them into the overall show. Am I close?? Yes. Typically it correlates to a higher score, but there are groups out there who excel at keeping the design language and skills well inside a class to avoid promotion while also scoring well. |
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Post by srv1084 on Mar 31, 2024 13:49:00 GMT -6
I've spoken out about WGI promotions on here far more times than I can count. So I'll keep it to a minimum, but I will say this much: Promotions in WGI are not about what is being achieved, it's about what is being ASKED of the performers. If someone is in Open Class performing a solidly "intermediate" skill set at the highest level possible, it's likely that they outscore a unit performing a show with a very "advanced" skill set with a little bit of dirt. They may be presenting a show that is very decidedly "Open Class" even if they're scoring above another unit that is pomoted. You don't get an extra reward in score in Open Class for performing advanced skills. It's not the same as in BOA where it's all judged on the same sheets - the content and execution scores have more alignment. In many cases, if your content level is super high and you're not able to achieve it, that's actually a big hit to your content score as you've provided the students with something they aren't able to achieve at the level expected of that class. Said another way "why aren't they able to achieve an execution score of 95/100 - is it because they simply had a rough run, or is it because what they're being asked to do doesn't allow them to get there just yet?" So I still have questions. Why would WGI, When a group hasn't competed in a Wgi Regional in weeks, contact a group right at the end of their season and go oh hey you're getting promoted?? I've been following these activities for years, and as far as I can recall, I don't ever remember that happening. Yes, I've seen percussion groups get bumped during regionals and the week after a regional, and yes right before championships, after the last regional. In looking at the recap, they aren't outperforming their show in a few captions. Only 2 judges had them outperforming their show. Second question, why are Old Bridge, and VJA, who scored nearly 90's at WGI regionals, sitting in Open still. By crunching numbers and comparing things, it just isn't adding up. Again, I wish nothing but the best for Brownsburg! If a group is being considered for promotion, it usually isn't an instant decision. It's rare that you see a case like Bridgeland, where they perform in prelims in Open Class and jump to World Class for finals. Those situations are for absolute no-brainers, and they act fast as it gives the ensemble the opportunity to get critiques and immediate feedback in their new class. Heck, I've even seen a PIO group (The Project from PA) get promoted from PIO to PIW after Dayton prelims, and they performed in PIW prelims later that day (another no-brainer - they made PIW finals that year). Usually, we'll see it happen after finals once they've had a second viewing of the program. In other cases, the review board can take quite some time to come to a decision and often only after discussing with the ensemble directors. It's entirely possible WGI notified the Brownsburg directors they were under review after coming out of that regional, but maybe they asked them to submit videos after the regional to help make a decision. This happened just a couple of years ago with several PSA groups being promoted to PSO in the last week of the season, with several having not performed at a WGI regional for weeks. This process isn't something new. I've also been following the activity for more years than I care to admit, and I can recall several times where groups were promoted several weeks after their regional, even a few years where there were multiple groups promoted the week before Dayton. The group I taught dropped down from Open to A one year due to membership retention issues, and there was definitely a discussion that season related to a promotion back to Open. The review took several weeks, and was driven by a tenor line that was without question performing above an A-Class skill set (I'd argue even some lower World Class material). The problem was, the rest of the group was SOLIDLY performing a A-Class show and couldn't handle more than what was thrown at them. A promotion back to Open would have been a disservice to the entire ensemble, so after weeks of review, out came the hose on the tenor line to align them more closely with a very talented high-beginner level group. For the point on Old Bridge and VJA, I answered that in my original post, just without specifically naming them. The scores are effectively meaningless when making this decision. VJA has a decidedly very "intermediate" level show and are performing the hell out of it. Old Bridge I would say is mostly displaying "intermediate" skills, with some advanced material scattered in their snare book. Their show is also incredibly effective and well designed (including phenomenal electronics/sound design, which we usually see in higher classes), which helps them quite a bit with scores if they're able to deliver. I don't think a few licks are enough to warrant a promotion when 90+% of the material is not of an advanced skillset. When they were promoted last year, it was another no-brainer. They were playing some very demanding stuff. They just didn't manage to get it to finalist level in execution. Now they're back in Open Class with material they can achieve. It's entirely possible (though not at all likely) that a group can come out in Scholastic A and pop an 85+ in week 1 and not get promoted during the year. If the most complex thing they're playing is a couple of paradiddle diddles and flam accents, and one movement of four mallet block chords, that's not enough material to warrant a promotion. If they're executing it nearly perfectly in week 1 they should get rewarded for it, but not necessarily promoted. Of course, nobody comes out in lower classes that clean if they're playing appropriate material, which is why we rarely see that happening. If that happens, it's entirely on the instructors as they've proven that the students can handle much, much more than has been asked of them. My problem with promotions has never been with groups not getting promoted, as I feel WGI usually gets it right with the ones that definitely need to be promoted. My problem is when it's clear a group is not performing a show with material within the next class' skill set, but get promoted on what seems like score alone. I'd hate for that to be the case with VJA and Old Bridge, as score alone should NEVER be the driver behind these decisions. |
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Post by srv1084 on Mar 31, 2024 14:14:34 GMT -6
I wish I had the inside info to answer that question - if i hear more I will let you know. But if I am understanding what srv1084 is saying, it’s not just scores and placements - it is more how that show design fits with the Open v World scoresheets….how advanced the skill vocabulary and demand are along with how well the group completes those skills and integrates them into the overall show. Am I close?? Yes. Typically it correlates to a higher score, but there are groups out there who excel at keeping the design language and skills well inside a class to avoid promotion while also scoring well. Exactly this. There are some groups that were well known for consistently finishing at the top of their class, but never self-promoting the following year. They were able to get away without in-season promotions for so long because their material was very obviously within the expectations set for that class. Pacifica HS is probably the most well-known in this regard. - Pacifica's streak in Open Class from 2003-2011 was 10th, 6th, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st. They were never promoted.
- Clear Brook's track record in Open Class when attending since 2005 (every 2-3 years) was 1st, 4th, 2nd, 10th, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, until they were finally promoted in 2023.
- Trumbull was in Scholastic Open finals from 2006-2019, with two medals. Never promoted.
- Norwalk was in Scholastic Open finals from 2011-2022, with four medals. Never promoted.
- VJA has been in Open Class finals off and on since 2008, including 5 medals. The two times they dropped back down to PSA, they won gold and immediately moved up the next year. Never promoted to PSW.
Sometimes these designers know exactly how to tailor programs to the class they're in. In some cases it's frustrating because you know they can (and do) achieve more (see Clear Brook) but just elect to not challenge themselves, but in other cases there could be a variety of reasons for it. In Pacifica's case, I know they were a very small band program that often included wind players just to fill out an ensemble. The fact that they were able to win so often was more of a testament to how hard they worked and the quality of their instruction.
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Post by bigblue2019 on Mar 31, 2024 23:50:26 GMT -6
I get what you're saying. However, also in percussion, they don't promote like the guard side does.
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Post by srv1084 on Apr 1, 2024 8:42:41 GMT -6
I get what you're saying. However, also in percussion, they don't promote like the guard side does. Yep, that's right - and you just touched upon something else I've thought about a lot over the years. I've always found it a little puzzling how different the two sides of the activity are when it comes to this. The more I've thought about it, I'm beginning to think the automatic promotions on the guard side aren't necessarily a bad thing, IF they allow the unit to present them with a compelling case against doing so. In most cases, a well-developed program with a feeder system can most certainly attempt the next highest class after medaling the previous year, but there will always be outliers. If there's a review opportunity where the staff can petition to not move and explain why it would actually be detrimental to the program to make the move, it seems like a good compromise. Of course, there are far more guard feeder programs out there than percussion feeder programs, so I suppose that has something to do with guard automatic promotions vs percussion. With regards to providing compelling reasons against the automatic promotion, I suppose that can be interpreted pretty loosely. The main one that I can think of is member retention. It's entirely possible that a program had a lightning in a bottle moment one year with an all senior snare line and tenor line, and they're basically starting over the next year. To force them to perform in World Class with all rookies could create a lot of unnecessary pressure and burnout on the performers when they would be better served with building their skills in a lower class. Apologies to all for going off on tangents on promotions again - you can probably tell I feel pretty strongly about this, but it's entirely from the perspective of wanting the right thing for the performers. The wrong call can turn such a potentially positive experience into something negative if they weren't given the opportunity to excel in the venue that is best suited for them. I've long been a fan of the Brownsburg programs, and while I haven't seen them yet this year, last year's show was an indication that this is a group on the rise (along with their band and guard program). I trust they were promoted for the right reasons and I'm pulling for them to make finals in PSW this year. What a fantastic achievement that would be. If I was a betting man, I'd wager that the guard program isn't far behind in achieving World Class status. |
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Post by 70sguardchick on Apr 1, 2024 11:10:33 GMT -6
I get what you're saying. However, also in percussion, they don't promote like the guard side does. Yep, that's right - and you just touched upon something else I've thought about a lot over the years. I've always found it a little puzzling how different the two sides of the activity are when it comes to this. The more I've thought about it, I'm beginning to think the automatic promotions on the guard side aren't necessarily a bad thing, IF they allow the unit to present them with a compelling case against doing so. In most cases, a well-developed program with a feeder system can most certainly attempt the next highest class after medaling the previous year, but there will always be outliers. If there's a review opportunity where the staff can petition to not move and explain why it would actually be detrimental to the program to make the move, it seems like a good compromise. Of course, there are far more guard feeder programs out there than percussion feeder programs, so I suppose that has something to do with guard automatic promotions vs percussion. With regards to providing compelling reasons against the automatic promotion, I suppose that can be interpreted pretty loosely. The main one that I can think of is member retention. It's entirely possible that a program had a lightning in a bottle moment one year with an all senior snare line and tenor line, and they're basically starting over the next year. To force them to perform in World Class with all rookies could create a lot of unnecessary pressure and burnout on the performers when they would be better served with building their skills in a lower class. Apologies to all for going off on tangents on promotions again - you can probably tell I feel pretty strongly about this, but it's entirely from the perspective of wanting the right thing for the performers. The wrong call can turn such a potentially positive experience into something negative if they weren't given the opportunity to excel in the venue that is best suited for them. I've long been a fan of the Brownsburg programs, and while I haven't seen them yet this year, last year's show was an indication that this is a group on the rise (along with their band and guard program). I trust they were promoted for the right reasons and I'm pulling for them to make finals in PSW this year. What a fantastic achievement that would be. If I was a betting man, I'd wager that the guard program isn't far behind in achieving World Class status. Thanks for all your insights, srv1084 - Hope to cross paths in Dayton and hear your thoughts on the show! |
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