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Post by jason45 on Oct 22, 2022 16:15:33 GMT -6
Hello fellow bandies, A big BOA fan here from Columbus Ohio. I'm always fascinated how some high school marching band programs can have strong success with new member recruiting yet others with large student populations struggle to get numbers. Case in point...I've been watching O'Fallon Township over the years and around 2017-2018 I think they did the shows with the giant white tarps, yet the band seemed relatively small (125-140'sh?). The past few years it seems like they have suddenly exploded in size to 225+ (a good thing, obviously). So first question, I'm curious, does anyone have any insight on what's lead to the pretty big growth in the program? Cursory online checking shows the highs school around 2,400 students. Then to contrast... There's Plymouth Canton with over 6,000 high school students across the 3 schools (!!!) yet their band size has been steadily declining the past 10-15 years; and disappointedly this year, seems like they can barely field 100 members. Recruiting is obviously an ongoing effort and I'm sure there are a myriad of other reasons (like too many other extracurricular activities to choose from, perhaps). This stark contrast in program success, from a recruiting standpoint, seems like an opportunity where programs could learn from each others' recruiting efforts and what works. I welcome any insight on these 2 specific programs or the topic in general.  |
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Post by doublegeez on Oct 22, 2022 16:18:10 GMT -6
Probably a combination of funding into the band program into doing eventful competitions and big trips to then advertise for
It could also be that advertising into middle schools is rising or falling so that the marching arts could be promoted in that area
It’s some guesses, just whether or not band kids know that the opportunity exists and that it would be worth their time and effort into doing a activity (and to what it is)
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Post by ilikeguard on Oct 22, 2022 16:31:10 GMT -6
O’Fallon made cuts for the tarp shows, iirc.
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Post by bandirectorman on Oct 22, 2022 18:29:19 GMT -6
Hello fellow bandies, A big BOA fan here from Columbus Ohio. I'm always fascinated how some high school marching band programs can have strong success with new member recruiting yet others with large student populations struggle to get numbers. Case in point...I've been watching O'Fallon Township over the years and around 2017-2018 I think they did the shows with the giant white tarps, yet the band seemed relatively small (125-140'sh?). The past few years it seems like they have suddenly exploded in size to 225+ (a good thing, obviously). So first question, I'm curious, does anyone have any insight on what's lead to the pretty big growth in the program? Cursory online checking shows the highs school around 2,400 students. Then to contrast... There's Plymouth Canton with over 6,000 high school students across the 3 schools (!!!) yet their band size has been steadily declining the past 10-15 years; and disappointedly this year, seems like they can barely field 100 members. Recruiting is obviously an ongoing effort and I'm sure there are a myriad of other reasons (like too many other extracurricular activities to choose from, perhaps). This stark contrast in program success, from a recruiting standpoint, seems like an opportunity where programs could learn from each others' recruiting efforts and what works. I welcome any insight on these 2 specific programs or the topic in general. There's an ongoing debate that has largely been ignored across the country and that is of the combined district bands. Combining multiple public high schools into one marching band in order to compete with individual public high schools. While not true for O'Fallon, certainly is true on some level within Plymouth, Lawrence Twp., Lincoln-Way, Normal (IL) and probably more on the horizon. None of the arts organizations seem to want to touch this or classify these groups properly from a competitive standpoint, so while it's not illegal, that explains why you can see robust numbers or growth in some programs as well. It is not always the case nor does it always equal sustained success, but I think it's highly unethical. Basically, maintaining a band program, as many on here can attest, requires the right combination of feeder schools and aligned instruction across the grade levels, a good balance of instrumentation in order to feed into the high school program, and seeing the high school band experience as a fun, exciting, and maybe even competitively successful opportunity. I don't know what it's like for private high schools, but for the public ones, like mine, it all starts in grade school and being accessible for students to feel welcome. If you can get numbers and a baseline of fundamentals for most freshmen on day one, you're in the driver's seat. I am always amazed how one program, who will remain nameless, combines kids from non-feeder schools and turns their ensemble into a highly competitive & successful group. But for public high schools, the formula is fairly straight forward. Also, might I add, not doing field shows that are extremely lame & embarrass your students, helps too. I know of one colleague who alienated 15-20% of his band by doing a show focused on extremely lame content about little kids and dancing through meadows. Know your community. |
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Post by stlbanddad on Oct 22, 2022 19:01:25 GMT -6
O’Fallon made cuts for the tarp shows, iirc. O'Fallon doesn't have tryouts and does not cut anyone. There are alternates so not everyone marches in competitions, but those alternates are swapped into other opportunities (parades, football games, etc.), and the number of alternates stays pretty consistent year-to-year. But to answer the original question, there are probably a number of factors in play... 1. A number of years ago, a 5th grade band program was started at the two biggest feeder junior high schools. It was completely voluntary before-school program, that, in my opinion, had the effect of locking students into an elective track so that they stayed in band throughout junior high. If I remember the timeline correctly, the first class of 5th graders were freshmen during the first "tarp year" in 2017 and they graduated during the cancelled COVID year. So last year and this year are really the first year they're seeing the benefits of that program throughout all high school grade levels. 2. A Rose Parade trip and Macy's Parade trip within 3 years really helps with recruiting.  There are plenty of other factors that also may play into it - a great staff, increased success on the field, very supportive boosters and community and probably even some perceived "cool factor" with the tarps for those two years. |
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Post by dbalash on Oct 22, 2022 19:05:40 GMT -6
It doesn't help PCEP's case either when they've had a lot of head directors in the past 15 years or so.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Oct 23, 2022 4:48:40 GMT -6
The story of Plymouth-Canton in a nutshell. In the 1970s, the area of Plymouth and Canton Township (suburban Detroit) started to see rapid growth (flight out of Detroit). The small Plymouth high school was closed and the school district purchased a large tract of farmland to create a high school campus. Rather than build one large high school that they would keep having to add to, they opted to create two high schools, Canton and Salem. In the 2000s, to address continued growth, they added a third high school, Plymouth. While each high school has their own sports teams, they opted to have one performing arts program for all three schools (cost saving). That included the marching band. As a relatively affluent suburban community back in the day, the music education department was very well funded. As the marching band program got stronger throughout the 1980s, there became a hefty cost factor for students who wanted to be in the band. This really became apparent in 1988 when they brought some nationally acclaimed staff on board, like designer Steve Brubaker. Throughout their glory years, the school district funded the feeder programs while parents and fundraising almost completely funded the marching band. It worked, as PCEP had a ton of money to play with. The band directors were supported by the school district. And it seems many of their directors, like Glen Adsit and David McGrath left for more lucrative positions. In 2003-2004, there was some budget cuts in the Plymouth-Canton district (a common problem among Michigan school districts). I am sure that had an impact on the feeder programs into the marching band. Being a director of the marching band with PCEP's legacy was I am sure a big and stressful job. Perhaps the salary offered by the district did not seem worth it (some speculation here). Teacher layoffs due to budget problems may also be a cause for the constant change in directors. The financial crises of 2008 hit metro Detroit very hard. I am sure that had some impact on the marching band that was so reliant on parent and community funding, which no doubt had an impact on the performance level of the marching band. With a near revolving door of directors and a more strained financial situation, I suspect they had a more difficult time getting the amount of support staff (designers/instructors) that they had had during their glory years. During the 2010s, I don't think the Canton Township area rebounded from the recession as much as other areas of metro Detroit. The wealth in the metro area was shifting north of the Canton Township area (although Plymouth still has some very wealthy areas). For a marching band that relies on parent support, there have simply been less parents that can afford the cost of having their kids in the marching band. Now in the last couple of years, we have been contending with the effects of Covid and inflation. This has only made it more difficult for parents to put forth so much money for kids to be in the marching band. Back during PCEP's glory years, the economic situation was better and the band was unbeatable in Michigan and winning Grand National titles, so there was a lot of desire and means for parents to have their kids be in that marching band. Not to get political here, but in Michigan we have one party that wants to siphon away from public schools and into charter schools and another party that wants to put more state funds into struggling inner city schools (particularly Detroit). The result is that school districts have to frequently put to vote measures to increase tax revenue for their district. For the school districts with a lot of newer neighborhoods with a lot of young school age children, they often get those passed. For the districts where the median age is higher (more people without school age children) those school tax hike proposals often get shot down by voters. The result, funding cuts. School districts don't want to cut core curricular programs. So, it is often the extracurricular activities, like the performing arts that usually see the more severe budget cuts. www.hometownlife.com/story/news/2020/05/18/plymouth-canton-school-facing-massive-state-funding-decrease/3121603001/patch.com/michigan/plymouth-mi/plymouth-canton-school-budget-cuts-painfulwww.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/massive-layoffs-at-plymouth-canton-schools/news-archive.plymouthlibrary.org/Media/Observer/Issue/2002/2002-12-19-PO.pdf |
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Post by boahistorybuff on Oct 23, 2022 11:45:25 GMT -6
Hello fellow bandies, A big BOA fan here from Columbus Ohio. I'm always fascinated how some high school marching band programs can have strong success with new member recruiting yet others with large student populations struggle to get numbers. Case in point...I've been watching O'Fallon Township over the years and around 2017-2018 I think they did the shows with the giant white tarps, yet the band seemed relatively small (125-140'sh?). The past few years it seems like they have suddenly exploded in size to 225+ (a good thing, obviously). So first question, I'm curious, does anyone have any insight on what's lead to the pretty big growth in the program? Cursory online checking shows the highs school around 2,400 students. Then to contrast... There's Plymouth Canton with over 6,000 high school students across the 3 schools (!!!) yet their band size has been steadily declining the past 10-15 years; and disappointedly this year, seems like they can barely field 100 members. Recruiting is obviously an ongoing effort and I'm sure there are a myriad of other reasons (like too many other extracurricular activities to choose from, perhaps). This stark contrast in program success, from a recruiting standpoint, seems like an opportunity where programs could learn from each others' recruiting efforts and what works. I welcome any insight on these 2 specific programs or the topic in general. There's an ongoing debate that has largely been ignored across the country and that is of the combined district bands. Combining multiple public high schools into one marching band in order to compete with individual public high schools. While not true for O'Fallon, certainly is true on some level within Plymouth, Lawrence Twp., Lincoln-Way, Normal (IL) and probably more on the horizon. None of the arts organizations seem to want to touch this or classify these groups properly from a competitive standpoint, so while it's not illegal, that explains why you can see robust numbers or growth in some programs as well. It is not always the case nor does it always equal sustained success, but I think it's highly unethical. Basically, maintaining a band program, as many on here can attest, requires the right combination of feeder schools and aligned instruction across the grade levels, a good balance of instrumentation in order to feed into the high school program, and seeing the high school band experience as a fun, exciting, and maybe even competitively successful opportunity. I don't know what it's like for private high schools, but for the public ones, like mine, it all starts in grade school and being accessible for students to feel welcome. If you can get numbers and a baseline of fundamentals for most freshmen on day one, you're in the driver's seat. I am always amazed how one program, who will remain nameless, combines kids from non-feeder schools and turns their ensemble into a highly competitive & successful group. But for public high schools, the formula is fairly straight forward. Also, might I add, not doing field shows that are extremely lame & embarrass your students, helps too. I know of one colleague who alienated 15-20% of his band by doing a show focused on extremely lame content about little kids and dancing through meadows. Know your community. This has been an ongoing debate for a very long time. There have always been pretty valid points made on both sides of the argument. It kind of comes down to equity in marching band. When I marched with Flushing, we always thought it was unfair that Plymouth got to have two high schools to build a band from and we just had one (that was several years before Plymouth-Canton added a third high school, yes I am old as dirt). The rule in both MCBA (or MCBDA as it was known back then, like I said I am old) and BOA (at least was still BOA and not MBA when I was in it) was that you could form one marching band from multiple high schools only if those schools were in the same school district. There have been stipulations that some private schools could merge (I think if they combined a school(s) for all boys with a school(s) for all girls). That is still pretty much the rule today. Now while I thought the rule was horrible back in my high school days, reading my previous post about the struggles PCEP has had recently has altered my view quite a bit. Back in the 1970s, when PCEP (Plymouth-Centennial Education Park as it was called back then) entered MCBDA (which was very much in its early stages at that time), their argument was likely the point that the Plymouth Canton school district could have just as easily built one high school on their campus instead of two. It would not have affected the student pool upon which the band had to choose from. I believe that is why the MCBDA rule came about that the band could be from multiple high schools as long as they were in the same district. For PCEP, their high schools are literally all next to each other like buildings on a compact college campus and students actually go back and forth between buildings for classes. The schools also all use the same football field (although now there is one field for varsity and one for JV), a somewhat unique situation. In recent decades there has been a lot of growing suburban school districts, many of which have built more than one high school. On the flip side, there have been other fast growing suburban districts that just built a larger high school or added onto their existing high school, forming this mega large high school. Carmel HS IN is a perfect example of this. Carmel has been one of the fastest growing cities in Indiana for several years. They could have easily built another high school, say a Carmel North and a Carmel South or something to that affect. If current rules about having a band from multiple schools did not exist, then the Carmel school district would have to fund two competitive marching bands. Meanwhile, another rapidly growing school district (let us assume the exact same size as the Carmel example) that opted not to build a second high school but simply add on to their existing one (or build a big brand new mega high school) simply has to fund one competitive marching band. So what you now have are two school districts, which let us assume are the same size with the exact same tax revenue coming in. One school district only has to provide funding for one competitive high school marching band, while the other has to fund two programs. So is it fair that just because one school district opted not to create a second high school that that district now gets to put all of its available resources into just one band as to the other district which must now fund two? I would say no. Now the state of Texas has created a bit of a gray area as its UIL districts are simply massive. I think in most instances one Texas UIL district would encompass three, four, five or more districts in other states. Combining one marching band per each Texas UIL district would leave a lot of kids out of marching band. I mean look how many schools and marching band students are in the Leander ISD alone. As it looks now, I don't think the Texas high schools are lacking interest in marching band. I do however see how the organization of Texas school districts can create an issue when it comes to marching band mergers. There is certainly not an easy answer to this issue. In recent years, I know that most of the high school marching band mergers that occurred were because of financial strain and declining enrollment in the marching band. In all of the mergers that I am aware of, the result was not a 300+ member marching band that just destroyed the competition. In fact, in recent years the membership for many of them have been dropping, PCEP and MPLT are examples (for MPLT I am thinking back to the couple years after the merger). In my earlier post about PCEP, I mention some of the issues that Michigan school districts have been facing, and they have been facing them for a very long time. I will give two instances of recent mergers in Michigan. The first is Huron Valley. The Huron Valley school district has two high schools, Milford and Lakeland. Both of those school had strong competitive marching band programs in the 1990s and 2000s (Lakeland actually went back into the 80s). In recent years, both marching bands were suffering from loss in enrollment. The district was also having difficult funding two competitive marching band programs (and let's face it, the cost of competitive marching bands has been going up). The solution was to merge the two bands to form the Huron Valley marching band. The other example is the Walled Lake marching band. Walled Lake consisted of one high school many years ago. The Walled Lake School District actually encompasses Commerce Township, Wixom, Walled Lake and portions of Novi and White Lake Twp. These areas have seen significant population increases going back to the 1960s. In 1969, the district built Walled Lake Central (instead of building a larger high school) and renamed Walled Lake to Walled Lake Western. Then in 2002 (not having much room to expand Central) they built a third high school, Walled Lake Northern. Walled Lake has had a very strong music program from elementary up through high school. Although all three high schools had a marching band, it was Central (likely due to their director) that developed a strong competitive marching band program, even winning three state titles and doing quite well in BOA. School financing and declining enrollment in music education were starting to have impacts on the marching band program. So a few years ago, the decision was made to merge the band programs at Central and Western to form the Walled Lake Consolidated Marching Band. I am interested to see if Northern joins that merger at some point down the road. There are some that have declared that it is not fair that they are allowed to do that. However, if the Walled Lake Schools had decided 50 some years ago that they should just build one really large high school to accommodate the population growth in their district, today instead of three mid sized high schools, there would just be one large school and one marching band. Essentially there would not be much to complain about because a merger would have never happened. There are other districts in Michigan with competitive marching bands that have seen rapidly rising enrollment due to population increases. Grand Blanc is an example. They simply added onto their high school as opposed to building a second high school. If they had built a second high school and band mergers were not allowed, they would then have to try to fund two marching bands. Another example is Rockford. What Rockford did was build a separate school for just the Freshman. We certainly would not expect school districts that have two high schools, one for Freshman or Freshman/Sophomore and one for Juniors/Seniors to form two marching bands. In looking back at high school marching band programs from the 60s and 70s, it is quite apparent that the enrollment of what was considered a large high school back then in most instances was not nearly the size of today. So we have a much larger spread between small school enrollments and large school enrollments then in years/decades past. So that has certainly added a layer of complexity as to how to arrange competitions and class/divisions to make things as fair as possible, certainly not easy. It is at least important to note that in most competitive marching band circuits, your class or division or whatever term is used is based on the enrollment of the high school(s) that comprises the marching band. So if there is a marching band merger, the new class/division is based on the combined enrollment of all high schools comprising the marching band. OK I have rambled on and on. Those are just my thoughts. Like I said, not an easy solution and certainly a topic that is always open for debate. |
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Post by bandirectorman on Oct 23, 2022 12:44:37 GMT -6
There's an ongoing debate that has largely been ignored across the country and that is of the combined district bands. Combining multiple public high schools into one marching band in order to compete with individual public high schools. While not true for O'Fallon, certainly is true on some level within Plymouth, Lawrence Twp., Lincoln-Way, Normal (IL) and probably more on the horizon. None of the arts organizations seem to want to touch this or classify these groups properly from a competitive standpoint, so while it's not illegal, that explains why you can see robust numbers or growth in some programs as well. It is not always the case nor does it always equal sustained success, but I think it's highly unethical. Basically, maintaining a band program, as many on here can attest, requires the right combination of feeder schools and aligned instruction across the grade levels, a good balance of instrumentation in order to feed into the high school program, and seeing the high school band experience as a fun, exciting, and maybe even competitively successful opportunity. I don't know what it's like for private high schools, but for the public ones, like mine, it all starts in grade school and being accessible for students to feel welcome. If you can get numbers and a baseline of fundamentals for most freshmen on day one, you're in the driver's seat. I am always amazed how one program, who will remain nameless, combines kids from non-feeder schools and turns their ensemble into a highly competitive & successful group. But for public high schools, the formula is fairly straight forward. Also, might I add, not doing field shows that are extremely lame & embarrass your students, helps too. I know of one colleague who alienated 15-20% of his band by doing a show focused on extremely lame content about little kids and dancing through meadows. Know your community. This has been an ongoing debate for a very long time. There have always been pretty valid points made on both sides of the argument. It kind of comes down to equity in marching band. When I marched with Flushing, we always thought it was unfair that Plymouth got to have two high schools to build a band from and we just had one (that was several years before Plymouth-Canton added a third high school, yes I am old as dirt). The rule in both MCBA (or MCBDA as it was known back then, like I said I am old) and BOA (at least was still BOA and not MBA when I was in it) was that you could form one marching band from multiple high schools only if those schools were in the same school district. There have been stipulations that some private schools could merge (I think if they combined a school(s) for all boys with a school(s) for all girls). That is still pretty much the rule today. Now while I thought the rule was horrible back in my high school days, reading my previous post about the struggles PCEP has had recently has altered my view quite a bit. Back in the 1970s, when PCEP (Plymouth-Centennial Education Park as it was called back then) entered MCBDA (which was very much in its early stages at that time), their argument was likely the point that the Plymouth Canton school district could have just as easily built one high school on their campus instead of two. It would not have affected the student pool upon which the band had to choose from. I believe that is why the MCBDA rule came about that the band could be from multiple high schools as long as they were in the same district. For PCEP, their high schools are literally all next to each other like buildings on a compact college campus and students actually go back and forth between buildings for classes. The schools also all use the same football field (although now there is one field for varsity and one for JV), a somewhat unique situation. In recent decades there has been a lot of growing suburban school districts, many of which have built more than one high school. On the flip side, there have been other fast growing suburban districts that just built a larger high school or added onto their existing high school, forming this mega large high school. Carmel HS IN is a perfect example of this. Carmel has been one of the fastest growing cities in Indiana for several years. They could have easily built another high school, say a Carmel North and a Carmel South or something to that affect. If current rules about having a band from multiple schools did not exist, then the Carmel school district would have to fund two competitive marching bands. Meanwhile, another rapidly growing school district (let us assume the exact same size as the Carmel example) that opted not to build a second high school but simply add on to their existing one (or build a big brand new mega high school) simply has to fund one competitive marching band. So what you now have are two school districts, which let us assume are the same size with the exact same tax revenue coming in. One school district only has to provide funding for one competitive high school marching band, while the other has to fund two programs. So is it fair that just because one school district opted not to create a second high school that that district now gets to dump all of its available resources into just one band? I would say no. Now the state of Texas has created a bit of a gray area as its UIL districts are simply massive. I think in most instances one Texas UIL district would encompass three, four, five or more districts in other states. Combining one marching band per each Texas UIL district would leave a lot of kids out of marching band. I mean look how many schools and marching band students are in the Leander ISD alone. As it looks now, I don't think the Texas high schools are lacking interest in marching band. I do however see how the organization of Texas school districts can create an issue when it comes to marching band mergers. There is certainly not an easy answer to this issue. In recent years, I know that most of the high school marching band mergers that occurred were because of financial strain and declining enrollment in the marching band. In all of the mergers that I am aware of, the result was not a 300+ member marching band that just destroyed the competition. In fact, in recent years the membership for many of them have been dropping, PCEP and MPLT are examples (for MPLT I am thinking back to the couple years after the merger). In my earlier post about PCEP, I mention some of the issues that Michigan school districts have been facing, and they have been facing them for a very long time. I will give two instances of recent mergers in Michigan. The first is Huron Valley. The Huron Valley school district has two high schools, Milford and Lakeland. Both of those school had strong competitive marching band programs in the 1990s and 2000s (Lakeland actually went back into the 80s). In recent years, both marching bands were suffering from loss in enrollment. The district was also having difficult funding two competitive marching band programs (and let's face it, the cost of competitive marching bands has been going up). The solution was to merge the two bands to form the Huron Valley marching band. The other example is the Walled Lake marching band. Walled Lake consisted of one high school many years ago. The Walled Lake School District actually encompasses Commerce Township, Wixom, Walled Lake and portions of Novi and White Lake Twp. These areas have seen significant population increases going back to the 1960s. In 1969, the district built Walled Lake Central (instead of building a larger high school) and renamed Walled Lake to Walled Lake Western. Then in 2002 (not having much room to expand Central) they built a third high school, Walled Lake Northern. Walled Lake has had a very strong music program from elementary up through high school. Although all three high schools had a marching band, it was Central (likely due to their director) that developed a strong competitive marching band program, even winning three state titles and doing quite well in BOA. School financing and declining enrollment in music education were starting to have impacts on the marching band program. So a few years ago, the decision was made to merge the band programs at Central and Western to form the Walled Lake Consolidated Marching Band. I am interested to see if Northern joins that merger at some point down the road. There are some that have declared that it is not fair that they are allowed to do that. However, if the Walled Lake Schools had decided 50 some years ago that they should just build one really large high school to accommodate the population growth in their district, today instead of three mid sized high schools, there would just be one large school and one marching band. Essentially there would not be much to complain about because a merger would have never happened. There are other districts in Michigan with competitive marching bands that have seen rapidly rising enrollment due to population increases. Grand Blanc is an example. They simply added onto their high school as opposed to building a second high school. If they had built a second high school and band mergers were not allowed, they would then have to try to fund two marching bands. Another example is Rockford. What Rockford did was build a separate school for just the Freshman. We certainly would not expect school districts that have two high schools, one for Freshman or Freshman/Sophomore and one for Juniors/Seniors to form two marching bands. In looking back at high school marching band programs from the 60s and 70s, it is quite apparent that the enrollment of what was considered a large high school back then in most instances was not nearly the size of today. So we have a much larger spread between small school enrollments and large school enrollments then in years/decades past. So that has certainly added a layer of complexity as to how to arrange competitions and class/divisions to make things as fair as possible, certainly not easy. It is at least important to note that in most competitive marching band circuits, your class or division or whatever term is used is based on the enrollment of the high school(s) that comprises the marching band. So if there is a marching band merger, the new class/division is based on the combined enrollment of all high schools comprising the marching band. OK I have rambled on and on. Those are just my thoughts. Like I said, not an easy solution and certainly a topic that is always open for debate. I want as many students to be in band as possible & to have experiences that last a lifetime. We, however, live in a COMPETITIVE arena where some kids perform more times than others. While I recognize that there is no way to even the playing field across the nation and every group's challenges are unique, I would like to think that we have evolved enough to police this better. Plymouth's story of students ATTENDING classes together as part of a complex is far different than the one group I have a major problem with. This school district has virtually zero overlap other than for marching band. It's a group that can and has supported multiple high schools, with some success, at BOA events. As long as BOA is in the competition and not exhibition/showcase business, semifinalist slots, and regional/national finalist slots based on score, this is an extremely valid point. I am all for BOA providing a group like the one I am thinking of, comprised of three unique high schools with zero overlap, their exhibition performance, even at the end of an event. It can be scored and they can be evaluated. I pick on them because they are one of the more egregious examples. There is nothing ethical about relying on three unique high schools to field a halfway competitive band. Obviously, it doesn't guarantee success, but it's highly disrespectful to the other groups who they are competing with. BOA allows it to happen, but they can never actually classify the group as the school they represent. They instead have to make up a name. If we don't want to have high school bands representing specific high schools, let's do something totally different. That's fine. But as long as these are singular high schools competing w/ one another, we should be better and disallow direct competition with groups who do not view this as a high school contest but rather a district-wide talent show. |
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Post by elsie on Oct 23, 2022 13:06:42 GMT -6
Sounds like somebody lost to Lincoln-Way recently
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Post by Jake W. on Oct 23, 2022 13:33:16 GMT -6
Sounds like somebody lost to Lincoln-Way recently Maybe or maybe not, but that doesn't change @banddirectorman's relevant points regarding the ethics of combining schools into one band. Half of me agrees that it's unethical and half of me argues for each individual band's unique circumstances and why they felt the need to combine - in Lincoln-Way's case, a truly interesting and bizarre financial pit that the district found themselves in, of which closing a high school that had just been built a decade prior was the most outward sign. I have to imagine the arts budgets at the three remaining high schools were cut severely. This is not a note on the ethics of combining bands, which I will leave to others to discuss, but since this is a recruiting thread, I'll note that despite all of the hand-wringing about single-district bands, not one of them (Lawrence, Columbus, Normal, Walled Lake, Huron Valley, Forest Hills, Lincoln-Way) has risen beyond, or often even to, the levels of success that the individual programs enjoyed before merging. MPLT made GN Finals their first year in existence, yes, but hasn't done so since, and even L-W has failed to match the 15th place in GN Semis that LWE garnered in 2010, just over 2 points outside of GN Finals. I know L-W hasn't attended GN since they first merged, and everyone in the marching community was hot on their '17-'19 Super Regional successes, but I remain skeptical that it would have translated to end-of-season results that were equally as stunning. One could argue that Forest Hills making Semis after merging was more success than either of their predecessors ever found, but I think Turpin could have made GN Semis here & there - they never attended, though. All that is to say, while ethical or not, I think schools combining bands across a district is unilaterally a sign that things - whether in the band program or in the district as a whole - are not going well. I view it more as struggling programs making a desperate act, and it really has yet to result in either sustained large numbers of kids participating or new, previously-unseen scores of success, because whatever issues that caused the schools to combine bands are generally still present after combining. |
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Post by boahistorybuff on Oct 23, 2022 13:37:18 GMT -6
It's all good bandirectorman. I understand your frustration. Like I said, this is a debate that has been ongoing for many years. I am not familiar too much with the circumstances of the particular program you are referencing. I do respect your opinion. Like I said, I think this debate has valid arguements on both sides. I am sure every situation is somewhat unique. I think the situations of one band from multiple high schools has evolved a bit differently than the circumstances which originally led to allowing these things. I already gave the example of PCEP, which is very unique as there are a lot of things intertwined among those three high schools. Another example goes back to the old MBA era of the 1970s. Crystal Lake HS from IL was a finalist at the 1976 and 1977 Grand Nationals. A second high school was then built in the district and opened around 1978. Rather than form a second marching band, Crystal Lake kept their award winning band but included students from both high schools. They kept their name and just changed their mascot from the Tiger band to the Heraldry guard. So my point as I take my usual tangent to the past is that I dont think it was ever conceived that this rule would be used as a means for two marching bands to merge. So has this been a loophole that should be fixed or is it something that should continue? This is a rhetorical question as I do not have an easy answer. I do know that had this rule not existed in Michigan, Lakeland and Milford HS marching bands would probably have ceased to be competitive and Walled Lake Central may have folded as well. So for those reasons, I support it. Now when I was in high school and we were getting our butts kicked by Plymouth (a band from two high schools), I would have said end this rule, it sucks. |
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 24, 2022 7:42:14 GMT -6
Sounds like somebody lost to Lincoln-Way recently Elsie reappears with the helpful and snarky comments. (I’m starting to wonder if Elsie is a man from Dallas). |
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Post by dbalash on Oct 24, 2022 7:58:57 GMT -6
Sounds like somebody lost to Lincoln-Way recently Uhhhh....Lincoln-Way and O'Fallon haven't gone up against each other this year? |
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Post by nomorehoney on Oct 24, 2022 9:16:30 GMT -6
Sounds like somebody lost to Lincoln-Way recently what is classified as "losing" in this activity? |
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Post by Shroom on Oct 28, 2022 11:46:18 GMT -6
Biggest thing with O'Fallon is that they don't cut anyone. Because of that, if you sign up you literally have a guaranteed opportunity to go to somewhere like Disney or to march in Macy's so it's extremely tantalizing for a large part of the school to march in it. We are so much bigger nowadays compared to the tarp years is because the program just wasn't really as established leading up to them, and it takes a couple years of success to really get band to be appealing to people who aren't already pretty invested in it, and it was the tarp years that acted as those years of success.
A factor too is how insane growth has been in the Metro East area. I've noticed that a lot of people here have only been here for less than 10 years or so, and a lot of those people are also from Illinois. It seems like a lot of people want to move away from the crappier parts of Illinois to somewhere along the Metro East where there is still opportunity, and while I don't think the music program is specifically a reason for why people have been moving here in droves, it's definitely a large factor when presented with what town they want to live in compared to those around us. Another factor too is that OFT is right next to Scott Air Force base, since a good amount of people decide to settle in the area after they retire and they usually choose OFT to settle in due to the music program and the living standards of the area. I'm a degree separated from the main line, though I am related to the original family that founded OFT and because of that my family and I have lived here and in the area for a very long time, and while it's shocking to see the amount of growth we've experienced in the past 10 or so years, hearing from my family how rural this area truly was 30 or so years ago is even more so.
I don't really have any data to back it up I guess but what I'm getting at is that people are already moving to the area around OFT, and out of those people the musically inclined population tend to settle here rather than other towns.
tl;dr: OFT has a big pool of people to recruit from and they don't cut basically any of them.
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Post by ankleknee on Oct 28, 2022 15:00:47 GMT -6
O’Fallon made cuts for the tarp shows, iirc. O'Fallon doesn't have tryouts and does not cut anyone. There are alternates so not everyone marches in competitions, but those alternates are swapped into other opportunities (parades, football games, etc.), and the number of alternates stays pretty consistent year-to-year. But to answer the original question, there are probably a number of factors in play... 1. A number of years ago, a 5th grade band program was started at the two biggest feeder junior high schools. It was completely voluntary before-school program, that, in my opinion, had the effect of locking students into an elective track so that they stayed in band throughout junior high. If I remember the timeline correctly, the first class of 5th graders were freshmen during the first "tarp year" in 2017 and they graduated during the cancelled COVID year. So last year and this year are really the first year they're seeing the benefits of that program throughout all high school grade levels. 2. A Rose Parade trip and Macy's Parade trip within 3 years really helps with recruiting. There are plenty of other factors that also may play into it - a great staff, increased success on the field, very supportive boosters and community and probably even some perceived "cool factor" with the tarps for those two years. |
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Post by ankleknee on Oct 28, 2022 15:08:33 GMT -6
One other event occurred a number of years ago that could have had an impact. The music programs in the O’Fallon grade schools were cut due to the failure of a tax referendum. This likely impacted O’Fallon’s band membership numbers around the “tarp years”. The fifth grade program that was started was likely a result of a program developed and led by volunteers (called “Lifelong Music in O’Fallon Schools”), which raised money to privately fund grade school level music, as band supporters knew the elimination of music in the grade schools would, over time, be significantly detrimental to what at the time was a significantly up and coming program. As I understand it, the music programs have since been reinstated in the grade school district, and the greater numbers in the marching band today are likely a reflection of that. Kudos to the community for supporting the music and marching arts!
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Post by boahistorybuff on Oct 28, 2022 15:46:37 GMT -6
I have seen many schools in Michigan have to cut elementary music because of funding cuts. It is one of the first things a district will put on the chopping blocks when faced with budget problems. I am not sure if this happened in the Plymouth Canton schools, but I suspect it has. It really hurts the enrollment and talent levels in the high school band programs.
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