|
|
Post by cybrunette on Apr 11, 2023 23:44:28 GMT -6
Alright, championship weekend is about to pop off.. so let's talk BA & Vandy!
Not sure if this topic has been brought up before on this forum, but I think we can all agree these are the 2 programs in the entire country that easily have the ability & resources to create Scholastic World caliber guards & actually put up strong competition with the other heavy hitters. I know Vandegrift has their own dance / performance studio & if I'm not mistaken Broken Arrow is somewhat similar with theirs as well, correct? So what's the deal with their continued absence in winter season? Even if they compete in other forms of dance throughout Winter & Spring, I don't see why there wouldn't be enough interest to expand and start competing especially with how large their guards already are. I truly think it's finally time they roll in to stir things up.
I feel like this is a similar situation to Tarpon not having a drumline until recently & the addition of one just completely changing the game for them.
Anyways, let's hear every ones thoughts? Or is this just a bad take on my end? Lol
|
|
|
|
Post by principalagent on Apr 15, 2023 12:36:56 GMT -6
Vandegrift doesn't use weapons at all and barely uses flags. There's no way they're going into WGI without massive philosophy changes. They would have to start in A class, if honestly not Regional A. Open would be a massive challenge and World a nonstarter.
Since Broken Arrow now uses weapons (although I'm still not sure they're doing so *fully* because they want to) there's a better chance they go into WGI sooner or later. Especially since their drums started going and are seeing more success year after year. Not to mention that guards in Cartwright bands are having banner years in WGI (DB, Mason, Brownsburg to name a few). However, it just doesn't seem like a priority for their program.
|
|
|
|
Post by cybrunette on Apr 15, 2023 12:52:25 GMT -6
Vandegrift doesn't use weapons at all and barely uses flags. There's no way they're going into WGI without massive philosophy changes. They would have to start in A class, if honestly not Regional A. Open would be a massive challenge and World a nonstarter. Since Broken Arrow now uses weapons (although I'm still not sure they're doing so *fully* because they want to) there's a better chance they go into WGI sooner or later. Especially since their drums started going and are seeing more success year after year. Not to mention that guards in Cartwright bands are having banner years in WGI (DB, Mason, Brownsburg to name a few). However, it just doesn't seem like a priority for their program. That's what I was alluding to in them 'creating' SW guards. From how I see it if those 2 programs really planned things out they could achieve the top half of SW in a handful of years just by using their names & resources available to them |
|
|
|
Post by paddy on Apr 15, 2023 14:48:00 GMT -6
It would reinforce lots of whispers, innuendo, and suspicion if either of those went from no WGI participation to the top half of SW in a few years.
|
|
|
|
Post by principalagent on Apr 15, 2023 16:41:44 GMT -6
I think Broken Arrow could now that they’re doing weapon work in the fall. And while SW finals is pretty strong this year, normally the bottom half is… something!
Vandegrift making top half of SW finals within five years would definitely be a surprise. They would just have much further to tread. It would require a complete paradigm shift versus BA, which only requires a change in priorities.
|
|
|
|
Post by LeanderMomma on Apr 20, 2023 10:47:55 GMT -6
I used to be firmly in the “Vandegrift needs a guard” camp but I have changed my stance since they won GN. They are doing just fine with their lovely and talented dance team and it makes them unique. I don’t want to see that change.
By the way, Vandy’s dance team has their own dance performances several times a year just like a band concert season. They are their own entity and are not at all a colorguard/winterguard.
|
|
|
|
Post by marimba11 on Apr 21, 2023 9:58:28 GMT -6
I used to be firmly in the “Vandegrift needs a guard” camp but I have changed my stance since they won GN. They are doing just fine with their lovely and talented dance team and it makes them unique. I don’t want to see that change. By the way, Vandy’s dance team has their own dance performances several times a year just like a band concert season. They are their own entity and are not at all a colorguard/winterguard. I agree. And the BOA sheets obviously don't require otherwise to fulfill the visual caption. If BOA started adding caption judges/ awards (like DCI) then I think we would see a lot of groups up their guard and percussion programs and take more of a dive into the indoor circuits. Right now, many bands can do well with pretty basic guards and drumlines, (ie Wando). Having a great guard can certainly help the visual caption a lot, but that can also come down to specific panel too. |
|
|
|
Post by philodemus on Apr 21, 2023 13:17:12 GMT -6
This kind of reminds me of the 'judges on the field' debate that DCI had. Drum guys argued you can't hear or see the important nuances from the stands... and the rest of us said, "Well, if you can't hear it from the stands...?"
Guard folks don't like hearing it, but a lot of the subtleties of what they do are invisible from the box in the outdoor setting, which allows groups with half the training to be just as effective as long as the flags all go up and down together. That's why most guard folks eventually come to prefer indoor.
That said, I like guards better than dance teams and I'm glad BA is moving in the happy direction. Maybe the Viperettes will as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by LeanderMomma on Apr 21, 2023 14:14:40 GMT -6
This kind of reminds me of the 'judges on the field' debate that DCI had. Drum guys argued you can't hear or see the important nuances from the stands... and the rest of us said, "Well, if you can't hear it from the stands...?" Guard folks don't like hearing it, but a lot of the subtleties of what they do are invisible from the box in the outdoor setting, which allows groups with half the training to be just as effective as long as the flags all go up and down together. That's why most guard folks eventually come to prefer indoor. That said, I like guards better than dance teams and I'm glad BA is moving in the happy direction. Maybe the Viperettes will as well. I prefer guards as well but I’m no longer opposed to Vandy having a (dang good) dance team who also happens to spin flags at opportune moments. |
|
|
|
Post by marimba11 on Apr 21, 2023 14:58:18 GMT -6
Yeah, Vandy's dance team I would say is very nuanced. I'm not an expert, but perhaps they are the exception on the whole to other groups that go the dance route vs heavy guard route.
I do agree though with philodemus. I think a lot of small details on the guard front can certainly get lost outside -that seems pretty correct to me. Once again that can also come to the panel, and even what the judge(s) see or don't see on any given sample.
|
|
|
|
Post by cybrunette on Apr 21, 2023 15:27:59 GMT -6
I used to be firmly in the “Vandegrift needs a guard” camp but I have changed my stance since they won GN. They are doing just fine with their lovely and talented dance team and it makes them unique. I don’t want to see that change. By the way, Vandy’s dance team has their own dance performances several times a year just like a band concert season. They are their own entity and are not at all a colorguard/winterguard. I agree, I think their fielded fall dance team brings something special that we don't normally see within the big named bands. I enjoy it & their flag work is enough to serve as a nice sound testament to their incredible horn line with the numbers they have. I think unless you have a group that can choreograph their guard like Avon Woodlands or Tarpon does on a marching field, it turns into what philodemus was speaking on. For example a lot of what Carmels guard used as props in 2022 looked invisible from a distance & I didn't understand what they were trying to do. My take is more towards winter guard. I would never want them to lose their dance team, just feel like they're capable of growing! |
|
|
|
Post by thewho on Apr 21, 2023 17:46:18 GMT -6
I think the nuance that gets lost in the whole discussion is that this is a high school activity- these exist for the enrichment of the students. As such, directors do what they believe provides the most well-rounded opportunities the program can offer, whether that be competitive results, giving a platform (for a performance, so to speak), challenges, etc. I quite enjoy the marching arts quite a bit on the high school level because there is a very wide swath of styles that are allowed to succeed in the competitive arena, color guards included.
It should be note that the BOA criteria generally never really explicitly states that weapons are required, rather more of emphasizing the GE created instead. There's certainly some side-eying with some cases that toy around with this definition (e.g. BA jettisoning weapons entirely for a few years before rule changes brought weapons back into fold), but I do appreciate that color guards are allowed to play on a level playing field in that guards are allowed incorporate their style without being penalized discriminately. Achievement being a part of the criteria is a fair argument, but I'd argue there's another niche that suits this far better given content focus, barrier of entry, and support... WGI.
Dance integration isn't an unfamiliar thing to BOA. I don't know if this is still a continuing case, but Ronald Reagan brought in their dance team for the Morrison years and used them to absolutely amazing effect. The ridiculous size of the guard that year meant that RR didn't need to stretch their band to occupy the whole field, so the band could do really interesting drill within a contained location without being strictly restricted. E.g. the band can spend time up front, but then get sent to the backfield later on in the show without backdrops "blocking" that field.
For this case, Vandegrift decided to integrate the dance program into the color guard. I'm no dance expert so I couldn't tell you the exact nuances so much as be able to point them out 250 ft away with my perfect 1000000/1000000 vision, but I do realize there's certain appreciation to be made to be able to provide surprisingly distinct choreography for nearly 7-8 minutes. It's clear these performers have a lot of experience to be able perform complex choreography- so I would absolutely choose to perform to that strength instead of stunting that development with weapons.
One of things I do knock on Spicer, Sacktig, and co. for is the relatively stagnant drill that Vandegrift keeps receiving. I get the stylistic choice to give less visual content to focus on music instead (which is a perfectly valid choice), but you really can't tell me the guard isn't capable of zooming around on the field, especially when the Westman SFA years exist! I absolutely love the Westman years, because he got really fun and creative with the dance team drill- never being afraid to stretch the whole team, throwing crazy drill moves at them, all the whilst running (I think 90% of their interesting choreography was just upper body and the rest was just running)! It'd be pretty neat to see not just the integration of Vandy's own dance style, but incorporate the spirit of marching arts into their choreography.
|
|
