Discussing the Past, Interviews/Stories/Discussions

[boahistorybuff]

This is a new thread I am trying out. I will post from time to time. Fell free to add. 

[boahistorybuff]

Virtual Discussion From Some of the 1990 PCEP Staff

This is a must see video of a recent discussion from some of the key staff of the 1990 Grand National Champion Plymouth Centennial Education Park marching band. This includes their director at the time Glen Adsit. 

A couple things I want to mention to add to this discussion. Yes, in Michigan the percussion judges were not kind to them. Percussion was the only caption that my band, Flushing could beat them in that season. At the start of the season, nobody thought it possible that Plymouth would be crowned Grand National Champion that year. It was at the late season BOA Toledo Regional (which they won) when there began to be talk about Plymouth being a serious contender to win Grand Nationals. Another interesting fact, the 1990 Flushing color guard captain is now married to Patrick Ruddy. They have been married a long time and have two daughters. 

[es203]

I have a flo interview with the Avon design team in 2019 saved somewhere on my phone, I’ll go looking for it.

[kvgdc]

This seems to fit this thread.

A local Ft. Wayne reporter sat down with Barry Ashton to reminisce about his years at Northrop.


www.21alivenews.com/2023/11/10/linda-likes-it-former-northrop-band-director-barry-ashton/

[thewho]

Jun 20, 2024 16:30:46 GMT -6 kvgdc said:

This seems to fit this thread.

A local Ft. Wayne reporter sat down with Barry Ashton to reminisce about his years at Northrop.


www.21alivenews.com/2023/11/10/linda-likes-it-former-northrop-band-director-barry-ashton/

Great interview! Barry's a legend in Fort Wayne.

[thewho]

On the heels of that, that reminded me of an interview a long time ago in 2011 with Steve Barber, the former director of bands at Homestead the day after Homestead won state finals for the first time in 15 years with a unprecedented upset over Avon.

[kvgdc]

Nice! Watkins was long time assistant there of course. I marched with him at Northrop. He's one of the many eventual band directors Barry taught.

[hewhowaits]

Jun 20, 2024 16:48:00 GMT -6 thewho said:

a long time ago in 2011

So cute that you think 12.5 years in the past was "a long time ago."

[OldSchoolTrumpet]

Jun 20, 2024 16:48:00 GMT -6 thewho said:

On the heels of that, that reminded me of an interview a long time ago in 2011 with Steve Barber, the former director of bands at Homestead the day after Homestead won state finals for the first time in 15 years with a unprecedented upset over Avon.

That seems like just last week. What a happy time for the program. Sadly, Mrs. Barber would pass away after a sudden illness just before the 2016 season. That season would be Mr. Barber's last at Homestead. A local TV station did a nice piece on him:

[boahistorybuff]

A Symphonic Band on the Marching Field - The Illinois Effect

NOTE: One of the Marian Catholic YouTube Accounts was deleted after this was posted.

A lot changed in the marching arts during the course of the 1980s, not just the design style. Marching bands and drum corps developed a much richer sound and were placing more and more emphasis on things like musical phrasing. While the development of the grounded percussion front line ensemble helped, that was just a part of the changes that made things seem more 'musical'. Not to say that the programs of the 1960s and 1970s did not have that stuff, it was just that the 1980s saw a much stronger focus and development of musical technique on the field. That was also the case for high school marching bands. Competitive high school marching bands of the 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s often seemed to sound more like a blend of a college half time band and a drum and bugle corps. Woodwinds did have features at times, but marching bands still seemed to have a very brassy and percussion heavy sound. During the course of the 1980s, bands started utilizing woodwinds more heavily and improved greatly on things like musical technique and phrasing. Now Illinois was not the only state that had bands that helped bring an improved level of musicality to the field (Rocky Mount NC, West Genesee NY, Westfield TX to name a few). However, three Illinois bands in particular were very much pioneers in this endeavor. 

Perhaps the earliest band to deliver this more musically focused style was Herscher HS, from Herscher, Illinois. In my opinion, this small town band was one of the most influential during those early years of competitive marching. With a high school of only around 700 total, Herscher fielding a band of at least 120 members back in the 1970s and early 1980s. Like many bands of that era, they had both a summer and fall competitive season. Herscher attended the first four MBA Grand Nationals (held in the summer) during the late 1970s. They made finals at two of them; 1976 (the very first MBA Grand Nationals) and again in 1978. It was during the first three years of the 1980s that Herscher hit the big time. Their director during these years was Tim Salzman. Not only was he a director, he was a brilliant music arranger. 

In 1980, Herscher made finals at the MBA Summer Nationals (Grand National had moved to the fall that year) and they won the Class A Title. NOTE: Summer National was still very prestigious during the early 1980s before the fall competition took center stage. During the fall of that year, they won the overall title at the Illinois State (the de facto Illinois State Championships) Marching Band Competition. Stylistically, their show was very much like what was common during that era. The back corner entrance (with the axis of symmetry at a 45 degree angle) was a very common way many bands started their show back then. Here is their performance at the 1980 Summer Nationals: 




Then came the 1981 season. I wish I could find the more detailed write up about what Herscher did this season (it was something I read a very long time ago). In short, Mr. Salzman wanted to bring a more symphonic band sound to the marching band. His idea was that a marching band did not always have to play loud. There could be delicate moments. I remember reading that he felt that woodwinds were not being featured as much as they should and something to the effect that he felt too many directors were afraid that they would not be able to be in tune during changing weather conditions. Mr. Salzman went about changing that myth. He arranged a show that featured woodwinds significantly more than shows in the past. His arrangement of Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra (a piece that was very common even back then) was styled much more like a symphonic band would perform it, not how marching bands performed it during that era. That show was taken to the 1981 MBA Summer National and turned a lot of heads. Herscher ended up finishing 2nd overall, won the Class A Title and won the award for brass/winds. During their fall competitive season, Herscher again won the overall Illinois State Marching Competition. I read an article on that competition that called their fall show a masterpiece. Although the 1981 performance video is not on line, here is the audio version of the 1981 MBA Summer Nationals Finals Performance. 



Herscher's brilliance then continued through the 1982 season. At the Summer Nationals (with bands like Chesterton IN and Norwin PA in attendance), Herscher placed first overall, becoming Summer National Champions. They continued with their symphonic band style sound with another very common musical piece of the day, Appalachian Spring. They topped that off with a very successful fall season too. That including winning the Illinois State Competition for the third year in a row. Although they did not attend the fall Grand Nationals during the early 1980s, they did attend the 1982 MBA Midwest Regional. They ended up winning the regional title by beating several prominent Indiana bands like Chesterton, Northrop and Ben Davis. This made them the very first Illinois band to win a BOA (MBA) Regional Title. After the 1982 competitive season, Mr. Salzman left Herscher for other opportunities. His departure caused a very abrupt end to the success that the band had had for the previous three years. Herscher has however maintained a competitive marching program ever since.

Here is their winning performance from the 1982 Summer Nationals. 



During those years when Herscher was turning heads with their symphonic band style, there were two band directors in Illinois (both brilliant arrangers) who were in the midst of building champion marching band programs. I have never actually read any interviews where these directors specifically mentioned how much Tim Salzman and Herscher influenced them, so there is certainly some speculation here. However, I have to believe that they were heavily influenced. Both of these directors took that symphonic band style to whole new levels during the course of the 1980s. They would create shows that had brilliant balance between brass, percussion and woodwinds. They would have loud up-tempo moments and soft, quiet and delicate moments, all brilliantly arranged into a 9 to 11 minute show. The music was full of nuance with superb phrasing. In fact, the last two years of the decade would see those two Illinois bands go 1 and 2 at Grand Nationals. Those directors were Ken Scnoeck of Lake Park and Greg Bimm of Marian Catholic. The shows that they created were in of themselves, masterpieces for the times. 

Just three short years after Herscher won the Summer National Title, Marian Catholic won their first BOA Grand National Title. Much like Herscher in 1982, Marian Catholic's 1985 win was notable for the sophistication of its music. Their soft and slow performance of Pie Jesu was unlike any other band had attempted at the time. I am sure that at the time of that win, no one realized what was yet to come from that band. 

Here is that first BOA GN Title for Marian (others in the late 80s are online). 




Although their rise to the top at Grand Nationals was a little slower, Lake Park was no slouch. After finishing 2nd at Grand Nationals in 1988 (where they were over 5 points behind Marian), Lake Park was again 2nd in 1989. This time, they were only three tenths of point behind Marian. They did win the GN Class AAA Title for the second year in a row. At GN Finals in 1989, while Marian took overall GE, Lake Park won both music and visual performance. Although the type of music performed was very different from Marian, Lake Park also had an absolutely brilliant and well balanced music arrangement. Like Marian, they too made great use of woodwinds. In fact, in the late 1980s, I don't think any other bands woodwind sections could touch Marian or Lake Park. 

Here is the 1989 Grand National Finals Performance of Lake Park (the video has been enhanced). In my opinion, this was the best performance of the entire 1980s decade that did not win the Grand National Title. 



During the 1990s, all of the top level high school marching bands performed with a highly nuanced symphonic band style. Aside from Marian and Lake Park, other notable bands included Spring TX, Westfield TX and Lassiter GA. It is amazing to look back of what Herscher did in the early 1980s and see the degree to which that symphonic style sound evolved to during the 1990s. I still think overall, in terms of balance, nuance and technical difficulty, Marian and Lake Park so often seemed to be in a field of their own. I am going to showcase two performances from both of these bands from the 1990s, one will be a GN Champion winning performance, the other is one that I just think the overall music performance was sensational in terms of what was being done in that era.

For Lake Park, I chose 1995 and their GN Champion performance in 1996. They placed 4th in 1995 but were only 0.05 points from tying Westfield TX in music performance. I think their music effect marks could have been higher, but what do I know. I think 1995 Lake Park has always been a highly underrated show.

1995


1996


During the 1990s, Marian Catholic took things to a level that no other high school marching band would have dared go during that era. They performed arrangements that were very close to the actual orchestral versions of the music. During the course of their shows, their music would be in multiple time signatures with frequent tempo changes. In fact, the technical difficulty would just be astonishing, playing to the level of a professional orchestra. A professional orchestra would be seated while performing. Marian however was marching some of the most complex drill routines of the era. I can not tell you how many times we would watch this band perform in GN Finals with our jaws to ground. It was just mind blowing what they did on the field. It was literally an advanced symphonic band performing while moving on a football field. I wonder what Tim Salzman thought when he saw those late 90s/early 2000s era Marian shows?

The shows I chose to showcase for Marian is their 1997 GN Champion Performance and their 1998 GN Finals performance. In 1998, they placed 4th but won music performance over Lassiter. Much like Lake Park in 1995, I always thought the music effect judges should have placed Marian higher in 1998. As often as Pines of Rome has been performed on the field, Marian's 1998 performance remains among the best and most challenging the way it was arranged. 

1997


1998



The reason for this rather lengthy post and perhaps some of the discussion that follows is that I wanted to pay a little homage to what these three bands brought to the competitive marching field. Over the last few years of listening to the amazing music being performed by the top level high school marching bands of today, I wanted everyone to see where and how this came into being. When I listen to the power of Avon, the subtle sophistication of Carmel, the mind boggling technical prowess of Hebron, the phrasing of Vandegrift, the emotion of Broken Arrow, etc, etc etc, there are times when I think back to what these Illinois bands did decades ago and marvel at their influence. 

[boahistorybuff]

While I was not expecting this thread to be too similar to the vintage video thread (planning to look for more interviews and such), this is going to be another string of posts that showcase some vintage videos. The next series of post will be on the evolution of visual design over the roughly 20-30 year period from the 1970s through the 1990s. While I certainly think the last 20 to 30 years has seen a ton of changes in marching band visual design, I don't think it quite matches the rapid pace things evolved during the 70s, 80s and 90s (especially the 1980s). These will be a series of post to showcase some of the highlights. While I tried to get all high cam versions, some of the videos are multicam. I also picked shows in which the bands did very well at the execution of the visual design. 

First, here are three 1970s performance. 

1973 McGavock TN - The band enters the field from the endzone, performs most of the show centered on the 50 yard line, then ends the show while departing at the other endzone. Drill is all block form and linear (you can see how parade formations influenced early design of the field shows). There was no backwards marching. This was how a show was typically designed in the early 70s. 



1975 Dundee IL - The back corner entrance become popular. There is symmetry (albeit offset of the 50 yard line) as the band enters the field, then the drill become focused with the axis of symmetry on the 50 yard line through most of the show. The Dundee Scots were big on the summer competitive circuit. They wore kilts and marched an entire bag pipe section. 



1978 George Rogers Clark KY -  By the late 1970s, bands typically entered the field from the back corner, or more commonly from the back sideline. The entire show was symmetrical to the 50 yard line. During the mid to late 1970s, circles and arcs became common in drill design. This added a layer of complexity as it was more difficult to provide perfect symmetry. 

[boahistorybuff]

Top Drill Styles at the start of the 1980s

While in DCI in 1980, Santa Clara Vanguard shocked everyone by utilizing a section of asymmetry in their drill, unheard of at the time. That would quickly take hold during the course of the decade. 

In high school, things were still all symmetrical in 1980. The top level high school bands of the day used a lot more arcs and circles. Drill transitions also become more complex. This made for a more interesting show to watch. Curvilinear design also started being used, which would allow drill designs to become far more abstract. Top level bands also started marching backwards at time. The top two bands at the 1980 Grand Nationals exhibited what was notable of the top level high school bands of that era. 

1980 Tate FL - Impressive for their frequent use of diagonal lines. Tate also had one of the best guards of the era. 



1980 Flushing MI - A little more abstract designs with some segments of curvilinear drill. Flushing had one of the best percussion sections of the era. 


 

[boahistorybuff]

From Symmetry to Asymmetry

One of the biggest innovations in drill designs of the 1980s was asymmetry. No longer would everything have to be centered on the 50 yard line. This created more uniqueness in visual styles from one band to the next. 

1983 Ben Davis IN - This show was entirely symmetrical. It featured some of the most complex drill designs of the era, featuring a lot of curvilinear and abstract designs. Ben Davis was among the largest bands to compete in MBA/BOA in the early 1980s. Their size made their drill designs look even more impressive. 



1983 West Genesee NY - While bands like Danville KY and Rocky Mount NC were pioneering asymmetrical drill on the MBA/BOA front, West Genesee was doing that in New York. They opening drill segments with the fabrics was very innovative for the time. During the early 1980s, bands that experimented with asymmetry typically only had a small portion of the show in that style, with the rest still being symmetrical to the 50 yard line. 



1984 Chesterton IN - I believe their director at the time, Al Castranovo was also the principal designer. In addition to the segments of asymmetry, this show was innovative in how it incorporated props into overall visual design. This was my favorite Chesterton show by the way.
Part 1 and Part 2




1984 Rocky Mount NC - Designed by the late Gary Czapinski, more than half of the drill was asymmetrical.  If you get a little 1980s era Garfield Cadets vibe, I believe a good number of their instructional staff were also involved with the Cadets. 
Part 1 and Part 2





1986 McGavock TN -  I believe this was the first show in MBA/BOA competition (or at least in GN Finals) that utilized asymmetrical drill design through the entire show, start to finish. 


 

[boahistorybuff]

NOTE: After this was posted, one of the Marian Catholic videos was removed from YouTube
The Steve Brubaker Effect

Steve Brubaker was the drill designer for the Cavalier during the 1980s until his untimely death of brain cancer in 1993. His designs were notable for their use of complex geometric patterns, interesting visual transitions and integration of the guard and percussion into the overall design. It helped having the pit so that tympani and keyboards no longer had to be marched.  To really get a look at his genius, check out some of those Cavalier designs.  Brubaker also designed for many high school bands. He also taught and inspired many drill designers. He greatly changed the look of a drum corps and marching band show. Here are either some of Brubaker's designs or those that were inspired by him. 

1986 Westfield TX - This band essentially upped the anti in terms of visual designs in the state of Texas. During the 1980s, most Texas bands were way behind what other top level bands in the country were doing. Westfield changed that. This was the first Texas marching band that Steve Brubaker wrote the drill for.



1988 Center Grove IN - I know that Center Grove's visual coordinator at the time was Steve Manning. However, I do not know if he actually wrote the drill. This drill looks to me like it was written by Steve Brubaker. If it was not, it was certainly influenced by him. This show (which did not go to BOA) was one of the most innovative of the decade. The band wore costuming (there is a multi cam version available to see more closely), unheard of in 1988. There was also vocal narration during the show, another very innovative thing for 1988. 



1989 Marian Catholic IL - Greg Bimm was not just the director and music arranger, he also wrote the drill. Many many years ago I read an article by him that suggested he was inspired from and learned from top drill designers of the day. Mr. Bimm seemed to learn the art of drill design during the course of the decade as you could see year by year Marian's designs becoming more intricate and difficult. It culminated with this show in 1989, which had a lot of Brubaker inspired elements. 



1990 Plymouth Centennial Educational Park MI - In 1990 the top two bands in Grand National Finals both had their shows designed by Steve Brubaker. I think this was the first time that the top two shows at nationals had the same designer. I would show Westfield but the only video available is the multi cam which has very little segments of the hi cam to actually get a sense of the drill designs. Here is the champion band PCEP. I do know that 1990 and 1991 PCEP were the only two Brubaker shows to win Grand Nationals. 



1992 Spring TX - In my opinion, this was the best show for a high school band that Steve designer for. In order to pull this off, the band obviously had to be very good. While Spring would turn heads with their Grand National win in 1993, Steve sadly passed away earlier that year and did not design that show. The designer was likely taught by Mr. Brubaker as a lot of his elements were in that 93 show. Anyway, 1992 Spring is still among my favorite drill designs for any high school band; a great homage to Mr. Brubaker.

[boahistorybuff]

The Innovations of the 1990s

Blending visual designs with the music all to fit the theme of the show was common among the most innovative of the shows of the 1990s. It was this synergy of tying everything together that propelled the visual arts into what we see today. Drill designs were also often complex and fast paced. Clean execution of difficult drill moves garnered high points. 

1993 Jackson Academy MS - This band will also be the biggest Cinderella moment at Grand Nationals, when a tiny Class A band made Grand National Finals. With under 40 members total, they are the smallest band to have ever performed in Grand National Finals. They also had one of the most innovative shows of the decade. This included one of the earliest use of a tarp and placement of the pit in the center of the field. What really took this show to a new level was the various body movements, including dancing, by the band. This was unheard of at the time and was quite frankly a good decade or more ahead of its time. 



1995 Center Grove IN - This was taking a marching band show and running it through a funhouse. The tarps, props, musical style and visual moves all echoed that of distortion. 



1997 Center Grove IN - Placing the keyboards/marimbas in an arc on the field and the placement of the tarp all created for a unique visual design. It was exploring ways to make a show more visually interesting. The rainbow colored guard also added to the effect. 



1997 Plymouth-Canton EP MI - This show was innovative for its extensive use of vocal narration to tell a story. While I did not particularly care for the narration, I loved the visual designs in this show. It seemed to expand upon the things that Steve Brubaker had introduced nearly a decade earlier. The show was designed by Alan Spaeth. 



1998 Tarpon Springs FL - Blending props and tarps with the visuals and music was what Tarpon brought to the field in the late 1990s. The band also interacted with the props in a very unique way. I believe their director Kevin Ford was heavily involved in the visual design. Tarpon would go on to be one of BOA biggest visual innovators in the coming decades. 



1999 Plymouth-Canton EP MI - A brilliant way in which the music, props, guard and visual design all worked together to tell a story. This show was designed by Alan Spaeth. It would set a bar for how a show presents a theme to the audience. Look at this show compared to the shows of the 1970s to see how drastically things changed over just a 25 year period. 

[boahistorybuff]

As a Michigander, a Question I Get Asked a Lot, What is an Educational Park?

This post is for those who may be new to the forums or to the activity or simply unaware. 

Even though I did not go there, I have been asked this question and have seen it asked many times; What is an Educational Park? I am of course talking about Plymouth-Canton Educational Park. 

So first off, let me explain it, then you can watch a short video made by some PCEP students about the schools history. 

The Plymouth-Canton School district encompasses the city of Plymouth, Plymouth Township, Canton Township, Salem Township and some of the surrounding area in the western suburbs of Detroit. Prior to the suburban expansion of the late 1950s to present day, this entire area was farmland with the city (or village) of Plymouth being the main commercial hub of the area. It was served by Plymouth High School. Faced with a certain population boom from the expansion of the Detroit suburbs, the school district purchased a large tract of land on the north side of Canton Township (which was once a farm). Rather than build one huge high school on this track of land, the district decided to build two highs schools, with the possibility that additional schools may need to be built in the future. They called this land that the high schools were to be built on, Centennial Educational Park. I think the idea was to create a college campus feel for high school students. In the early 1970s, two high schools were built; Salem HS (back in the day referred to as Plymouth-Salem) and Canton HS (back in the day referred to as Plymouth-Canton HS). The old smaller Plymouth HS was closed. Each high school would have their own sports programs. In terms of being cost effective, only one performing arts program was created for both schools. This included the marching band. So even though the marching band would consist of students from both high schools, they would all be in the same school district, allowed in most marching band circuits. The band was named the Plymouth Centennial Educational Park marching band. In 1993, the name of the park was changed to Plymouth-Canton Educational Park. In 2002, a third high school, Plymouth HS was opened. To avoid confusion, the prefix of Plymouth was dropped from Salem and Canton high school. Those three high schools still share one performing arts program. 

[boahistorybuff]

Vintage Interview With the Esprit de Corps Award Namesake 

Al Castronovo was the director of the Chesterton 'Trojan Guard' Marching Band from Chesterton, IN beginning in the late 1960s and going through the 1984 season. A couple years after he left Chesterton, he sadly passed away in an automobile accident. To honor his contribution to the activity, the Esprit de Corps award was named in his honor. Mr. Castronovo led the Chesterton marching band through its glory years. This included four consecutive Indiana Class A State Titles (78-81), four MBA/BOA Regional Titles, five MBA/BOA Grand National Finals appearances (79,81-84), two Grand National Class AA Titles and one Grand National Title (1981). They are the first Indiana band to win that title. Also, in 1981(?), Chesterton was crowned Grand Champion at the Orange Bowl contest. 

Here is an interview with Mr. Castronovo in 1982. I believe this was after Chesterton's prelims performance at Grand Nationals down in Johnson City, TN. 

[boahistorybuff]

1996 Channel 1 Interview

This was a piece featuring two big Indianapolis area rivals at the 1996 Grand Nationals, Center Grove and Lawrence Central. Center Grove entered the competition as defending GN Champ. This was Lawrence Central's first GN appearance since 1985 and first time making GN Finals. Interesting, the piece did not mention the other Indy area band who also make their first GN Finals appearance this year, Carmel. 

[hewhowaits]

Aug 26, 2024 10:27:37 GMT -6 boahistorybuff said:

1996 Channel 1 Interview

Interesting, the piece did not mention the other Indy area band who also make their first GN Finals appearance this year, Carmel. 

Had they known then what we know now...