The Uniform debate

[fullx2363]

Hello everyone! I just randomly thought of this and wondered your thoughts:

Do you think uniforms/costumes affect scoring? Particularly General Effect? My schools uniforms are orange and my band director will often joke saying “if our uniforms were black we would win/place higher”(note my director is a fantastic teacher so him saying this was not a way to make us feel bad! As I was typing this I understand it sounds a bit wrong but please don’t come for him lol). After hearing him joke around about it I began to wonder if uniform color actually plays a part in scoring/the overall mood. With more bands having different uniforms/costumes now a days, I feel like it could potentially(maybe accidentally?) contribute to GE/higher scores. We have seen bands like Ronald Regan with cool and unique colors that place well, but do their distinct colors end up holding them back? Or are they forced to only do certain types of shows that compliment their uniform?

What are your guys thoughts on this? I know correlation doesn’t equal causation but I was curious. It would sting for bands to have to spend even more money on uniforms(when props, music, techs, and fees are already expensive) but if it can potentially lead to higher scores would it be worth it? In the future, could bands that don’t have the privilege or funds to have different uniforms each year suffer because of the increase of uniform changes? Again, I was just wondering because it was bothering me lol.

[philodemus]

I do often feel bad for bands whose school color is orange... very limited number of complementary color palettes to put your guard and flags in. Now, schools whose actual school color is black and/or white? They've hit the jackpot.

Of course, that's if you wear traditional, school color uniforms... which at least as of 2024, you still can and be successful. Full ensemble costuming is definitely getting more popular, and to me makes a lot of design sense, but you don't have to spend that money in order to find success.

It's all relative, though. A simple printed band top is in the $50 to $75 range, whereas a traditional, fully-constructed uniform can be several hundred. So, how many years do you have to wear the trad uniform to save money?

Considering all the expensive stuff we do in this activity, the full-ensemble costuming trend doesn't strike me as the most egregious. I mean, honestly, just transporting teams of a few hundred people anywhere, much less all around your state and beyond, is the wildest budget item, when you think about it.

Well, that and Wes Cartwright.

[oldbandguy]

Jul 18, 2024 20:58:14 GMT -6 fullx2363 said:

Hello everyone! I just randomly thought of this and wondered your thoughts:

Do you think uniforms/costumes affect scoring? Particularly General Effect? My schools uniforms are orange and my band director will often joke saying “if our uniforms were black we would win/place higher”(note my director is a fantastic teacher so him saying this was not a way to make us feel bad! As I was typing this I understand it sounds a bit wrong but please don’t come for him lol). After hearing him joke around about it I began to wonder if uniform color actually plays a part in scoring/the overall mood. With more bands having different uniforms/costumes now a days, I feel like it could potentially(maybe accidentally?) contribute to GE/higher scores. We have seen bands like Ronald Regan with cool and unique colors that place well, but do their distinct colors end up holding them back? Or are they forced to only do certain types of shows that compliment their uniform?

What are your guys thoughts on this? I know correlation doesn’t equal causation but I was curious. It would sting for bands to have to spend even more money on uniforms(when props, music, techs, and fees are already expensive) but if it can potentially lead to higher scores would it be worth it? In the future, could bands that don’t have the privilege or funds to have different uniforms each year suffer because of the increase of uniform changes? Again, I was just wondering because it was bothering me lol.

I 100% believe uniforms/costumes can be used to enhance GE and Visuals. I feel like it's a major contributing factor to the fact that many, many bands have now gone to different "costumes" to match the show theme rather than march in traditional school uniforms (Carmel notwithstanding).   

[paddy]

While a simple printed band top isn’t expensive the top end of the activity is going with full body custom uniforms that cost more like $200-$250 each.

[hewhowaits]

Jul 19, 2024 7:17:36 GMT -6 paddy said:

While a simple printed band top isn’t expensive the top end of the activity is going with full body custom uniforms that cost more like $200-$250 each.

And with around 200 non-guard band members in those top programs, that's $40-$50K per season. 

[philodemus]

All good points, but most folks are in the middle: top with a little side skirt and/or a shako cover. Maybe $100? Not cheap, obviously, but probably part of the kids yearly dues, not something the boosters fundraise for.

Just a spectator, I'm a fan... makes all kinds of show design sense. I do get the budget concerns, of course.

[fullx2363]

I feel like it's a major contributing factor to the fact that many, many bands have now gone to different "costumes" to match the show theme rather than march in traditional school uniforms (Carmel notwithstanding).   [/quote]


My thoughts exactly! Even with Carmel I feel like the effect of their shows compliments their black and blue uniforms. I thought I was reaching 😩

[paddy]

Jul 19, 2024 8:38:55 GMT -6 philodemus said:

All good points, but most folks are in the middle: top with a little side skirt and/or a shako cover. Maybe $100? Not cheap, obviously, but probably part of the kids yearly dues, not something the boosters fundraise for.

Just a spectator, I'm a fan... makes all kinds of show design sense. I do get the budget concerns, of course.

Sure, what’s another $100 on the band fees. No big deal at all.

[philodemus]

I mean, the cheapest thing would be kazoo band.

I joke, but there’s a philosophical question here: this thing is inherently expensive. Instruments are expensive… but we think it’s cool so we find the cash.

The rest is just quibbling about where the line is.

For me, 100 bucks for a cool costume is not too far.
Paying someone $54,000 for their genius ideas is too far.

The line is somewhere between.

[Allohak]

Jul 19, 2024 15:55:36 GMT -6 philodemus said:

I mean, the cheapest thing would be kazoo band.

I joke, but there’s a philosophical question here: this thing is inherently expensive. Instruments are expensive… but we think it’s cool so we find the cash.

The rest is just quibbling about where the line is.

For me, 100 bucks for a cool costume is not too far.
Paying someone $54,000 for their genius ideas is too far.

The line is somewhere between.

$100 per kid x270 = $27,000
$54,000 ÷270 = $200 per kid

Easier to swallow?

[ohioguy2]

Jul 19, 2024 15:55:36 GMT -6 philodemus said:

I mean, the cheapest thing would be kazoo band.

I joke, but there’s a philosophical question here: this thing is inherently expensive. Instruments are expensive… but we think it’s cool so we find the cash.

The rest is just quibbling about where the line is.

For me, 100 bucks for a cool costume is not too far.
Paying someone $54,000 for their genius ideas is too far.

The line is somewhere between.

“Kazoo band” did happen this past winter if you saw any WGI Winds. It took place about 1:30 into this.

[yayband914]

Jul 19, 2024 17:27:46 GMT -6 Allohak said:

Jul 19, 2024 15:55:36 GMT -6 philodemus said:

I mean, the cheapest thing would be kazoo band.

I joke, but there’s a philosophical question here: this thing is inherently expensive. Instruments are expensive… but we think it’s cool so we find the cash.

The rest is just quibbling about where the line is.

For me, 100 bucks for a cool costume is not too far.
Paying someone $54,000 for their genius ideas is too far.

The line is somewhere between.

$100 per kid x270 = $27,000
$54,000 ÷270 = $200 per kid

Easier to swallow?

This is a fine analogy but let’s remember that the vast, vast majority of bands do not have 270 members.

[Allohak]

Jul 19, 2024 18:41:12 GMT -6 yayband914 said:

Jul 19, 2024 17:27:46 GMT -6 Allohak said:

$100 per kid x270 = $27,000
$54,000 ÷270 = $200 per kid

Easier to swallow?

This is a fine analogy but let’s remember that the vast, vast majority of bands do not have 270 members.

The group that $54k number got pulled from has quite a few more than 270 most years

[philodemus]

That’s why this board is fun: I say, “100 bucks a kid ain’t so bad” and people scoff. Then I say, “200 bucks a kids is too much” and someone else scoffs.

Y’all making my point for me: we all see the line somewhere a bit different.

And that’s fine.

[hdni]

Do the uniforms themselves affect the score? No. Does the coordination between the band costuming and the colors present in the show via guard costuming, props, set, silks, etc affect the score? One thousand percent. If a band has someone designing uniforms each year for a group they are (hopefully) going to be well coordinated with the rest of the colors in the show. Groups buying a show specific uniform each year without carefully and thoughtfully coordinating it with the rest of the materials in their show are just throwing their money away. Unfortunately I think this is pretty common.

In the case of a Carmel, I’m sure their designers are making thoughtful decision about colors in the show with the “traditional” band uniform in mind. And I bet that plays a part into the type of shows they choose to do (or not to do).

Just as a really simple example, if the primary aesthetic effect of a show is the changing of colors present on the field from movement to movement, it will be much less affective if a band has a lot of competing colors in their uniform/costuming vs. simple black and/or white for the colors to pop against.

With all that in mind, I think there is definitely a point of diminishing returns on the cost of yearly custom band uniforms. Pearland wore some beautiful tops last year with multiple different types of fabric that I saw were being sold second hand for $250 per, whereas I know Flower Mound is wearing sublimated tops that are much more affordable. Obviously FloMo is doing great.

[cp823]

Black legs = easier to look clean

[ilikeguard]

I like the look of traditional wool/woolish uniforms the best in most circumstances, but if the money is there to get custom uniforms I’m all for it. There are some really clever ways to design uniforms to emphasize the intended effect. For example, Brownsburg’s uniforms last year were incredibly effective — there was an audible gasp from the audience when they did that little color flip ripple move. But, as others have pointed out, Carmel does just fine without custom uniforms.

I’ve warmed up to printed tops recently, but I’m still not a huge fan because a lot of them end up not fitting properly and can be a source of insecurity for performers. One potential option is purchasing secondhand custom uniforms, but then you’re trying to fit uniforms into a context they weren’t originally designed for, so you’re limited with the other aspects of design (and they’re sized specifically for kids NOT in your band). You have total freedom when you design your own printed tops. I think they’re here to stay. As cheap as they can look sometimes, I think we’re getting to a place where they make a group look more sophisticated and competitive-minded compared to old traditionals.

I really like groups that have interchangeable shirts/drops/plumes with a consistent base. In my opinion, those look the best for the lowest recurring cost.

[ilikeguard]

Also, OP, orange is one of my favorite colors, so I’m sure y’all look great in my eyes. It’s a great color for the field!

[marimba11]

As long as the uniform is something the kids feel confident about wearing when they perform - I don’t really care.

As for your question about effect - I think in rare cases like Reagan 2022 the uniform can aid effect.

But if we’re going to go down the “scoring high bc blah blah blah” I will just point you to Carmel