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Post by hewhowaits on May 6, 2021 18:44:48 GMT -6
Hoosiers because you say only one year and Texans because you dare consider it even remotely possible? Yep. Pre Covid hypothetical scenario. 😀 The coronavirus has affected us all in ways we never imagined, but at least it couldn't change the Texas vs. Indiana debate! Marching Band FTW!
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Post by srv1084 on May 6, 2021 20:25:44 GMT -6
Since this thread is about historical scores, there's one oddity that I've always wondered about. In 1989, Kiski and North Hardin tied in finals with a 90.35, but only after North Hardin was assessed a 0.3 penalty. North Hardin had the higher GE score, but is listed as 5th with Kiski in 4th. Any idea why that's the case?
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Post by hewhowaits on May 6, 2021 20:29:34 GMT -6
Since this thread is about historical scores, there's one oddity that I've always wondered about. In 1989, Kiski and North Hardin tied in finals with a 90.35, but only after North Hardin was assessed a 0.3 penalty. North Hardin had the higher GE score, but is listed as 5th with Kiski in 4th. Any idea why that's the case? Perhaps the tiebreaker criteria were different at that time.
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Post by Allohak on May 6, 2021 20:33:49 GMT -6
Since this thread is about historical scores, there's one oddity that I've always wondered about. In 1989, Kiski and North Hardin tied in finals with a 90.35, but only after North Hardin was assessed a 0.3 penalty. North Hardin had the higher GE score, but is listed as 5th with Kiski in 4th. Any idea why that's the case? Perhaps the tiebreaker criteria were different at that time. My assumption would be that any band who had a penalty assessed were docked placement in the event of a tie with another band who did not have a penalty assessed as part of the tiebreaking criteria. Penalties are A LOT less common anymore, so that rule became obsolete?
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Post by supersound on May 6, 2021 20:39:55 GMT -6
I think Avon beats a lot of Texan bands and potentially places top 3 at SA most recent years barring 2018, 2014, 2012 and of course 2017 where they actually went and were kept out of top 3.
We know Avon easily took on some of the best Texas had to offer in the late 2000’s leading into the 2010’s with Avon being one of the only barriers to L.D. Bell taking another championship.
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Post by Allohak on May 6, 2021 21:05:55 GMT -6
I think Avon beats a lot of Texan bands and potentially places top 3 at SA most recent years barring 2018, 2014, 2012 and of course 2017 where they actually went and were kept out of top 3. We know Avon easily took on some of the best Texas had to offer in the late 2000’s leading into the 2010’s with Avon being one of the only barriers to L.D. Bell taking another championship. I'd tend to agree. Avon went to SA in '17 with one of their weakest hornlines and designs in recent memory and still placed 4th
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on May 6, 2021 21:49:59 GMT -6
I’m going to push back just a bit but before I do I agree almost 💯 on your statements. In a BOA metric adjudication maybe but the hypothetical was UIL State competition (namely 2010). Referencing the BOA Adjudication Handbook. The phraseology and Concepts like "constantly display the highest level of control and concept of musicality," Every student whether a intermediate though semi- professional maintains a level of control. It’s subjective. A BOA judge can award up to 200 points in the ME category, which counts for 20 percent of the band's final "score." Of those 200, a large portion come from the trait (scoring subcategory) of musicality, which includes expression, full range of dynamics, phrasing, and style/idiomatic interpretation. No mention of playing in tune or high level of execution. Music (IND and Ensemble) is judged by subjective expressionist modes and not by execution. Execution is a UIL fundamental! I do believe Avon 2000-10’s would final in most UIL State competitions but I don’t see them placing top 3! They may be well rounded under the BOA banner but it’s been very clear that they do not execute musically like most Elites in Texas. This has been more obvious and evident in the 2010’s imo.
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Post by supersound on May 6, 2021 22:13:36 GMT -6
I’m going to push back just a bit but before I do I agree almost 💯 on your statements. In a BOA metric adjudication maybe but the hypothetical was UIL State competition (namely 2010). Referencing the BOA Adjudication Handbook. The phraseology and Concepts like "constantly display the highest level of control and concept of musicality," Every student whether a intermediate though semi- professional maintains a level of control. It’s subjective. A BOA judge can award up to 200 points in the ME category, which counts for 20 percent of the band's final "score." Of those 200, a large portion come from the trait (scoring subcategory) of musicality, which includes expression, full range of dynamics, phrasing, and style/idiomatic interpretation. No mention of playing in tune or high level of execution. Music (IND and Ensemble) is judged by subjective expressionist modes and not by execution. Execution is a UIL fundamental! I do believe Avon 2000-10’s would final in most UIL State competitions but I don’t see them placing top 3! They may be well rounded under the BOA banner but it’s been very clear that they do not execute musically like most Elites in Texas. This has been more obvious and evident in the 2010’s imo. I’m not sure where you’re getting that Avon doesn’t execute music well like Texan bands do, coming from a Texan. Avon consistently performs music extremely well on a fundamental level. They’ve had a few off years in their musicality but those missteps where still enough to place above great competition. I don’t really think they’d struggle to place top three at the SMBC. I was mostly referring to SA SR in my comment though.
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Post by boahistorybuff on May 6, 2021 22:53:28 GMT -6
I was away for a couple of days and look at all the historical discussion. WOW
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Post by boahistorybuff on May 6, 2021 23:07:53 GMT -6
First off, I want to address the 1989 Kiski vs North Hardin question.
During the 1989 Grand National Finals Award Ceremony (yes I was there). Chuck read the scores as North Hardin in 4th place with a 90.65 and Kiski in 5th place with a 90.35. I do not know if he accidentally read the pre penalty score or what. In the 1990 Grand Nationals program book, in the section which listed the previous years finalist bands with their picture, placement and score, North Hardin was listed as 4th place with a score of 90.35 (factoring in the .3 point penalty) and Kiski was listed as 5th place also with a score of 90.35. The way the tie break for placement worked back then is the same as today. The band with the higher pre penalty score or highest general effect score got the higher placement. That means that North Hardin placed 4th and Kiski placed 5th. So the placement is incorrect on the recap sheet.
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Post by boahistorybuff on May 6, 2021 23:14:36 GMT -6
I think our member 360s probably meant to ask if anyone has the list of top scores, which I see some were posted. I doubt they meant to have one us do the work for them, probably assumed someone already had the list. But yes, all BOA scores from 1990 onward are on the Hornrank site under results. The BOA site has scores going back to 1985. I have posted on the history thread Results with scores for Grand Nationals going back to 1977 with some of the scores for 1976.
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Post by boahistorybuff on May 6, 2021 23:24:56 GMT -6
To be honest, I don't get too focused on scores. Scores don't always tell the whole story. Sometimes you have a stingy judging panel and other times you may have one that is a little more generous. I will say that there is a lot more consistency in scoring over the past decade in comparison to the early years. In the 1970s and early 1980s, judging was extremely stringent. Since 1984, scores have trended upward as the judging evolved to awarding achievement more than deducting points. But still, a score of say 95 points at Grand Nationals in 2019 was from a much much stronger performance as say a score of 95 points in 1990; the top level bands are just much stronger these days then they were 20, 30, 40 years ago. Aside from obvious stylistic differences, if Vandegrift gave the performance they gave at the 2019 Grand Nationals in 1990, the judges would have either had to give them a perfect 100 or give them a score over 100. It just would have been unheard of to have a high school band play like that back then.
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Post by boahistorybuff on May 6, 2021 23:26:08 GMT -6
As for the debate between an Indiana power like Avon and the musical prowess of Texas bands, I am not touching that one.
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Post by LeanderMomma on May 7, 2021 7:40:27 GMT -6
As for the debate between an Indiana power like Avon and the musical prowess of Texas bands, I am not touching that one. smart man. It’s like the 2019 Reagan/Vandy debate about which one would have won if Reagan had also gone to GN. There’s just no tellin!
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Post by LeanderMomma on May 7, 2021 7:56:24 GMT -6
I think our member 360s probably meant to ask if anyone has the list of top scores, which I see some were posted. I doubt they meant to have one us do the work for them, probably assumed someone already had the list. But yes, all BOA scores from 1990 onward are on the Hornrank site under results. The BOA site has scores going back to 1985. I have posted on the history thread Results with scores for Grand Nationals going back to 1977 with some of the scores for 1976. I definitely feel bad about that. I was feeling off on Wednesday and 360s post rubbed me the wrong way so I’m sure I was way too hard on them. 😔
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on May 7, 2021 9:27:49 GMT -6
I’m going to push back just a bit but before I do I agree almost 💯 on your statements. In a BOA metric adjudication maybe but the hypothetical was UIL State competition (namely 2010). Referencing the BOA Adjudication Handbook. The phraseology and Concepts like "constantly display the highest level of control and concept of musicality," Every student whether a intermediate though semi- professional maintains a level of control. It’s subjective. A BOA judge can award up to 200 points in the ME category, which counts for 20 percent of the band's final "score." Of those 200, a large portion come from the trait (scoring subcategory) of musicality, which includes expression, full range of dynamics, phrasing, and style/idiomatic interpretation. No mention of playing in tune or high level of execution. Music (IND and Ensemble) is judged by subjective expressionist modes and not by execution. Execution is a UIL fundamental! I do believe Avon 2000-10’s would final in most UIL State competitions but I don’t see them placing top 3! They may be well rounded under the BOA banner but it’s been very clear that they do not execute musically like most Elites in Texas. This has been more obvious and evident in the 2010’s imo. I don’t really think they’d struggle to place top three at the SMBC. I respectfully disagree but don’t let this distract you from the the fact that in 1966, Al Bundy scored four touchdowns in a single game while playing for the Polk High School Panthers in the 1966 city championship game versus Andrew Johnson High School, including the game-winning touchdown in the final seconds against his old nemesis, Bubba "Spare Tire" Dixon! 😜
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Post by Subito Fortissimo on May 7, 2021 20:17:57 GMT -6
To be honest, I don't get too focused on scores. Scores don't always tell the whole story. Sometimes you have a stingy judging panel and other times you may have one that is a little more generous. I will say that there is a lot more consistency in scoring over the past decade in comparison to the early years. In the 1970s and early 1980s, judging was extremely stringent. Since 1984, scores have trended upward as the judging evolved to awarding achievement more than deducting points. But still, a score of say 95 points at Grand Nationals in 2019 was from a much much stronger performance as say a score of 95 points in 1990; the top level bands are just much stronger these days then they were 20, 30, 40 years ago. Aside from obvious stylistic differences, if Vandegrift gave the performance they gave at the 2019 Grand Nationals in 1990, the judges would have either had to give them a perfect 100 or give them a score over 100. It just would have been unheard of to have a high school band play like that back then. It's really quite incredible how much the standard of excellence in execution has been raised across the activity. If you go back to the late 90's and early 2000's and watch some of the bands that were at the bottom end of semi-finals it is nowhere near the level of what we see from bands placing similarly today. Nothing against those bands back then as they were great in their own right, and of course show design has changed a lot. But from a pure music and visual execution standpoint those bands probably wouldn't even be in the top 50 at Grand Nationals now, and likewise bands that now finish in the 20th-30th range execute as well or better than most finalists did then.
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Post by boahistorybuff on May 7, 2021 21:31:26 GMT -6
To be honest, I don't get too focused on scores. Scores don't always tell the whole story. Sometimes you have a stingy judging panel and other times you may have one that is a little more generous. I will say that there is a lot more consistency in scoring over the past decade in comparison to the early years. In the 1970s and early 1980s, judging was extremely stringent. Since 1984, scores have trended upward as the judging evolved to awarding achievement more than deducting points. But still, a score of say 95 points at Grand Nationals in 2019 was from a much much stronger performance as say a score of 95 points in 1990; the top level bands are just much stronger these days then they were 20, 30, 40 years ago. Aside from obvious stylistic differences, if Vandegrift gave the performance they gave at the 2019 Grand Nationals in 1990, the judges would have either had to give them a perfect 100 or give them a score over 100. It just would have been unheard of to have a high school band play like that back then. It's really quite incredible how much the standard of excellence in execution has been raised across the activity. If you go back to the late 90's and early 2000's and watch some of the bands that were at the bottom end of semi-finals it is nowhere near the level of what we see from bands placing similarly today. Nothing against those bands back then as they were great in their own right, and of course show design has changed a lot. But from a pure music and visual execution standpoint those bands probably wouldn't even be in the top 50 at Grand Nationals now, and likewise bands that now finish in the 20th-30th range execute as well or better than most finalists did then. Yes, decades of competition and many more bands in the activity has really raised the bar. When I watched the 2019 Grand National Finals I remember thinking that I would have never imagined high school bands could be so good. In my senior year way back in 1991 my band made Grand National finals with a performance that would not even make Semi Finals today. It is just incredible how the activity has grown with so many awesome bands. It is really what has kept me interested in following the activity for so long.
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Post by paddy on May 9, 2021 14:20:19 GMT -6
While it is a hypothetical (and hypotheticals are easily setup to prove a point) I think the Avon in UIL discussion is a bit silly.
Basically what is being said is that Avon who builds their show to compete in ISSMA and BOA would not fare well in UIL. My response would be of course they wouldn’t because they don’t build their show for the UIL metrics.
If the staff and kids at Avon wanted to compete in UIL and built their show for those sheets they would be just fine. Their is nothing magical about Texas bands. They aren’t inherently more musically talented than kids in Indiana. Frankly, given the pure demographic advantages, Texas should naturally be better at lots of things. The more “chances” you have at something the odds are better that you get a good result. It is the reason we split up BOA, ISSMA, UIL, etc by population size.
Texas and UIL get killer music because that is what they judge on. This is just like any situation out there: You get what you measure and evaluate.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on May 9, 2021 15:50:11 GMT -6
While it is a hypothetical (and hypotheticals are easily setup to prove a point) I think the Avon in UIL discussion is a bit silly. Basically what is being said is that Avon who builds their show to compete in ISSMA and BOA would not fare well in UIL. My response would be of course they wouldn’t because they don’t build their show for the UIL metrics. If the staff and kids at Avon wanted to compete in UIL and built their show for those sheets they would be just fine. Their is nothing magical about Texas bands. They aren’t inherently more musically talented than kids in Indiana. Frankly, given the pure demographic advantages, Texas should naturally be better at lots of things. The more “chances” you have at something the odds are better that you get a good result. It is the reason we split up BOA, ISSMA, UIL, etc by population size. Texas and UIL get killer music because that is what they judge on. This is just like any situation out there: You get what you measure and evaluate. It’s mother’s days so I’ll keep it short 🤣 The scenario was meant to be silly and hypothetical. My whole point was that when BOA speaks and adjudicates ME it’s in expressionistic terms and not execution. I guess WE agree. So when musicianship is rated or discussed on this forum we are using the same language but mean two completely different things (Texas and Indiana). I know you don’t believe that 2019 Avon’s brass and horn section could handle the music book of say Vista Ridge,Marcus, Leander, Hebron 2019? Sadly, there is a reason why Avon’s brass book difficulty has been watered down since the 2000’s. I believe it a by product of competing in a overly visual landscape. Example, 2019 brass book hardly had any “8th notes” All the 16th notes were done by the woodwinds and sax mids (horns just blended in) and anything with any movement was predominantly guitar and those fantastic woodwind soloist. I’ll give a comparable: It’s like saying TCGC is producing the depth of field, execution, athleticism in terms difficulty as say almost all the open class guards in Indiana. Let’s not even talk about Avon’s guards! Yes we have wonderful guards but Indiana is just on another level at present time The intonation and execution level to pull difficulty is just not there for the Avon Brass to-date and It’s been made more obvious in the 2010’s. Anyone with an unbiased and honest examination of this claim know this to be true. And no, I can’t buy the because you have money and are bigger that mean better all on it’s owns. It’s also a matter of program culture and individual hard work. Yes, I do believe the musicianship levels in Texas are magical and I also believe Avon’s guards are magical to watch. Heck, I thought what Broken Arrow produced on the field most of 2010’s was magical. Not sure where you were going with that comment BTW
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Post by Allohak on May 9, 2021 17:32:57 GMT -6
It’s mother’s days so I’ll keep it short 🤣 The scenario was meant to be silly and hypothetical. My whole point was that when BOA speaks and adjudicates ME it’s in expressionistic terms and not execution. I guess WE agree. So when musicianship is rated or discussed on this forum we are using the same language but mean two completely different things (Texas and Indiana). I know you don’t believe that 2019 Avon’s brass and horn section could handle the music book of say Vista Ridge,Marcus, Leander, Hebron 2019? Sadly, there is a reason why Avon’s brass book difficulty has been watered down since the 2000’s. I believe it a by product of competing in a overly visual landscape. Example, 2019 brass book hardly had any “8th notes” All the 16th notes were done by the woodwinds and sax mids (horns just blended in) and anything with any movement was predominantly guitar and those fantastic woodwind soloist. I’ll give a comparable: It’s like saying TCGC is producing the depth of field, execution, athleticism in terms difficulty as say almost all the open class guards in Indiana. Let’s not even talk about Avon’s guards! Yes we have wonderful guards but Indiana is just on another level at present time The intonation and execution level to pull difficulty is just not there for the Avon Brass to-date and It’s been made more obvious in the 2010’s. Anyone with an unbiased and honest examination of this claim know this to be true. And no, I can’t buy the because you have money and are bigger that mean better all on it’s owns. It’s also a matter of program culture and individual hard work. Yes, I do believe the musicianship levels in Texas are magical and I also believe Avon’s guards are magical to watch. Heck, I thought what Broken Arrow produced on the field most of 2010’s was magical. Not sure where you were going with that comment BTW While I don't claim to be in the Avon-brass-has-good-tone-quality camp... Your assessment of how Music Performance Ensemble is judged differently by circuits is not entirely accurate. What you are claiming BOA uses to judge MPE is just part of what that sheet adjudicates. Expression and musicality are part of what an MPE judge is looking (or, rather, listening) for. They also are charged with assessing the accuracy, difficulty, interpretation, and implementation of the ensemble and repertoire. So saying UIL rewards execution while BOA only cares about expression is...not a fair thing to say - and makes it appear that you think non-UIL bands inherently are achieving at a lower level than UIL bands.
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Post by hewhowaits on May 9, 2021 18:59:45 GMT -6
I think if you give an honest reading of what I said then you will see that it’s not a non-UIL band vs a UIL band thing. I referenced the execution levels of the color guards of Indiana and mentioned my amazement with 2010’s Broken Arrow. Yes, I do think that Avon does not have the tonal brass quality and executional horsepower of its counterparts ( Tarpon, BA and all the Texas Elites). Their shows are mostly centered around those amazing guards and not their once brass prowess of the 2000’s. It’s been a while since I’ve read the BOA adjudication Handbook so I’ll look for it and take another look. Maybe I missed something in terms of adjudication. Thanks By contrast, many outside of Texas are less than impressed with what we hear from the woodwind section in many Texas bands. Or should I say, what we DON'T hear from the woodwind section because the sheer volume of the brass ensemble overwhelms the sound of the woodwinds far too often. Unfortunately, often the "Texas sound" is massive brass volume with little aural evidence of the presence of woodwind instruments. Having heard the nuances of tonal balance in performances by various Texas concert bands, I often wish the concept of "Texas loud" wasn't a thing in the marching band world. When a Texas ensemble has exquisite balance between the brass and woodwinds, it is a wonder to behold (e.g. Vandegrift 2019 or LD Bell 2007).
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Post by paddy on May 9, 2021 19:07:48 GMT -6
I’m saying that any program builds their show to succeed with the rubric in which they compete.
(And that is how you actually keep it short 😎)
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on May 9, 2021 19:19:50 GMT -6
I think if you give an honest reading of what I said then you will see that it’s not a non-UIL band vs a UIL band thing. I referenced the execution levels of the color guards of Indiana and mentioned my amazement with 2010’s Broken Arrow. Yes, I do think that Avon does not have the tonal brass quality and executional horsepower of its counterparts ( Tarpon, BA and all the Texas Elites). Their shows are mostly centered around those amazing guards and not their once brass prowess of the 2000’s. It’s been a while since I’ve read the BOA adjudication Handbook so I’ll look for it and take another look. Maybe I missed something in terms of adjudication. Thanks By contrast, many outside of Texas are less than impressed with what we hear from the woodwind section in many Texas bands. Or should I say, what we DON'T hear from the woodwind section because the sheer volume of the brass ensemble overwhelms the sound of the woodwinds far too often. Unfortunately, often the "Texas sound" is massive brass volume with little aural evidence of the presence of woodwind instruments. Having heard the nuances of tonal balance in performances by various Texas concert bands, I often wish the concept of "Texas loud" wasn't a thing in the marching band world. When a Texas ensemble has exquisite balance between the brass and woodwinds, it is a wonder to behold (e.g. Vandegrift 2019 or LD Bell 2007). Chris I actually do agree with you on a basic level. There are so many Texas bands that push way to hard on that brass and it nearly hurts the ears. I’m talking ear bleeding! Lol. I do not feel that way about the Texas Elites. It’s a controlled source and in tune that is why it carries further and seems louder. They produce more like an open class DCi. Woodwinds perfectly tuned and balanced can’t produce that decibel level but together these produce a outdoor sound like no other. That is the Texas sound. A comment like yours would be unheard of during the power days of Carmel’s Sausedo era! Or even Avon 2000’s brass outputs. I’ve only seen these type comments on a more recent level and mostly since Texas surpassed Indiana on brass prowess and cracked the UIL/BOA visual code. It’s a bit unfair imo. PS. I enjoy Concert season in Texas over marching season to be honest. Wait did you not hear that wonderful woodwind work form Hebron 2019?
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Post by LeanderMomma on May 9, 2021 20:53:43 GMT -6
Maybe I’m just weary in general but I get tired of these Texas vs everyone else or BOA vs UIL arguments. I don’t understand why it matters. Texas does really well at GN when they go, and the other top bands in the country do well at BOA San Antonio when they come down. I truly don’t understand why it matters if some people think one group has better brass or woodwinds or colorguards or marching techniques or the way they hold their drumsticks or how funny their hats look or how much they spent on their dang trailer. It’s band. It’s awesome. It frankly doesn’t matter a hill of beans if it’s Texas or Indiana or Hackensack New Jersey.
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Post by statechamp1239 on May 9, 2021 22:01:46 GMT -6
It frankly doesn’t matter a hill of beans if it’s Texas or Indiana or Hackensack New Jersey. Thank you LeanderMomma for including us Northeasterners. We're finally seen.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on May 9, 2021 22:44:03 GMT -6
🏳️
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Post by boahistorybuff on May 10, 2021 3:26:26 GMT -6
I do love reading the Texas vs Indiana rivalry. Always good times. Seems that in the BOA world this rivalry first showed itself in 1995 when Center Grove beat Westfield for the Grand National title. Two awesome shows that were very different stylistically. Then in 2002 Carmel went down to San Antonio and beat LD Bell for the regional title. I think Texas revoked Carmel's passport because they have not been back to Texas since. But the very next year, 2003, Texas got its revenge and went one and two at Grand Nationals (Westfield and Ronald Reagan) leaving Carmel in 3rd. The rivalry has been fairly heated ever since. I for one love seeing various style differences play out in BOA, especially Grand Nationals. I enjoy those bands that blast us with big powerful brass moments just as much as those that amaze us with fierce woodwind features. Love the bands that do crazy difficult visual moves as well as those that have less visual difficulty but are so clean. It is good for us fans to have this kind of mix. Regional rivalries are not new to MBA/BOA. In the 1970s it was Midwest vs California. In the 1980s it was East Coast vs Midwest and North vs South. In the 1990s it was usually Midwest vs South or Midwest vs Texas and the last couple decades it has been Texas vs Indiana.
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Post by hewhowaits on May 10, 2021 5:36:31 GMT -6
When a Texas ensemble has exquisite balance between the brass and woodwinds, it is a wonder to behold (e.g. Vandegrift 2019 or LD Bell 2007). Wait did you not hear that wonderful woodwind work form Hebron 2019? Agreed. Hebron 2019 is another example of the balance. Vandy and LDB happened to be examples that won the championship.
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Post by hewhowaits on May 10, 2021 5:37:27 GMT -6
Maybe I’m just weary in general but I get tired of these Texas vs everyone else or BOA vs UIL arguments. I don’t understand why it matters. Texas does really well at GN when they go, and the other top bands in the country do well at BOA San Antonio when they come down. I truly don’t understand why it matters if some people think one group has better brass or woodwinds or colorguards or marching techniques or the way they hold their drumsticks or how funny their hats look or how much they spent on their dang trailer. It’s band. It’s awesome. It frankly doesn’t matter a hill of beans if it’s Texas or Indiana or Hackensack New Jersey. You have obviously never been to Hackensack.
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