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Post by Marching Observer on Sept 22, 2021 13:58:28 GMT -6
Yes that is exactly right. I know a lot of groups use it kinda as a fundraiser too since band get paid and even more based off placement. Most groups then stop afterwards. As an example, there were 33 that went to State Fair Band Day and only one (Connersville) had continued on into the fall.
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madisonscoutsop
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Madison scouts in '19 '20 '21 Former Visual Caption Head-Huntington North Marching Band 2018-2022
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Post by madisonscoutsop on Sept 22, 2021 14:24:09 GMT -6
Scholastic class isn't the problem, it's a symptom. The demographic, size, and wealth disparity is the problem. What 5 figure budget band at the bottom of the enrollment counts wants to continually go up against 6-7 figure budget bands from schools 2-3 times the size that can field 100-150 more people? Certain areas of the state will never be able to drum up the kind of corporate sponsorships or attract and pay for the kind of staff that the top bands can. Then as time goes on and it's been longer and longer since a band's had successes it can point to, it's that much harder to attract funding, staff, and support, and it snowballs. There will be some Cinderella/turn around stories here and there, but I see this problem only getting worse in the next 10 years. I don't know what the answer is, but I'd be more afraid that killing off scholastic entirely would lead to completely killing off more marching programs over time. ISSMA's move to limit a band's time in Scholastic was a good and necessary one, but they're just going to have bands cycling back to it every few years if they don't figure out a better way to handle the disparity issues that keep pushing bands to Scholastic in the first place. A lot of band Directors want first place trophies, and since they don't have a competitive program capable of being high caliber, in order to compete with the Greenwoods, Jasper's, the Carmel's, the Avon's. So these band Directors bring there band to scholastic in order to "win" or beat bands because they can never beat the bands in open class, I think its the Directors who are the problem tbh, thats my 2 cents though. {Don' attack me lol}
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Post by OldSchoolTrumpet on Sept 22, 2021 14:49:28 GMT -6
Scholastic class isn't the problem, it's a symptom. The demographic, size, and wealth disparity is the problem. What 5 figure budget band at the bottom of the enrollment counts wants to continually go up against 6-7 figure budget bands from schools 2-3 times the size that can field 100-150 more people? Certain areas of the state will never be able to drum up the kind of corporate sponsorships or attract and pay for the kind of staff that the top bands can. Then as time goes on and it's been longer and longer since a band's had successes it can point to, it's that much harder to attract funding, staff, and support, and it snowballs. There will be some Cinderella/turn around stories here and there, but I see this problem only getting worse in the next 10 years. I don't know what the answer is, but I'd be more afraid that killing off scholastic entirely would lead to completely killing off more marching programs over time. ISSMA's move to limit a band's time in Scholastic was a good and necessary one, but they're just going to have bands cycling back to it every few years if they don't figure out a better way to handle the disparity issues that keep pushing bands to Scholastic in the first place. A lot of band Directors want first place trophies, and since they don't have a competitive program capable of being high caliber, in order to compete with the Greenwoods, Jasper's, the Carmel's, the Avon's. So these band Directors bring there band to scholastic in order to "win" or beat bands because they can never beat the bands in open class, I think its the Directors who are the problem tbh, thats my 2 cents though. {Don' attack me lol} I think that might be a touch harsh, at least for most of these groups. Most of them aren't winning in Scholastic either. They're simply playing on what they perceive as a playing field that represents a more equal level of competition. You can't really blame them. But still, the existence of the little pond makes it unlikely they'll ever swim in the big pond.
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madisonscoutsop
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Madison scouts in '19 '20 '21 Former Visual Caption Head-Huntington North Marching Band 2018-2022
Posts: 29
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Post by madisonscoutsop on Sept 22, 2021 14:55:26 GMT -6
A lot of band Directors want first place trophies, and since they don't have a competitive program capable of being high caliber, in order to compete with the Greenwoods, Jasper's, the Carmel's, the Avon's. So these band Directors bring there band to scholastic in order to "win" or beat bands because they can never beat the bands in open class, I think its the Directors who are the problem tbh, thats my 2 cents though. {Don' attack me lol} I think that might be a touch harsh, at least for most of these groups. Most of them aren't winning in Scholastic either. They're simply playing on what they perceive as a playing field that represents a more equal level of competition. You can't really blame them. But still, the existence of the little pond makes it unlikely they'll ever swim in the big pond. I don't think its to harsh.. I know some directors that said they would rather take there big band to compete against small bands instead of competing with bands that are in there open class size
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Post by paddy on Sept 22, 2021 16:07:51 GMT -6
I think that might be a touch harsh, at least for most of these groups. Most of them aren't winning in Scholastic either. They're simply playing on what they perceive as a playing field that represents a more equal level of competition. You can't really blame them. But still, the existence of the little pond makes it unlikely they'll ever swim in the big pond. I don't think its to harsh.. I know some directors that said they would rather take there big band to compete against small bands instead of competing with bands that are in there open class size There is a size cap on Scholastic bands of 110 for A class which is primarily Open A and B sized schools. There aren’t many “big bands” hanging out in scholastic.
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Post by kvgdc on Sept 22, 2021 17:41:07 GMT -6
Oh it wasn't a recommendation as much as it was a reflection. I would agree entirely that the old style regionals from when I marched were a bad format. You'd have all sorts of stress outs where the slightest mistake or penalty would toss you from finals. Going from District where judging was only for the comments on what a single panel thought and you weren't head to head with the competition you'd need to face to make State to...."all in for regionals...plus here's a few bands we're shuffling around for "balance" that you and your judging panels have not seen yet" led to way too much volatility in the scoring and ordinals. The scholastic class thing strikes me as somewhat odd too. I get the whole "we want this to be an educational experience more than a competitive one" vibe that a lot of programs needed to shift toward. But that's now how some are using it it seems and ... to make separate class for that mindset seems somewhat weird to me on some level. There is nothing wrong with finishing 8th in a show rather than "3rd in scholastic class" if you've instilled a mindset of "we're a scholastic program and about the experience and entertainment, not so much the scoring and standings." But I do understand that in the hyper competitive arena of ISSMA of my time (late 80s) getting something that said "8th" would have been a bitter pill to swallow because we were taught that ordinals and scoring was the primary target and purpose for marching for the most part. The thing is, it's hard to blame the directors here. In an ideal world we'd like to see them toil away and try to elevate these struggling programs, but in their world they're just trying to keep kids in the band and hold onto their jobs. That's likely a lot easier to do by delivering a "State Finals" appearance in Scholastic Class every year, as opposed to not even getting out of Regionals. The parents are happy, at least from what I see on my Facebook feed. ("State Finals again! Whooo Hooo!") As a fan and alumini-parent of a large program it feels wrong for me to trash this system, since obviously it's easy for me to look down and preach. (Though my own alma mater has been hiding out in scholastic for a few years, so there's that.) But I do agree with Josh that it hampers growth of the activity. It's not encouraging groups to improve. It's merely creating more winners without improvement. I would have no idea how ISSMA views it, and I doubt they could put the toothpaste back in the tube anyway. Fair enough. People I talk to that I marched with who have kids that went through Northrop band say. "It just isn't the same all around. The school district changed how funding works, the ways to get kids motivated are completely different than our time, what kids want out of band is different." And they're pretty right on about that. Programs will drop down to Scholastic for real reasons. The programs don't always get the support and resources they need to maintain the legacy they had and the interim can be sort of demoralizing for kids. I've seen some of the reactions of current marches at my alma mater to videos of back when I marched and they're like "whoa, this band used to be BIG." And there's a wistfulness in their parents' eyes and a bit of of that insecurity about not living up to the tradition sort of settles on the kid. That shouldn't happen. Having a tiered system sort of allows for more sense of achievement but yeah, it changes the landscape of the activity too.
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madisonscoutsop
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Madison scouts in '19 '20 '21 Former Visual Caption Head-Huntington North Marching Band 2018-2022
Posts: 29
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Post by madisonscoutsop on Sept 22, 2021 17:43:04 GMT -6
I don't think its to harsh.. I know some directors that said they would rather take there big band to compete against small bands instead of competing with bands that are in there open class size There is a size cap on Scholastic bands of 110 for A class which is primarily Open A and B sized schools. There aren’t many “big bands” hanging out in scholastic. I beg to differ, as an instructor, I see more things behind the scenes there are plenty of big bands in scholastic. And Like I said i know Directors who said that they would rather take there big band to scholastic to compete with small bands rather than going to open class. I would know this because one of my old directors said this when he went to a bigger school
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Post by paddy on Sept 22, 2021 18:57:10 GMT -6
There is a size cap on Scholastic bands of 110 for A class which is primarily Open A and B sized schools. There aren’t many “big bands” hanging out in scholastic. I beg to differ, as an instructor, I see more things behind the scenes there are plenty of big bands in scholastic. And Like I said i know Directors who said that they would rather take there big band to scholastic to compete with small bands rather than going to open class. I would know this because one of my old directors said this when he went to a bigger school If you are intimating that directors make cuts to get under the number then that is an issue.
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madisonscoutsop
Full Member
Madison scouts in '19 '20 '21 Former Visual Caption Head-Huntington North Marching Band 2018-2022
Posts: 29
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Post by madisonscoutsop on Sept 22, 2021 20:26:24 GMT -6
I beg to differ, as an instructor, I see more things behind the scenes there are plenty of big bands in scholastic. And Like I said i know Directors who said that they would rather take there big band to scholastic to compete with small bands rather than going to open class. I would know this because one of my old directors said this when he went to a bigger school If you are intimating that directors make cuts to get under the number then that is an issue. yeah some band directors are making cuts just to be in scholastic, which really ruins the whole point of scholastic
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