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Post by principalagent on Oct 3, 2021 21:57:27 GMT -6
Moderator Note: This post was in response to a post that has since been deleted by the OP.
I think people are skeptical because even Harrison has taken a turn down. Harrison used to be a comfortable GN finalist capable of surviving Texas waves and missed out by a decent amount in 2019. Walton just won their first regional, and I don't intend to take that away from them. However, that regional had one of the weakest fields so far this season. And especially with numerous Texas bands traveling every year now--UIL State year or not--Walton needs to make a gargantuan jump up to get close to finals.
Georgia isn't a lost cause, but it has definitely declined in the last decade, and especially the last two. Unfortunately, that is driven by Cobb County itself, and bands like Mill Creek haven't fully picked up the slack yet.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Oct 4, 2021 4:07:54 GMT -6
So I don't exactly know the economic shifts with respect to school funding in Cobb County, Georgia. I do know that other regions of the country that once had several top level bands have gone through this; socioeconomic factors are sometimes at play and in some instances it is lack of statewide support for music education. Going back into the 1970s and 1980s, there were some regions of the country that produced multiple top level marching band programs that have since seen this shift. Probably the most dramatic has occurred in the Syracuse, NY metro region and the Flint-Saginaw, MI region. Perhaps not so dramatic, but two other metro regions are Chicago, IL and San Jose, CA. There are also dozens of rural small school programs that simply can not compete at the level with which they did 40 to 50 years ago.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe all of the regional champion bands and Grand National finalist bands from Georgia (going all the way back to the late 1970s) have been located in Cobb County.
Regional Champions:
South Cobb
Sprayberry
Alan C Pope
Lassiter
Kennesaw Mountain
Harrison
Carleton J Kell
Walton
Grand National Finalists:
Sprayberry
South Cobb
Lassiter
Kennesaw Mountain
Harrison
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Post by marimba11 on Oct 5, 2021 9:46:38 GMT -6
I think there is still hope for Harrison. They are just over the mark for AAAA now. I really don’t think it was money that was at fault for bands like Kennesaw Mountain, Lassiter ect. I think it was staff movement, student retention, and show design inconsistencies. My opinion anyway.
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Post by hostrauser on Oct 5, 2021 19:16:13 GMT -6
I think there is still hope for Harrison. They are just over the mark for AAAA now. I really don’t think it was money that was at fault for bands like Kennesaw Mountain, Lassiter ect. I think it was staff movement, student retention, and show design inconsistencies. My opinion anyway. Lassiter was an ugly situation. No one was going to fill Alfred Watkins' shoes: ANYBODY that came in after him was going to be seen as a "step down" whether that was actually true or not. So his replacement was doomed for a rough ride from the start. That's not unique to Lassiter: many bands and many band directors have struggled moving on from a "band god." That said, Lassiter is a terrible lesson in what happens when the band boosters get too much power. I don't know if Ginny Markham was the right choice to keep Lassiter at its lofty heights. I do know that the band parents at Lassiter behaved execrably towards her and refused to work with her or give her much of a chance at all. |
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Post by Shroom on Oct 5, 2021 20:29:48 GMT -6
I think there is still hope for Harrison. They are just over the mark for AAAA now. I really don’t think it was money that was at fault for bands like Kennesaw Mountain, Lassiter ect. I think it was staff movement, student retention, and show design inconsistencies. My opinion anyway. Lassiter was an ugly situation. No one was going to fill Alfred Watkins' shoes: ANYBODY that came in after him was going to be seen as a "step down" whether that was actually true or not. So his replacement was doomed for a rough ride from the start. That's not unique to Lassiter: many bands and many band directors have struggled moving on from a "band god." That said, Lassiter is a terrible lesson in what happens when the band boosters get too much power. I don't know if Ginny Markham was the right choice to keep Lassiter at its lofty heights. I do know that the band parents at Lassiter behaved execrably towards her and refused to work with her or give her much of a chance at all. What specifically happened to Lassiter? Was it just continuous director changes, financial issues or a combination of things? BOA history is hard to pierce as someone who's only been here for a short while as the only real documentation I can ever find is on this forum. |
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Post by Allohak on Oct 5, 2021 20:36:43 GMT -6
Lassiter was an ugly situation. No one was going to fill Alfred Watkins' shoes: ANYBODY that came in after him was going to be seen as a "step down" whether that was actually true or not. So his replacement was doomed for a rough ride from the start. That's not unique to Lassiter: many bands and many band directors have struggled moving on from a "band god." That said, Lassiter is a terrible lesson in what happens when the band boosters get too much power. I don't know if Ginny Markham was the right choice to keep Lassiter at its lofty heights. I do know that the band parents at Lassiter behaved execrably towards her and refused to work with her or give her much of a chance at all. What specifically happened to Lassiter? Was it just continuous director changes, financial issues or a combination of things? BOA history is hard to pierce as someone who's only been here for a short while as the only real documentation I can ever find is on this forum. Exactly as hostrauser said - Alfred Watkins' time at the helm at Lassiter came to an end, they hired Ginny Markham to take the reins, the boosters/parents undermined her at every turn. Lassiter hasn't been the same since. Of course, it can't help that there have been several new high schools open in Cobb County in the past 20 years |
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Post by srv1084 on Oct 5, 2021 20:41:50 GMT -6
What specifically happened to Lassiter? Was it just continuous director changes, financial issues or a combination of things? BOA history is hard to pierce as someone who's only been here for a short while as the only real documentation I can ever find is on this forum. Exactly as hostrauser said - Alfred Watkins' time at the helm at Lassiter came to an end, they hired Ginny Markham to take the reins, the boosters/parents undermined her at every turn. Lassiter hasn't been the same since. Of course, it can't help that there have been several new high schools open in Cobb County in the past 20 years Don't forget the parents and students who openly criticized her at school board meetings and to news stations, while parents sat back and watched their kids publicly spew nonsense with a complete lack of respect. They gave her absolutely no shot of succeeding by refusing to buy in from day one. If I remember correctly, Watkins even supported or endorsed the hire, which made the situation even more puzzling. While we truly don't know where the program would be today under Markham, the downfall of the program is squarely on the shoulders of boosters and their class of 2013-2016 students who had experience under Watkins (the former Watkins students surely didn't help by providing a poor example to new students by being so publicly vocal in their disapproval). I can think of a similar situation with another former finalist, but perhaps not to the same extent as it seems to have been kept mostly in-house. |
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Post by Marching Observer on Oct 5, 2021 21:05:39 GMT -6
Director: Let me do what I need to do.
Boosters: We know what's best!
Director: Oh really?
*Results come in*
Boosters: Why aren't we good anymore?
*Surprised Pikachu Face*
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Post by hostrauser on Oct 6, 2021 8:38:58 GMT -6
Exactly as hostrauser said - Alfred Watkins' time at the helm at Lassiter came to an end, they hired Ginny Markham to take the reins, the boosters/parents undermined her at every turn. Lassiter hasn't been the same since. Of course, it can't help that there have been several new high schools open in Cobb County in the past 20 years Don't forget the parents and students who openly criticized her at school board meetings and to news stations, while parents sat back and watched their kids publicly spew nonsense with a complete lack of respect. They gave her absolutely no shot of succeeding by refusing to buy in from day one. If I remember correctly, Watkins even supported or endorsed the hire, which made the situation even more puzzling. While we truly don't know where the program would be today under Markham, the downfall of the program is squarely on the shoulders of boosters and their class of 2013-2016 students who had experience under Watkins (the former Watkins students surely didn't help by providing a poor example to new students by being so publicly vocal in their disapproval). I can think of a similar situation with another former finalist, but perhaps not to the same extent as it seems to have been kept mostly in-house. Alfred Watkins supported the hire, and Gary Markham (one of BOA's top judges and Ginny's husband) is the supervisor of music programs for the ENTIRE DISTRICT. Literally everything was in place for Lassiter to continue being a juggernaut, but the "I know best" crowd of students and band parents without music degrees pushed back on all of it. (Narrator: they did not know best.) |
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Post by paddy on Oct 6, 2021 11:17:08 GMT -6
Let’s be honest, we all know a number of people with music degrees that can’t run a competitive marching band.
However, it is the parent’s job to support and encourage.
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Post by Marching Observer on Oct 6, 2021 12:57:41 GMT -6
Parent support is needed for:
*Fundraising
*Encouraging your kid to be involved in the arts
*Giving your kids the tools you can to excel ie, tutoring lessons, quality products, etc
*Prop building
*Chaperones
*Engaging with the community for support
Parents are not needed for:
*Show design decisions
*How practices are run (exception is if the kids are being put in danger)
I'm sure there are more but you get the jist.
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Post by marimba11 on Oct 6, 2021 12:58:11 GMT -6
Let’s be honest, we all know a number of people with music degrees that can’t run a competitive marching band. However, it is the parent’s job to support and encourage. I agree 💯 but on the flip side you can see many “National” programs across the Midwest that cannot play worth a flip yet design and visual are carrying the load to meet BOA metrics. Parent support is core and baseline period! I might have missed the context here 🤣 Lol, you are inviting the heat!  While I think there is some truth to your statement about the Midwest being more design and visual focused, that is arguably the more difficult thing to achieve in the competitive marching band activity (well I guess our entire activity). Music educators have music degrees, not design or athletic degrees. I think "can't play worth a flip" is an exaggeration, but Texas does lead the pack there is no doubt. But the programs that do best competitively are of course the ones that do all captions best, as it should be. But this is music education and many (including me) argue that music should be the first priority. I have personally been in a group (not high school) where visual and GE was focused more and our playing ability took a backseat - it wasn't nearly as enjoyable for the members when the priorities were flipped. Just my opinion |
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Post by marimba11 on Oct 6, 2021 13:00:58 GMT -6
But the weird part about Cobb County is that they actually really focus on music but in recent years it hasn't really shown through like it has in the past. Also percussion, the ATL area has some great percussion programs too.
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Post by Allohak on Oct 6, 2021 17:54:24 GMT -6
The mid-to-late 90s through the aughts and into the teens were a heck if a time for this activity and several of the Cobb bands found great niches to fill
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Post by marimba11 on Oct 6, 2021 17:56:10 GMT -6
The most puzzling to me is what happened to Kennesaw Mountain. I think it was Allatoona that opened in 2008 and took a fair bit of numbers from KM. They never seemed to really recover numbers wise and just kept getting smaller and smaller every year until basically 2019. When Starnes left in 2011 and McGrath came even he wasn't able to turn the tide much - very surprising tbh. we heard many excuses. Apparently KM is a magnet high school and they had hard time retaining upperclassman who wanted to focus more on academics.
Harrison went through a few director changes after Weiss left at the end of the last decade. However, they never really had a bad year until 2017 and didn't numbers swing nearly as much as KM. In fact I'd argue that was really their only rough patch. They were pretty darn close to finals in 2019 - - and lets be honest that for the most part were almost always a bubble band anyway.
with Starnes running the strings department at KM I wonder if he helps with the band now too
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Post by thewho on Oct 6, 2021 19:21:13 GMT -6
I've removed the off-topic posts and left those continuing to discuss the Cobb County bands.
Seriously, stop soapboxing. Any instigators will receive a warning.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Oct 7, 2021 14:58:17 GMT -6
I want to send a whole hearted apology for my comments yesterday. This is a marching band forum and most of us are parents so I know emotions run high occasionally. I feel I may have over exercised that privilege. No excuses but I am In Mexico on vacation and maybe the tequila was talking 😎. Those on this forum that know me can attest that I’m opinionated yet fair on my assessments. I feel I crossed the line and wanted to apologize. #drinkingandhornranking 😇
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Post by ps0010 on Nov 4, 2021 20:25:54 GMT -6
Just finished watching what I assume is the only video of Lassiter’s show this year. I realize that many programs suffered this year due to Covid over the last 18 or so months but I have to say that I was surprised with tonight’s performance and not in a good way. Not sure what’s going on with this program but it’s sad for me to see what was once a great program this down.
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5659lt
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by 5659lt on Nov 5, 2021 6:23:14 GMT -6
Just finished watching what I assume is the only video of Lassiter’s show this year. I realize that many programs suffered this year due to Covid over the last 18 or so months but I have to say that I was surprised with tonight’s performance and not in a good way. Not sure what’s going on with this program but it’s sad for me to see what was once a great program this down. See in exact contrast to this, I saw a video of Walton a few weeks ago at what I (think) was their last competition of the year, and they looked/sounded great. Best Walton show I think I’ve ever seen. I hadn’t really paid attention to them till Powder Springs this year but they’ve impressed me. Even posted about it in the Johnson City regional page cause I wish they had made the trip up. |
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While I think there is some truth to your statement about the Midwest being more design and visual focused, that is arguably the more difficult thing to achieve in the competitive marching band activity (well I guess our entire activity). Music educators have music degrees, not design or athletic degrees. I think "can't play worth a flip" is an exaggeration, but Texas does lead the pack there is no doubt. 
