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Post by dbbandalum on Sept 21, 2023 17:20:20 GMT -6
Not as weird as the others on here since prelims scores always tend to be a little wonky at GN, but DB getting first in Visual Ensemble with only an 18.90 in 2017 strikes me as a little weird. Mainly because of how low of a score that is for a first place at GN.
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Post by hostrauser on Sept 22, 2023 20:34:56 GMT -6
2003 Phoenix, AZ Regional Championship
23 bands in Prelims. NONE from Arizona. (It was the same day as the AZ State Marching Competitions.)
Arizona is a BIG state, and Phoenix is right in the middle of it. None of the bands that attended the regional were located within FOUR HOURS of the regional site. The closest band was Imperial H.S., CA, who came from 250 miles away.
Mead H.S., WA and Bellevue East H.S., NE attended the regional, but no Arizona bands.
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Post by redteam1114 on Dec 9, 2023 23:08:30 GMT -6
Was doing some digging through some of the results at Super Regionals this past decade out of curiosity, specifically from 2018 onward when BOA went to the 2 panel system for prelims at Super Regionals. As we're all Familiar with now, the finalists went from being determined by the top 14 scoring bands to it being the top 5 scoring bands from each panel and the next 4 highest scoring bands regardless of panel. Fortunately, we have not had a scenario yet where in theory a band has not qualified for finals when all the scores put together has them as a top 14 band (i.e. the 5th place band in one panel was 15th overall leaving the 14th highest scoring band out).
However, with the 2 panel system, one could assume that there are a couple of outcomes that would mean the system worked to perfection or at least close to it. For lack of better wording, I'll be using the terms as "ideal outcomes" and the "perfect outcome."
In the ideal outcome, the top 5 scoring bands from each panel end up being the top 10 overall scoring bands in prelims while the next 4 in are places 11-14 overall. Out of the 13 Super Regionals that have had the 2 panel system in prelims, only 4 have yielded that outcome (2018 San Antonio, 2019 San Antonio, 2023 Indianapolis, and 2023 San Antonio) for a frequency rate of around 30.8%.
The "perfect outcome" in the 2 panel system could be defined as the same as above in addition to 2 bands from each panel comprising the next 4 in. Out of the 13 Super Regionals with the 2 panel system for prelims, this has happened only once (2019 San Antonio) for an even slimmer 7.7% frequency of occurrence.
I just found it super fascinating that those outcomes have happened so infrequently since the 2 panel system has been implemented. However, even though a trend seems to be evident, I'll wait for a larger sample size to be available by the end of the decade to see if the trend still holds 😊
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Post by bandirectorman on Dec 10, 2023 20:40:49 GMT -6
In grand nationals in 2022, Southlake Carroll got and 86.6 in prelims, placing 22. In semis, they got a 90.2, jumping to 11th and making finals. In finals, they got a 91 and placed 7th. This is maybe the fastest growth in competition I’ve ever heard of. More of an indictment on subpar judging than massive gains in achievement.
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Post by statechamp1239 on Dec 11, 2023 6:52:33 GMT -6
Franklin from TN won Chattanooga Prelims and didn't place first in any captions as well sub captions.
M Ind = Cass, GA M Ens = Sparkman, AL Music = Sparkman, AL
V Ind = Siegel, TN V Ens = Evansville North, IN Visual = Siegel, TN
GE Music 1 = Cass, GA GE Music 2 = Sparkman, AL GE Music = Cass, GA
GE Visual = Evansville North, IN General Effect = Cass, GA
Overall: 73.55 - Franklin, TN 73.05 - Cass, GA General Effect 72.12 - Sparkman, AL Music 71.65 - Evansville North, IN 70.50 - Munford, TN 70.25 - Siegel, TN Visual
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Post by hewhowaits on Dec 11, 2023 6:53:08 GMT -6
In grand nationals in 2022, Southlake Carroll got and 86.6 in prelims, placing 22. In semis, they got a 90.2, jumping to 11th and making finals. In finals, they got a 91 and placed 7th. This is maybe the fastest growth in competition I’ve ever heard of. More of an indictment on subpar judging than massive gains in achievement. 86.6 as one of 99 groups and 90.2 as one of 34 groups is neither subpar judging nor a significant gain in achievement. It's just a fact of life when judges are only allowed to give ONE group any given score, even though there may be several groups reaching the EXACT same level of quality. It's not a judging problem, it's a judging RULES problem.
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Post by Allohak on Dec 11, 2023 8:24:47 GMT -6
More of an indictment on subpar judging than massive gains in achievement. 86.6 as one of 99 groups and 90.2 as one of 34 groups is neither subpar judging nor a significant gain in achievement. It's just a fact of life when judges are only allowed to give ONE group any given score, even though there may be several groups reaching the EXACT same level of quality. It's not a judging problem, it's a judging RULES problem. Actually, IMHO, 2022 GN is one of the most head-scratchingly judged events in recent memory. Keeping in mind these groups also had significant movement from the same prelims panel: Hendrickson moved from 16th to 12th and in finals. Byrnes moved from 23rd to 14th Kiski moved from 27th to 20th And I will always want justice for American Fork. They were deserving of a 3rd performance. And MG Johnson. About the only thing the judges all agreed on that weekend was Dobyns-Bennett 6th.
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Post by thewho on Dec 11, 2023 8:56:40 GMT -6
86.6 as one of 99 groups and 90.2 as one of 34 groups is neither subpar judging nor a significant gain in achievement. It's just a fact of life when judges are only allowed to give ONE group any given score, even though there may be several groups reaching the EXACT same level of quality. It's not a judging problem, it's a judging RULES problem. Actually, IMHO, 2022 GN is one of the most head-scratchingly judged events in recent memory. Keeping in mind these groups also had significant movement from the same prelims panel: Hendrickson moved from 16th to 12th and in finals. Byrnes moved from 23rd to 14th Kiski moved from 27th to 20th And I will always want justice for American Fork. They were deserving of a 3rd performance. And MG Johnson. About the only thing the judges all agreed on that weekend was Dobyns-Bennett 6th. Annnnnd this is the one case where I pity the judges because the competition was so absurdly even at the sub-caption levels that the most outlandish overall placements were still realistically plausible. Wonky weekend for sure, but not without a good cause unlike most other incidents. 2022 is a dumb example to use as a crusade against the current judging system and claiming themselves can give better numbers.
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Post by bandirectorman on Dec 11, 2023 17:12:30 GMT -6
More of an indictment on subpar judging than massive gains in achievement. 86.6 as one of 99 groups and 90.2 as one of 34 groups is neither subpar judging nor a significant gain in achievement. It's just a fact of life when judges are only allowed to give ONE group any given score, even though there may be several groups reaching the EXACT same level of quality. It's not a judging problem, it's a judging RULES problem. Yes and no. There's a ton of laziness but we've gone over that plenty.
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Post by redteam1114 on Dec 11, 2023 20:32:14 GMT -6
Not meaning to get super obscure, but came to this realization in which the odds of this happening in the exact same way twice are astronomical.
As a good number of you may know, Lincoln HS (SD) has typically performed at the St. Louis Super Regional. 7 out of their 9 appearances at an SR have been there, in fact. The other two have been in Indianapolis (2018 and 2023).
Each time that Lincoln has gone to Indy for the super regional there, each of the following happened:
1. The first band out of finals performed in the first block on that Saturday (2018 Lincoln and 2023 Lincoln-Way Community HS (IL))
2. The 2nd place band in Class AA was a band from Missouri that would then go on to be the first band out of finals at the St. Louis Super Regional the very next weekend (2018 Fort Zumwalt North HS and 2023 Grain Valley HS)
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Post by es203 on Dec 11, 2023 20:38:48 GMT -6
86.6 as one of 99 groups and 90.2 as one of 34 groups is neither subpar judging nor a significant gain in achievement. It's just a fact of life when judges are only allowed to give ONE group any given score, even though there may be several groups reaching the EXACT same level of quality. It's not a judging problem, it's a judging RULES problem. Actually, IMHO, 2022 GN is one of the most head-scratchingly judged events in recent memory. Keeping in mind these groups also had significant movement from the same prelims panel: Hendrickson moved from 16th to 12th and in finals. Byrnes moved from 23rd to 14th Kiski moved from 27th to 20th And I will always want justice for American Fork. They were deserving of a 3rd performance. And MG Johnson. About the only thing the judges all agreed on that weekend was Dobyns-Bennett 6th. JUSTICE FOR AF. The judges are going to place them top half in finals this coming year because they feel bad about 2022. And they should.
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Post by bandirectorman on Dec 12, 2023 11:41:40 GMT -6
Actually, IMHO, 2022 GN is one of the most head-scratchingly judged events in recent memory. Keeping in mind these groups also had significant movement from the same prelims panel: Hendrickson moved from 16th to 12th and in finals. Byrnes moved from 23rd to 14th Kiski moved from 27th to 20th And I will always want justice for American Fork. They were deserving of a 3rd performance. And MG Johnson. About the only thing the judges all agreed on that weekend was Dobyns-Bennett 6th. JUSTICE FOR AF. The judges are going to place them top half in finals this coming year because they feel bad about 2022. And they should. Come on. Payback is Marian Catholic 1994. Lake Park 1996. Lassiter 2002, Westfield 2003. LD Bell 2007. The Woodlands 2013. Carmel 2012. Avon 2023. And don't get me started on the Espirit de Corps award.. which is most definitely PAYBACK for something.. (a drop in placement.. longevity..).. just like the Rose Bowl invite can be considered PAYBACK. Actual WINS though can be argued as PAYBACK, at least in the distant past. Finals appearances being sought as 'payback' are weird and will not happen. The judges have enough trouble staying on top of things anyway. Trust me, I know.
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Post by thewho on Dec 12, 2023 14:18:45 GMT -6
JUSTICE FOR AF. The judges are going to place them top half in finals this coming year because they feel bad about 2022. And they should. Come on. Payback is Marian Catholic 1994. Lake Park 1996. Lassiter 2002, Westfield 2003. LD Bell 2007. The Woodlands 2013. Carmel 2012. Avon 2023. And don't get me started on the Espirit de Corps award.. which is most definitely PAYBACK for something.. (a drop in placement.. longevity..).. just like the Rose Bowl invite can be considered PAYBACK. Actual WINS though can be argued as PAYBACK, at least in the distant past. Finals appearances being sought as 'payback' are weird and will not happen. The judges have enough trouble staying on top of things anyway. Trust me, I know. And no, I really don't.
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Post by es203 on Dec 13, 2023 8:49:22 GMT -6
JUSTICE FOR AF. The judges are going to place them top half in finals this coming year because they feel bad about 2022. And they should. Come on. Payback is Marian Catholic 1994. Lake Park 1996. Lassiter 2002, Westfield 2003. LD Bell 2007. The Woodlands 2013. Carmel 2012. Avon 2023. And don't get me started on the Espirit de Corps award.. which is most definitely PAYBACK for something.. (a drop in placement.. longevity..).. just like the Rose Bowl invite can be considered PAYBACK. Actual WINS though can be argued as PAYBACK, at least in the distant past. Finals appearances being sought as 'payback' are weird and will not happen. The judges have enough trouble staying on top of things anyway. Trust me, I know. I wasn’t being serious. I never am.
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Post by supersound on Jan 7, 2024 14:02:38 GMT -6
Coppell was administered a 0.45 penalty in the prelims of Southlake in 2017. Penalties are supposed to be administered using a .1 scale. Does anyone know what happened?
This contest also had only one music judge, but this has happened before.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Jan 9, 2024 9:34:19 GMT -6
Coppell was administered a 0.45 penalty in the prelims of Southlake in 2017. Penalties are supposed to be administered using a .1 scale. Does anyone know what happened? This contest also had only one music judge, but this has happened before. I honestly have no idea.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Jan 9, 2024 10:56:34 GMT -6
Coppell was administered a 0.45 penalty in the prelims of Southlake in 2017. Penalties are supposed to be administered using a .1 scale. Does anyone know what happened? This contest also had only one music judge, but this has happened before. I honestly have no idea. we discussed this heavily on the TXBands forum back in ‘17. Jeremiah even posted this link. www.hornrank.com/2017/09/southlake-prelims-sept-30-2017.html
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Post by jeremiah on Jan 12, 2024 21:11:18 GMT -6
Yup, some classic penalty massaging to make sure a penalty doesn't push a group out of finals.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Feb 24, 2024 11:40:01 GMT -6
I think one of the biggest oddities in BOA/MBA will be the two national championships held in the 1980s. As you all know, Grand Nationals was first held in June in 1976 in Whitewater, WI. In 1980, Grand Nationals was moved to the fall. BOA (or MBA then) decided however that they would keep the June Whitewater competition and just rename it the Summer Nationals. So from 1980 to 1989, there were effectively two national champions from the same circuit in a given year. In the early 1980s, the Summer National Champion had about as much prestige as the fall Grand National Champion. That began to change during the latter half of the 1980s as Grand Nationals (and fall competitions in general) got bigger and bigger and the Summer Nationals (and the summer competitive programs in general) got smaller and smaller.
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Post by statechamp1239 on Feb 24, 2024 11:53:59 GMT -6
I think one of the biggest oddities in BOA/MBA will be the two national championships held in the 1980s. As you all know, Grand Nationals was first held in June in 1976 in Whitewater, WI. In 1980, Grand Nationals was moved to the fall. BOA (or MBA then) decided however that they would keep the June Whitewater competition and just rename it the Summer Nationals. So from 1980 to 1989, there were effectively two national champions from the same circuit in a given year. In the early 1980s, the Summer National Champion had about as much prestige as the fall Grand National Champion. That began to change during the latter half of the 1980s as Grand Nationals (and fall competitions in general) got bigger and bigger and the Summer Nationals (and the summer competitive programs in general) got smaller and smaller. I've always to know do bands play separate Summer and Fall shows or the same fall show? When do they normally start their summer shows?
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Post by boahistorybuff on Feb 24, 2024 12:38:48 GMT -6
I think one of the biggest oddities in BOA/MBA will be the two national championships held in the 1980s. As you all know, Grand Nationals was first held in June in 1976 in Whitewater, WI. In 1980, Grand Nationals was moved to the fall. BOA (or MBA then) decided however that they would keep the June Whitewater competition and just rename it the Summer Nationals. So from 1980 to 1989, there were effectively two national champions from the same circuit in a given year. In the early 1980s, the Summer National Champion had about as much prestige as the fall Grand National Champion. That began to change during the latter half of the 1980s as Grand Nationals (and fall competitions in general) got bigger and bigger and the Summer Nationals (and the summer competitive programs in general) got smaller and smaller. I've always to know do bands play separate Summer and Fall shows or the same fall show? When do they normally start their summer shows? Back then, bands that competed both in summer and fall circuits did two different shows. They started rehearsing the summer shows in the spring. My alma matter, Flushing, only competed in the fall in the 70s and 80s. However, they decided to attend the 1979 Grand Nationals held in June. They did a new show for that competition, different from their fall show. They began rehearsing in the spring and took the show to nationals in June. Back in the 1970s into the early 1980s, shows were not nearly as complex as what they are today. In fact, as show designs began to get more difficult, complex and costly during the course of the 1980s, more and more bands stopped doing a summer competitive season and only focused on the fall. Another thing to consider is that during the 1970s, many of the drill designs were written by the director. In the 1980s, more high school bands were employing designers and staff who were often involved with drum corps in the summer months and would not have been able to work with a high school band in an early summer competitive season. Believe it or not, the era of summer competitions kind of pre dates me. They were fading away when I was a Freshman in 1988. There are some on these forums who were in the activity in the 1970s who can give more details as to what a summer competition season was like. I do believe that some of the earliest competitive corps style high school programs competed in the summer months. I suspect a lot of this comes from the fact that back in the mid 20th century marching bands and drum corps did a lot of performing at Memorial Day and 4th of July parades and festivals.
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Post by kvgdc on Feb 24, 2024 16:47:20 GMT -6
Separate shows continued until at least 1988.
Marian Catholic had just racked up their 5th consecutive summer championship and did their summer show going into an early fall competition in Chesterton, IN that year as a Chicago area competition was canceled due to some venue issue or something. I was marching at Northrop (Ft. Wayne, IN) in my senior year and we beat them without our closer drill done yet.
They were a complete class act about it, came over to our busses and celebrated with us and everything. Of course they went on with their Fall show and won Grand Nationals in Pontiac later that season. We didn't do GN that year.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Feb 24, 2024 18:40:14 GMT -6
Separate shows continued until at least 1988. Marian Catholic had just racked up their 5th consecutive summer championship and did their summer show going into an early fall competition in Chesterton, IN that year as a Chicago area competition was canceled due to some venue issue or something. I was marching at Northrop (Ft. Wayne, IN) in my senior year and we beat them without our closer drill done yet. They were a complete class act about it, came over to our busses and celebrated with us and everything. Of course they went on with their Fall show and won Grand Nationals in Pontiac later that season. We didn't do GN that year. The fact that Marian did their summer show into early fall, then learned that 88 fall show, performed incredibly well at Grand Nationals, just amazes me. I believe 1988 was the last year Marian did summer competitions and had a summer show. That is likely why the difficulty of their shows increased immensely in the years that followed. And yes, Marian was always a class act.
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Post by kvgdc on Feb 26, 2024 19:59:34 GMT -6
Yeah we were unaware they were doing their summer show for the competition thinking "wow they have their whole show out and it's good." They were telling us 'well that was our summer show, we've been learning our fall show but dusted this off this week to prep fro this contest knowing Indiana bands don't quite have full shows out yet. But you beat us!" We saw their fall show later in the season and were like 'dang....they got that clean in that short of time?"
And yeah this was before the hyper ramping of complexity of shows, but they weren't putting nothing burgers out there at all. We'd seen them the previous year at the infamous rainsoaked Terre Haute MBA regional. They beat us in prelims and finals. We beat Lake Park in prelims by a lot but LP caught us in finals by a hair. We'd rarely had 'two performace shows' and the night show was COLD in wet uniforms. Plus our parents group had gone under the overhang to shelter form the weather so we weren't greeted with our usual massive block of orange jacketed lunatics waving orange shakers and making a ton of noise. It sort of caught us off guard after we'd wowed everyone from a judges comment at critique that "Northrop was the only band that looked like it wasn't raining."
LP and Marian were pretty bitter rivals that year and we were in retreat between them. The LP kids had apparently been told to congratulate Marian if they lost to them and BROKE THROUGH OUR RANKS to do so. Our director and Bimm were pretty pissed off at LP after that.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Feb 27, 2024 4:12:00 GMT -6
Yeah we were unaware they were doing their summer show for the competition thinking "wow they have their whole show out and it's good." They were telling us 'well that was our summer show, we've been learning our fall show but dusted this off this week to prep fro this contest knowing Indiana bands don't quite have full shows out yet. But you beat us!" We saw their fall show later in the season and were like 'dang....they got that clean in that short of time?" And yeah this was before the hyper ramping of complexity of shows, but they weren't putting nothing burgers out there at all. We'd seen them the previous year at the infamous rainsoaked Terre Haute MBA regional. They beat us in prelims and finals. We beat Lake Park in prelims by a lot but LP caught us in finals by a hair. We'd rarely had 'two performace shows' and the night show was COLD in wet uniforms. Plus our parents group had gone under the overhang to shelter form the weather so we weren't greeted with our usual massive block of orange jacketed lunatics waving orange shakers and making a ton of noise. It sort of caught us off guard after we'd wowed everyone from a judges comment at critique that "Northrop was the only band that looked like it wasn't raining." LP and Marian were pretty bitter rivals that year and we were in retreat between them. The LP kids had apparently been told to congratulate Marian if they lost to them and BROKE THROUGH OUR RANKS to do so. Our director and Bimm were pretty pissed off at LP after that. Interesting history there. Perhaps that explains why in 1988 Lake Park traveled all the way Akron for the BOA regional. No head to head competition with Marian. And yes Marian's 1988 show was by no means simplistic. I did not see it until the very end, Grand National Finals. It was just incredible. After the awards, I remember us wondering if that was the largest point spread between first and second (it was). We were also thinking "wow! Marian just tied Rocky Mount for most GN wins" (Marian would then eclipse them the next year).
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Post by boahistorybuff on Mar 1, 2024 6:56:59 GMT -6
Although it was not odd at the time, it is likely odd today for those watching those old vintage videos of the 1970s and early 1980s, the use of a pistol shot by one of the judges. Someone can correct me if I am wrong (this era kind of pre dates me), two shots of a pistol were fired into the air to let the field judges know that they could enter the field at the very start of the show. Prior to the end of the show (I believe somewhere around the last two minutes or so) two pistol shots were fired again to let the field judges know that it was time to exit the field. Yes, the last couple minutes of the show were performed with no judges on the field. I believe one pistol shot was also fired to signal a penalty (penalties were often frequent and large back in those days).
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Post by marimba11 on Mar 1, 2024 16:07:43 GMT -6
Coppell was administered a 0.45 penalty in the prelims of Southlake in 2017. Penalties are supposed to be administered using a .1 scale. Does anyone know what happened? This contest also had only one music judge, but this has happened before. Hmm, I don't know if I like that. If the penalty increase only goes by .1 and it pushed them out of finals, then so be it... Crossmen almost lost out of DCI finals in 2014 because of a penalty (which we Colts would have benefited from). I think penalties should be treated just like anything else as long as there is obviously justification from rule books. All directors and staff should be versed in the rules. 2017 DB had those huge flowers on their props that went over the height requirement at Winston-Salem, I think Lafe Cook and Wes have been around the block enough to know that surely.
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