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Post by Momof20613 on Jul 13, 2022 17:49:53 GMT -6
How much do these competitive, custom made shows cost for the biggest schools, AAA/AAAA? I’m just curious how much and how the process works.
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Post by paddy on Jul 13, 2022 19:09:18 GMT -6
Design (drill, visuals, music) or full production (props, flags, costuming, etc)?
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Post by dbalash on Jul 14, 2022 8:09:02 GMT -6
I know it's drum corps, but still:
Bluecoats are selling their set, uniforms, , flags, etc. You can buy the whole kit and kaboodle for ~$122,000, which they're saying is 10% off.
Depending on the band, take into account custom arranging, drill, flying the arrangers out for rehearsal, custom uniforms, etc., and you're easily talking mid 5 figures, and going north of that. Add in props, tarps, flags, even higher.
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Post by philodemus on Jul 14, 2022 8:31:35 GMT -6
This is actually a surprisingly difficult question to answer. Just cruise around the websites of arrangers and drill writers and check their prices... you can't. It's a black box, no pricing formulas out there to compare. Just with drill for an example, it's totally all over the board... you can pay anything from 'free' to 'your first born child and their first born child.' And here's the thing: while it's a pretty good bet that a $500 drill isn't as good as a $10,000 drill, it's not so clear that the $10,000 drill is better than say, a $5,000 drill.
The Invisible Hand of the Market has never heard of the marching arts and has no power here.
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Post by Momof20613 on Jul 14, 2022 9:29:09 GMT -6
Design (drill, visuals, music) or full production (props, flags, costuming, etc)? Mainly the custom made drill/music arrangement. It’s pretty easy to see how much the costumes, flags, jackets, props etc are, but like someone else said, no designer advertises their price for custom work. I know you can buy “boxed” shows, ie: premade, and those aren’t particularly expensive, but I know custom has to be much more. |
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Post by marimba11 on Jul 14, 2022 11:36:13 GMT -6
I think Wes alone charges 30k. Doubt that includes drill or music arrangements. Let alone props.
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Post by paddy on Jul 14, 2022 12:37:14 GMT -6
Design (drill, visuals, music) or full production (props, flags, costuming, etc)? Mainly the custom made drill/music arrangement. It’s pretty easy to see how much the costumes, flags, jackets, props etc are, but like someone else said, no designer advertises their price for custom work. I know you can buy “boxed” shows, ie: premade, and those aren’t particularly expensive, but I know custom has to be much more. Local band I know pays about $30k for drill, music, choreography/visual design and design coordination. They are ISSMA champion/BOA semifinal level competitive. |
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Post by 70sguardchick on Jul 14, 2022 14:36:37 GMT -6
Seems about right. Prop design and construction not included - that's done locally by the parents, based on a general design concept. Designer flies out at least once to view the show and recommend any tweaks.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Jul 15, 2022 10:03:12 GMT -6
It would be really interesting to see a year by year (adjusted for inflation) graph going back to the late 1960s/early 1970s. I would be interested to see if the costs for top level national high school competitive marching bands (total costs per season) is a straight line going up or if the slope goes up exponentially. My guess would be that it rose exponentially during the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s, with the slope leveling off a bit more over the last 10 years. Believe it or not, back in the 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s, there were a few inner-city and several small rural town high schools that had among the best marching bands in the country. No way could those school come close to having the budgets necessary to compete with the top-level marching bands in the country today.
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Post by elsie on Jul 15, 2022 16:59:26 GMT -6
It’s sad fully in-house designs are becoming so rare…they can’t compete. Even the smaller bands in the 30’s and 40’s are buying out these big shell designs…
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Post by ilikeguard on Jul 25, 2022 10:15:45 GMT -6
I think Wes alone charges 30k. Doubt that includes drill or music arrangements. Let alone props. Was going to say I think I remember it being around 40k when I was in high school, but that’s been years ago. Even then the props and a lot of visual stuff was done in-house. |
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Post by QuadSquad03 on Aug 6, 2022 17:01:54 GMT -6
Bixby does everything in house. The directors design the shows and write the music, and a group of band parents make the props. The only thing that comes to mind that they actually have to order are the flags, and if they decide to have a tarp. I didn't realize until getting on the forums that most bands either bought pre-made shows or ordered custom shows. It doesn't sit right with me that a band can get an instant GE advantage by having more money than bands that can't afford designers like Wes, but I guess that's just the way the world works.
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Post by supersound on Aug 6, 2022 17:26:22 GMT -6
Bixby does everything in house. The directors design the shows and write the music, and a group of band parents make the props. The only thing that comes to mind that they actually have to order are the flags, and if they decide to have a tarp. I didn't realize until getting on the forums that most bands either bought pre-made shows or ordered custom shows. It doesn't sit right with me that a band can get an instant GE advantage by having more money than bands that can't afford designers like Wes, but I guess that's just the way the world works. Bixby is as far as I know the only high-level band that still has their directors write the show (other than Marian Catholic, but I’m not sure) it’s really incredibly they’ve managed to maintain competitiveness with this |
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Post by antroot on Aug 7, 2022 13:18:42 GMT -6
Just putting my two cents in: there are only a handful a bands in the PNW that do custom shows currently. Many bands in Washington and Oregon just get pre-made shows, maybe change the title of it, switch some solos around, sometimes just straight up changing the theme while keeping the music intact. Off the top of my head, the bands that still do custom shows in this region are: Central Valley, Century, Grants Pass, Kamiak, Mountainside, Ridgeline, Roseburg, Sherwood, West Salem... I'm sure I'm missing a couple more but that's about it.
Even then, it's a much smaller world than it seems. The director of Grants Pass, Lewis Norfleet, arranges for Sherwood, Kamiak, and Grants Pass (obviously), along with arranging for many other bands in the country. I know Becca Anderson (designer for the Mandarins) and her husband work with Grants Pass, Sheldon, and Sherwood HS. Nick Benson (former designer and visual caption head for the Troopers and Seattle Cascades) works with Century, Dawson HS in Texas, tons of other bands in the nation, alongside being the head designer and visual caption head for Kamiak. West Salem is about as in-house as you can get. Their director, Todd Zimbelman, chooses the theme, music, arranges the music, etc. He is a powerhouse. He also arranges Mountainside's music. Century HS has their music arranged by Cooper Ottum, an alumni. His biggest gig currently is with O'Fallon Township.
As for how much custom shows cost... I don't really know. A lot of the people help make these shows happen to give these kids a good competitive experience. I think we all know if you do band, you're really not doing it for the money. Just hoping this provides some insight into how some design things work in the PNW.
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Post by philodemus on Aug 7, 2022 13:40:03 GMT -6
I know the focus of this forum is very much the highest level of competitive band, but I think once you get down just one or two levels, doing things in-house becomes much more common. Here in Kentucky, our elite groups are probably split 50/50. I'm fairly certain Bourbon and Murray are in house, and I suspect so are North Hardin and Anderson. Lafayette works with national level designers, and I think so does Adair.
My take on it is this: being a band director is really, really hard and involves tons of different skill sets. Teaching skills and content knowledge, obviously, but then the local political savvy to line up you community behind the program and fund the whole operation. Sometimes, you find people who not only are great at all these things, but are also really creative. They do exist, but honestly, it's asking a whole lot from a single individual.
So, if you're a director who's awesome at all those other things, why not farm out the creative stuff to people who have those skills?
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Post by paddy on Aug 7, 2022 14:22:07 GMT -6
I know the focus of this forum is very much the highest level of competitive band, but I think once you get down just one or two levels, doing things in-house becomes much more common. Here in Kentucky, our elite groups are probably split 50/50. I'm fairly certain Bourbon and Murray are in house, and I suspect so are North Hardin and Anderson. Lafayette works with national level designers, and I think so does Adair. My take on it is this: being a band director is really, really hard and involves tons of different skill sets. Teaching skills and content knowledge, obviously, but then the local political savvy to line up you community behind the program and fund the whole operation. Sometimes, you find people who not only are great at all these things, but are also really creative. They do exist, but honestly, it's asking a whole lot from a single individual. So, if you're a director who's awesome at all those other things, why not farm out the creative stuff to people who have those skills? Agreed I’ve worked with some really creative and talented directors that could do it all, but you also wouldn’t expect that director to not hire techs or a guard director, or a secretary. You also wouldn’t expect the director to handle uniforms, and chaperones, and feeding the band, and building props. Good programs leverage their resources to create the best experience for kids. It is a combination of using in house staff talent, hiring outside expertise and building a booster group that makes it happen. |
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Post by ohioguy2 on Aug 7, 2022 17:32:00 GMT -6
I think Wes alone charges 30k. Doubt that includes drill or music arrangements. Let alone props. Mason pays Wes $48,000. I’m not sure if that’s normal for all of his programs or not. |
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Post by principalagent on Aug 8, 2022 9:45:37 GMT -6
I know the focus of this forum is very much the highest level of competitive band, but I think once you get down just one or two levels, doing things in-house becomes much more common. Here in Kentucky, our elite groups are probably split 50/50. I'm fairly certain Bourbon and Murray are in house, and I suspect so are North Hardin and Anderson. Lafayette works with national level designers, and I think so does Adair. Just for the record, North Hardin, at least recently, spent several years with Cartwright and then switched to Vento just before the pandemic. Not sure if they’re still with her now, but they had also been using national designers. |
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Post by ohioguy2 on Aug 8, 2022 11:38:28 GMT -6
I know the focus of this forum is very much the highest level of competitive band, but I think once you get down just one or two levels, doing things in-house becomes much more common. Here in Kentucky, our elite groups are probably split 50/50. I'm fairly certain Bourbon and Murray are in house, and I suspect so are North Hardin and Anderson. Lafayette works with national level designers, and I think so does Adair. My take on it is this: being a band director is really, really hard and involves tons of different skill sets. Teaching skills and content knowledge, obviously, but then the local political savvy to line up you community behind the program and fund the whole operation. Sometimes, you find people who not only are great at all these things, but are also really creative. They do exist, but honestly, it's asking a whole lot from a single individual. So, if you're a director who's awesome at all those other things, why not farm out the creative stuff to people who have those skills? Looks like Bourbon Co. also uses several outside people. www.bocoband.org/staff.html |
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Post by marimba11 on Aug 8, 2022 11:57:32 GMT -6
I think Wes alone charges 30k. Doubt that includes drill or music arrangements. Let alone props. Mason pays Wes $48,000. I’m not sure if that’s normal for all of his programs or not. Makes sense. Sounds about right |
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Post by paddy on Aug 8, 2022 14:09:05 GMT -6
Mason pays Wes $48,000. I’m not sure if that’s normal for all of his programs or not. Makes sense. Sounds about right Actually, little of that makes sense or is about right. You can hire a really good group of professionals (I'm talking national level known names) to handle all aspects of your show design (music, drill, choreo, etc) and get a great show for less than that. |
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Post by yayband914 on Aug 8, 2022 14:35:39 GMT -6
Makes sense. Sounds about right Actually, little of that makes sense or is about right. You can hire a really good group of professionals (I'm talking national level known names) to handle all aspects of your show design (music, drill, choreo, etc) and get a great show for less than that. Wes Cartwright is the highest-paid marching arts professional in the idiom, and it doesn’t even come close. |
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Post by dbalash on Aug 8, 2022 14:51:38 GMT -6
Actually, little of that makes sense or is about right. You can hire a really good group of professionals (I'm talking national level known names) to handle all aspects of your show design (music, drill, choreo, etc) and get a great show for less than that. Wes Cartwright is the highest-paid marching arts professional in the idiom, and it doesn’t even come close. Hell, throw in a Bobby Lambert or Frank Kick leadership clinic, and I'm sure it's still way cheaper. |
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Post by paddy on Aug 8, 2022 16:11:40 GMT -6
Actually, little of that makes sense or is about right. You can hire a really good group of professionals (I'm talking national level known names) to handle all aspects of your show design (music, drill, choreo, etc) and get a great show for less than that. Wes Cartwright is the highest-paid marching arts professional in the idiom, and it doesn’t even come close. Good for him. Doesn’t change what I wrote. |
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Post by yayband914 on Aug 8, 2022 17:25:42 GMT -6
Wes Cartwright is the highest-paid marching arts professional in the idiom, and it doesn’t even come close. Good for him. Doesn’t change what I wrote. Who said it did? Just stating a fact, sir. I am indifferent on the matter. |
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Post by paddy on Aug 8, 2022 19:05:37 GMT -6
Good for him. Doesn’t change what I wrote. Who said it did? Just stating a fact, sir. I am indifferent on the matter. Just reemphasizing my opinion. We can share facts and opinions on here. |
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Post by marimba11 on Aug 8, 2022 19:10:41 GMT -6
Makes sense. Sounds about right Actually, little of that makes sense or is about right. You can hire a really good group of professionals (I'm talking national level known names) to handle all aspects of your show design (music, drill, choreo, etc) and get a great show for less than that. Oh yeah you can spend less and do very very well still, but some groups have the ability to pay this much. If they do great! More power to them if that’s the route they want to go |
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Post by paddy on Aug 8, 2022 19:17:11 GMT -6
Actually, little of that makes sense or is about right. You can hire a really good group of professionals (I'm talking national level known names) to handle all aspects of your show design (music, drill, choreo, etc) and get a great show for less than that. Oh yeah you can spend less and do very very well still, but some groups have the ability to pay this much. If they do great! More power to them if that’s the route they want to go Just cause you can, doesn’t mean you should. Fiscal responsibility is a thing. |
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Post by yayband914 on Aug 8, 2022 20:48:16 GMT -6
Oh yeah you can spend less and do very very well still, but some groups have the ability to pay this much. If they do great! More power to them if that’s the route they want to go Just cause you can, doesn’t mean you should. Fiscal responsibility is a thing. I agree. From what I know, the average “top tier” design rates range from $8,000-$12,000 for wind books, $2,500-$5,000 for full percussion books, and anywhere from $10,000-25,000 for visual design. Sound design can also vary widely from a couple to several thousand. And that’s just for high school band. You’re talking a lot more for world class drum corps. While certainly not cheap, all of those services combined equals the same amount as or less than what Wes Cartwright allegedly charges his “big jewelry” groups for his services, which, if I’m oversimplifying, is just telling other designers what to do (but also designing aesthetics, the same four albeit always effective guard tricks, etc). That’s not to say that doesn’t have its merit, but hey, being able to charge based on name and reputation alone must be really nice if you work with groups that can afford it. 99% of designers will never be that fortunate. |
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Post by boahistorybuff on Aug 12, 2022 4:59:50 GMT -6
What I find interesting is how a complete drum corps/marching band show design/arrangement industry has developed. I think some of the roots of this may go back to the 1970s when drill designs and musical arranging started to develop more complexity. I am sure the founding of Drum Corps International was a big catalyst for this. Many of the great designers of the 1980s/1990s performed in DCI in the 1970s. On the high school front, a lot of bands either relied on a talented director to write their drill and do the music arranging or they hired someone locally to do those tasks, the costs of which were nothing like today. Of course, most of those local drill writers had participated in drum corps. And I think most of those drill designers still had a 'day job'. In the 1980s, show designs became more complex, particularly among the top-level bands who competed in MBA/BOA. Unless you were Greg Bimm from Marian Catholic, you had to hire a designer or design team. Some of the top-level designers that emerged (like Steve Brubaker) ended up designing for many different bands, turning drum corps/marching band show design into a career. It seems this also started a trend where the top-level bands in BOA were from more affluent areas (yes many of the once great bands of the 60s and 70s could not afford the costs to produce a top-level show anymore). The great Rocky Mount marching band of the 1980s had (from my understanding) corporate sponsorships which covered the costs of their design team and instructional staff. During their glory years, their drill writer was the great Gary Czapinski. They also had a team of instructors who worked with top level drum corps (it was rumored they had some of the Cadets staff, although I am not too sure). When their corporate sponsorships ended toward the end of 1980s, even though Rocky Mount had a talented director, they could not produce the shows they had in the early/mid 1980s and ended up disappearing from BOA. But the seed was certainly planted. Top level high school marching bands needed top quality design staff/instructors and music arrangers. Of course, show designs have become ever more complex and require more time among the design staff, so of course the price tags are going to go up.
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