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Post by mk72 on Aug 7, 2022 19:19:31 GMT -6
I made this thread after reading some of the posts on the custom designs thread. I read some of the prices that these bands pay for their design and was reminded of the immense effect that the demographics of the surrounding area has on what type of show a band produces (and the overall wellbeing the entire band program).
It's no secret that money is a big driving factor behind many, many facets of keeping a band running. I'm not saying that it's the *only* or *primary* factor, but without money, not much can be done with band. One day, I was talking to a new friend about band after I found out we both did it in high school. I was in a strong semi-finalist band that invested a decent amount of money into the program (money that was completely derived from fundraising/donations within our area). I talked to him about our extravagant designs, all the different well-known designers we brought in, etc. In that conversation, I brought up how during one of our seasons, we didn't place as high as we usually do at the BOA comps we went to and how the main factor that tanked us at all of the comps was GE (aka design). I went on a slight rant about how much our designer screwed us over (though in hindsight, it was not a good idea), and that he didn't give us our "money's worth" for the design. My friend was visibly shaken when I mentioned all of this and instantly put me in check. He told me about how his school didn't come from as affluent of an area as mine and how they barely got any sort of money to fund their program. In that convo, he made it clear that one thing was always constant throughout any of their financial hardships: the dedication and passion of the students and staff. Hearing that made me realize how big of a factor money is in the wellbeing of a band. I know it's a bit harsh to focus on something so monetary, but it's a hard truth we need to realize (and often ignore).
There are so many students who are insanely dedicated to the arts across country, ones that would do anything to pursue their musical endeavors. However, there is a remarkable difference between those who have access to resources due to their program drawing in sufficient funds from the surrounding area vs. those who unfortunately cannot. Realizing this made me more appreciative of what I had bc it is very, very easy to gloss over the resources you have readily available and the immense privilege that comes with living in a more affluent area. This is in no way discrediting the hard work and effort that is put in by the students, parents, staff of bands that get those funds, but there are thousands of kids in not as "well off" areas (for a lack of a better term) who are just as capable of achieving the great things other students have had they gotten the right resources. It's a harsh truth of life that there are very clear, very extreme socioeconomic divides all across the world. I think it's imperative to keep our ignorance and privilege in check.
Just thought I'd get to know some of y'all's thoughts on this. This topic can go south real quick, so please try to keep your comments civil:)
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Post by lostchoirguy on Aug 7, 2022 23:44:46 GMT -6
This topic has been discussed quite a bit in the past. The wealth of students and the surrounding community is certainly a non-negligible influence on performance but it's not really that simple. A lot of that has to do with access to private lessons and support from school districts and state legislature.
However the culture of a region in regards to music education also has a huge influence. There are a number of schools that do not fit the mold of being in wealthy suburban neighborhoods that are consistently good year after year. There are also very wealthy schools that you would expect to do better that struggle year after year.
I want to point out that in your original message you talk about the GE subscore in BOA and relate it to money for props, etc. and I think this is a false relation that we need to be careful not to go into. The judges aren't scoring bands based on how cool or fancy their props are, they are scoring on execution and how that leads to a great overall effect (mostly in music, though there is a visual ge score as well). There is a component of design involved here but it has more to do with lining up drill sets with climactic or exciting musical phrases and then executing them in a way that causes a strong effect.
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Post by hewhowaits on Aug 8, 2022 5:55:38 GMT -6
However the culture of a region in regards to music education also has a huge influence. There are a number of schools that do not fit the mold of being in wealthy suburban neighborhoods that are consistently good year after year. There are also very wealthy schools that you would expect to do better that struggle year after year. A great example of music education culture being a huge factor is Texas. Yes, some of the highly successful bands are from relatively affluent areas, but some heavy hitters are from areas with less resources. I often complain about on-field dynamics from Texas groups (Texas Loud) but there is no denying the musical quality the state produces. Anybody here that hasn't heard the concert bands from schools all over Texas is definitely missing out on a great listening experience. |
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Post by paddy on Aug 8, 2022 8:57:37 GMT -6
The wealth of students and the surrounding community is certainly a non-negligible influence on performance but it's not really that simple. There is a perfect example of it not being that simple in Indiana and that is Fishers HS and Hamilton Southeastern HS. These are 2 schools in the same school district with nearly identical demographics (one of the wealthiest areas of the state) with 2 very different programs. Hamilton Southeastern has never made a state marching band finals in their 50+ years of existence. They have had limited winter percussion or guard accolades/awards. They are moderately successful in concert band and orchestra state contest. Fishers HS didn't exist until 2006/07 as a full 9-12 building. In those 15 years (really the last 5-6 as they have gotten serious about competing) they have made state finals 5 times, and a multiple time BOA GN semifinalist. They have won 3 WGI Championships (1 guard Open, 2 Percussion Concert World) and have multiple WGI finalists. They are more successful in the last 5 years in concert and orchestra state contests. Money and demographics aren't the difference between those 2 programs. |
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Post by philodemus on Aug 8, 2022 9:04:24 GMT -6
Multiple things can be true simultaneously.
Money is an extremely important factor in the success of a program.
Money is not the only factor in the success of a program.
And, I would submit, it depends on how one is defining success. There are probably many levels and types of success that can be achieved without gigantic budgets... but if one takes, say, making Grand National Finals as the goal then I think we should admit to ourselves that no, that is not achievable in 2022 without a gigantic budget. Full stop.
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Post by dbdbdb on Aug 9, 2022 11:53:37 GMT -6
It takes money for any marching band to be successful. Uniforms, travel costs, instruments, staff salaries, etc. are not cheap. Many bands spend "gigantic budgets" and don't attempt Grand Nationals. In fact, out of thousands of marching bands in the US, only ~100 compete. I seriously doubt that all 100 are the richest bands (I know our band is definitely not), and other non-GN bands travel big, compete in other competitions, have incredible shows, and spend mega-bucks. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that the bands who make it to Finals are special for other reasons beyond money. Their students put in the work, their music education staff have the passion, their parents volunteer, and their hometowns show support. Saying that the goal is not achievable without gigantic budgets is like saying that all Harvard graduates come from wealthy backgrounds.
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Post by marimba11 on Aug 9, 2022 13:01:07 GMT -6
Staff is everything. I know plenty of "wealthy" communities than cannot get it together
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Post by vidal28rdg on Aug 9, 2022 13:15:23 GMT -6
Staff is everything. I know plenty of "wealthy" communities than cannot get it together Money is a way for bands to attain that competent to airtight crafted talented staff, but it is true for sure, either you have that staff or you don’t. Down to the middle school level as they’re able to set up the kids with the right habits and teach the students pedagogically to be successful both individually and as an ensemble, even with lesser resources than a school in a wealthier community this is the case. Culture-building also plays a role. dependability, trust, accountability, responsibility, humanity and decency towards your peers. It takes a ton for a unit as big as marching band to be successful. |
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Post by supersound on Aug 9, 2022 14:11:12 GMT -6
I think Lake Travis is a very interesting example, extremely wealthy area but up until 2018 their band program was lackluster.
Something definitely shifted in 2018 because they suddenly started being very competitive, only improving into 2019 and 2021.
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Post by philodemus on Aug 9, 2022 15:38:45 GMT -6
How about this...
Money is necessary, but not sufficient.
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Post by lostchoirguy on Aug 9, 2022 17:08:23 GMT -6
There are plenty of examples of wealthy bands that are not as competitively successful.
However I would argue that there are also many bands that aren't wealthy that ARE successful. Think about how strong the bands are in the rural Midwest. I know in Texas, we have talked about groups like Duncanville, North Shore, and Haltom in the past. All have strong support from the community and band is an important part of the school's identity so despite a large number of the students coming from low income families, they are successful year after year.
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Post by marimba11 on Aug 9, 2022 22:00:48 GMT -6
There are plenty of examples of wealthy bands that are not as competitively successful. However I would argue that there are also many bands that aren't wealthy that ARE successful. Think about how strong the bands are in the rural Midwest. I know in Texas, we have talked about groups like Duncanville, North Shore, and Haltom in the past. All have strong support from the community and band is an important part of the school's identity so despite a large number of the students coming from low income families, they are successful year after year. Yep! |
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Post by boahistorybuff on Aug 10, 2022 3:13:48 GMT -6
I would say that two of the biggest factors are 1. Directors, instructors, students, parents and a school district that want to put in the time and effort to have a competitive marching band and want to place emphasis on music education down to the elementary level and 2. the school district, community and parents need to have the economic means to fund it.
I have seen many programs over the years who wanted to keep their legacy competitive marching band but lost the economic means to fund it or the loss of funding had disastrous effects on the band program.
My high school band program, Flushing MI, knows very well of the importance of funding. Michigan schools rely a lot on tax revenue within the individual school districts to maintain certain levels of service. We have had many great programs in our state falter because a loss in tax revenue forced the district to make cuts. In the 1970s and early 1980s Flushing was the top band in Michigan and was runner up to the Grand National title twice, 1979 and 1980. In 1982, our district was in a dire financial situation. A tax hike proposal (called a millage increase) was brought to the voters and it failed. The district had no choice but to make substantial cuts across the board. For the music department, the cuts involved the elimination of the elementary band program and anyone in junior and senior high that wanted to be in concert and marching band had to pay to be in those programs. Flushing is a middle class income community, not a wealthy one. So many kids dropped out of band because their parents could not afford the cost. The only thing that kept the marching band going was the commitment of our directors and parent run booster organization. While they kept the marching band alive, the size of the band and quality tanked as we just could not pay the number of instructors as the band had prior to the cuts. A tax increase proposal in 1985 passed and the pay to play was eliminated and the elementary band program was brought back. However, the amount of money to spend on the program that was done in the late 70s was just not there. We were able to have a modest comeback in the late 80s/early 90s as we rebuilt the program. My senior year in the program (1991) we boosted our fundraising to hire a nationally acclaimed designer and a couple notable music arrangers and managed to get into GN Finals. The band program was not able to keep up with that level of funding in subsequent years and the cost of putting forth a GN Finals worthy show has done nothing but increase over the years. Over the last 25 years, Flushing has been a small (less than 100 members) marching band but still remain competitive in MCBA. The long history of the competitive marching band keeps the students and community vested in the program. The school district supports the program as much as it can. However, the money that would bring the program up to even be of Grand National Semi Finals caliber is just not there and I don't think it ever will be again. So I think that they are about as successful as they can be with their current funding levels which is and has been a Flight II state finalist band, but certainly no longer competitive with bands like Jenison or PCEP as we once were.
There was a time that the Flint and Saginaw areas of Michigan had among the best bands in the state and across the country. Many of these programs suffered from financial cuts. In addition to my band Flushing, some of the others include:
Bridgeport (a Grand National Finalist in the 1970s), funding cuts wiped out the marching band in the mid 1980s.
Flint Northern (state runner up in 1980), also had funding cuts that eliminated the marching band.
Montrose (multiple Flight II and III State Titles in the 1980s), got wiped out with funding cuts.
Other Flint/Saginaw area greats from the past that have had ups and downs due to funding include:
Clio, Chesaning and Durand.
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Post by ohioguy2 on Aug 10, 2022 9:43:54 GMT -6
There are plenty of examples of wealthy bands that are not as competitively successful. However I would argue that there are also many bands that aren't wealthy that ARE successful. Think about how strong the bands are in the rural Midwest. I know in Texas, we have talked about groups like Duncanville, North Shore, and Haltom in the past. All have strong support from the community and band is an important part of the school's identity so despite a large number of the students coming from low income families, they are successful year after year. I think there are some people on here that have a far differing view of what "wealthy" means vs. some other people. For example, while Duncanville might not be as affluent as some of the other large suburbs in Texas, the median income in Duncanville is almost twice the national average. In addition, a quick perusal of the Duncanville band website yields the name of FOURTEEN full-time band directors gathering full salaries and benefits. There might be many low-income students in that program, but any way you slice it, that is a "wealthy" program, and if you don't think it is, then you're truly lacking perspective on what the median program is across the country. |
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Post by bandalum15 on Aug 10, 2022 10:19:59 GMT -6
The wealth of students and the surrounding community is certainly a non-negligible influence on performance but it's not really that simple. There is a perfect example of it not being that simple in Indiana and that is Fishers HS and Hamilton Southeastern HS. These are 2 schools in the same school district with nearly identical demographics (one of the wealthiest areas of the state) with 2 very different programs. Hamilton Southeastern has never made a state marching band finals in their 50+ years of existence. They have had limited winter percussion or guard accolades/awards. They are moderately successful in concert band and orchestra state contest. Fishers HS didn't exist until 2006/07 as a full 9-12 building. In those 15 years (really the last 5-6 as they have gotten serious about competing) they have made state finals 5 times, and a multiple time BOA GN semifinalist. They have won 3 WGI Championships (1 guard Open, 2 Percussion Concert World) and have multiple WGI finalists. They are more successful in the last 5 years in concert and orchestra state contests. Money and demographics aren't the difference between those 2 programs. I think the Hamilton Southeastern school district has open enrollment too. Which means that students in that district can choose to attend either school. If you're interested in band you'll be choosing Fishers. Under this scenario I don't see any way that Hamilton Southeastern HS could ever compete with Fishers. It's possible that I'm misinformed about this though. |
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Post by bandaid on Aug 10, 2022 10:24:41 GMT -6
100% this! I know a Class A band in Indiana that has a revolving door when it comes to staff. They actually lost staff to another Class A band in the same county. Staff is everything. I know plenty of "wealthy" communities than cannot get it together |
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Post by paddy on Aug 10, 2022 11:30:00 GMT -6
There is a perfect example of it not being that simple in Indiana and that is Fishers HS and Hamilton Southeastern HS. These are 2 schools in the same school district with nearly identical demographics (one of the wealthiest areas of the state) with 2 very different programs. Hamilton Southeastern has never made a state marching band finals in their 50+ years of existence. They have had limited winter percussion or guard accolades/awards. They are moderately successful in concert band and orchestra state contest. Fishers HS didn't exist until 2006/07 as a full 9-12 building. In those 15 years (really the last 5-6 as they have gotten serious about competing) they have made state finals 5 times, and a multiple time BOA GN semifinalist. They have won 3 WGI Championships (1 guard Open, 2 Percussion Concert World) and have multiple WGI finalists. They are more successful in the last 5 years in concert and orchestra state contests. Money and demographics aren't the difference between those 2 programs. I think the Hamilton Southeastern school district has open enrollment too. Which means that students in that district can choose to attend either school. If you're interested in band you'll be choosing Fishers. Under this scenario I don't see any way that Hamilton Southeastern HS could ever compete with Fishers. It's possible that I'm misinformed about this though. They do and that exacerbates the issue today. However, my point was they both had the demographics to be successful so it isn't just about wealth and demographics. |
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Post by Marching Observer on Aug 10, 2022 11:38:08 GMT -6
I've seen movement within HSE that they are really trying to push the band up and making strides to become as competitive as their sister school but that is going to take a bit of time. No school can rocket to the top in one year after all. But each step is a step. 😊
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Post by lostchoirguy on Aug 10, 2022 11:54:07 GMT -6
There are plenty of examples of wealthy bands that are not as competitively successful. However I would argue that there are also many bands that aren't wealthy that ARE successful. Think about how strong the bands are in the rural Midwest. I know in Texas, we have talked about groups like Duncanville, North Shore, and Haltom in the past. All have strong support from the community and band is an important part of the school's identity so despite a large number of the students coming from low income families, they are successful year after year. I think there are some people on here that have a far differing view of what "wealthy" means vs. some other people. For example, while Duncanville might not be as affluent as some of the other large suburbs in Texas, the median income in Duncanville is almost twice the national average. In addition, a quick perusal of the Duncanville band website yields the name of FOURTEEN full-time band directors gathering full salaries and benefits. There might be many low-income students in that program, but any way you slice it, that is a "wealthy" program, and if you don't think it is, then you're truly lacking perspective on what the median program is across the country. I was just bringing up schools that I've heard discussed in the past. I know nothing about the actual demographics of these areas except what I can recall from former conversations. |
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Post by supersound on Aug 10, 2022 13:38:05 GMT -6
There is also the question of demographics, not just with income and wealth of the area but in diversity and racial makeup.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Aug 10, 2022 15:51:25 GMT -6
There are plenty of examples of wealthy bands that are not as competitively successful. However I would argue that there are also many bands that aren't wealthy that ARE successful. Think about how strong the bands are in the rural Midwest. I know in Texas, we have talked about groups like Duncanville, North Shore, and Haltom in the past. All have strong support from the community and band is an important part of the school's identity so despite a large number of the students coming from low income families, they are successful year after year. I think there are some people on here that have a far differing view of what "wealthy" means vs. some other people. For example, while Duncanville might not be as affluent as some of the other large suburbs in Texas, the median income in Duncanville is almost twice the national average. In addition, a quick perusal of the Duncanville band website yields the name of FOURTEEN full-time band directors gathering full salaries and benefits. There might be many low-income students in that program, but any way you slice it, that is a "wealthy" program, and if you don't think it is, then you're truly lacking perspective on what the median program is across the country. Just wanted to correct that Duncanville stat. The entire D’ville district has 14 directors which includes middle schools. 🥰 |
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Post by ohioguy2 on Aug 10, 2022 16:58:29 GMT -6
I think there are some people on here that have a far differing view of what "wealthy" means vs. some other people. For example, while Duncanville might not be as affluent as some of the other large suburbs in Texas, the median income in Duncanville is almost twice the national average. In addition, a quick perusal of the Duncanville band website yields the name of FOURTEEN full-time band directors gathering full salaries and benefits. There might be many low-income students in that program, but any way you slice it, that is a "wealthy" program, and if you don't think it is, then you're truly lacking perspective on what the median program is across the country. Just wanted to correct that Duncanville stat. The entire D’ville district has 14 directors which includes middle schools. 🥰 Correct, the Duncanville program has 14 full-time band directors. A whole lot of programs are fortunate if they have 2-3 (including middle school). That was my point. |
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Post by vidal28rdg on Aug 10, 2022 17:02:59 GMT -6
I think there are some people on here that have a far differing view of what "wealthy" means vs. some other people. For example, while Duncanville might not be as affluent as some of the other large suburbs in Texas, the median income in Duncanville is almost twice the national average. In addition, a quick perusal of the Duncanville band website yields the name of FOURTEEN full-time band directors gathering full salaries and benefits. There might be many low-income students in that program, but any way you slice it, that is a "wealthy" program, and if you don't think it is, then you're truly lacking perspective on what the median program is across the country. Just wanted to correct that Duncanville stat. The entire D’ville district has 14 directors which includes middle schools. 🥰 I also wouldn’t say Duncanville is a large suburb, either by Texas or other state’s standards. The population of the city is just under 40,000, it’s more like small-medium. DFW has about 30 cities/towns with more folks than Duncanville, just to put it in perspective www.hdavidballinger.com/dallas-suburbs.phpThis site has a list and some details for each city, not too comprehensive, but for those that wanna know a bit more haha |
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Post by ilikeguard on Aug 10, 2022 18:08:10 GMT -6
I’m sure plenty of you have heard me talk about being in a medium successful band from a pretty poor area by now. Or maybe you’ve seen the Netflix series Ozark and can gather from there 😆
My two cents on this topic is the neutralist standpoint: that demographics matter a whole lot, but the way that the district chooses to allocate funds and the directors’ staffing decisions are equally if not more important. In my experience, we had pretty much the whole Cartwright Crew™️, as well as some DCI alum assistance (which is now far more from when I was a student). This was incredibly expensive (re: that other thread about show costs). The thing about the Lake, as I’m sure is a similar situation with any area that gets its money from the tourism industry, is that we had a very high rate of income inequality. While there were certainly a few students whose parents could easily write a $1200 check per kid, the vast majority of students paid entirely through fundraisers and donations, with many never paying back their debts at all. There always seemed to be an anonymous donation that helped them out. Despite there being a lot of pressure to break even every year, the directors never opted for a cheaper design book- I don’t know if that’s a good or a bad thing. As a student, though, it was an opportunity to be around high quality groups nationwide whose financial brackets meant that we wouldn’t meet them in any other sort of activity naturally.
I think this must be the rationale for many bands in a similar and someone strenuous financial situation- the rewards of the product justified the means, even if the means were not there as easily to begin with as some more affluently located schools. It’s easier to be good when you have a higher income demographic, and yet there will always be those without the natural leg up who will do it anyways.
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Post by Momof20613 on Aug 11, 2022 5:43:30 GMT -6
There are plenty of examples of wealthy bands that are not as competitively successful. However I would argue that there are also many bands that aren't wealthy that ARE successful. Think about how strong the bands are in the rural Midwest. I know in Texas, we have talked about groups like Duncanville, North Shore, and Haltom in the past. All have strong support from the community and band is an important part of the school's identity so despite a large number of the students coming from low income families, they are successful year after year. I went to Haltom, and while it’s been 22 years since I graduated, the school is still in the same location. Unless something has changed dramatically, It’s not particularly affluent, but it’s not particularly low income either. I’d say it is very average with poverty stricken pockets of the district and fairly affluent pockets. When I was there I think the band was on an upswing that carried them for quite a few years. The director had a lot to do with it at that point. David Bertman left Haltom some time later and is now the director of the whole music department at the University of Houston now, I believe. Interestingly Birdville High School opened when I was a junior and it has become the best band in the district by far. Richland High School, the third high school in the district seems to have fallen off the map entirely, but Haltom and Richland were about even in competitiveness when I was there. Out of all 3 schools I would say Haltom is the lowest income wise, with Birdville and Richland maybe being about even. That makes me think success can’t be only about money. Also, it’s definitely not rural. It’s in a sea of suburbs surrounding Ft Worth and is a 6A school. |
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Post by principalagent on Aug 11, 2022 7:45:57 GMT -6
Just wanted to correct that Duncanville stat. The entire D’ville district has 14 directors which includes middle schools. 🥰 I also wouldn’t say Duncanville is a large suburb, either by Texas or other state’s standards. The population of the city is just under 40,000, it’s more like small-medium. DFW has about 30 cities/towns with more folks than Duncanville, just to put it in perspective www.hdavidballinger.com/dallas-suburbs.phpThis site has a list and some details for each city, not too comprehensive, but for those that wanna know a bit more haha Also, Duncanville’s median household income is about 60k. That’s actually around 10-15% less than the country’s median household income, and about 5k less than the same figure for the state of Texas. Not to discount Duncanville’s legacy which has led to some baked-in advantages (like the large amount of directors). But it’s not Coppell. My general thought here is that there’s an affluence inflection point. The best programs tend to be in large suburbs with upper middle class families in largely professional or entrepreneurial careers. Carmel, Mt Pleasant, Chino Hills, Flower Mound, and (at its best) Kennesaw/Marietta are all great examples. But the mega rich, but smaller and more exclusive suburbs and their schools don’t seem to hit the same mark. There might be a reason why we talk about Mason but not Indian Hill, Reagan but not Alamo Heights, or until recently, Marcus instead of Highland Park. I haven’t exactly teased out why sociologically, but it seems to hold—unless the community makes a large push like at Highland Park. But even their program is still pretty tiny compared to the top bands in UIL 5A right now—many with numbers on the field indistinguishable from 6As. |
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Post by paddy on Aug 11, 2022 8:06:29 GMT -6
Carmel and Zionsville in Indiana. Right next door to each other 2 very different results. |
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Post by hewhowaits on Aug 11, 2022 8:26:43 GMT -6
But the mega rich, but smaller and more exclusive suburbs and their schools don’t seem to hit the same mark. There might be a reason why we talk about Mason but not Indian Hill, Size also matters. Indian Hill is where many Procter & Gamble executives live, along with Bengals and Reds players and coaches but the school district is quite small. Mason has the size to be able to take advantage of the financial resources available. |
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Post by principalagent on Aug 11, 2022 8:43:04 GMT -6
But the mega rich, but smaller and more exclusive suburbs and their schools don’t seem to hit the same mark. There might be a reason why we talk about Mason but not Indian Hill, Size also matters. Indian Hill is where many Procter & Gamble executives live, along with Bengals and Reds players and coaches but the school district is quite small. Mason has the size to be able to take advantage of the financial resources available. Also true with Highland Park and Alamo Heights! They’re smaller yet extraordinarily more wealthy, with relatively smaller schools too. |
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Post by Marching Observer on Aug 16, 2022 16:32:45 GMT -6
Carmel and Zionsville in Indiana. Right next door to each other 2 very different results. I feel you could also include Westfield and Fishers right on in there too. |
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