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Post by philodemus on Mar 20, 2023 14:24:51 GMT -6
I remain excited about the possibilities of Indoor Winds... but less excited about the current reality of Indoor Winds.
I feel like Indoor Percussion developed lots of new and interesting ideas that later moved outside and made the entire world of the marching arts richer. It seems to me that Winds, in theory, should be able to do the same, but so far groups seem married to 'it's a tiny marching band.' They need to realize, as the Percussion folks did years ago, that moving inside completely changes the very idea of visual performance. You have to throw out the outdoor rules and try new stuff.
To be fair, there have been groups that trended in that direction: Rhythm X Winds were great but have apparently folded, Stryke has tried some interesting things, Aimachi was phenomenal back at the very beginning of Winds... and UTRGV Winds were profoundly, truly moving and more people need to go find the illegal YouTube recordings that definitely do not exist and watch them right now.
But... those groups remain in the minority. Most of what you see is... well... disappointing.
Not giving up yet, but I had hoped the Winds activity would have come into its own more quickly.
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Post by paddy on Mar 20, 2023 15:38:13 GMT -6
I remain excited about the possibilities of Indoor Winds... but less excited about the current reality of Indoor Winds. I feel like Indoor Percussion developed lots of new and interesting ideas that later moved outside and made the entire world of the marching arts richer. It seems to me that Winds, in theory, should be able to do the same, but so far groups seem married to 'it's a tiny marching band.' They need to realize, as the Percussion folks did years ago, that moving inside completely changes the very idea of visual performance. You have to throw out the outdoor rules and try new stuff. To be fair, there have been groups that trended in that direction: Rhythm X Winds were great but have apparently folded, Stryke has tried some interesting things, Aimachi was phenomenal back at the very beginning of Winds... and UTRGV Winds were profoundly, truly moving and more people need to go find the illegal YouTube recordings that definitely do not exist and watch them right now. But... those groups remain in the minority. Most of what you see is... well... disappointing. Not giving up yet, but I had hoped the Winds activity would have come into its own more quickly. Unfortunately, the inconsistency of approach by the judges hampers some of that process.
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Post by josephbandfan on Mar 20, 2023 19:51:08 GMT -6
In addition to marching and concert, I’d imagine it’d be difficult having to allot more time and funds to producing shows for indoor winds, percussion, and guard. The students at Avon really are lucky that the program fields shows for each of those divisions. And I believe they get to attend championships each year.
As far as I know in terms of Texas, none of the top groups have indoor wind programs. I think Keller central is probably the most notable in regards to marching band, but I’m not even sure if they still have an indoor group. Hope more schools explore the idea in the future as I would love to see what it would grow into.
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Post by Subito Fortissimo on Mar 20, 2023 19:58:41 GMT -6
Getting towards the end of my first season of teaching indoor winds and having attended my first WGI Winds regional this past weekend I can wholeheartedly recommend it. It's a lot of fun! I understand why a lot of directors are against it but a lot of programs have the potential for it to pay big dividends for their Fall marching band. It also can create a great opportunity for smaller, less affluent programs to feel like the competitive playing field is a little more even compared to how it is in the Fall.
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Post by paddy on Mar 20, 2023 20:52:37 GMT -6
In addition to marching and concert, I’d imagine it’d be difficult having to allot more time and funds to producing shows for indoor winds, percussion, and guard. The students at Avon really are lucky that the program fields shows for each of those divisions. And I believe they get to attend championships each year. A few of the Indiana programs field all 3 and Avon and Greenfield field multiple guards. I think Kokomo and Lake Central have all 3 as well. I was talking to another Indiana director with a winds group and they decided to switch to winds instead of percussion. The percussion kids are part of the winds group on their percussion instruments. They said the only way to field a winter percussion group was to have their wind instrumentalists switch to percussion for winter and that was not as productive as everyone playing their primary instruments. As a spectator I prefer winds to percussion. I also believe that opportunities to provide kids more competitive pageantry arts outlets is beneficial to them and the program.
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Post by philodemus on Mar 21, 2023 5:01:18 GMT -6
You know, a very real issue for fielding all of the various indoor ensembles is just gym space… particularly during basketball season. Avon must have access to just a while ton of gymnasiums.
As an aside, I’ve long suspected California to have a leg up in indoor percussion in that they can so often drum outside in December and January. This don’t work in, say, Minnesota.
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Post by paddy on Mar 21, 2023 8:02:29 GMT -6
You know, a very real issue for fielding all of the various indoor ensembles is just gym space… particularly during basketball season. Avon must have access to just a while ton of gymnasiums. As an aside, I’ve long suspected California to have a leg up in indoor percussion in that they can so often drum outside in December and January. This don’t work in, say, Minnesota. Having been in both Avon and Greenfield high schools for contests they do have lots of gym space (main competition gym and 3 court field houses) but more importantly they have band halls big enough to accommodate an indoor group with full tarp pulled out. Greenfield’s band hall is tall enough for their guard to practice in as well. They also have auxiliary spaces to run sectional rehearsals. Avon even has an upper observation deck for directors.
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Post by philodemus on Mar 21, 2023 8:51:43 GMT -6
That picture is ringing some deeply buried bell in the back of my head... perhaps I've been in Avon at some point, too? Corps housing, percussion show... something.
But, on topic: yep, that's gigantic advantage. In my neck of the woods, many of the schools have a main gym... and that's it. Some have an 'auxiliary' gym as well, but that's about as far as it goes. Then you throw in boys and girls basketball, both with varsity and junior varsity, and every other sport wanting the space for off season conditioning... even archery [curse you Katniss!] wanting space to shoot.
Winterguards and indoor percussion groups usually end up rehearsing late at night, if they can get in at all.
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Post by 70sguardchick on Mar 21, 2023 9:07:43 GMT -6
You know, a very real issue for fielding all of the various indoor ensembles is just gym space… particularly during basketball season. Avon must have access to just a while ton of gymnasiums. As an aside, I’ve long suspected California to have a leg up in indoor percussion in that they can so often drum outside in December and January. This don’t work in, say, Minnesota. Having been in both Avon and Greenfield high schools for contests they do have lots of gym space (main competition gym and 3 court field houses) but more importantly they have band halls big enough to accommodate an indoor group with full tarp pulled out. Greenfield’s band hall is tall enough for their guard to practice in as well. They also have auxiliary spaces to run sectional rehearsals. Avon even has an upper observation deck for directors. Brownsburg's "big band room" is very similar, along with an area that would be just off to the left of this for prop storage and construction. There's also a concert band classroom with individual practice rooms and a room for percussion and guard storage. There are plans to build a fieldhouse down the road.
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Post by cybrunette on Mar 21, 2023 10:02:44 GMT -6
That picture is ringing some deeply buried bell in the back of my head... perhaps I've been in Avon at some point, too? Corps housing, percussion show... something. But, on topic: yep, that's gigantic advantage. In my neck of the woods, many of the schools have a main gym... and that's it. Some have an 'auxiliary' gym as well, but that's about as far as it goes. Then you throw in boys and girls basketball, both with varsity and junior varsity, and every other sport wanting the space for off season conditioning... even archery [curse you Katniss!] wanting space to shoot. Winterguards and indoor percussion groups usually end up rehearsing late at night, if they can get in at all. The high school I went to we would just practice in the cafeteria for winter guard & I know a lot of the schools around would as well. I know not all schools even have a large enough cafeteria, but it may answer why a lot of other schools that don't get the opportunity to use the gym or even their band room still get a lot of practice time in.
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Post by nd on Mar 21, 2023 12:19:06 GMT -6
I have connections to Greenfield-Central and they are benefitting from 3 (1 about a decade ago, 1 three years ago, and 1 current) projects that impact their performing arts areas. Project 1 - The school expanded classrooms and built a new natatorium. They converted the old pool area into their current main band room Project 2 - Weight room, athletic training office and locker room expansion. They added on a new wing to house the aforementioned spaces and converted that into a new large ensemble room, a percussion studio and added a new hallway that connected all the spaces. You can see parts of it here: sites.google.com/gcbands.org/gcbands/home/2020-building-projectProject 3 - Currently under construction is a new 1400 seat auditorium with new atrium that connects back to the main gym. You can see it here: sites.google.com/gcbands.org/gcbands/home/2022-building-project
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Post by srv1084 on Mar 21, 2023 22:05:47 GMT -6
I share the same sentiment as others that Indoor Winds hasn't played out as I had expected, but I do think it provides a valuable opportunity for smaller programs to continue receiving performance opportunities and year-round training. The upper divisions, however, have not pushed the boundaries or reached achievement levels that I was hoping to see. Avon has been one major exception. Their 2022 indoor winds show is everything that I've been hoping to see in this activity. That production was nearly flawless and one of the most entertaining shows I've seen across the performing arts. Of course, they did that with ~80 kids on the floor, and I suppose not every program is capable of having that much interest during the winter/spring.
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Post by paddy on Mar 21, 2023 23:20:32 GMT -6
Just a reminder, Winds as an activity is now 8 years old, with 2 years lost to Covid. Also, participation is still pretty low. There were 11 groups at Indiana State prelims in all classes, and there were 12 Open Class Percussion groups at IN state prelims.
I’m willing to give it time to flourish.
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Post by philodemus on Mar 22, 2023 7:12:41 GMT -6
I have connections to Greenfield-Central and they are benefitting from 3 (1 about a decade ago, 1 three years ago, and 1 current) projects that impact their performing arts areas. Project 1 - The school expanded classrooms and built a new natatorium. They converted the old pool area...Riiight about here is where I realized we were talking about a very different level of funding than I'm used to! Not hating on wealthy schools at all, I think a community that has done well and wants to spend lavishly on its kids has every right to do so. Just saying 'owning a pool' is mind-bogglingly rich where I come from, much less, 'the old pool isn't cutting it, let's get a better pool'!
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Post by philodemus on Mar 22, 2023 7:27:03 GMT -6
Just a reminder, Winds as an activity is now 8 years old, with 2 years lost to Covid. Also, participation is still pretty low. There were 11 groups at Indiana State prelims in all classes, and there were 12 Open Class Percussion groups at IN state prelims. I’m willing to give it time to flourish. This is 100% correct... like I said, I'm not giving up on the notion, I had just hoped--probably forlornly--that it wouldn't take quite so long to come into its own. One thing I think is interesting about watching it develop is that there has already been so much experimentation, and WGI has left things very open-ended so that the performing groups can try stuff. At first, you saw a lot more groups with tiny guards and tiny pit percussion and even tiny drumlines, and while I understand that directors were using it to try and develop their whole programs I don't think that was the most fruitful creative direction. Now, it seems like the trend is only horns and asking them to take on much more of the visual/choreographic interpretation themselves, and I feel like that will help us to develop new skill sets for brass and woodwinds. Though controversial in some circles, I also don't dislike the use of rhythmic backing tracks to keep time which seems to be the trend. To me, it's the converse of the way in which indoor percussion ensembles use prerecorded singing. That is, without horns, percussion needs help generating melodic interest, and without percussion, horns need help with pulse. I absolutely loved what Avon did last year, it was beautiful, but I'm not sure that's the direction the entire activity needs to take. Few groups can get 80 horns out on the floor, and even fewer can get 80 horns that I want to hear in a gymnasium out on the floor. Visually, the large, dense masses of people worked well for the concept they were portraying [Murmurations] but I'm not sure how many other concepts it works for. This was kind of rambling, but I guess my point is, I dig Indoor Winds and have enjoyed watching it develop... Let's just keep developing!
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Post by nd on Mar 22, 2023 7:34:08 GMT -6
I have connections to Greenfield-Central and they are benefitting from 3 (1 about a decade ago, 1 three years ago, and 1 current) projects that impact their performing arts areas. Project 1 - The school expanded classrooms and built a new natatorium. They converted the old pool area...Riiight about here is where I realized we were talking about a very different level of funding than I'm used to! Not hating on wealthy schools at all, I think a community that has done well and wants to spend lavishly on its kids has every right to do so. Just saying 'owning a pool' is mind-bogglingly rich where I come from, much less, 'the old pool isn't cutting it, let's get a better pool'! Greenfield is a pretty ordinary middle class school in Indiana. The Free and Reduced Lunch rate runs about 40%. Average Household Income is about $65k (compared to $94k for Avon, $109k for Fishers or $112k for Carmel) and poverty is about 12%. They have just been fortunate to have a strong commercial tax base and a community that values the arts. And "owning a pool" in Indiana schools is pretty common. I would say 80% of high schools in Indianan have a pool.
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Post by paddy on Mar 22, 2023 7:45:43 GMT -6
Just a reminder, Winds as an activity is now 8 years old, with 2 years lost to Covid. Also, participation is still pretty low. There were 11 groups at Indiana State prelims in all classes, and there were 12 Open Class Percussion groups at IN state prelims. I’m willing to give it time to flourish. This is 100% correct... like I said, I'm not giving up on the notion, I had just hoped--probably forlornly--that it wouldn't take quite so long to come into its own. One thing I think is interesting about watching it develop is that there has already been so much experimentation, and WGI has left things very open-ended so that the performing groups can try stuff. At first, you saw a lot more groups with tiny guards and tiny pit percussion and even tiny drumlines, and while I understand that directors were using it to try and develop their whole programs I don't think that was the most fruitful creative direction. Now, it seems like the trend is only horns and asking them to take on much more of the visual/choreographic interpretation themselves, and I feel like that will help us to develop new skill sets for brass and woodwinds. Though controversial in some circles, I also don't dislike the use of rhythmic backing tracks to keep time which seems to be the trend. To me, it's the converse of the way in which indoor percussion ensembles use prerecorded singing. That is, without horns, percussion needs help generating melodic interest, and without percussion, horns need help with pulse. I absolutely loved what Avon did last year, it was beautiful, but I'm not sure that's the direction the entire activity needs to take. Few groups can get 80 horns out on the floor, and even fewer can get 80 horns that I want to hear in a gymnasium out on the floor. Visually, the large, dense masses of people worked well for the concept they were portraying [Murmurations] but I'm not sure how many other concepts it works for. This was kind of rambling, but I guess my point is, I dig Indoor Winds and have enjoyed watching it develop... Let's just keep developing! I think there will always be a group of smaller schools that will use Winds as "indoor marching band" as way to improve their fall marching band, and I am ok with that. I am a bit concerned that *at times* the activity (read judges) is not concerned enough about the music performance component of the show and rewards the groups who are guards with instruments as props too much. I would much rather see high end musicianship with added production/movement as opposed to dancing while holding horns. I am also ok with shows that are more narrative (Cleveland's Joker show, Greenfield's Heist show) living in a space where other groups are more abstract (Avon's Murmuration or Summer Winds). At the end of the day, I want opportunities for kids to perform and improve more than fitting the activity into a preconceived box of "ideal".
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Post by crowncrawler on Mar 22, 2023 13:51:01 GMT -6
WGI should implement a limit for indoor winds group size. I’m thinking like 50 max. Groups like Avon are amazing but it’s not really a close battle when they’re marching 30+ more winds than everyone else
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Post by jeremiah on Mar 22, 2023 16:28:54 GMT -6
WGI should implement a limit for indoor winds group size. I’m thinking like 50 max. Groups like Avon are amazing but it’s not really a close battle when they’re marching 30+ more winds than everyone else This feels like a discussion for the winds discussion board, but it's an interesting idea to consider. You could theoretically adopt different maximums for different classes, allowing World class to field larger groups than A or Open. Guard currently does this. Here's the current break down: Guard is minimum 5; maximum 30 for A/Open, 40 for World Percussion is minimum 6; no maximum Winds is minimum 10; no maximum
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Post by Subito Fortissimo on Mar 22, 2023 20:21:20 GMT -6
I share the same sentiment as others that Indoor Winds hasn't played out as I had expected, but I do think it provides a valuable opportunity for smaller programs to continue receiving performance opportunities and year-round training. The upper divisions, however, have not pushed the boundaries or reached achievement levels that I was hoping to see. Avon has been one major exception. Their 2022 indoor winds show is everything that I've been hoping to see in this activity. That production was nearly flawless and one of the most entertaining shows I've seen across the performing arts. Of course, they did that with ~80 kids on the floor, and I suppose not every program is capable of having that much interest during the winter/spring. Check out Cleveland at world championships this year. They've really stepped up their difficulty and complexity in show design this year compared to previous years and are achieving it pretty well. Probably still not quite at Avon's level but they're definitely pushing to be a legitimate challenger. As far as the school I work with goes. We didn't even start throwing around the idea of doing indoor winds until mid-October and didn't fully pull the trigger on it until late December. From the staff side the motivation was what it could do to improve the Fall marching band through the extra training and fully focusing on the wind players in a marching arena, as well as just keeping the students engaged outside of their normal concert band classes. When we polled the students on their interest in participating the response was overwhelmingly in favor and in the end about 75% of the high school students from the Fall hornline ended up joining the winds group (we chose not to take middle school students who were in the Fall hornline). Of those not participating most of them are playing on a sports team, have an after school job or are in the Spring musical. I had many students tell me they were just happy to have something extracurricular to do during the Winter months and the fact that it was competitive was a bonus. Now nearly at the end of the season I think it has been a massive success for us in achieving our goals for fielding the ensemble. I do think that in a whole lot of programs, particularly larger ones, if they just offered indoor winds they would end up getting a lot of enthusiastic participation from their students. But I know a lot of directors take an "over my dead body" view of the whole thing which I think is a shame.
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Post by philodemus on Mar 23, 2023 8:06:08 GMT -6
Just to reiterate a point I am going to keep reiterating until I'm blue in the face about Indoor Winds: if you haven't seen UTRGV Winds 2022, you are missing out on one of the great marching arts shows of all time. In terms of emotional impact... it's stunning.
It's definitely NOT on YouTube... You definitely SHOULDN'T go there and search it right now. Right now.
Right this very minute.
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Post by paddy on Mar 23, 2023 8:37:26 GMT -6
Just to reiterate a point I am going to keep reiterating until I'm blue in the face about Indoor Winds: if you haven't seen UTRGV Winds 2022, you are missing out on one of the great marching arts shows of all time. In terms of emotional impact... it's stunning. It's definitely NOT on YouTube... You definitely SHOULDN'T go there and search it right now. Right now. Right this very minute. Great show. Very deep concept that is executed extremely well both technically and emotionally. Complex, nuanced, powerful, with beautiful music performed well. However, for you to be this excited about that show, while knocking Winds for not moving outside the "little indoor marching band" design paradigm, is interesting. It was literally a marching band show in song choice, drill design, prop use and staging. I mean they had a company front and a high step march move. Please understand that I say the preceding in context of the conversation in this thread about where people see the activity going and where they want it to go. Also, Jeremiah is right and we should probably move a chunk of this thread to the Winds forum...
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Post by philodemus on Mar 23, 2023 13:11:26 GMT -6
Just to reiterate a point I am going to keep reiterating until I'm blue in the face about Indoor Winds: if you haven't seen UTRGV Winds 2022, you are missing out on one of the great marching arts shows of all time. In terms of emotional impact... it's stunning. It's definitely NOT on YouTube... You definitely SHOULDN'T go there and search it right now. Right now. Right this very minute. Great show. Very deep concept that is executed extremely well both technically and emotionally. Complex, nuanced, powerful, with beautiful music performed well. However, for you to be this excited about that show, while knocking Winds for not moving outside the "little indoor marching band" design paradigm, is interesting. It was literally a marching band show in song choice, drill design, prop use and staging. I mean they had a company front and a high step march move. Please understand that I say the preceding in context of the conversation in this thread about where people see the activity going and where they want it to go. Also, Jeremiah is right and we should probably move a chunk of this thread to the Winds forum... Interesting observation! Let me agree with you partially, but also partially disagree. You're right, they didn't really explore anything totally new, and they did have the pit percussion. In that sense, very 'tiny marching band.' I would, however, argue that the percussion didn't really add anything that a backing track couldn't have provided. I never really noticed them, and they certainly never took the focus. From a visual perspective, all of the choreographic responsibility was on the horns, and you didn't see too much in the way of 'just marching,' everything was choregraphed unless playing, and even then it was usually choreographed as well. The company front and high step were, of course, very traditional methods, but they were used in a way that was almost subversive, in the best possible sense of that word. At a more abstract level, I'm not sure there's a contradiction in saying, "I prefer X genre, but this was a stunningly good example of Y genre." At an even more 'meta' level, I personally would prefer we not move this portion of the thread for the simple reason that no one ever goes into the Winds Forum and here more folks are likely to read and join in... But I get that some folks like a tightly run ship.
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Post by hewhowaits on Mar 23, 2023 13:22:44 GMT -6
At an even more 'meta' level, I personally would prefer we not move this portion of the thread for the simple reason that no one ever goes into the Winds Forum and here more folks are likely to read and join in... But I get that some folks like a tightly run ship. As one of those with the ability to move portions of the discussion to a separate thread in a different location, I thought about moving it several times but I keep coming back to this thought and leaving it where it is.
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Post by aiden on Aug 1, 2023 7:08:48 GMT -6
What do you think would've happened if Hebron and Vandegrift had gone to grand nationals in 2021?
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Post by ilikeguard on Aug 1, 2023 10:41:33 GMT -6
What do you think would've happened if Hebron and Vandegrift had gone to grand nationals in 2021? I'd still put BA on top. That show is practically flawless. Hebron might take the music caption (like Flower Mound did), but BA has GE all the way. No one was even CLOSE to them in GE in finals. I think you'd see Hebron and Vandegrift both around the 3rd-5th range. I don't think either would have beat Carmel that year, but as always it's impossible to tell when they aren't at the same contest together.
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ccbop
Senior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by ccbop on Aug 1, 2023 20:44:24 GMT -6
What if every band that had been in Grand Nationals Finals before didn’t go for one year? What would be the top score? Who would it from? Who would win each class?
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