UIL Revamp

[nategriffin]

So UIL is meeting in May to discuss the rule changes that they decided on in fall which I think are all mostly good, but I want to hear what other people think on the potential changes that could be coming, the ones that pop out at me are:
4. Competition suite at region contests
5. Top/Bottom half draw for area finals
8. Amending the penalty for exceeding 8 minute rule at region
9. Allow amplification of ensembles using open mics
10. Utilize the 7 judge system at 5A/6A area contests
11. Reconfigure the 5 judge system into WW, Brass, Perc., Visual Ens., and Visual Ind.
12. Eliminate or expand the 10 hour limit on visual fundamentals prior to August 1st
13. Advance all bands with ordinal ties for the final advancement placement to the state contest
17. Modify the point structure on the woodwind, brass, and percussion judge sheets in the 7-judge system

[lostchoirguy]

Jan 24, 2023 11:44:24 GMT -6 nategriffin said:

So UIL is meeting in May to discuss the rule changes that they decided on in fall which I think are all mostly good, but I want to hear what other people think on the potential changes that could be coming, the ones that pop out at me are:
4. Competition suite at region contests
5. Top/Bottom half draw for area finals
8. Amending the penalty for exceeding 8 minute rule at region
9. Allow amplification of ensembles using open mics
10. Utilize the 7 judge system at 5A/6A area contests
11. Reconfigure the 5 judge system into WW, Brass, Perc., Visual Ens., and Visual Ind.
12. Eliminate or expand the 10 hour limit on visual fundamentals prior to August 1st
13. Advance all bands with ordinal ties for the final advancement placement to the state contest
17. Modify the point structure on the woodwind, brass, and percussion judge sheets in the 7-judge system

I'm particularly hopeful for number 8 and 13, which should have already been in place in my opinion.

The use of mics is always an interesting topic. I don't necessarily have an opinion about it, but I know others feel strongly about it.

7 judges for area in 5A and 6A competitions is going to be difficult because of the number of judges needed, but I still like it because it doesn't change the metric for success from area to state.

[vidal28rdg]

Jan 24, 2023 11:44:24 GMT -6 nategriffin said:

So UIL is meeting in May to discuss the rule changes that they decided on in fall which I think are all mostly good, but I want to hear what other people think on the potential changes that could be coming, the ones that pop out at me are:
4. Competition suite at region contests
5. Top/Bottom half draw for area finals
8. Amending the penalty for exceeding 8 minute rule at region
9. Allow amplification of ensembles using open mics
10. Utilize the 7 judge system at 5A/6A area contests
11. Reconfigure the 5 judge system into WW, Brass, Perc., Visual Ens., and Visual Ind.
12. Eliminate or expand the 10 hour limit on visual fundamentals prior to August 1st
13. Advance all bands with ordinal ties for the final advancement placement to the state contest
17. Modify the point structure on the woodwind, brass, and percussion judge sheets in the 7-judge system

Rules 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 17 are very welcome changes, judge’s preference gave me so much of an “away goals” rule vibe where no one leaves happy that two bands(or more potentially) tied, and only one gets to move on. Give bands more time to work on visual fundies!! Great!! And making the judging more specified and emphasizing the performance aspects, that is great too! Make the judging for Area like you would for the final state competition.

[LeanderMomma]

Here’s the full list of proposed rule changes:

1. Proposal to change the clock structure to 4 minutes/9 minutes/2 minutes
2. Proposal for front ensembles to be permitted to pre-stage during the prior band’s setup
3. Proposal for bands to be permitted to pre-stage during the three minutes prior to their field entry
4. Proposal for Competition Suite to be used at region contests
5. Proposal to hold top half/bottom half pre-draw for area finals
6. Proposal to draw for and schedule state prelims based on area results
7. Proposal to prohibit duplication of any judges from state prelims to state finals in the 5-judge system
8. Proposal to amend the penalty for exceeding the 8-minute clock at the region contest from lowered one rating to written reprimand
9. Proposal to allow amplification of ensembles of any size using open microphones
10. Proposal to utilize the 7-judge system at 5A/6A area contests
11. Proposal to reconfigure the 5-judge system resulting in a woodwind, brass, percussion, visual ensemble, and visual individual Judge
12. Proposal to eliminate or expand the 10-hour limit on visual fundamentals prior to August 1
13. Proposal to advance all bands at an area contest with ordinal ties for the final advancement placement to the state contest
14. Proposal to allow a non-student to operate the sound board during the 8-minute clock
15. Proposal to move the percussion judge to the press box OR eliminate “effective use
of electronics (when present)” and “coordination of all performing elements” from the adjudication criteria
16. Proposal for the area/state judge training to be done by a UIL official or someone with no affiliation to a competing program
17. Proposal to modify the point structure on the brass, woodwind, and percussion judge sheets in the 7-judge system

[cybrunette]

They should add another change for the announcer to actually say the scores in the award ceremony this year! Always underwhelming for the states that don't announce them

[hewhowaits]

Jan 27, 2023 15:16:39 GMT -6 cybrunette said:

They should add another change for the announcer to actually say the scores in the award ceremony this year! Always underwhelming for the states that don't announce them

Calling out the "scores" for UIL would also be underwhelming. 

"In 6th place, with a cumulative ordinal of 39, Ronald Reagan High School. ... In 5th place, with a cumulative ordinal of 31, Vista Ridge High School."

And imagine the complete confusion among the masses who don't understand how the system works when Hebron is 2nd with the same cumulative ordinal as 1st place Vandegrift!

[vidal28rdg]

Jan 27, 2023 8:20:41 GMT -6 LeanderMomma said:

Here’s the full list of proposed rule changes:

1. Proposal to change the clock structure to 4 minutes/9 minutes/2 minutes
2. Proposal for front ensembles to be permitted to pre-stage during the prior band’s setup
3. Proposal for bands to be permitted to pre-stage during the three minutes prior to their field entry
4. Proposal for Competition Suite to be used at region contests
5. Proposal to hold top half/bottom half pre-draw for area finals
6. Proposal to draw for and schedule state prelims based on area results
7. Proposal to prohibit duplication of any judges from state prelims to state finals in the 5-judge system
8. Proposal to amend the penalty for exceeding the 8-minute clock at the region contest from lowered one rating to written reprimand
9. Proposal to allow amplification of ensembles of any size using open microphones
10. Proposal to utilize the 7-judge system at 5A/6A area contests
11. Proposal to reconfigure the 5-judge system resulting in a woodwind, brass, percussion, visual ensemble, and visual individual Judge
12. Proposal to eliminate or expand the 10-hour limit on visual fundamentals prior to August 1
13. Proposal to advance all bands at an area contest with ordinal ties for the final advancement placement to the state contest
14. Proposal to allow a non-student to operate the sound board during the 8-minute clock
15. Proposal to move the percussion judge to the press box OR eliminate “effective use
of electronics (when present)” and “coordination of all performing elements” from the adjudication criteria
16. Proposal for the area/state judge training to be done by a UIL official or someone with no affiliation to a competing program
17. Proposal to modify the point structure on the brass, woodwind, and percussion judge sheets in the 7-judge system

you really wouldn’t have expected so much to be brought up to be changed in one year, but if state is going to be every year now, a lot of these are definitely “quality of life” kind of changes to how bands could potentially operate before August in fundamentals camp, during august band camp, and the day of for UIL contests, I’m all for making it more clear what bands need to do well to move onto area, area finals, and the state competitions, and giving the directors less things to worry about in set up, it might’ve been either BOA HEB prelims, or Area B prelims(I honestly can’t remember exactly, Area B was also at HEB) where there was band after band dealing with electronics failures. Giving the bands more time to set up is great too

[cybrunette]

Well that's the issue they'd need to fix. Most states use the 100 point system already outside of BOA, it should just be a standard across the country. It wouldn't invalidate past years & scores while also something being easily recognizable. Plus, it would take away that confusion that shouldn't be there in the first place.

Jan 28, 2023 6:15:05 GMT -6 hewhowaits said:

Jan 27, 2023 15:16:39 GMT -6 cybrunette said:

They should add another change for the announcer to actually say the scores in the award ceremony this year! Always underwhelming for the states that don't announce them

Calling out the "scores" for UIL would also be underwhelming. 

"In 6th place, with a cumulative ordinal of 39, Ronald Reagan High School. ... In 5th place, with a cumulative ordinal of 31, Vista Ridge High School."

And imagine the complete confusion among the masses who don't understand how the system works when Hebron is 2nd with the same cumulative ordinal as 1st place Vandegrift!

[LeanderMomma]

Jan 28, 2023 6:15:05 GMT -6 hewhowaits said:

Jan 27, 2023 15:16:39 GMT -6 cybrunette said:

They should add another change for the announcer to actually say the scores in the award ceremony this year! Always underwhelming for the states that don't announce them

Calling out the "scores" for UIL would also be underwhelming. 

"In 6th place, with a cumulative ordinal of 39, Ronald Reagan High School. ... In 5th place, with a cumulative ordinal of 31, Vista Ridge High School."

And imagine the complete confusion among the masses who don't understand how the system works when Hebron is 2nd with the same cumulative ordinal as 1st place Vandegrift!

Haha this made me laugh!  It’s so true!!!

[LeanderMomma]

Jan 28, 2023 14:42:36 GMT -6 cybrunette said:

Well that's the issue they'd need to fix. Most states use the 100 point system already outside of BOA, it should just be a standard across the country. It wouldn't invalidate past years & scores while also something being easily recognizable. Plus, it would take away that confusion that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I really don’t think the UIL folks care what the rest of the country does. It is Texas after all. 😉

[cybrunette]

Jan 28, 2023 18:38:40 GMT -6 LeanderMomma said:

Jan 28, 2023 14:42:36 GMT -6 cybrunette said:

Well that's the issue they'd need to fix. Most states use the 100 point system already outside of BOA, it should just be a standard across the country. It wouldn't invalidate past years & scores while also something being easily recognizable. Plus, it would take away that confusion that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I really don’t think the UIL folks care what the rest of the country does. It is Texas after all. 😉

You'd be surprised the way people have discussed & have questioned the grading system here lol 

[LeanderMomma]

Jan 28, 2023 20:39:04 GMT -6 cybrunette said:

Jan 28, 2023 18:38:40 GMT -6 LeanderMomma said:

I really don’t think the UIL folks care what the rest of the country does. It is Texas after all. 😉

You'd be surprised the way people have discussed & have questioned the grading system here lol 

Oh I know how much discussion and questioning goes on!  I just don’t think the UIL cares about changing their scoring system to suit us. Maybe some day they will but I’m not betting on it anytime soon. 

[principalagent]

Jan 29, 2023 6:48:17 GMT -6 LeanderMomma said:

Jan 28, 2023 20:39:04 GMT -6 cybrunette said:

You'd be surprised the way people have discussed & have questioned the grading system here lol 

Oh I know how much discussion and questioning goes on!  I just don’t think the UIL cares about changing their scoring system to suit us. Maybe some day they will but I’m not betting on it anytime soon. 

I actually love the ordinal system (although I don’t necessarily think it needs to spread either). It smooths the scores out such that one judge can’t throw the competition by having wide gaps—something that has meaningfully thrown Grand National Championships from one band to the other in recent memory. UIL should keep it. There’s nothing wrong with having a unique method of scoring, and having a standard system or rubric across the country simply isn’t compelling.

Also, burn proposal #6 with fire. That’s by far the worst one on the list by FAR.

[lostchoirguy]

Jan 31, 2023 12:45:58 GMT -6 principalagent said:

Jan 29, 2023 6:48:17 GMT -6 LeanderMomma said:

Oh I know how much discussion and questioning goes on!  I just don’t think the UIL cares about changing their scoring system to suit us. Maybe some day they will but I’m not betting on it anytime soon. 

I actually love the ordinal system (although I don’t necessarily think it needs to spread either). It smooths the scores out such that one judge can’t throw the competition by having wide gaps—something that has meaningfully thrown Grand National Championships from one band to the other in recent memory. UIL should keep it. There’s nothing wrong with having a unique method of scoring, and having a standard system or rubric across the country simply isn’t compelling.

Also, burn proposal #6 with fire. That’s by far the worst one on the list by FAR.

I'm confused by #6. Are they saying it will still be a draw or are they suggesting that instead of a draw they use area results? Or something like the top/bottom half draws where you will fit within a certain range of performance times based on how you did at area?

[principalagent]

Jan 31, 2023 15:22:21 GMT -6 lostchoirguy said:

Jan 31, 2023 12:45:58 GMT -6 principalagent said:

I actually love the ordinal system (although I don’t necessarily think it needs to spread either). It smooths the scores out such that one judge can’t throw the competition by having wide gaps—something that has meaningfully thrown Grand National Championships from one band to the other in recent memory. UIL should keep it. There’s nothing wrong with having a unique method of scoring, and having a standard system or rubric across the country simply isn’t compelling.

Also, burn proposal #6 with fire. That’s by far the worst one on the list by FAR.

I'm confused by #6. Are they saying it will still be a draw or are they suggesting that instead of a draw they use area results? Or something like the top/bottom half draws where you will fit within a certain range of performance times based on how you did at area?

It’ll still be some sort of draw, I’m sure, but one that makes no sense on any logic. For one, we’re dealing with nine different contests. Second, they all advance different numbers of bands—sometimes by a factor of two. Third, it highly disadvantages bands coming out of competitive areas. Four, it forces bands to have tough travel and performance schedules they might not necessarily have had. I can keep going.

[vidal28rdg]

There are gonna be bands from distant regions from San Antonio that get hosed with early travel times because someone apparently has to. Rule #6 does strike me a bit odd because no one really asked for this with all the rhetoric that goes on about how Area and State are two different competitions. Every area has different minimums and máximums possible when it comes to the number of bands that make it to Area, it really wouldn’t make sense. Some areas are on track to potentially have 7 bands qualify in 6A, where some are limited to only 3 or 4. It kinda sounds like a lazy attempt at seeding. The only thing I can say is that they’re trying to make Area and State more similar in the way that they’re adjudicated with some of the proposals, but even then, no Area contest is the same.

[marimba11]

Jan 31, 2023 12:45:58 GMT -6 principalagent said:

Jan 29, 2023 6:48:17 GMT -6 LeanderMomma said:

Oh I know how much discussion and questioning goes on!  I just don’t think the UIL cares about changing their scoring system to suit us. Maybe some day they will but I’m not betting on it anytime soon. 

I actually love the ordinal system (although I don’t necessarily think it needs to spread either). It smooths the scores out such that one judge can’t throw the competition by having wide gaps—something that has meaningfully thrown Grand National Championships from one band to the other in recent memory. UIL should keep it. There’s nothing wrong with having a unique method of scoring, and having a standard system or rubric across the country simply isn’t compelling.

Also, burn proposal #6 with fire. That’s by far the worst one on the list by FAR.

I agree on both accounts.

I have always thought the ordinal system was more logical but not a nuanced (or precise) whatever word you want to use. Judges still have to use the same thought process. Obviously, numbers management in ordinal systems is easier, but it is harder for bands on early. Ie Marcus 2020. And probably one the of reasons Round Rock in 2018 did so well on the other end of it. 

And I am always against anything that isn't a random draw

[supersound]

I think UIL needs some sort of distance / performing time rule. For example, Frenship one of the furthest bands was set to perform in the first block. Unlike other bands they were not at San Antonio and by no fault of their own were at a huge disadvantage.

I’m glad about the potential area top / half split. We should aim to eliminate random draw from finals scheduling as much as possible.

[hewhowaits]

Feb 4, 2023 0:49:51 GMT -6 supersound said:

I think UIL needs some sort of distance / performing time rule. For example, Frenship one of the furthest bands was set to perform in the first block. Unlike other bands they were not at San Antonio and by no fault of their own were at a huge disadvantage.

So you prefer the ISSMA rule where the more distant bands are not included in the (mostly random) draw for early time slots at semi-state, often forcing one of the top bands to perform first among the 20 while others may go on at the end of the day?

[supersound]

Feb 4, 2023 9:18:18 GMT -6 hewhowaits said:

Feb 4, 2023 0:49:51 GMT -6 supersound said:

I think UIL needs some sort of distance / performing time rule. For example, Frenship one of the furthest bands was set to perform in the first block. Unlike other bands they were not at San Antonio and by no fault of their own were at a huge disadvantage.

So you prefer the ISSMA rule where the more distant bands are not included in the (mostly random) draw for early time slots at semi-state, often forcing one of the top bands to perform first among the 20 while others may go on at the end of the day?

Sure yeah.

Being a top band doesn’t mean you get a pass to perform later in the day. We’re talking about distance issues which is about feasibility and not at all related to skill.

[WoodlandsMom4ever]

Feb 4, 2023 9:52:17 GMT -6 supersound said:

Feb 4, 2023 9:18:18 GMT -6 hewhowaits said:

So you prefer the ISSMA rule where the more distant bands are not included in the (mostly random) draw for early time slots at semi-state, often forcing one of the top bands to perform first among the 20 while others may go on at the end of the day?

Sure yeah.

Being a top band doesn’t mean you get a pass to perform later in the day. We’re talking about distance issues which is about feasibility and not at all related to skill.

I agree with this. 2018 (I think) TWHS was the first on the field for SMBC and the last in finals. I don’t think it affected them at all… they could go first easily because they were already in San Antonio for SA BOA the Saturday before, but to find out a week before that you have an 8am performance and if you are 3,4,5,6 + hours away… that’s an incredible amount of stress and chaos and expense if you have to add a Sunday night hotel when you had planned on driving out early Monday morning.

I know that’s definitely in the minds with the new schedule of smbc this next year because we wouldn’t be in San Antonio before it and legitimately could wind up having to leave at 2 am for an 8am performance.

[principalagent]

Feb 4, 2023 0:49:51 GMT -6 supersound said:

I think UIL needs some sort of distance / performing time rule. For example, Frenship one of the furthest bands was set to perform in the first block. Unlike other bands they were not at San Antonio and by no fault of their own were at a huge disadvantage.

I’m glad about the potential area top / half split. We should aim to eliminate random draw from finals scheduling as much as possible.

I disagree about the area split, pretty dramatically so (but not to the level of proposal six 🤢).

Even more than other competitions, Area prelims is about *nothing* more than getting the right bands in. The order doesn’t matter to the judges and ordinals are almost always all over the place. Especially from places 4 through like 14 in every area. Finals should be a totally clean and unslotted slate. In part because it’s not just to crown a champion like all other competitions, so you want to make sure the contenders are performing close by each other—some number of bands are actually advancing to a totally new competition. If it’s a 12 band finals in an area with 6 bands advancing and there’s a top and bottom split, you might as well cancel finals and just send those six through. You can go back through all the BOA results on this website and see how rarely bands move across the gap—perhaps even when they should.