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Post by bigtrombone on Aug 12, 2023 21:05:52 GMT -6
Congratulations to the Blue Devils on Championship #21!
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Aug 12, 2023 21:07:17 GMT -6
Here are some thoughts on the 2023 DCI Finals, as viewed on the high camera live stream. There are lots of opinions in what follows.... I see a mention of an Ohio band in the section about the Blue Devils Sure. But just a suggestion: when someone makes a long post, you don't have to quote the whole thing. Clutters the page less that way. Anyway, I almost got the Blue Devils' score right. |
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Aug 12, 2023 21:09:12 GMT -6
DCI World Championship Finals Scores1. Blue Devils 98.975 (Visual, Guard, GE) 2. Bluecoats 97.738 3. Carolina Crown 97.663 (Brass) 4. Boston Crusaders 96.925 5. The Cadets 94.313 6. Mandarins 93.775 7. Phantom Regiment 92.988 (Jim Jones Award) 8. The Cavaliers 92.125 (Percussion) 9. Colts 90.263 10. Troopers 89.475 11. Blue Starts 88.625 12. Blue Knights 86.375 Recaps can be found here: dci.org/scores/recap/2023-dci-world-championship-finals Carolina Crown lost music tonight to Blue Devils by 0.012. |
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Post by dbalash on Aug 12, 2023 21:10:37 GMT -6
DCI World Championship Finals Scores1. Blue Devils 98.975 (Visual, Guard, GE) 2. Bluecoats 97.738 3. Carolina Crown 97.663 (Brass) 4. Boston Crusaders 96.925 5. The Cadets 94.313 6. Mandarins 93.775 7. Phantom Regiment 92.988 (Jim Jones Award) 8. The Cavaliers 92.125 (Percussion) 9. Colts 90.263 10. Troopers 89.475 11. Blue Starts 88.625 12. Blue Knights 86.375 Recaps can be found here: dci.org/scores/recap/2023-dci-world-championship-finals Blue Devils smoked the crap out of everyone. Lost GE Effect 1 Judge 1 by .1, Visual Analysis by .05, Brass by .1, Music Analysis Judge 2 by .05, Percussion by .2 WON: GE Effect 1 Judge 2 by .2 GE Effect 2 Judge 1 by .2 GE Effect 2 Judge 2 by .2 Visual Proficiency by .3 Color Guard by .4 Music Analysis Judge 1 by .1 |
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Post by dbalash on Aug 12, 2023 21:15:06 GMT -6
Congratulations to the Blue Devils on Championship #21! Should be #22 or even #23. Should have won in '04 over 007, should have won in '08 if they didn't crap the bed in finals. |
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Aug 12, 2023 21:26:57 GMT -6
Carolina Crown lost music tonight to Blue Devils by 0.012. Blue Devils were less dominant in captions tonight compared to last night -- taking first with seven rather than nine of the eleven judges -- but a few judges' margins made up for that. One of the visually-oriented GE judges had Crown in first place and Bluecoats ahead of BD in content (resulting in Crown 19.7, BD 19.6, Bloo 19.5). But the other visually-oriented GE judge had Crown in fourth place and BD with a perfect score. The two music-oriented GE judges had BD ahead of Crown by a rather unseemly amount, given the music peformance results. Visual analysis went to Bluecoats over Blue Devils by a half-tenth. But visual proficiency went to BD over Bloo by three-tenths. And BD was four tenths ahead of Boston Crusaders in guard. The only perfect 10 subcaption not issued to BD went to Crown for achievement in brass, but their content was ranked second, so they won that tonight by just a tenth (but they could have lost by a couple tenths and still won the brass trophy, which is based on three nights). Last night I said that Crown needed to take music analysis back from BD to make a move. They almost did it: one judge had them in first, but the other had them in second, and averaged togther, that was a net half-tenth advantage for BD. Cavaliers likewise could have lost percussion by a few tenths tonight and still won the trophy based on the previous two nights, but they actually took that caption tonight by two tenths over BD. And Crown was in third, just one tenth behind BD. So I think it's fair to say Sunday's result (where Crown topped BD in percussion -- both behind Cavs, of course) wasn't so inexplicable. Yesterday I said that based on past years, we should expect BD to win tonight with a score of 98.775. Tonight after seeing them perform, I said they would win with a score of 99.000. They actually scored 98.975. I'm feeling pretty good about that, even as I was off with some of the others. I do believe Blue Devils were the deserved winners, and this is one of my favorite of their shows,* but I also think the next three should have been closer. This was a top four for the ages. *Edited to add: I don't think Blue Devils should have won in 1996, 1999, 2012, 2015, or 2017, and I'm of two minds about their victories in 2019 and 2021. However, I rather think they should have won in 1995. So they'd have 16-18 championships if I had my druthers. Edited further to note the coincidence of this amusing comment by Matt Yglesias tonight on German sports: "I don't really see the fun in a soccer league where the same team wins every year." |
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Aug 12, 2023 22:41:49 GMT -6
Here's how the caption awards shook out. The number shown is the average over all three nights. I only show corps who scored 19 out of 20 or higher. Rounding to 4 digits.
General Effect
1. Blue Devils -- 39.4083
2. Carolina Crown -- 38.9750
3. Bluecoats -- 38.9500
4. Boston Crusaders -- 38.5500
Visual Proficiency
1. Blue Devils -- 19.8667
2. Boston Crusaders -- 19.5000
3. Bluecoats -- 19.4333
4. Carolina Crown -- 19.4167
Color Guard
1. Blue Devils -- 19.6667
2. Boston Crusaders -- 19.4000
3. Bluecoats -- 19.3000
4. Carolina Crown -- 19.1000
Brass
1. Carolina Crown -- 19.7000
2. Blue Devils -- 19.4833
3. Bluecoats -- 19.4167
4. Boston Crusaders -- 19.3667
Percussion
1. Cavaliers -- 19.6667
2. Blue Devils -- 19.4000
3. Boston Crusaders -- 19.3833
4. Bluecoats (tie) -- 19.2333
4. Carolina Crown (tie) -- 19.2333
6. Cadets -- 19.1833
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Post by paddy on Aug 12, 2023 23:47:13 GMT -6
I stand by my inexplicable comment concerning percussion scores. Crown’s percussion wasn’t the third best group out there today.
As for Pittsburgh, it ain’t the first time Howarth has gone off the reservation. He biffed WGI finals as well.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Aug 13, 2023 0:05:41 GMT -6
I stand by my inexplicable comment concerning percussion scores. Crown’s percussion wasn’t the third best group out there today. As for Pittsburgh, it ain’t the first time Howarth has gone off the reservation. He biffed WGI finals as well. To be fair, I myself was surprised when Crown's percussion score topped BD's in Pittsburgh, having seen both shows live. Elsewhere on the web tonight, I'm seeing praise for tonight's percussion judge for recognizing certain challenges with Crown's writing. I think it's fair to say that over the past week, DCI's percussion judges generally at least seem to believe that Crown's percussion was among the elite. All three judges in championships put Crown above 19, i.e., the top half of "box 5," and as I noted above, they tied for fourth with Bluecoats. - - - - - - - - - - On another note, I would like to mention that FloMarching's livestream worked perfectly for me tonight, and also for those parts of Semifinals that I watched yesterday (which was about half), and also for all of Thursday (until I left to see the cinema showing), except part of the performance of the very first corps, Les Stentors. Although that does bring up one question: I noticed at Open Class that only the U.S. national anthem was played. Les Stentors hail from Quebec. It is my recollection in years past that when there have been Canadian, British, Dutch, or other foreign corps in attendance, that their national anthems were also played -- although often that meant a tinny recording. Am I remembering incorrectly? Did something officially change? |
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Post by paddy on Aug 13, 2023 0:15:02 GMT -6
Never underestimate the value of a good narrative.
They finished 4th on the power of an outlier finals score. From one judge, who scored them inconsistently earlier in the year.
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Post by philodemus on Aug 13, 2023 6:42:06 GMT -6
It's not just that the same team wins every year, it's that the team who wins every year is also the least memorable among the elite teams.
Effect may be a nebulous and subjective thing, but shouldn't it at least have some correlation to the likelihood of a viewer saying, "Wow, that was cool and I'd like to see it again?"
Though to be fair, the gap was less so than last season. Not due to Devs becoming more interesting, but due to BAC, and to some extent Bloo, being less interesting.
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Post by Allohak on Aug 13, 2023 7:27:16 GMT -6
Wish someone other than BD and in the top 5 had interesting shows anymore. The rare cases where lightning in a bottle is caught, not-BD can win.
But usually it's BD head-and-shoulders above the rest in both design and execution since like...2007.
The only BD design miss in that span was deservingly 2nd behind the worst champion show package and dirtiest champion finals performance since the 80s.
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Post by marimba11 on Aug 13, 2023 10:34:58 GMT -6
It's not just that the same team wins every year, it's that the team who wins every year is also the least memorable among the elite teams. Effect may be a nebulous and subjective thing, but shouldn't it at least have some correlation to the likelihood of a viewer saying, "Wow, that was cool and I'd like to see it again?" Though to be fair, the gap was less so than last season. Not due to Devs becoming more interesting, but due to BAC, and to some extent Bloo, being less interesting. Speak for yourself! Both sides now was dreamy to me |
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Post by marimba11 on Aug 13, 2023 10:38:26 GMT -6
The problem for Boston IMO was their brass was too quiet and layered. Also the first half of the show was not as compelling as the back half. It’s gotta be all in the whole time.
I think this was a great season for crown. I don’t love Jeff’s drill but this was probably the best package he’s given them from a staging perspective. I think just demand alone it should have been ahead of Coats.
Bluecoats show really came together -(even though I absolutely hated it). If they do another 60s hippie show again next year im gonna eat my hat.
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Post by dbalash on Aug 13, 2023 11:07:46 GMT -6
Wish someone other than BD and in the top 5 had interesting shows anymore. The rare cases where lightning in a bottle is caught, not-BD can win. But usually it's BD head-and-shoulders above the rest in both design and execution since like...2007. The only BD design miss in that span was deservingly 2nd behind the worst champion show package and dirtiest champion finals performance since the 80s. ....So Vanguard 2018? Or Crown 2013? |
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Post by Allohak on Aug 13, 2023 17:35:41 GMT -6
Wish someone other than BD and in the top 5 had interesting shows anymore. The rare cases where lightning in a bottle is caught, not-BD can win. But usually it's BD head-and-shoulders above the rest in both design and execution since like...2007. The only BD design miss in that span was deservingly 2nd behind the worst champion show package and dirtiest champion finals performance since the 80s. ....So Vanguard 2018? Or Crown 2013? 2016 |
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Post by das88 on Aug 13, 2023 17:52:42 GMT -6
I really enjoyed Crown and Boston this season. Crown maxed out their show. Finals show was as clean as I have seen it. Glad to see that and that they won the Jim Ott award again. Personally, I appreciate more "traditional" shows that are about music and marching. That is why Crown and PR are fan favorites.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Aug 13, 2023 20:37:54 GMT -6
I really enjoyed Crown and Boston this season. Crown maxed out their show. Finals show was as clean as I have seen it. Glad to see that and that they won the Jim Ott award again. Personally, I appreciate more "traditional" shows that are about music and marching. That is why Crown and PR are fan favorites. Since the late 2000s (but not always, to be sure), Carolina Crown and Phantom Regiment have often tried to tell stories with their shows. (As did Boston this year. Arguably Blue Devils and Bluecoats did too, but I think many observers fail to follow BD's story and one can question whether the three-stanza poem that Bloo dramatized counts as a "story.") Shows that told stories have been pretty uncommon for most of DCI's history, not to mention the 50+ years of drum corps before DCI was founded, so I would be reluctant to say that what they do is traditional, or that it is more traditional than what other corps do. |
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Aug 13, 2023 22:04:23 GMT -6
Blue Devils win 21st DCI World Championship (WTHR-13, Indianapolis) Not only do the "Blue Coats" (sic) make an appearance in that piece, but if you watch the accompanying video, you can hear "corpse" for "corps" and learn that the "top ten" corps appear in Finals as you see a corps perform in a mostly empty stadium. DCI really needs to put together some solid B-roll and better talking points for the media to use.
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Post by paddy on Aug 14, 2023 6:25:02 GMT -6
Blue Devils win 21st DCI World Championship (WTHR-13, Indianapolis) Not only do the "Blue Coats" (sic) make an appearance in that piece, but if you watch the accompanying video, you can hear "corpse" for "corps" and learn that the "top ten" corps appear in Finals as you see a corps perform in a mostly empty stadium. DCI really needs to put together some solid B-roll and better talking points for the media to use. The best local guy producing quality marching band news content in the Indy market left TV and went to radio this winter. He worked for WRTV and did some great pieces over the years. He would always do nice 2-4 minute wrap up pieces for DCI, ISSMA and BOA. Last year he did a nice piece on the Troopers and their Indiana kids in the lead up to finals. This year he did a radio spot on Boston. I got to hang with him Friday night and we lamented the fact he wasn’t going to be able to produce a video piece last weekend. |
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Post by statechamp1239 on Aug 14, 2023 17:06:53 GMT -6
Record Breaking Moments: Mandarins has earned their highest score/placement ever in World Class. (6th/93.775) breaking their 10th place curse. Music City earning their highest score ever (82.875) It has been a decade (2013) since Phantom Regiment broke the 92+ score percentile. Highest score in each placement: - R.I.P. SCV. They lost their 2013 highest record in 4th place with a score of 96.850 that was defeat on 8/12/23 by Boston Crusaders (96.925)
4th placement: 2023 Boston Crusaders (96.925), 2013 Santa Clara Vanguard (96.850), 2008 Carolina Crown (96.800)
- 2010 Blue Stars record breaking 8th place with a score of 91.900 was defeated by The Green Machine with a score of 92.125.
8th placement: 2023 The Cavaliers (92.125), 2010 Blue Stars (91.900), 1992 Phantom Regiment (91.500)
- Blue Stars's 11th placement score (88.625) has beat Glassmen 2005 record of 87.700 granting them the highest score in 11th.
11th placement: 2023 Blue Stars (88.625), 2005 Glassmen (87.700), 2014 Madison Scouts (87.575
Second & Third Highest Placement score: - Colts earned their highest score ever (90.263) and getting their highest placement tying with 1995 "Sunday in the Park with George" 9th placement, as well achieved the third highest score placement in 9th place.
9th placement: 2022 The Cavaliers (90.600), 2004 Boston Crusaders (90.525), 2023 Colts (90.263)
- TROOPERS! Getting their highest score ever 89.475, and getting the second highest score in 10th place
10th placement: 2022 Mandarins (90.100), 2023 Troopers (89.475), 2019 Mandarins (89.300)
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came
Full Member
Posts: 45
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Post by came on Aug 27, 2023 9:55:50 GMT -6
....So Vanguard 2018? Or Crown 2013? 2016 thought I may as well ask how is bloo 2016 one of the worst designed champions? I think a lot of people would put that show as one of the best designed shows in dci history, not many shows flow together from movement to movement like that, not many shows interact with props so well, and the arrangements are incredibly well done. And tbh the uni's aren't as bad as I remember, top corps have done wayyy worse since. |
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Post by Shroom on Aug 29, 2023 14:43:29 GMT -6
I really just have to applaud the stunning bravery it takes every year for Cross' design team to cripple a finalist tier corps the start by basically just not picking a show theme.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Aug 29, 2023 18:32:26 GMT -6
If that is indeed what the Xmen are doing, then I would agree it is admirable. Themes should be unnecessary. Many top drum corps shows over the years haven't had them, or certainly to no greater degree than Crossmen's 2023 show. Multiple shows that Crossmen took to Finals had less of a theme than what they presented this year.
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Post by Shroom on Aug 29, 2023 19:16:55 GMT -6
If that is indeed what the Xmen are doing, then I would agree it is admirable. Themes should be unnecessary. Many top drum corps shows over the years haven't had them, or certainly to no greater degree than Crossmen's 2023 show. Multiple shows that Crossmen took to Finals had less of a theme than what they presented this year. Of course many corps have not had show themes over the years, but that's simply not viable in the modern era to maintain competitive success. The only finalist corps to not have a distinct theme this year are the cavies, and that's due to it being an anniversary show, which is arguably a theme in and of itself. While Cross has made finals with vague show themes in the past, they've fallen in and out of finals often since show themes became competitively necessary and have had problems recreating the competitive success they had in the 90s-early 2000s when that method of design was more common and preferred. Maybe themes shouldn't be necessary for corps to make finals, but my comment is in regards to what is, not what ought be. |
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Aug 31, 2023 23:40:59 GMT -6
If that is indeed what the Xmen are doing, then I would agree it is admirable. Themes should be unnecessary. Many top drum corps shows over the years haven't had them, or certainly to no greater degree than Crossmen's 2023 show. Multiple shows that Crossmen took to Finals had less of a theme than what they presented this year. Of course many corps have not had show themes over the years, but that's simply not viable in the modern era to maintain competitive success. The only finalist corps to not have a distinct theme this year are the cavies, and that's due to it being an anniversary show, which is arguably a theme in and of itself. While Cross has made finals with vague show themes in the past, they've fallen in and out of finals often since show themes became competitively necessary and have had problems recreating the competitive success they had in the 90s-early 2000s when that method of design was more common and preferred. Maybe themes shouldn't be necessary for corps to make finals, but my comment is in regards to what is, not what ought be. Who decided that themes were competitively necessary? It's important to remember that these things didn't just happen on their own. |
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