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Post by james50 on Oct 22, 2023 9:30:59 GMT -6
Dear ISSMA and BOA, Please coordinate schedules next year and NEVER run events on the same weekend again!! Signed, Every Indiana band family #exhausted Unfortunately, I think this will be the schedule next year as well. Taylor Swift has Lucas Oil booked the weekend of Nov 3-4 which will probably push everything up a week again for ISSMA. I'm so confused why BOA doesn't have Lucas Oil booked years in advance for these events. Taylor Swift just booked it two or so months ago. How was it available? Oh well, moot point.
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Post by indyguy8362 on Oct 22, 2023 9:41:46 GMT -6
Wait so Centerville drops from 8th place and 83.0 in prelims, to 11 and 80.8?? I get the panel is different but their show was louder, cleaner, had working mics, and was overall better. I’m confused regardless of judges changes yea i only recognize one name on the judging panel. 2021 finals i recognize a lot more notable names. def a factor for all 14 finalist.
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Post by BandHomer on Oct 22, 2023 9:49:01 GMT -6
Unfortunately, I think this will be the schedule next year as well. Taylor Swift has Lucas Oil booked the weekend of Nov 3-4 which will probably push everything up a week again for ISSMA. I'm so confused why BOA doesn't have Lucas Oil booked years in advance for these events. Taylor Swift just booked it two or so months ago. How was it available? Oh well, moot point. I’d bet the issue is more with ISSMA scheduling than BOA. Past performance is the best predictor of future…issues. Or however the adage goes.
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Post by warehouse314 on Oct 22, 2023 9:52:21 GMT -6
Unfortunately, I think this will be the schedule next year as well. Taylor Swift has Lucas Oil booked the weekend of Nov 3-4 which will probably push everything up a week again for ISSMA. I'm so confused why BOA doesn't have Lucas Oil booked years in advance for these events. Taylor Swift just booked it two or so months ago. How was it available? Oh well, moot point. Looks like the schedule next year will be: 10/18 & 19: Indy SR 10/23-26: FFA 10/26: ISSMA Semi-State 11/1-3: Taylor Swift 11/9: ISSMA State 11/14-16: Grand Nats
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Post by trumpet300 on Oct 22, 2023 9:58:56 GMT -6
Wait so Centerville drops from 8th place and 83.0 in prelims, to 11 and 80.8?? I get the panel is different but their show was louder, cleaner, had working mics, and was overall better. I’m confused regardless of judges changes This is common when panels change. Lower end scores tend to go down regardless of how much better the Bands do. I'm not saying it always happens this way but it happens often. As someone who too likes Centerville, i have to say they just weren't close to the bands in the 7th, 8th range. They are a good band but as much as I like them, their placement was more than fair given the competition.
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Post by themarcingdepthsofoh on Oct 22, 2023 10:40:17 GMT -6
Wait so Centerville drops from 8th place and 83.0 in prelims, to 11 and 80.8?? I get the panel is different but their show was louder, cleaner, had working mics, and was overall better. I’m confused regardless of judges changes This is common when panels change. Lower end scores tend to go down regardless of how much better the Bands do. I'm not saying it always happens this way but it happens often. As someone who too likes Centerville, i have to say they just weren't close to the bands in the 7th, 8th range. They are a good band but as much as I like them, their placement was more than fair given the competition. There were just several judging choices in finals that were interesting. CG jumping above Lakota West and Centerville(Centerville of course taking the biggest hit drop 2-3 points). Obviously panel changes will cause change I agree, but some of these changes feel way more drastic than most years, especially at this Indy Super Regionals where he’s bands have up and down performances so there’s still change. But the order always felt very consistent, last night felt off.
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Post by themarcingdepthsofoh on Oct 22, 2023 10:40:55 GMT -6
Wait so Centerville drops from 8th place and 83.0 in prelims, to 11 and 80.8?? I get the panel is different but their show was louder, cleaner, had working mics, and was overall better. I’m confused regardless of judges changes yea i only recognize one name on the judging panel. 2021 finals i recognize a lot more notable names. def a factor for all 14 finalist. This might make it make more sense
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Post by coleeich on Oct 22, 2023 11:30:17 GMT -6
I do find it interesting that all 4 of the "next 4" were from panel 2. I get the need for a system to balance out having two judging panels, but I am not sure the current system is it.
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Post by mjans5 on Oct 22, 2023 11:51:39 GMT -6
Is anyone else surprised by Lincoln-Way’s absence from finals? They made it pretty comfortably last year and I thought this year’s show was much stronger.
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Post by trumpet300 on Oct 22, 2023 11:53:08 GMT -6
Is anyone else surprised by Lincoln-Way’s absence from finals? They made it pretty comfortably last year and I thought this year’s show was much stronger. Not particularly. Love Lincoln Way, but I think they just have too much dirt in the shows at this point in the season compared to other groups.
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Post by mjans5 on Oct 22, 2023 12:12:16 GMT -6
Is anyone else surprised by Lincoln-Way’s absence from finals? They made it pretty comfortably last year and I thought this year’s show was much stronger. Not particularly. Love Lincoln Way, but I think they just have too much dirt in the shows at this point in the season compared to other groups. Oh, I see. Probably a result of relaxing their practice schedule this season.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 22, 2023 12:26:17 GMT -6
It was exhausting to be sure. I know having the FFA in town basically pushes everything else to another weekend. Even on the day of ISSMA State there is a marathon running down Capitol Street right next to LOS, which can’t make it easy for spectators of whichever classes (it’s never A) have the earlier sessions. I’m amazed and grateful that five full-day band contests including a whopping 126 band performances could run simultaneously in the same county and still all get enough volunteers to make it all run (as far as I have heard) smoothly. I never experienced anything but professionalism, cheerful attitudes and great help from all the many volunteers I encountered. I hope all the out of state bands felt welcome despite how busy all the Hoosiers were. Huge thanks to everyone who made this madness happen! But you’re right, we’re pretty beat. indiana really is the marching band capital of the world. sorry texas 😄 no offense but if y’all Indiana folks thought this past weekend was exhausting, let me raise you UIL state championships, the San Antonio Super Regional and Grand Nats all within a 9 day period and that includes traveling to ALL of them. 😁😅🥴
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Post by paddy on Oct 22, 2023 12:29:55 GMT -6
indiana really is the marching band capital of the world. sorry texas 😄 no offense but if y’all Indiana folks thought this past weekend was exhausting, let me raise you UIL state championships, the San Antonio Super Regional and Grand Nats all within a 9 day period and that includes traveling to ALL of them. 😁😅🥴 And don’t underestimate the wear and tear of hauling around those Texas sized egos. 😎 I have always said that Texas is the best marching band state and Indiana is the best marching band state per capita. It is a joy to watch groups from both states perform.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 22, 2023 12:30:53 GMT -6
no offense but if y’all Indiana folks thought this past weekend was exhausting, let me raise you UIL state championships, the San Antonio Super Regional and Grand Nats all within a 9 day period and that includes traveling to ALL of them. 😁😅🥴 And don’t underestimate the wear and tear of hauling around those Texas sized egos. 😎 I have always said that Texas is the best marching band state and Indiana is the best marching band state per capita. It is a joy to watch groups from both states perform. I wasn’t actually talking about ego. Just exhaustion.
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Post by lostchoirguy on Oct 22, 2023 13:04:35 GMT -6
no offense but if y’all Indiana folks thought this past weekend was exhausting, let me raise you UIL state championships, the San Antonio Super Regional and Grand Nats all within a 9 day period and that includes traveling to ALL of them. 😁😅🥴 And don’t underestimate the wear and tear of hauling around those Texas sized egos. 😎 I have always said that Texas is the best marching band state and Indiana is the best marching band state per capita. It is a joy to watch groups from both states perform. Oklahoma might have them both beat per capita, or at least they will if the bands continue improving like they have been. I like to think of Texas regionally though. There is a similar population to Indiana in the DFW area, the Houston area and the Austin/ San Antonio area. I think that makes it easier to see a comparison between the quality in each state.
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Post by Jake W. on Oct 22, 2023 13:21:01 GMT -6
I do find it interesting that all 4 of the "next 4" were from panel 2. I get the need for a system to balance out having two judging panels, but I am not sure the current system is it. This really isn't directed at you, coleeich, but there are a number of posters here who put way too much stock into panels, and I would encourage everyone to just not look at them as much. They really don't matter in the big ways that many members of our community assume they do; they are merely a means to merge two separately-judged contest into one bulk-scored contest. I'm sure there are a number of instances at super regionals and grand nats where x bubble band would've scored two-tenths of a point higher on a different panel next to a direct competitor, but I have yet to be convinced that panel arguments are anything other than shades of grey & nuance. If you're a top band in Prelims, panels have nothing to do with that. If you're a bubble band in Prelims, you have to perform well and make your case regardless of which panel you are on. What is the argument here, that Lincoln-Way would have made Finals if they were on a different panel? Or Yukon, Bixby, Deer Creek, or Southmoore? How could anyone possibly demonstrate that beyond a feeling? What if the "last 4" in were really the best & most accurate 4 - does it matter that they were all from the same panel? What is the argument for suspicion - that Panel 1 was underscored? But it's the same panel that landed Centerville much higher than their Finals placement, the same panel that vaulted Union into the top half of Finals, the same panel that gave O'Fallon high enough numbers to beat Mason in multiple sub captions, the same panel that put Southmoore, Deer Creek, & Yukon all above Bixby. Or is the argument that Panel 2 was overscored? Well, that's the same panel that landed Castle in the bottom half Finals, buried Center Grove below their would-be Finals placement, and landed Edgewood below Western (who was on Panel 1). I've just never seen a convincing argument that panels really make or break who moves on - if a band feels they unequivocally should land in the top half of Finals, or should be ahead of their bubble neighbors and land in Finals at all, then said band needs to make that case strongly enough that either set of judges would agree. Everything else - "there is no way x band would have scored 8/10ths of a point behind y band if they had been on the same panel" - is murky shades of grey and a claim that is impossible to demonstrate. There are too many other variables, and it is an exercise in futility. What I would encourage everyone to pay attention to instead, at every Super Regional & GN, is how one set of judges (a panel) ranked a band, and how that determined where they fit in with other bubble bands regardless of panel. For example, both Panel 2 Music GE judges scored Noblesville exceptionally well, and that is what landed them in Finals. One of those Music GE numbers held up in Finals, so it seems those Prelims numbers weren't entirely off base. The judges from Panel 2 landed Choctaw in Finals as a result of their individual execution scores & Visual GE. The Ind Vis & Vis GE placements held up pretty well for Choctaw in Finals. Panel 1 clearly had a uniform opinion that the Oklahoma bands (outside of Union, who scored very well in GE, and Deer Creek, to some extent) were all unable to compete with their bubble neighbors across the board in GE. It is also interesting to me that the same panel of judges landed Lockport & Lincoln-Way .80 away from each other, which has not seemed to be the case in Illinois since pre-Covid, and how a uniform panel ranked all of the OK groups (outside of Choctaw, who was on a different panel). The direct comparisons that certain bands get on one panel across a massive Prelims contest are the much more interesting stories worth paying attention to. Looking at an overall score and comparing across panels for a group that made it into Finals is not that interesting - the "how they made it in" story that the subcaptions tell is where the meat is.
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Post by coleeich on Oct 22, 2023 13:53:01 GMT -6
I do find it interesting that all 4 of the "next 4" were from panel 2. I get the need for a system to balance out having two judging panels, but I am not sure the current system is it. This really isn't directed at you, coleeich , but there are a number of posters here who put way too much stock into panels, and I would encourage everyone to just not look at them as much. They really don't matter in the big ways that many members of our community assume they do; they are merely a means to merge two separately-judged contest into one bulk-scored contest. I'm sure there are a number of instances at super regionals and grand nats where x bubble band would've scored two-tenths of a point higher on a different panel next to a direct competitor, but I have yet to be convinced that panel arguments are anything other than shades of grey & nuance. If you're a top band in Prelims, panels have nothing to do with that. If you're a bubble band in Prelims, you have to perform well and make your case regardless of which panel you are on. What is the argument here, that Lincoln-Way would have made Finals if they were on a different panel? Or Yukon, Bixby, Deer Creek, or Southmoore? How could anyone possibly demonstrate that beyond a feeling? What if the "last 4" in were really the best & most accurate 4 - does it matter that they were all from the same panel? What is the argument for suspicion - that Panel 1 was underscored? But it's the same panel that landed Centerville much higher than their Finals placement, the same panel that vaulted Union into the top half of Finals, the same panel that gave O'Fallon high enough numbers to beat Mason in multiple sub captions, the same panel that put Southmoore, Deer Creek, & Yukon all above Bixby. Or is the argument that Panel 2 was overscored? Well, that's the same panel that landed Castle in the bottom half Finals, buried Center Grove below their would-be Finals placement, and landed Edgewood below Western (who was on Panel 1). I've just never seen a convincing argument that panels really make or break who moves on - if a band feels they unequivocally should land in the top half of Finals, or should be ahead of their bubble neighbors and land in Finals at all, then said band needs to make that case strongly enough that either set of judges would agree. Everything else - "there is no way x band would have scored 8/10ths of a point behind y band if they had been on the same panel" - is murky shades of grey and a claim that is impossible to demonstrate. There are too many other variables, and it is an exercise in futility. What I would encourage everyone to pay attention to instead, at every Super Regional & GN, is how one set of judges (a panel) ranked a band, and how that determined where they fit in with other bubble bands regardless of panel. For example, both Panel 2 Music GE judges scored Noblesville exceptionally well, and that is what landed them in Finals. One of those Music GE numbers held up in Finals, so it seems those Prelims numbers weren't entirely off base. The judges from Panel 2 landed Choctaw in Finals as a result of their individual execution scores & Visual GE. The Ind Vis & Vis GE placements held up pretty well for Choctaw in Finals. Panel 1 clearly had a uniform opinion that the Oklahoma bands (outside of Union, who scored very well in GE, and Deer Creek, to some extent) were all unable to compete with their bubble neighbors across the board in GE. It is also interesting to me that the same panel of judges landed Lockport & Lincoln-Way .80 away from each other, which has not seemed to be the case in Illinois since pre-Covid, and how a uniform panel ranked all of the OK groups (outside of Choctaw, who was on a different panel). The direct comparisons that certain bands get on one panel across a massive Prelims contest are the much more interesting stories worth paying attention to. Looking at an overall score and comparing across panels for a group that made it into Finals is not that interesting - the "how they made it in" story that the subcaptions tell is where the meat is. I don't disagree with any of this! Was meerly making an observation. I think the bands that made finals were all very deserving! I also think there may have been some minor differences had the panels been split differently. But, as you said, it is impossible to say!
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Post by Sir Loin on Oct 22, 2023 14:15:52 GMT -6
Castle bottom half?! I didn’t watch their show but it seems quite strange for them to be there with their track record in recent years. Thoughts? Honestly I think this is more inline with how the track records were pre-covid. I do remember this trend, but I thought post-Covid they had turned the corner to being a somewhat consistent GN finalist band especially after last year’s appearance in GN finals. Still putting in great work and fun shows!
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Post by smiten82 on Oct 22, 2023 14:18:02 GMT -6
Welp, poor Bixby, I was very wrong about them, anywho what was everyone’s favorite shows from finals! I personally loved fishers and thought they were super fun! I really liked Mason too, such beautiful uniforms.
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Post by trumpette123 on Oct 22, 2023 14:36:44 GMT -6
I do find it interesting that all 4 of the "next 4" were from panel 2. I get the need for a system to balance out having two judging panels, but I am not sure the current system is it. This really isn't directed at you, coleeich , but there are a number of posters here who put way too much stock into panels, and I would encourage everyone to just not look at them as much. They really don't matter in the big ways that many members of our community assume they do; they are merely a means to merge two separately-judged contest into one bulk-scored contest. I'm sure there are a number of instances at super regionals and grand nats where x bubble band would've scored two-tenths of a point higher on a different panel next to a direct competitor, but I have yet to be convinced that panel arguments are anything other than shades of grey & nuance. If you're a top band in Prelims, panels have nothing to do with that. If you're a bubble band in Prelims, you have to perform well and make your case regardless of which panel you are on. What is the argument here, that Lincoln-Way would have made Finals if they were on a different panel? Or Yukon, Bixby, Deer Creek, or Southmoore? How could anyone possibly demonstrate that beyond a feeling? What if the "last 4" in were really the best & most accurate 4 - does it matter that they were all from the same panel? What is the argument for suspicion - that Panel 1 was underscored? But it's the same panel that landed Centerville much higher than their Finals placement, the same panel that vaulted Union into the top half of Finals, the same panel that gave O'Fallon high enough numbers to beat Mason in multiple sub captions, the same panel that put Southmoore, Deer Creek, & Yukon all above Bixby. Or is the argument that Panel 2 was overscored? Well, that's the same panel that landed Castle in the bottom half Finals, buried Center Grove below their would-be Finals placement, and landed Edgewood below Western (who was on Panel 1). I've just never seen a convincing argument that panels really make or break who moves on - if a band feels they unequivocally should land in the top half of Finals, or should be ahead of their bubble neighbors and land in Finals at all, then said band needs to make that case strongly enough that either set of judges would agree. Everything else - "there is no way x band would have scored 8/10ths of a point behind y band if they had been on the same panel" - is murky shades of grey and a claim that is impossible to demonstrate. There are too many other variables, and it is an exercise in futility. What I would encourage everyone to pay attention to instead, at every Super Regional & GN, is how one set of judges (a panel) ranked a band, and how that determined where they fit in with other bubble bands regardless of panel. For example, both Panel 2 Music GE judges scored Noblesville exceptionally well, and that is what landed them in Finals. One of those Music GE numbers held up in Finals, so it seems those Prelims numbers weren't entirely off base. The judges from Panel 2 landed Choctaw in Finals as a result of their individual execution scores & Visual GE. The Ind Vis & Vis GE placements held up pretty well for Choctaw in Finals. Panel 1 clearly had a uniform opinion that the Oklahoma bands (outside of Union, who scored very well in GE, and Deer Creek, to some extent) were all unable to compete with their bubble neighbors across the board in GE. It is also interesting to me that the same panel of judges landed Lockport & Lincoln-Way .80 away from each other, which has not seemed to be the case in Illinois since pre-Covid, and how a uniform panel ranked all of the OK groups (outside of Choctaw, who was on a different panel). The direct comparisons that certain bands get on one panel across a massive Prelims contest are the much more interesting stories worth paying attention to. Looking at an overall score and comparing across panels for a group that made it into Finals is not that interesting - the "how they made it in" story that the subcaptions tell is where the meat is. THIS! I feel like this should be framed and pinned on the hornrank forum wall lol.
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Post by paddy on Oct 22, 2023 15:47:29 GMT -6
And don’t underestimate the wear and tear of hauling around those Texas sized egos. 😎 I have always said that Texas is the best marching band state and Indiana is the best marching band state per capita. It is a joy to watch groups from both states perform. Oklahoma might have them both beat per capita, or at least they will if the bands continue improving like they have been. I Oklahoma does have some very good bands as do other states like Kentucky and their outstanding small school bands. I’m just of the opinion that Indiana is amazingly deep and competitive across all school sizes for both marching band and winter guard/percussion/winds for their population size.
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Post by macwinlin on Oct 22, 2023 16:56:18 GMT -6
Oklahoma might have them both beat per capita, or at least they will if the bands continue improving like they have been. I Oklahoma does have some very good bands as do other states like Kentucky and their outstanding small school bands. I’m just of the opinion that Indiana is amazingly deep and competitive across all school sizes for both marching band and winter guard/percussion/winds for their population size. This. 100%. Oklahoma has a nice presence in the fall competitive world, but it pretty much falls flat beyond that. We need growth in the winter guard area, and the competitive percussion groups can be counted on 2 hands.
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Post by regimember on Oct 22, 2023 17:20:52 GMT -6
Oklahoma does have some very good bands as do other states like Kentucky and their outstanding small school bands. I’m just of the opinion that Indiana is amazingly deep and competitive across all school sizes for both marching band and winter guard/percussion/winds for their population size. This. 100%. Oklahoma has a nice presence in the fall competitive world, but it pretty much falls flat beyond that. We need growth in the winter guard area, and the competitive percussion groups can be counted on 2 hands. Agreed. Union has previously dominated both areas of the WGI world. Now with so many other groups having grown so drastically in size, we need to see more participation!
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Post by dbbandalum on Oct 22, 2023 21:35:07 GMT -6
Nice to see Union rebound after faltering a bit in previous years! Always been a fan of them
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Post by ilikeguard on Oct 22, 2023 22:36:22 GMT -6
Oklahoma does have some very good bands as do other states like Kentucky and their outstanding small school bands. I’m just of the opinion that Indiana is amazingly deep and competitive across all school sizes for both marching band and winter guard/percussion/winds for their population size. This. 100%. Oklahoma has a nice presence in the fall competitive world, but it pretty much falls flat beyond that. We need growth in the winter guard area, and the competitive percussion groups can be counted on 2 hands. Here’s hoping for a BA winter guard in the next few years after DB’s was so successful this last season 🤞🏻
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Post by hewhowaits on Oct 23, 2023 10:49:48 GMT -6
Mason that close to Brownsburg feels like someone just kicked a puppy in front of me Couldn't have said it better myself. Mason was just unreal to me tonight In two and a half weeks, the last 50 seconds of what you saw at Indy won't be there and the real closer/ending will be in place.
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Post by hewhowaits on Oct 23, 2023 10:58:39 GMT -6
Wait so Centerville drops from 8th place and 83.0 in prelims, to 11 and 80.8?? I get the panel is different but their show was louder, cleaner, had working mics, and was overall better. I’m confused regardless of judges changes yea i only recognize one name on the judging panel. 2021 finals i recognize a lot more notable names. def a factor for all 14 finalist. Not recognizing names on the panel is more a function of your level of exposure than the strength of the panel. Of the 15 judges at the contest (8 music, 6 visual, 1 chief): - All 15 names familiar to me
- 10 I could give you a decent recap of their background
- at least 7 I would know on sight out of context (i.e. not at a band competition)
- 4 or 5 I would consider greeting by their first name
- 2 (of the 4 who judged at field level this weekend) who greeted me by name before I spoke theirs
And I guarantee there are others on these forums who know many more judges much better than that.
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Post by trumpet300 on Oct 23, 2023 13:08:13 GMT -6
yea i only recognize one name on the judging panel. 2021 finals i recognize a lot more notable names. def a factor for all 14 finalist. Not recognizing names on the panel is more a function of your level of exposure than the strength of the panel. Of the 15 judges at the contest (8 music, 6 visual, 1 chief): - All 15 names familiar to me
- 10 I could give you a decent recap of their background
- at least 7 I would know on sight out of context (i.e. not at a band competition)
- 4 or 5 I would consider greeting by their first name
- 2 (of the 4 who judged at field level this weekend) who greeted me by name before I spoke theirs
And I guarantee there are others on these forums who know many more judges much better than that. This.
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Post by artsfan on Oct 23, 2023 18:58:54 GMT -6
I just had to pop in quickly and say Mason's show this year is absolutely, breath-takingly stunning. ..and I've not always been the biggest fan of Mason's shows. This is their best show since Meditations. Can they compete for the Eagle? Maybe....But, I've seen enough Mason shows to know that the last minute of the show we saw Saturday was just tacked on... and we will see something completely different at GN. Mason having a couple weeks to clean and perfect this show has me so excited. If they don't win Visual GE, it will be a travesty, as this is the BEST designed show of the season.
Other Thoughts:
NEVER count out Centerville or Center Grove. I saw all of the Oklahoma hype leading up to this regional and I really enjoyed those bands, but CG and CJB have 40 years of success...and both are former grand national champions. That type of legacy is hard to come by and maintain...and many former powerhouses haven't been able to do it. I'm looking at you Westerville South, Lake Park, Westfield, etc.
With that said, Centerville should review PCEP 2006 for a better arrangement of Miranda. They currently have some weird tempo issues between the soloist and ensemble. Again, review PCEP 2006....Heck, I'll even tell you that it starts at the 4:49 minute mark. :-)
Castle completely undervalued and underscored in my opinion. Same goes for Lincoln.
Fishers is Fun!
Indiana has great bands and subpar vocalists.
Welcome to Finals (super edition) Lakota West and Noblesville!
How I saw it:
Carmel Avon Mason (tied for my favorite show this season with Rouse) Castle Brownsburg O'Fallon Fishers Union Lincoln Centerville Center Grove Lakota West Noblesville Choctaw
Tah for now.
PS...also very familiar and friendly with the adjudication panel. They for the most part got it right.. in a very subjective activity.
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Post by inbandfan on Oct 23, 2023 19:54:12 GMT -6
Honestly I think this is more inline with how the track records were pre-covid. I do remember this trend, but I thought post-Covid they had turned the corner to being a somewhat consistent GN finalist band especially after last year’s appearance in GN finals. Still putting in great work and fun shows!
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