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Post by mikekyu on Nov 4, 2023 15:45:58 GMT -6
Absolutely pathetic judging to have L. D. Bell in the top half. Being in finals is even questionable with Westwood, Timber Creek, and Cedar Ridge being left out. Bell was fine, but there is nothing special about them and even the bands that performed around them were just as good. I guess their name somehow got them extra points? I watched the entire prelims and would not have had them in. Fermented grapes are amazing. Sour grapes are not... make booze not BOOs.
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Post by salvation on Nov 4, 2023 15:49:22 GMT -6
Absolutely pathetic judging to have L. D. Bell in the top half. Being in finals is even questionable with Westwood, Timber Creek, and Cedar Ridge being left out. Bell was fine, but there is nothing special about them and even the bands that performed around them were just as good. I guess their name somehow got them extra points? I watched the entire prelims and would not have had them in. Absolutely pathetic of you to make this comment, if you paid attention to their prelims run and their trajectory you know that this was a possibility. Shame on you.
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Post by regimember on Nov 4, 2023 15:57:34 GMT -6
Absolutely pathetic judging to have L. D. Bell in the top half. Being in finals is even questionable with Westwood, Timber Creek, and Cedar Ridge being left out. Bell was fine, but there is nothing special about them and even the bands that performed around them were just as good. I guess their name somehow got them extra points? I watched the entire prelims and would not have had them in. Not the vibe... L take. Can't imagine the insane amount of work that LD Bell has had to put in just to barely be up to par with the "standards" and prejudice that is carried with their name. I absolutely understand a rich history but in this case I don't think its as you have implied. Groups like this who have had a falling out after carrying a rich program history for a long time, come back to an extremely harsh audience/ judging environment with everyone comparing you to what you "used" to be, making it extra hard to make up for the ground you've lost. With that being said big kudos to the LD Bell band for this huge accomplishment, along with Bridgeland, Leander, Westlake, and Wakeland. These performers deserve all of the joy they can get, its not easy getting on this stage for any single one of these groups, and the talent and hard work was present from start to end of all preliminary performances. So congrats to all performers, directors and volunteers, you all deserve some major credit.
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Post by das88 on Nov 4, 2023 16:04:17 GMT -6
To me, The Woodlands shot at a caption next week is GE. Maybe, with a new judging panel, they will rebound tonight.
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Post by statechamp1239 on Nov 4, 2023 16:11:51 GMT -6
Also, I could be wrong here, but isn’t this Bridgeland’s first time in San Antonio finals? If so, that’s huge for them! It is Bridgeland first time at SR Finals. They opened in 2017, and they have become Regional Class Champion, Regional Bronze Medalist Champion, UIL State Finalist, UIL State Participate since 2021.
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Post by regimember on Nov 4, 2023 16:17:19 GMT -6
Okay so unpopular, popular opinions: - Marcus could take first - Rouse possibly medaling - The Woodlands is Upside Down and their guard is running the show as its all about them - I can see Leander jumping the line to top half - Ronald Reagan comeback? - Wakeland takes the gold 😍
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Post by vidal28rdg on Nov 4, 2023 18:12:24 GMT -6
Absolutely pathetic judging to have L. D. Bell in the top half. Being in finals is even questionable with Westwood, Timber Creek, and Cedar Ridge being left out. Bell was fine, but there is nothing special about them and even the bands that performed around them were just as good. I guess their name somehow got them extra points? I watched the entire prelims and would not have had them in. Ew. I had my objections to Bell being in finals, but best not to phrase them like this, don’t try to attack the students here or voice goofy conspiracies, always a rule of thumb!!
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Post by hostrauser on Nov 4, 2023 18:36:53 GMT -6
Absolutely pathetic judging to have L. D. Bell in the top half. Being in finals is even questionable with Westwood, Timber Creek, and Cedar Ridge being left out. Bell was fine, but there is nothing special about them and even the bands that performed around them were just as good. I guess their name somehow got them extra points? I watched the entire prelims and would not have had them in. When in doubt, the seven judges with decades and decades of experience between them are probably right and you are probably wrong. Even if you're not in doubt this is still true.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 4, 2023 19:38:26 GMT -6
Bridgeland bridgeland bridgeland please come to grand nationals PLEASE
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 4, 2023 19:38:58 GMT -6
Bridgeland bridgeland bridgeland please come to grand nationals PLEASE Sorry meant to post this in finals i was just experiencing so much feeling
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Post by bigtrombone on Nov 4, 2023 20:51:21 GMT -6
Bridgeland bridgeland bridgeland please come to grand nationals PLEASE Sorry meant to post this in finals i was just experiencing so much feeling Well, if what yayband914 said in the Grand Nationals thread comes to pass, we might see them as early as next year.
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Post by yayband914 on Nov 4, 2023 20:51:52 GMT -6
Sorry meant to post this in finals i was just experiencing so much feeling Well, if what yayband914 said in the Grand Nationals thread comes to pass, we might see them as early as next year. To clarify — I have NO inside T — just a strong feeling.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Nov 5, 2023 7:03:50 GMT -6
Well you got part of the post right at least.
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Post by LeanderMomma on Nov 5, 2023 7:06:47 GMT -6
To me, The Woodlands shot at a caption next week is GE. Maybe, with a new judging panel, they will rebound tonight. their visual was phenomenal. My eyes were glued to the similarity of body movements from each individual marching member. It was like they were cloned. Absolutely magnificent.
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Post by yayband914 on Nov 5, 2023 10:11:05 GMT -6
Can we talk about Cedar Park popping a 90.00 as the very first band on? JEEZ. They set the bar high!
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 5, 2023 13:50:15 GMT -6
Can we talk about Cedar Park popping a 90.00 as the very first band on? JEEZ. They set the bar high! Big first band scores lead to records at the top.
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Post by regimember on Nov 5, 2023 14:35:19 GMT -6
Can we talk about Cedar Park popping a 90.00 as the very first band on? JEEZ. They set the bar high! Big first band scores lead to records at the top. Me when I have to work in all other scores of the bands who out performed Cedar Park ABOVE the 90 that I started them out with... but then I realize there are more than 14 of those band(s) and my margins don't allow me to go any higher so NOW I have to decide what groups to score more shallowly.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 5, 2023 15:30:30 GMT -6
Big first band scores lead to records at the top. Me when I have to work in all other scores of the bands who out performed Cedar Park ABOVE the 90 that I started them out with... but then I realize there are more than 14 of those band(s) and my margins don't allow me to go any higher so NOW I have to decide what groups to score more shallowly. Or drop Cedar Park to a more reasonable level since what is written down initially doesn't have to stay the score given.
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Post by regimember on Nov 5, 2023 18:23:37 GMT -6
Me when I have to work in all other scores of the bands who out performed Cedar Park ABOVE the 90 that I started them out with... but then I realize there are more than 14 of those band(s) and my margins don't allow me to go any higher so NOW I have to decide what groups to score more shallowly. Or drop Cedar Park to a more reasonable level since what is written down initially doesn't have to stay the score given. Im pretty positive any changes of such can only be conducted through the chief judge, no?
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 5, 2023 19:19:38 GMT -6
Or drop Cedar Park to a more reasonable level since what is written down initially doesn't have to stay the score given. Im pretty positive any changes of such can only be conducted through the chief judge, no? This is not the case. I've seen tally sheets for judges where they have a score written down for Band A, which has been crossed out and dropped a tenth, crossed out again and dropped another 2 tenths, then crossed out yet again and raised by .05 as more bands of very similar performance achievement are observed. It's all about getting the bands in the right order and appropriate relative scores, not about creating an absolute number.
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Post by regimember on Nov 5, 2023 21:18:03 GMT -6
Im pretty positive any changes of such can only be conducted through the chief judge, no? This is not the case. I've seen tally sheets for judges where they have a score written down for Band A, which has been crossed out and dropped a tenth, crossed out again and dropped another 2 tenths, then crossed out yet again and raised by .05 as more bands of very similar performance achievement are observed. It's all about getting the bands in the right order and appropriate relative scores, not about creating an absolute number. Probably should've been more clear. In the case of bands in the same panel being on different days when the judges have fresh score sheets. Creating an absolute number obviously was never in the equation, but achieving as accurate of placements as possible was. Prelims in judging world = which 14 bands are most worthy of moving on to finals before ever having number accuracy in mind, which I know you probably already know, but it does give the question a more analytical take, as it is not a shallow process.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Nov 6, 2023 11:43:18 GMT -6
I so want them to take this regional. As much as I want to see Vandy take the title, I really enjoy Marcus' show a whole lot more soo I'm a little broken on who I'd want to win lol Marcus was wonderful. There are camps that feel should Marcus had a better slot or closed the evening they would have scored higher than TWHS. Prelims adjudicates agrees. Vandy really was too far ahead to catch iMO. Even just a full point above 2nd seemed generous. 🤷♂️
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Nov 6, 2023 12:41:04 GMT -6
Absolutely pathetic judging to have L. D. Bell in the top half. Being in finals is even questionable with Westwood, Timber Creek, and Cedar Ridge being left out. Bell was fine, but there is nothing special about them and even the bands that performed around them were just as good. I guess their name somehow got them extra points? I watched the entire prelims and would not have had them in. When in doubt, the seven judges with decades and decades of experience between them are probably right and you are probably wrong. Even if you're not in doubt this is still true. Depends on what "you" intend, I think. (Not you, hostrauser, but the generic "you" to whom you refer.) Within some small margin of error, the experienced judges are almost certain to be right about which bands are meeting the required criteria for success and the relative order of said achievement.* And that subject is what the HornRank site is centrally about. Nonetheless, each of is still equally right to disagree with those criteria -- as I did (and I believe you did to, to some degree), regarding Broken Arrow's championship show a couple years ago -- but we should be honest with ourselves about what we're doing. The numbers used by BOA and other circuits are a kind of shortcut that's often not available to people trying to determine value in other arts, and the experienced professionals in those arts like as not would scoff at the marching band world for having a "crutch" like scores. And speaking just for myself, when I find myself too much in agreement with the judges, I worry that I'm succumbing to groupthink. (Obviously the scorn in the original post to which you were responding was uncalled for.) *And by their own admission, even doing this, BOA's judges need two or three passes to get it completely "right," thus the prelims -- (semifinals) -- finals format. I imagine if the lower-ranking bands could likewise get a second viewing, their standings too would shake out a bit differently than the initial prelims results.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Nov 6, 2023 14:07:00 GMT -6
How did Vandy 2023 not get into the GOAT conversation this week?
This show arguably 4 pointed everyone across the country this Saturday. It was spectacular. Does TWHS or Hebron need to win Nat’s first? Do their guards need to field traditional rifles?
Asking for a friend 😎
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 6, 2023 15:02:39 GMT -6
How did Vandy 2023 not get into the GOAT conversation this week? This show arguably 4 pointed everyone across the country this Saturday. It was spectacular. Does TWHS or Hebron need to win Nat’s first? Do their guards need to field traditional rifles? Asking for a friend 😎 A little perspective - They only beat 14th AT THIS SHOW by less than 10 points. If the first band in finals had been scored as an 86.65 rather than 90.65, we'd be talking about Vandegrift winning with a "ridiculously low" 93.60. That being said, I ranked Vandegrift at number one this week on my ballot and they'll stay there if a Texas band wins GN. The MAY stay at number one if another band goes home with Kevin, depending on the relative placement of those same Texas bands that Vandegrift just beat twice in San Antonio.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Nov 6, 2023 15:41:59 GMT -6
How did Vandy 2023 not get into the GOAT conversation this week? This show arguably 4 pointed everyone across the country this Saturday. It was spectacular. Does TWHS or Hebron need to win Nat’s first? Do their guards need to field traditional rifles? Asking for a friend 😎 A little perspective - They only beat 14th AT THIS SHOW by less than 10 points. If the first band in finals had been scored as an 86.65 rather than 90.65, we'd be talking about Vandegrift winning with a "ridiculously low" 93.60. That being said, I ranked Vandegrift at number one this week on my ballot and they'll stay there if a Texas band wins GN. The MAY stay at number one if another band goes home with Kevin, depending on the relative placement of those same Texas bands that Vandegrift just beat twice in San Antonio. Absolutizing one circuit and the individual scores at one given competition to demarcate your POV (while understandable) is of no persuasion to the overall picture. Vandegrift 2023 would have scored highest at US Bands any state circuit especially ISSMA with this past weekend production! I can get into a huge diatribe of score comparisons (I do have time) but I ask. Why do you not think that Vandy 2023 doesn’t deserve conversions amongst,… let’s say LD Bell 2007, Lassiter 2002? The simultaneous demand of music and visual execution along with grace and pageantry alone meets and exceeds. I mean most of this show Vandy marched backward while executing a difficult book on par or better than PCEP 1999 imo! I ask. What does it have to do with who takes the Eagle this year since we all know that the depth of country’s marching band landscape has gotten far more competitive as the years have progressed? Asking for another friend 😂
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Post by seafoodbuffet on Nov 6, 2023 15:58:06 GMT -6
How did Vandy 2023 not get into the GOAT conversation this week? This show arguably 4 pointed everyone across the country this Saturday. It was spectacular. Does TWHS or Hebron need to win Nat’s first? Do their guards need to field traditional rifles? Asking for a friend 😎 My two cents on this is that Vandy’s show, unlike say Hebron ‘21, lacks the immediate wow factor that makes audiences respond to it. A lot of what makes Spotlight impressive is that they make really difficult drill look effortless, while playing a difficult, but not flashy, music book. And there’s no props (other than the light up stage). I think like a well executed magic show, you don’t quite realize how incredible what you’ve just witnessed was until you think more about what it must have taken to pull it off. I don’t think I’m qualified to judge, but for me, I’d put this show as standing equal with Secret World, Edge of Eternity, and even Penstriped. I’m not sure how many people would agree with that.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Nov 6, 2023 16:13:02 GMT -6
How did Vandy 2023 not get into the GOAT conversation this week? This show arguably 4 pointed everyone across the country this Saturday. It was spectacular. Does TWHS or Hebron need to win Nat’s first? Do their guards need to field traditional rifles? Asking for a friend 😎 My two cents on this is that Vandy’s show, unlike say Hebron ‘21, lacks the immediate wow factor that makes audiences respond to it. A lot of what makes Spotlight impressive is that they make really difficult drill look effortless, while playing a difficult, but not flashy, music book. And there’s no props (other than the light up stage). I think like a well executed magic show, you don’t quite realize how incredible what you’ve just witnessed was until you think more about what it must have taken to pull it off. I don’t think I’m qualified to judge, but for me, I’d put this show as standing equal with Secret World, Edge of Eternity, and even Penstriped. I’m not sure how many people would agree with that. While I think those shows you listed merit a conversation amongst the best ever. Oh wait. Actually I do think they are the best overall marching HS productions in effect to date but Lassiter 02 and PCEP 99 (although won’t meet todays standards) were way ahead of their times! Very special productions Vandegrift 23 just hits on all levels iMO. Maybe I’m just still in love and in my feels over this weekend? I didn’t want to like them but when I saw this show live it changed for me. Everyone in the Alamodome felt that greatness.
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Post by hewhowaits on Nov 6, 2023 16:14:30 GMT -6
A little perspective - They only beat 14th AT THIS SHOW by less than 10 points. If the first band in finals had been scored as an 86.65 rather than 90.65, we'd be talking about Vandegrift winning with a "ridiculously low" 93.60. That being said, I ranked Vandegrift at number one this week on my ballot and they'll stay there if a Texas band wins GN. The MAY stay at number one if another band goes home with Kevin, depending on the relative placement of those same Texas bands that Vandegrift just beat twice in San Antonio. Absolutizing one circuit and the individual scores at one given competition to demarcate your POV (while understandable) is of no persuasion to the overall picture. Vandegrift 2023 would have scored highest at US Bands any state circuit especially ISSMA with this past weekend production! I can get into a huge diatribe of score comparisons (I do have time) but I ask. Why do you not think that Vandy 2023 doesn’t deserve conversions amongst,… let’s say LD Bell 2007, Lassiter 2002? The simultaneous demand of music and visual execution along with grace and pageantry alone meets and exceeds. I mean most of this show Vandy marched backward while executing a difficult book on par or better than PCEP 1999 imo! I ask. What does it have to do with who takes the Eagle this year since we all know that the depth of country’s marching band landscape has gotten far more competitive as the years have progressed? Asking for another friend 😂 Can you hear the woodwinds? Do they play anything at a volume less than forte? Asking for several thousand friends. As for what it has to do with who takes the Eagle: - If a Texas band wins, we "know" that Vandegrift is better.
- If a non-Texas band wins but by very little over the Texas bands, we have evidence that Vandegrift is better.
- If a non-Texas band dominates the field of Texas representatives, we can only make passing comparison of Vandegrift and that band.
If there are multiple bands in the conversation for any given year, none of those bands stand out as belonging in the realm of GOAT.
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Post by TXHillCountryBands on Nov 6, 2023 17:07:06 GMT -6
Absolutizing one circuit and the individual scores at one given competition to demarcate your POV (while understandable) is of no persuasion to the overall picture. Vandegrift 2023 would have scored highest at US Bands any state circuit especially ISSMA with this past weekend production! I can get into a huge diatribe of score comparisons (I do have time) but I ask. Why do you not think that Vandy 2023 doesn’t deserve conversions amongst,… let’s say LD Bell 2007, Lassiter 2002? The simultaneous demand of music and visual execution along with grace and pageantry alone meets and exceeds. I mean most of this show Vandy marched backward while executing a difficult book on par or better than PCEP 1999 imo! I ask. What does it have to do with who takes the Eagle this year since we all know that the depth of country’s marching band landscape has gotten far more competitive as the years have progressed? Asking for another friend 😂 Can you hear the woodwinds? Do they play anything at a volume less than forte? Asking for several thousand friends. As for what it has to do with who takes the Eagle: - If a Texas band wins, we "know" that Vandegrift is better.
- If a non-Texas band wins but by very little over the Texas bands, we have evidence that Vandegrift is better.
- If a non-Texas band dominates the field of Texas representatives, we can only make passing comparison of Vandegrift and that band.
If there are multiple bands in the conversation for any given year, none of those bands stand out as belonging in the realm of GOAT. There are a few of your comments that I question:: * absolutizing one circuit (who placed what or where) is a logical fallacy that appeals to Authority. Their are other circuits and adjudication philosophies to consider. *playing softer absolutely doesn’t mean better. It’s like saying because you can play fortissimo wonderfully full gives one preeminence. Marching band is not a concert hall. Woodwinds usually have to use more air to fill their outdoor space which makes them a bit louder in effect. *What does it matter if a Texas band wins at Nats. It’s not like Nat’s represent the Top 12 finalist in the country year over year? Maybe I’m missing something? Really not trying to be argumentative and I saw these particular rebuttals coming a mile away as it’s probably the consensus on this forum. Maybe I’ll bring up the Vandy GOAT argument after Nats again 🤷♂️ *any response please no copying and pasting select lines to beat up. Let’s keep the whole of the thread going as various positions and points(pro and con) were made as a whole. Thanks
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