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Post by paddy on Oct 22, 2023 4:08:29 GMT -6
Pretty sure it was Evansville north Yes. It was shockingly warmer in Evansville than the rest of the group at Pike.
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Post by das88 on Oct 22, 2023 9:02:58 GMT -6
Missed by .35 with the penalty. I have some very strong feelings that I’m not going to vocalize here. Those kids don’t deserve this. Totally agree. This does not represent the hard work and skill the students displayed during their performance. They had a state finalist show, no doubt about it. I want to understand this correctly. The weather/wind caused the "props" to move into the end zone which caused the penalty. Castle's set up was no different than previous ISSMA events this year? If correct, something out of their control caused the penalty?
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Post by madhatter on Oct 22, 2023 11:09:58 GMT -6
Totally agree. This does not represent the hard work and skill the students displayed during their performance. They had a state finalist show, no doubt about it. I want to understand this correctly. The weather/wind caused the "props" to move into the end zone which caused the penalty. Castle's set up was no different than previous ISSMA events this year? If correct, something out of their control caused the penalty? As I understand it, the back corner of side one Castle had a small ladder for the Drum Major to direct the band while facing away. It was placed exactly the same spot as each competition before, but it was purportedly "hanging over" the endzone line, and the T&P judge noted it as a violation. The official admitted it did not impede the next performing band in any way, and they had not complained about it. I understand having rules, so penalize the score to some degree, but it makes no sense that one judge can take 3 pts off a highly competitive program and suddenly end the season for 250+ band members like that. Something needs to be done by ISSMA to not have this happen like this and also correct this outcome somehow.
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bflat
Full Member
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Post by bflat on Oct 22, 2023 11:13:43 GMT -6
Totally agree. This does not represent the hard work and skill the students displayed during their performance. They had a state finalist show, no doubt about it. I want to understand this correctly. The weather/wind caused the "props" to move into the end zone which caused the penalty. Castle's set up was no different than previous ISSMA events this year? If correct, something out of their control caused the penalty? If that's the case, then why wasn't Homestead penalized for adults removing half their props from the field during their show? Serious question, not being snarky. I know there have been years that adults were allowed to stand behind props due to wind and there were definitely some safety concerns (especially the one prop that was heading toward the field commander stand in the back field). But the right field props didn't seem to be in the way of marching and I would have thought the adults could get the flags out from them and leave them in place. Other props could have been stood behind rather than removed from the field. They just seemed to do more on the field than I would have expected, and if Castle was penalized for a prop or flags being blown into the end zone out of their control, that seems off given what Homestead was allowed to do.
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Post by TeamIndiana on Oct 22, 2023 11:18:54 GMT -6
I want to understand this correctly. The weather/wind caused the "props" to move into the end zone which caused the penalty. Castle's set up was no different than previous ISSMA events this year? If correct, something out of their control caused the penalty? If that's the case, then why wasn't Homestead penalized for adults removing half their props from the field during their show? Serious question, not being snarky. I know there have been years that adults were allowed to stand behind props due to wind and there were definitely some safety concerns (especially the one prop that was heading toward the field commander stand in the back field). But the right field props didn't seem to be in the way of marching and I would have thought the adults could get the flags out from them and leave them in place. Other props could have been stood behind rather than removed from the field. They just seemed to do more on the field than I would have expected, and if Castle was penalized for a prop or flags being blown into the end zone out of their control, that seems off given what Homestead was allowed to do. My understanding is Homestead staff confirmed with the field judge that they could send the pit dads on to remove the props since they were a major safety hazard to the students. The field judges approved and they ran on and removed them.
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Post by guardmom2021 on Oct 22, 2023 11:26:52 GMT -6
If that's the case, then why wasn't Homestead penalized for adults removing half their props from the field during their show? Serious question, not being snarky. I know there have been years that adults were allowed to stand behind props due to wind and there were definitely some safety concerns (especially the one prop that was heading toward the field commander stand in the back field). But the right field props didn't seem to be in the way of marching and I would have thought the adults could get the flags out from them and leave them in place. Other props could have been stood behind rather than removed from the field. They just seemed to do more on the field than I would have expected, and if Castle was penalized for a prop or flags being blown into the end zone out of their control, that seems off given what Homestead was allowed to do. My understanding is Homestead staff confirmed with the field judge that they could send the pit dads on to remove the props since they were a major safety hazard to the students. The field judges approved and they ran on and removed them. Correct. staff was told they can go on to the field due to the wind as long as they came back off immediately as they could not stay on the field.
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Post by bandmom2 on Oct 22, 2023 11:27:07 GMT -6
If that's the case, then why wasn't Homestead penalized for adults removing half their props from the field during their show? Serious question, not being snarky. I know there have been years that adults were allowed to stand behind props due to wind and there were definitely some safety concerns (especially the one prop that was heading toward the field commander stand in the back field). But the right field props didn't seem to be in the way of marching and I would have thought the adults could get the flags out from them and leave them in place. Other props could have been stood behind rather than removed from the field. They just seemed to do more on the field than I would have expected, and if Castle was penalized for a prop or flags being blown into the end zone out of their control, that seems off given what Homestead was allowed to do. My understanding is Homestead staff confirmed with the field judge that they could send the pit dads on to remove the props since they were a major safety hazard to the students. The field judges approved and they ran on and removed them. This is exactly what happened. The parents did not move until the field judge and director on the track gave them the go to do so. Homestead students (and I’m sure other bands’ students as well) were very upset by what happened to Castle and felt it wasn’t necessarily fair to penalize them for weather beyond their control.
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bflat
Full Member
Posts: 29
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Post by bflat on Oct 22, 2023 11:27:39 GMT -6
If that's the case, then why wasn't Homestead penalized for adults removing half their props from the field during their show? Serious question, not being snarky. I know there have been years that adults were allowed to stand behind props due to wind and there were definitely some safety concerns (especially the one prop that was heading toward the field commander stand in the back field). But the right field props didn't seem to be in the way of marching and I would have thought the adults could get the flags out from them and leave them in place. Other props could have been stood behind rather than removed from the field. They just seemed to do more on the field than I would have expected, and if Castle was penalized for a prop or flags being blown into the end zone out of their control, that seems off given what Homestead was allowed to do. My understanding is Homestead staff confirmed with the field judge that they could send the pit dads on to remove the props since they were a major safety hazard to the students. The field judges approved and they ran on and removed them. Gotcha, thanks for the explanation. And I apparently was typing while someone else was explaining what happened with Castle and that it wasn't something being blown around out of their control. Still a crazy turn of events....
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 22, 2023 12:40:49 GMT -6
It’s not even a state anywhere near me but I just feel heartbroken for Castle! I don’t understand why this type of penalty (3points?!) was even allowed to happen!
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Post by OldSchoolTrumpet on Oct 22, 2023 12:49:02 GMT -6
My understanding is Homestead staff confirmed with the field judge that they could send the pit dads on to remove the props since they were a major safety hazard to the students. The field judges approved and they ran on and removed them. Gotcha, thanks for the explanation. And I apparently was typing while someone else was explaining what happened with Castle and that it wasn't something being blown around out of their control. Still a crazy turn of events.... Right. It wasn't (apparently) a weather-related incident for Castle. But, if they had previously set up this was at an ISSMA event (Regionals) and not been penalized/warned, then it seems harsh to suddenly enforce the rule here. Though I guess a previous judging panel's oversight doesn't just make it no longer a penalty. Still, pretty rough.
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Post by bandmom2 on Oct 22, 2023 13:00:22 GMT -6
Gotcha, thanks for the explanation. And I apparently was typing while someone else was explaining what happened with Castle and that it wasn't something being blown around out of their control. Still a crazy turn of events.... Right. It wasn't (apparently) a weather-related incident for Castle. But, if they had previously set up this was at an ISSMA event (Regionals) and not been penalized/warned, then it seems harsh to suddenly enforce the rule here. Though I guess a previous judging panel's oversight doesn't just make it no longer a penalty. Still, pretty rough. Agreed. If the rule had been enforced at the regional, Castle would have gone through anyway (as Avon and Brownsburg did with their penalties) and not set it that way again.
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Post by TeamIndiana on Oct 22, 2023 13:01:06 GMT -6
It’s not even a state anywhere near me but I just feel heartbroken for Castle! I don’t understand why this type of penalty (3points?!) was even allowed to happen! Because it’s ISSMA 😵💫
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 22, 2023 13:05:48 GMT -6
It’s not even a state anywhere near me but I just feel heartbroken for Castle! I don’t understand why this type of penalty (3points?!) was even allowed to happen! Because it’s ISSMA 😵💫 sounds a LOT like UIL at times. They must be brothers. 😬
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Post by 70sguardchick on Oct 22, 2023 13:16:49 GMT -6
It’s not even a state anywhere near me but I just feel heartbroken for Castle! I don’t understand why this type of penalty (3points?!) was even allowed to happen! Because it’s ISSMA 😵💫 Calling ISSMA rules arcane would be a compliment. They also do not publish them publicly, so only directors and judges have access to what they truly are.
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Post by das88 on Oct 22, 2023 13:40:24 GMT -6
I want to understand this correctly. The weather/wind caused the "props" to move into the end zone which caused the penalty. Castle's set up was no different than previous ISSMA events this year? If correct, something out of their control caused the penalty? If that's the case, then why wasn't Homestead penalized for adults removing half their props from the field during their show? Serious question, not being snarky. I know there have been years that adults were allowed to stand behind props due to wind and there were definitely some safety concerns (especially the one prop that was heading toward the field commander stand in the back field). But the right field props didn't seem to be in the way of marching and I would have thought the adults could get the flags out from them and leave them in place. Other props could have been stood behind rather than removed from the field. They just seemed to do more on the field than I would have expected, and if Castle was penalized for a prop or flags being blown into the end zone out of their control, that seems off given what Homestead was allowed to do. Is the names of judging panel known? Published somewhere?
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Post by LeanderMomma on Oct 22, 2023 14:05:37 GMT -6
Calling ISSMA rules arcane would be a compliment. They also do not publish them publicly, so only directors and judges have access to what they truly are. wow!
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Post by clariphone on Oct 22, 2023 15:59:27 GMT -6
are class c scores going to be posted at some point?
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Post by 70sguardchick on Oct 22, 2023 16:18:07 GMT -6
are class c scores going to be posted at some point? ISSMA does not publicly release scores, but you can probable find placement info in this thread or more likely on INBands. Usually disguised as a weather report…..
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Post by ethanv1987 on Oct 22, 2023 17:24:02 GMT -6
That’s a heartbreaker for sure. Hopefully Castle can shake it off and not let it affect their performance tonight. If it affected their performance tonight, it was in a positive direction. Castle students did not know about state finals until after their super regional performance was already over
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Post by 70sguardchick on Oct 22, 2023 17:36:16 GMT -6
If it affected their performance tonight, it was in a positive direction. Caslte students did not know about state finals until after their super regional performance was already over The directors and parents that I was by in the stands knew and were very emotional.
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Post by antoniopenderas on Oct 22, 2023 20:25:52 GMT -6
Does anyone know when scores will be posted?
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Post by guardmom2021 on Oct 22, 2023 21:05:22 GMT -6
Caslte students did not know about state finals until after their super regional performance was already over The directors and parents that I was by in the stands knew and were very emotional. I was working BOA and the parents with the kids found out while in warm ups. I remember standing with a couple and didn't believe it either until we both looked it up. They only knew they didn't make it but not why yet. The kids did not know. Truly heartbreaking.
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Post by dbbandalum on Oct 22, 2023 22:06:13 GMT -6
3pt penalty. their props fell into the endzone because of wind I'm unfamiliar with ISSMA judging and rules, but this just seems a little absurd to me. Is there a reason the penalty is so harsh for things the performers can't control? This happened to Avon and Brownsburg at regionals too.
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Post by rollstep5x8 on Oct 23, 2023 4:13:01 GMT -6
I am sick to my stomach about this! Castle did not deserve this 😥 I agree! Where can I get a copy of the current ISSMA rules and the point values assigned to each penalty? There should be lots of people on here that have access to it. Surely each band receives a copy of it before each contest as a refresher so they know what is expected! If not, it is unfair to have a contest where the participants aren't aware of what is being judged. What actions (that you are aware of) are being taken to get answers? This must be escalated and not accepted and then we move on kind of thing. Covid was enough of a season killer for these kids. The seniors can't go out like this!
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Post by dcitop on Oct 23, 2023 4:34:30 GMT -6
I am sick to my stomach about this! Castle did not deserve this 😥 I agree! Where can I get a copy of the current ISSMA rules and the point values assigned to each penalty? There should be lots of people on here that have access to it. Surely each band receives a copy of it before each contest as a refresher so they know what is expected! If not, it is unfair to have a contest where the participants aren't aware of what is being judged. What actions (that you are aware of) are being taken to get answers? This must be escalated and not accepted and then we move on kind of thing. Covid was enough of a season killer for these kids. The seniors can't go out like this! It is very accessible to all directors under ISSMAs Directors Only area of their website. There is also a rules refresher that is sent out each summer. The end zone policy is not a new policy, yet somehow has been violated at least 3x this season by multiple Class A bands (as is publicly known). ISSMA Field Supervisors are in charge of rule.enforcement, not "judges" per se. The wind-related adult assistance policy was also sent out by the ISSMA office and refreshed to all directors late in the week. Adults may enter the field to ensure props do not cause injury but must evac once they are neutralized or removed. Sounds like other bands did that correctly. The.Castle situation is not a wind-related penalty as is being speculated. It is placement of a DM podium. Other Class A bands have been penalized for the same violation earlier this season as well.
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Post by rollstep5x8 on Oct 23, 2023 4:42:07 GMT -6
Where can I get a copy of the current ISSMA rules and the point values assigned to each penalty? I want to know how one judge has the power to knock off 3 pts due to one penalty and end a season like they did with Castle? There should be lots of people on here that have access to it. Surely each band receives a copy of it before each contest as a refresher so they know what is expected! If not, it is unfair to have a contest where the participants aren't aware of what is being judged. What actions (that you are aware of) are being taken to get answers? Who is leading the charge? This must be escalated and not accepted and then we move on kind of thing. Covid was enough of a season killer for these kids. The seniors can't go out like this! #castletakeastand
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Post by 70sguardchick on Oct 23, 2023 5:19:36 GMT -6
Where can I get a copy of the current ISSMA rules and the point values assigned to each penalty? I want to know how one judge has the power to knock off 3 pts due to one penalty and end a season like they did with Castle? There should be lots of people on here that have access to it. Surely each band receives a copy of it before each contest as a refresher so they know what is expected! If not, it is unfair to have a contest where the participants aren't aware of what is being judged. What actions (that you are aware of) are being taken to get answers? Who is leading the charge? This must be escalated and not accepted and then we move on kind of thing. Covid was enough of a season killer for these kids. The seniors can't go out like this! #castletakeastand ISSMA doesn’t publish its rules. It gives directors access via the website.
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Post by altosandclarinets on Oct 23, 2023 5:23:21 GMT -6
Where can I get a copy of the current ISSMA rules and the point values assigned to each penalty? I want to know how one judge has the power to knock off 3 pts due to one penalty and end a season like they did with Castle? There should be lots of people on here that have access to it. Surely each band receives a copy of it before each contest as a refresher so they know what is expected! If not, it is unfair to have a contest where the participants aren't aware of what is being judged. What actions (that you are aware of) are being taken to get answers? Who is leading the charge? This must be escalated and not accepted and then we move on kind of thing. Covid was enough of a season killer for these kids. The seniors can't go out like this! #castletakeastand Realistically, there’s nothing that you can do. It was a field supervisors call not ours. Bands get penalized that’s just how it works… do I personally think that a 3 point penalty was valid? No I 100% do not.however the penalty still stands and I think you fail to remember these judges SHOULDNT care about a bands season or reputation when judging. Do you want the judge to be bias? “Oh you’re castle so I’ll only give you a point off where I gave other bands 3 points off”. That seems even worse to me. All that matters is what happens on that field to the supervisors and judges. The penalty remained the same for brownsburg and Avon at regionals so if the did in fact place a podium somewhere they should have then they reserve the same penalty to make it fair. Theres nothing we can do about it, it’s over and done. If I could let them back in I would in a heartbeat but there’s nothing that can be done anymore…
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Post by paddy on Oct 23, 2023 5:32:25 GMT -6
Just so there is some clarity here (and again I am a strident critic of ISSMA) this isn’t an “ISSMA rule” in the sense that ISSMA isn’t an amorphous cloak and dagger group who governs the organization as a third party. This is a rule put in place by the membership of ISSMA and the board of ISSMA who are predominately music educators and school administrators with music backgrounds.
If the rules are a problem the directors can fix them. Avon and Castle have representatives on the state board.
Another thing…
If I was a band director and heard that someone took a penalty for that infraction I would have reviewed my entire show to make sure I didn’t have an issue. Especially if I had a show design that got close to that end zone at all.
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Post by rollstep5x8 on Oct 23, 2023 5:44:37 GMT -6
That's not entirely true. Your by-laws state otherwise and I hope this issue gets pressed as far as it needs to. Why 3 points and how does one field supervisor get to determine that? Let's say it was a placement issue? Why have placement of field props not been judged consistently over the course of the season and allowed at other events, but being enforced now? This needs to be addressed! You know these shows are built using muscle memory and a prop isn't just going to change positions at one of the most important performances of the season. Nothing you can do? Maybe get a job you actually care about!
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