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Post by hewhowaits on Oct 23, 2023 5:57:14 GMT -6
With respect to penalty vs. no penalty - if the rules say it requires a reduction, so be it. The fact that it wasn't called out at Regionals (if the ladder was in fact placed in exactly the same place) is irrelevant. The rule is the rule.
With respect to being a 3 point deduction - looking in from the outside that is ludicrous. A couple tenths, sure. Half a point, okay. A full point, now you're pushing it but acceptable. For comparison, to get a full point deduction at a BOA event requires a significant impeding of the competition flow or extreme violations of other penalizable offenses. Based on all available reports, this didn't rise to the level that would have gotten more than a few tenths deductions in most circuits.
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Post by paddy on Oct 23, 2023 6:09:19 GMT -6
With respect to penalty vs. no penalty - if the rules say it requires a reduction, so be it. The fact that it wasn't called out at Regionals (if the ladder was in fact placed in exactly the same place) is irrelevant. The rule is the rule. With respect to being a 3 point deduction - looking in from the outside that is ludicrous. A couple tenths, sure. Half a point, okay. A full point, now you're pushing it but acceptable. For comparison, to get a full point deduction at a BOA event requires a significant impeding of the competition flow or extreme violations of other penalizable offenses. Based on all available reports, this didn't rise to the level that would have gotten more than a few tenths deductions in most circuits. I generally agree that this penalty amount is abnormally large. Having been around long enough I am guessing it was much lower at one time and certain bands just ignored it because it wasn’t enough of a deterrent. People got fed up and decided to really give it teeth. Doesn’t make it right, but I’m guessing there is a story behind it. The only other penalty that comes to mind that is similarly punitive is the use of prerecorded music that caught an Open Percussion group at WGI championships in 2022.
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Post by madhatter on Oct 23, 2023 6:30:00 GMT -6
With respect to penalty vs. no penalty - if the rules say it requires a reduction, so be it. The fact that it wasn't called out at Regionals (if the ladder was in fact placed in exactly the same place) is irrelevant. The rule is the rule. With respect to being a 3 point deduction - looking in from the outside that is ludicrous. A couple tenths, sure. Half a point, okay. A full point, now you're pushing it but acceptable. For comparison, to get a full point deduction at a BOA event requires a significant impeding of the competition flow or extreme violations of other penalizable offenses. Based on all available reports, this didn't rise to the level that would have gotten more than a few tenths deductions in most circuits. Agree with this entirely. I would hope the Directors and ISSMA would look closely at the propriety of a rule that would lop off 3 entire pts for a piece of equipment is misplaced by a few inches (which is what I take happened). A misplaced small piece of equipment does not give one program an unfair advantage over another, and ISSMA should have their rules reflect that. The point penalty makes no sense and is too desperate and punitive of a result for such an infraction. In the meantime, instead of preparing for their final performance of the year at State finals, parents, Boosters and staff find themselves trying their best to teach the shocked Band members how to respond with grace and humility.
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Post by james50 on Oct 23, 2023 6:52:26 GMT -6
With respect to penalty vs. no penalty - if the rules say it requires a reduction, so be it. The fact that it wasn't called out at Regionals (if the ladder was in fact placed in exactly the same place) is irrelevant. The rule is the rule. With respect to being a 3 point deduction - looking in from the outside that is ludicrous. A couple tenths, sure. Half a point, okay. A full point, now you're pushing it but acceptable. For comparison, to get a full point deduction at a BOA event requires a significant impeding of the competition flow or extreme violations of other penalizable offenses. Based on all available reports, this didn't rise to the level that would have gotten more than a few tenths deductions in most circuits. Agree with this entirely. I would hope the Directors and ISSMA would look closely at the propriety of a rule that would lop off 3 entire pts for a piece of equipment is misplaced by a few inches (which is what I take happened). A misplaced small piece of equipment does not give one program an unfair advantage over another, and ISSMA should have their rules reflect that. The point penalty makes no sense and is too desperate and punitive of a result for such an infraction. In the meantime, parents, Boosters and staff are trying their best to teach the shocked Band members how to respond with grace and humility. I hate that these types of life lessons need to be taught. The "life isn't always fair" lesson. Our band is a state finalist and we all feel deeply sad for the Castle kids. The amount of work and time they put in and then one seemingly inconsequential thing done incorrectly dooms them. I feel even worse for anyone directly behind that infraction. They probably had no idea and I hope the program is being kind to he/she/them.
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Post by OldSchoolTrumpet on Oct 23, 2023 7:00:46 GMT -6
That's not entirely true. Your by-laws state otherwise and I hope this issue gets pressed as far as it needs to. Why 3 points and how does one field supervisor get to determine that? Let's say it was a placement issue? Why have placement of field props not been judged consistently over the course of the season and allowed at other events, but being enforced now? This needs to be addressed! You know these shows are built using muscle memory and a prop isn't just going to change positions at one of the most important performances of the season. Nothing you can do? Maybe get a job you actually care about! To be fair, this is only the second ISSMA event so "the rest of the season" that you're referring to would be Regionals only. BOA events and invitationals don't necessarily enforce the same rules and restrictions. Were they in violation at Regionals and not penalized? I don't know. They were at the same competiton as Avon and Brownsburg who were penalized, so one wonders.
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Post by bandmom2 on Oct 23, 2023 7:10:15 GMT -6
That's not entirely true. Your by-laws state otherwise and I hope this issue gets pressed as far as it needs to. Why 3 points and how does one field supervisor get to determine that? Let's say it was a placement issue? Why have placement of field props not been judged consistently over the course of the season and allowed at other events, but being enforced now? This needs to be addressed! You know these shows are built using muscle memory and a prop isn't just going to change positions at one of the most important performances of the season. Nothing you can do? Maybe get a job you actually care about! To be fair, this is only the second ISSMA event so "the rest of the season" that you're referring to would be Regionals only. BOA events and invitationals don't necessarily enforce the same rules and restrictions. Were they in violation at Regionals and not penalized? I don't know. They were at the same competiton as Avon and Brownsburg who were penalized, so one wonders. Castle was at the south regional while Avon and Brownsburg were at the north. Their infractions were different from Castle’s (stepped over the line too early). But any infraction defined by ISSMA should have been enforced consistently across locations whether it was regional, semi state or an invitational. It’s an unfortunate situation. Our band is a finalist and they feel empathy for Castle as well. It could have happened to anyone.
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Post by OldSchoolTrumpet on Oct 23, 2023 7:12:18 GMT -6
To be fair, this is only the second ISSMA event so "the rest of the season" that you're referring to would be Regionals only. BOA events and invitationals don't necessarily enforce the same rules and restrictions. Were they in violation at Regionals and not penalized? I don't know. They were at the same competiton as Avon and Brownsburg who were penalized, so one wonders. Castle was at the south regional while Avon and Brownsburg were at the north. Their infractions were different from Castle’s (stepped over the line too early). But any infraction defined by ISSMA should have been enforced consistently across locations whether it was regional, semi state or an invitational. It’s an unfortunate situation. Our band is a finalist and they feel empathy for Castle as well. It could have happened to anyone. Doh! You're right. I knew that. What an idiot I am.
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riot
Senior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by riot on Oct 23, 2023 7:13:27 GMT -6
Castle appealed and the ruling was upheld.
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Post by bandmom2 on Oct 23, 2023 7:14:12 GMT -6
Castle was at the south regional while Avon and Brownsburg were at the north. Their infractions were different from Castle’s (stepped over the line too early). But any infraction defined by ISSMA should have been enforced consistently across locations whether it was regional, semi state or an invitational. It’s an unfortunate situation. Our band is a finalist and they feel empathy for Castle as well. It could have happened to anyone. Doh! You're right. I knew that. What an idiot I am. Not an idiot. But it still holds that enforcement should be consistent, no matter how much the rules suck.
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Post by OldSchoolTrumpet on Oct 23, 2023 7:21:24 GMT -6
Castle appealed and the ruling was upheld. Given that it's ISSMA, I'm not surprised. But then again assuming that the infraction did take place, then choosing to reverse any penalties opens up a can of worms for future penalties. I agree with hewhowaits for the most part. The enforcement, or lack thereof, at Regionals is moot. Just because one set of judges missed something doesn't grandfather a violation in as legal moving forward. But the size of the penalty is ludicrous. The Castle kids didn't deserve this.
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Post by hewhowaits on Oct 23, 2023 7:42:32 GMT -6
Castle was at the south regional while Avon and Brownsburg were at the north. Their infractions were different from Castle’s (stepped over the line too early). But any infraction defined by ISSMA should have been enforced consistently across locations whether it was regional, semi state or an invitational. It’s an unfortunate situation. Our band is a finalist and they feel empathy for Castle as well. It could have happened to anyone. Doh! You're right. I knew that. What an idiot I am. From your keyboard to HR eyes!
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Post by sheperd135188 on Oct 23, 2023 8:09:44 GMT -6
do we have the full weather report for semi state yet?
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Post by MelloWeedle on Oct 23, 2023 17:32:25 GMT -6
3pt penalty. their props fell into the endzone because of wind Not quite what happened. We did receive a penalty but only due to our drum major stand on the back corner of side 1. It was a few inches inside of the end zone.
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Post by das88 on Oct 23, 2023 18:28:10 GMT -6
3pt penalty. their props fell into the endzone because of wind Not quite what happened. We did receive a penalty but only due to our drum major stand on the back corner of side 1. It was a few inches inside of the end zone. No question the fact that the penalty is 3pts is clearly ridiculous and needs to be updated!!
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Post by antoniopenderas on Oct 23, 2023 18:42:29 GMT -6
3pt penalty. their props fell into the endzone because of wind Not quite what happened. We did receive a penalty but only due to our drum major stand on the back corner of side 1. It was a few inches inside of the end zone. The script for this year's ISSMA State Finals was crazy
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Post by tigertail on Oct 23, 2023 20:54:43 GMT -6
Jasper making a comeback to defend their title? Don't see that happening, Evansville North has an outstanding show this year. No one is beating them.
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bflat
Full Member
Posts: 29
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Post by bflat on Oct 23, 2023 21:04:30 GMT -6
Where can I get a copy of the current ISSMA rules and the point values assigned to each penalty? I want to know how one judge has the power to knock off 3 pts due to one penalty and end a season like they did with Castle? There should be lots of people on here that have access to it. Surely each band receives a copy of it before each contest as a refresher so they know what is expected! If not, it is unfair to have a contest where the participants aren't aware of what is being judged. What actions (that you are aware of) are being taken to get answers? Who is leading the charge? This must be escalated and not accepted and then we move on kind of thing. Covid was enough of a season killer for these kids. The seniors can't go out like this! #castletakeastand With all due respect, 9 other Class A schools' seniors had to "go out like this" and most of those schools' seniors have to "go out like this" every year, year after year, if not at Semi-State weekend then Regionals weekend. No school or their seniors are "owed" a trip to state finals--or BOA finals for that matter--even perpetual lock bands. The 3 point penalty is harsh, and it's absolutely unfortunate that things played out this way, but the directors know the rules, and they apply to (or should apply to) all bands equally. The directors can also decide to change those rules and/or the penalties assigned to them. I wouldn't be surprised if they tweak the penalty next year exactly because of this issue. Ultimately, Castle had an awesome show and great performances at Regional, Semi-State, BOA, and every Invitational they attended, so it isn't like their season was a failure--quite the opposite. But it's more than a little entitled to act like they should be automatically guaranteed a place at state finals. There are thousands of kids in Class A who feel this heartache every single year. My condolences to Castle, but I'm sure they'll roar back as strong or stronger next year.
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Post by paddy on Oct 24, 2023 8:50:53 GMT -6
Jasper making a comeback to defend their title? Don't see that happening, Evansville North has an outstanding show this year. No one is beating them. North has show that is scoring well and the kids perform it to their fullest. It is not an outstanding show. The wind book is unfulfilling and easier than most. It is overly reliant on soloists/small groups and lacks the amount of full ensemble moments that a show should have. It also has too much band dancing for my tastes. But I agree that they are going to win.
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Post by horndad on Oct 24, 2023 9:20:14 GMT -6
Pretty sure it was Evansville north Yes. It was shockingly warmer in Evansville than the rest of the group at Pike. 4.9° warmer down south that day.
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Post by paddy on Oct 24, 2023 9:31:23 GMT -6
Yes. It was shockingly warmer in Evansville than the rest of the group at Pike. 4.9° warmer down south that day. Like I said “shockingly warmer”.
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Post by horndad on Oct 24, 2023 17:43:18 GMT -6
Where can I get a copy of the current ISSMA rules and the point values assigned to each penalty? I want to know how one judge has the power to knock off 3 pts due to one penalty and end a season like they did with Castle? There should be lots of people on here that have access to it. Surely each band receives a copy of it before each contest as a refresher so they know what is expected! If not, it is unfair to have a contest where the participants aren't aware of what is being judged. What actions (that you are aware of) are being taken to get answers? Who is leading the charge? This must be escalated and not accepted and then we move on kind of thing. Covid was enough of a season killer for these kids. The seniors can't go out like this! #castletakeastand I might be in the minority but I'm happy ISSMA rules are not available to the public. I didn't realize this until I asked my kid if he knew about the rule Castle was penalized for and if the directors go over rules with them. His answer really put it in perspective. "No dad, I just do what I'm told". I'm glad he doesn't have to worry about the rules and can focus on his music and marching. I'm also happy us parents don't have a rulebook handy to pick apart other bands that we might think breaks a rule that doesn't get called.
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Post by tigertail on Oct 24, 2023 19:53:16 GMT -6
Don't see that happening, Evansville North has an outstanding show this year. No one is beating them. North has show that is scoring well and the kids perform it to their fullest. It is not an outstanding show. The wind book is unfulfilling and easier than most. It is overly reliant on soloists/small groups and lacks the amount of full ensemble moments that a show should have. It also has too much band dancing for my tastes. But I agree that they are going to win. Everyone has their own opinion, I still see their show as outstanding as do the judges, being almost 5 degrees warmer than the next closest temperature is unheard of when placements are generally decided by tenths of points. North has a wonderful ensemble in my opinion and the balance of those moments and their soloists are what separate them from their competitors. I really like Jasper, Bloomington North, and Northview shows as well.
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Post by paddy on Oct 25, 2023 4:14:03 GMT -6
North has show that is scoring well and the kids perform it to their fullest. It is not an outstanding show. The wind book is unfulfilling and easier than most. It is overly reliant on soloists/small groups and lacks the amount of full ensemble moments that a show should have. It also has too much band dancing for my tastes. But I agree that they are going to win. Everyone has their own opinion, I still see their show as outstanding as do the judges, being almost 5 degrees warmer than the next closest temperature is unheard of when placements are generally decided by tenths of points. North has a wonderful ensemble in my opinion and the balance of those moments and their soloists are what separate them from their competitors. I really like Jasper, Bloomington North, and Northview shows as well. Of course everyone has opinions; that’s one of the functions of this board. But don’t base your opinion on an appeal to authority. Just because a show scores well does not make it an outstanding show. I like Bloomington North as well it’s is fun, different and the kids play the music really well. I like Pendleton’s show and wish they made state. Jasper and Northview are fine. Concord and especially Greenfield have lots of potential in their shows but need to perform them better. Edited to add: I have been critical of this type of show design consistently over my time on these boards. I don’t care which band roles it out, it isn’t going to be a show I like. I can appreciate that it is well performed, but I’m not going to enjoy the show design.
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Post by dmflutemom69 on Oct 25, 2023 8:54:46 GMT -6
Class B definitely the one I’m most excited for! Haven’t seen any shows this year except northridge, Munster, concord, and Greenwood. Excited to see EV north, GFC , jasper and northview! Can’t wait to see semi state scores and be surprised that they aren’t even close to finals results for like the 12th year in a row 😁 Do we know the SS class B stats?
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Post by euphislife on Oct 25, 2023 14:15:16 GMT -6
Class B definitely the one I’m most excited for! Haven’t seen any shows this year except northridge, Munster, concord, and Greenwood. Excited to see EV north, GFC , jasper and northview! Can’t wait to see semi state scores and be surprised that they aren’t even close to finals results for like the 12th year in a row 😁 Do we know the SS class B stats? Piecing together info gathered from this forum and my own sources from Jasper: 1. Evansville North —4.9 pt gap— 2. Jasper 3. Northview 4. Greenwood 5. Bloomington North/Munster 6. FJ Reitz 7. Munster/Bloomington North 8. Concord 9. Greenfield Central 10. Northside take with a grain of salt as I have nothing 100% concrete outside of top 2. I don’t have anything on 5 & 7 and didn’t want to assume. is anyone able to confirm these placements?
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Post by paddy on Oct 25, 2023 14:26:54 GMT -6
Do we know the SS class B stats? Piecing together info gathered from this forum and my own sources from Jasper: 1. Evansville North —4.9 pt gap— 2. Jasper 3. Northview 4. Greenwood 5. Bloomington North/Munster 6. FJ Reitz 7. Munster/Bloomington North 8. Concord 9. Greenfield Central 10. Northside take with a grain of salt as I have nothing 100% concrete outside of top 2. I don’t have anything on 5 & 7 and didn’t want to assume. is anyone able to confirm these placements? Corrections… 5. BN 7. Northside 10. Munster One of the crazier recaps I’ve seen out of B semi state.
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Post by euphislife on Oct 25, 2023 14:47:27 GMT -6
interesting, though I’m not surprised. I love Bloomington North’s show.
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riot
Senior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by riot on Oct 25, 2023 15:56:16 GMT -6
Is this correct for class A without the penalty?
Carmel Avon Brownsburg Carol Castle Fishers Homestead Center Grove Noblesville Westfield Goshen
Carmel and Avon would be 1/2. I know Castle got 5th before the penalty and have read Carol was ahead of them. I'm assuming 3rd would be Brownsburg, and I'm completely guessing at anything after Castle.
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Post by oldschooldrummer on Oct 25, 2023 16:50:32 GMT -6
Is this correct for class A without the penalty? Carmel Avon Brownsburg Carol Castle Fishers Homestead Center Grove Noblesville Westfield Goshen Carmel and Avon would be 1/2. I know Castle got 5th before the penalty and have read Carol was ahead of them. I'm assuming 3rd would be Brownsburg, and I'm completely guessing at anything after Castle. . I don’t know where pre penalties landed but I know in the end it was a tie for 5th. Although I don’t know about Carroll beating castle I haven’t heard that yet. Here’s the order after the penalty because I don’t know where Castle was before. I’m making a somewhat educated guess on where noblesville and Westfield fell feel free to correct me! 1. Carmel 2.Avon 3.brownsburg 4.Carroll 5. Fishers/homestead tie 6. Center grove 7. Noblesville 8. Westfield 9. *Goshen (moved up after penalty) Yes. Carroll did indeed beat Castle (without the penalty) and was about .25 behind Brownsburg. 1. Avon 2. Carmel 3. Brownsburg 4. Carroll 5. Castle (without penalty) but 11th after 5/6. Fishers/Homestead 7. Noblesville 8. Center Grove 9. Westfield 10. Goshen
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Post by james50 on Oct 25, 2023 18:33:34 GMT -6
. I don’t know where pre penalties landed but I know in the end it was a tie for 5th. Although I don’t know about Carroll beating castle I haven’t heard that yet. Here’s the order after the penalty because I don’t know where Castle was before. I’m making a somewhat educated guess on where noblesville and Westfield fell feel free to correct me! 1. Carmel 2.Avon 3.brownsburg 4.Carroll 5. Fishers/homestead tie 6. Center grove 7. Noblesville 8. Westfield 9. *Goshen (moved up after penalty) Yes. Carroll did indeed beat Castle (without the penalty) and was about .25 behind Brownsburg. 1. Avon 2. Carmel 3. Brownsburg 4. Carroll 5. Castle (without penalty) but 11th after 5/6. Fishers/Homestead 7. Noblesville 8. Center Grove 9. Westfield 10. Goshen Are the scor.... er, weather reports, or whatever, available somewhere? It's my understanding, for what it's worth, that Avon was first. I'm just hoping to see the breakdown list for the various categories as well.
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