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Post by lylaaaaa on Oct 29, 2023 11:53:25 GMT -6
Big trend right now. EV North won B and a BOA regional with the ensemble playing less than half the show. At least it was reflected in their music score today I know. I guess I’m just an old curmudgeon. I just feel as if a show and performance like Carroll’s deserves to be rewarded. I really feel bad for Carroll. Me too... I know they were all disappointed in their run after, however, I still think they deserved more. They are such a great band this year!!! The entire season until state they got either 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th and nothing higher. I know many of them are grieving everything right now and heavily disappointed. Sending love to all of them ♥️
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Post by lylaaaaa on Oct 29, 2023 11:58:24 GMT -6
Well, I'll just put in some quick recaps here with my rankings before awards because with how much against the grain I feel like I'll have been heh. Just let me have my own two cents okay? OKAY?! Hah Class A Rankings 1. Avon (Visual, GE) - So much simultaneous responsibility they do and nail it and just playing craziness for days. Plus this is the largest sound that I've heard Avon have since probably 2010! 2. Carmel (Music) - Look, it won't be the first or last time you hear this from me, they've set the standard of what a symphonic band should sound like on the field (for the state of Indiana...shut up Texas WE KNOW! lol) 3. Brownsburg - Still the best designed show imo the past 3 years. You can tell they are improving because they are doing less work to try and hide visual dirt. They are getting a better ensemble sound each year too. Some attack issues though especially in the closer. I may seem more critical of them but that's because I also see they are getting close to going over the hill into the elite club of groups. 4.Homestead - Let me be a homer okay! But seriously. Compared to Fishers and Goshen, the musical balance and blend Homestead had just felt way ahead. Individual dirt was still very much there and some of the more complex high brass moments weren't locked in but still 2 weeks to clean that. Woodwinds though continue to be the winds strongest point. This show has that Fun band energy that can help them go far and with plenty to still clean and the ability to do so, who knows how it will end up. 5. Carroll - This is tight. Like, very tight! Finally getting to see them, I can see why it's been so close all season long. My more detailed breakdown will go into it but I feel this should be an absolute LOCK for a semi-finals spot even being in the harder panel. Toss a coin and I could easily see ether Homestead or Carroll pushing ahead. 6. Fishers - Sometimes you just gotta go out there and do a straight up FUN show and this is that show. Just puts a smile on your face. However, going on first hurts. And the musical run felt very loose. Some missed attacks. And I'm still not quite sure if the singer is supposed to sound like that as part of a kind of joke...or serious. Which honestly kinda sounds mean but I don't mean it to be. 7. Noblesville - Welcome back to state! They are putting out some great balance and blend in their music. But the winds visual, like a few others, feel like it needs just stepped up a notch as most of the show with a band this size in front of front hash. Really enjoyed the full design and especially the ending. Great way to end the night too! 8. Westfield - Welcome to your first state finals! You epitomize the power of being clean when small. It has served you well. While I enjoyed last years show a little more, this is the show that got you here and that's something to really be proud of. It was a a great performance to be proud of. If this group grows, everyone watch out for them as well now! 9. Goshen - They played like they needed to. Like they were just grateful to be there. It was easily the best run of the season for them. Still feel like te show was a step back from last year but they maxed out their show once again, had fun, and gave off the impression like they DID belong here. 10. Center Grove - This was NOT their run imo. Unforced visual errors, attacks felt off, etc. It all felt off. Hopefully GN prelims is spot on cause the more Indiana bands in Semi's the better! I want to get more detailed thoughts out from all the classes and I really hope to. It would come in a different post later. As always, my two cents are my two cents. With inflation....it still isn't much! Personally, I changed my rank with Honestead being 6, CG being 5, and Carroll being 4. My only take was that Carroll had their worst run since Regionals at this one (for who knows why, I think part of it is about 40 kids have strep at the moment but nobody wanted to miss state) and it was just a fluke. CG was pretty good tonight, I usually place homestead over them, but CG did great!!
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Post by thewho on Oct 29, 2023 12:06:09 GMT -6
After a quick glance at the scores, 5-7 could've been very different if state finals was on Sunday. I'm cool with Carroll 7th now. No qualms with how the night ended. What do you mean? Like cool after the performance or did you not like how they ranked earlier in the season? Sorry just confused I was just stating that I publicly disagreed with Carroll being 7th when the scores were announced but I'm okay with the placement they got after observing the overall scores briefly. Homestead and Center Grove were all very, very close to each other. I'm sure with the same judges, the same band order, same environment and all that but performed again today that Carroll could've been 5th instead of Homestead. Same thing with Center Grove. It just happened that this particular permutation dropped Carroll in 7th. I'm sure the kids are disappointed in a typical Carroll season... but there's one more performance they have this season. They're going to be spectacular.
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Post by guardmom2021 on Oct 29, 2023 12:19:37 GMT -6
I like EV North just fine. I think they performed the heck out of their show and am happy that Class B continues to grow in competitiveness. I appreciate the hard work those kids did to perform a challenging visual component of their show. I think their soloists are outstanding musicians. I think their ensemble performed the book they were given well too. I do think the music book was lacking and was over scored this year. The music ensemble judge at state finals who is outstanding and well respected agreed with me. Actually, the BOA regional ME judge agreed with me as well as they placed 4th at finals. However, my criticism really had little to do with North. I would criticize the music book of that show regardless of who performed it. I thought Choctaw had a soft music book covered by visuals last year. I have not been impressed by Center Grove’s music book on the winds side lately. I have been consistent in this criticism and view for years. You just happened along lately and only see what I am saying now. I believe you should try to challenge kids with music that makes them better and forces them to strive beyond what they think they are capable of. I just think it is a disservice to kids in a music education activity to not challenge them in pursuit of winning. I don’t like what shows designed like this represent as an evolution of the activity. And I would have judged Ev North the winner yesterday. Their total package was the best product on the field. It is not a show design I like but I can recognize high achievement. The first thing one must do when critiquing the activity is to divorce oneself from the group performing. The name of the school doesn’t matter, who the director is doesn’t matter, the names on the design team and staff don’t matter. I use names of programs when describing what I don’t like because it is a commonly understood identifier. However that doesn’t mean that I have an opinion of the school itself. But how do you KNOW those kids aren’t being challenged?? You aren’t the band director so you wouldn’t exactly know the student’s strengths and weaknesses and how to best set them up for “success”. We all know the main reason marching band is an incredible activity is not for learning the music itself, but all the amazing transferable life skills and memories you get. I know for a fact that CG does not care about winning. They care about developing into good people through music education. By giving the best perform they can personally give at that moment in time. This is their version of success. Personally, I’d much have this mentally than one that establishes failure if you don’t get 1sts. Especially when students end up crying because you got 3rd place at state finals one year (yes, I saw this happen with Avon many years ago). For someone upset about someone else presuming they understand another band, but then goes and says Avon was crying because they got 3rd? Maybe or maybe it was a rough year and they were just so happy they medaled, or maybe they were sad for their seniors last state finals especiallyif it was a particularly meaningful show? But i wouldnt presume one way or the other. The Avon and carmels don't usually cry over placements that I have ever seen.
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c
Junior Member
Posts: 22
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Post by c on Oct 29, 2023 12:23:22 GMT -6
But how do you KNOW those kids aren’t being challenged?? You aren’t the band director so you wouldn’t exactly know the student’s strengths and weaknesses and how to best set them up for “success”. We all know the main reason marching band is an incredible activity is not for learning the music itself, but all the amazing transferable life skills and memories you get. I know for a fact that CG does not care about winning. They care about developing into good people through music education. By giving the best perform they can personally give at that moment in time. This is their version of success. Personally, I’d much have this mentally than one that establishes failure if you don’t get 1sts. Especially when students end up crying because you got 3rd place at state finals one year (yes, I saw this happen with Avon many years ago). For someone upset about someone else presuming they understand another band, but then goes and says Avon was crying because they got 3rd? Maybe or maybe it was a rough year and they were just so happy they medaled, or maybe they were sad for their seniors last state finals especiallyif it was a particularly meaningful show? But i wouldnt presume one way or the other. The Avon and carmels don't usually cry over placements that I have ever seen. Lol I’m married to a marcher the year I saw them cry cause of their 3rd place finish. She said it was cause they felt like failures for only getting 3rd… She said they were raised in a culture that was “prepare to win” so if they didn’t win, they felt like they failed.
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Post by altosandclarinets on Oct 29, 2023 12:46:21 GMT -6
I know. I guess I’m just an old curmudgeon. I just feel as if a show and performance like Carroll’s deserves to be rewarded. I really feel bad for Carroll. Me too... My sister goes to Carroll now (I went to homestead) and they were all disappointed in their run after, however, I still think they deserved more. They are such a great band this year!!! The entire season until state they got either 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th and nothing higher. I know many of them are grieving everything right now and heavily disappointed. Sending love to all of them ♥️ 7th is still a step up from 8th. Every band will have a place in the end and someone had to have 7th. Does that mean they did bad? No, just the other bands pulled ahead by just a tiny amount. I tend to see shows rank fairly well on school football fields and then all of a sudden they drop a lot. But Lucas oil state finals is a different ballpark. The tape is different, the sound echos, you have a lot more people watching you, and it’s not just your band against a few other bands at the same preformence level but it’s the top 10 bands in the state. It’s easy to score high when your competitors are lower caliber than you but then combine the top ten and it makes the judges job hard. That being said the score range from center grove, to Carroll was TIGHT. The bands they were up against are known to push at the end and it can be hard to pass some. If that wasn’t their best run like you say, I have no doubt they will come back amazing for grand nats. This stuff happens, some bands just push hard for a week to pull ahead, sometimes the judges make calls you don’t like. Also this is ISSMA judging it’s kind of weird…
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Post by indyfan921 on Oct 29, 2023 13:01:36 GMT -6
I meant to ask this yesterday, but for class b yesterday, there was a scoring error between the bottom two. Anyone know what happened with that?
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Post by indyguy8362 on Oct 29, 2023 16:20:28 GMT -6
I've never followed ISSMA, but I know scores are kept secret (except for directors). Having said that, why don't people just... post them anyway? Because UIL also tries to keep its raw scores secret but they almost always get leaked lol they do get leaked and alr have, i had them before midnight. that being said im not going to be the one leaking them publicly 😂
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Post by asaiah on Oct 29, 2023 16:26:37 GMT -6
No big deal! I can imagine it was Carmel and Avon in a tier of their own, then everyone else. I guess I just don't understand what the point of secret scores are.
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Post by altosandclarinets on Oct 29, 2023 16:45:35 GMT -6
I've never followed ISSMA, but I know scores are kept secret (except for directors). Having said that, why don't people just... post them anyway? Because UIL also tries to keep its raw scores secret but they almost always get leaked lol they do get leaked and alr have, i had them before midnight. that being said im not going to be the one leaking them publicly 😂 What?? We don’t leak scores! That would be against the rules. but I would like to have very detailed descriptions of the weather… that’s not wrong…
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Post by mb4ever on Oct 30, 2023 0:42:09 GMT -6
Anyone have a weather report from ISSMA state finals? Specifically looking for B but would like all if possible,
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Post by thor19 on Oct 30, 2023 13:44:42 GMT -6
It was 84 degrees in the far south and where the woods are green 83 degrees where you get a good VIEW from the North and their neighbors. If you went to the RV capital is was 80 degrees. That’s top highest temps for the Bees.
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Post by tigertail on Oct 30, 2023 14:58:33 GMT -6
I know. I guess I’m just an old curmudgeon. I just feel as if a show and performance like Carroll’s deserves to be rewarded. I really feel bad for Carroll. Me too... My sister goes to Carroll now (I went to homestead) and they were all disappointed in their run after, however, I still think they deserved more. They are such a great band this year!!! The entire season until state they got either 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th and nothing higher. I know many of them are grieving everything right now and heavily disappointed. Sending love to all of them ♥️ They are "grieving" and "heavily disappointed "!!?? C'mon get real, it's a band competition, they made it to state! Be happy
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Post by neal95 on Oct 30, 2023 20:04:34 GMT -6
It was 84 degrees in the far south and where the woods are green 83 degrees where you get a good VIEW from the North and their neighbors. If you went to the RV capital is was 80 degrees. That’s top highest temps for the Bees. What was the weather like on the Northern end of Evansville?
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Post by sheperd135188 on Oct 31, 2023 14:26:54 GMT -6
now that we've had time to let the results settle, what do we think about them? (specifically class b but I would love to talk about any)
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Post by imakepropsmiracles on Oct 31, 2023 15:03:54 GMT -6
now that we've had time to let the results settle, what do we think about them? (specifically class b but I would love to talk about any) Seems about right logically - the rank order shuffled some in the 2-4 pack and again in the 4-9 pack, but all of those bands had been close at both Regionals and Semi-State. It would seem the rank order came out in terms of show of the day among those groups 3 times in a row -- with all the bands within a point or two of each other. Ev North was the class of the group - whether you have a taste for modern show design or not. The state scores will have them closer to the field than they were at Regional or Semis - but they are the worthy champions - no doubt there. If you want to really break your brain - trying figuring out what happens in Class D every year from Semis to Finals. I can't remember the last time the top ranked band at Semis actually won the next week. This year was crazier than most. The defending champ finished 9th after beating the soon to be champ at Semi-state (granted MD went on last at Semis and first at State) - and from what I hear from the parents, they had their best run of the year. In further carnage commentary, SV dropped from 3rd to seventh, Monrovia rose from 10th to 5th, and Adams Central went from 8th to 4th. And wait until the scores are posted - the score increases and decreases make the ranking moves look mild. To be fair - two different panels of judges - the first judging 19 bands in 1 day. But if you are a director in that class, it has to be tough to be told that you are doing well one week - go clean and put on some finishing touches, and then get destroyed the next week (or the other way round -- delighted by how much you got better). I mean - it must drive them nuts. If Class D was as watched and commentated on as Class A or B - the forum server would melt down every October - b/c it is that crazy those last two weeks. All that being said -- Forest Park has been the cleanest and best playing group since week 2 - they tinkered a bit, but the state performance was certainly worthy of their championship. Jimtown was also very, very good. I'm surprised Lewis Cass edged them out, but I believe it was close. Jimtown's design was pretty forward - it's the kind of design that can throw a weird visual score if the judge isn't enthused about the design (see Ev North 2022). Tell City was a surprise both weeks - but if you judge what is on the field (and not what isn't on the field in terms of membership) you can see why both they and South Spencer did well. Those two groups played very well together in their ensemble -- they knew who they were and didn't try to fill the space with pure volume - they let their dynamics create their effect and the judges rewarded them. Adams Central -- VERY clever design -- use of the lights in the final push -- the overall theme to start the show - stayed in control - very well done. I'm either too close to the other groups or didn't see them - but I think everyone had a great run on Saturday - which is all they could ask for. It was a much, much more competitive class this year - and I'm all for that. RISE together.
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Post by paddy on Oct 31, 2023 15:17:46 GMT -6
now that we've had time to let the results settle, what do we think about them? (specifically class b but I would love to talk about any) After seeing scores and hearing some sampling of judge tapes from 4 bands the only thing that strikes me as out of whack in Class B is greenfield in 7th. Particularly given the strength of their run and the general consensus of the knowledgeable people I was with Saturday. In Class A, I probably had Noblesville and Carroll a touch higher in my personal rankings.
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Post by mb4ever on Oct 31, 2023 15:27:01 GMT -6
Does anyone have a full weather report they could pass on to me?
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Post by thewho on Oct 31, 2023 16:33:14 GMT -6
For how much people beget about Ev. North's design and whatnot, I saw no signs of other bands being able to achieve the content to the level Ev. North did. I am a touch surprised about how close Greenwood finished to North (mostly because of ISSMA about to ISSMA themselves...) and I digress quite significantly with the Music Ens judge for North, but I've got no qualms with the numbers otherwise.
GFC in 7th was downright criminal. That was an absurdly good showing going on after North. I get the subjectiveness of the activity, but the GE judges knocking GFC to where they ended up was ridiculous. I've got a bone to pick with the Music Ind. judge too.
All else outside, I'm happy how things ended up. North Side showed up pretty strongly for first band on. Reitz and Munster did not quite have the performance, I think, they needed to climb up the ranks. Bloomington North is a bit of a head-scratcher but considering the competition, I'm not surprised at all- easily the strongest performance in the lower half (bottom 4). Concord was absolutely lovely, but the run fell apart towards the end. Jasper, Northview, and Greenwood were a coin toss.
Class B was stellar this year. I'd say we're starting to get close to those competitive years in B with Jasper/Greenwood/Northview/Concord along with Goshen/Floyd Central in the early '10s and the slugfests between Northview/Greenwood in the '00s with those few competitive bands in between. It's going to be an exciting with North/GFC at the top now, and Pendleton Heights in the wings!
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Post by paddy on Oct 31, 2023 16:39:55 GMT -6
For how much people beget about Ev. North's design and whatnot, I saw no signs of other bands being able to achieve the content to the level Ev. North did. I am a touch surprised about how close Greenwood finished to North (mostly because of ISSMA about to ISSMA themselves...) and I digress quite significantly with the Music Ens judge for North, but I've got no qualms with the numbers otherwise. GFC in 7th was downright criminal. That was an absurdly good showing going on after North. I get the subjectiveness of the activity, but the GE judges knocking GFC to where they ended up was ridiculous. I've got a bone to pick with the Music Ind. judge too. All else outside, I'm happy how things ended up. North Side showed up pretty strongly for first band on. Reitz and Munster did not quite have the performance, I think, they needed to climb up the ranks. Bloomington North is a bit of a head-scratcher but considering the competition, I'm not surprised at all- easily the strongest performance in the lower half (bottom 4). Concord was absolutely lovely, but the run fell apart towards the end. Jasper, Northview, and Greenwood were a coin toss. Class B was stellar this year. I'd say we're starting to get close to those competitive years in B with Jasper/Greenwood/Northview/Concord along with Goshen/Floyd Central in the early '10s and the slugfests between Northview/Greenwood in the '00s with those few competitive bands in between. It's going to be an exciting with North/GFC at the top now, and Pendleton Heights in the wings! I generally agree with this. As an overall opinion for me: I value both the difficulty of the content and the level of achievement when scoring bands. I believe this was a common approach among judges for a long time and is the way the rubric is set up. There seems to be a trend since covid to reward achievement primarily then make the content score align with that.
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Post by imakepropsmiracles on Oct 31, 2023 16:56:17 GMT -6
For how much people beget about Ev. North's design and whatnot, I saw no signs of other bands being able to achieve the content to the level Ev. North did. I am a touch surprised about how close Greenwood finished to North (mostly because of ISSMA about to ISSMA themselves...) and I digress quite significantly with the Music Ens judge for North, but I've got no qualms with the numbers otherwise. GFC in 7th was downright criminal. That was an absurdly good showing going on after North. I get the subjectiveness of the activity, but the GE judges knocking GFC to where they ended up was ridiculous. I've got a bone to pick with the Music Ind. judge too. All else outside, I'm happy how things ended up. North Side showed up pretty strongly for first band on. Reitz and Munster did not quite have the performance, I think, they needed to climb up the ranks. Bloomington North is a bit of a head-scratcher but considering the competition, I'm not surprised at all- easily the strongest performance in the lower half (bottom 4). Concord was absolutely lovely, but the run fell apart towards the end. Jasper, Northview, and Greenwood were a coin toss. Class B was stellar this year. I'd say we're starting to get close to those competitive years in B with Jasper/Greenwood/Northview/Concord along with Goshen/Floyd Central in the early '10s and the slugfests between Northview/Greenwood in the '00s with those few competitive bands in between. It's going to be an exciting with North/GFC at the top now, and Pendleton Heights in the wings! I generally agree with this. As an overall opinion for me: I value both the difficulty of the content and the level of achievement when scoring bands. I believe this was a common approach among judges for a long time and is the way the rubric is set up. There seems to be a trend since covid to reward achievement primarily then make the content score align with that. yes -- it drives me a bit nuts when I see half the panel giving divergent scores in content and achievement and the other half of the panel giving the same score or nearly that in both boxes to keep with the rank order they want to achieve. I get that it is more to manage if you diverging those Content and Achievement scores -- but I appreciate the judges who will give a 78 - 72 and an 74 - 82 as opposed to just seeing 74-73, 78-79 down the sheet. But what do I know - I'm just a dude who likes band.
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Post by kvgdc on Oct 31, 2023 17:05:42 GMT -6
If Class D was as watched and commentated on as Class A or B - the forum server would melt down every October - b/c it is that crazy those last two weeks. All that being said -- Forest Park has been the cleanest and best playing group since week 2 - they tinkered a bit, but the state performance was certainly worthy of their championship. Jimtown was also very, very good. I'm surprised Lewis Cass edged them out, but I believe it was close. Jimtown's design was pretty forward - it's the kind of design that can throw a weird visual score if the judge isn't enthused about the design (see Ev North 2022). Tell City was a surprise both weeks - but if you judge what is on the field (and not what isn't on the field in terms of membership) you can see why both they and South Spencer did well. Those two groups played very well together in their ensemble -- they knew who they were and didn't try to fill the space with pure volume - they let their dynamics create their effect and the judges rewarded them. Adams Central -- VERY clever design -- use of the lights in the final push -- the overall theme to start the show - stayed in control - very well done. I'm either too close to the other groups or didn't see them - but I think everyone had a great run on Saturday - which is all they could ask for. It was a much, much more competitive class this year - and I'm all for that. RISE together. Class D has been like that since at least the early 80s. I remember being a middle school kid at Terre Haute for state finals in 1982 to cheer on my sisters band and we had shown up for all the bands because that's how our A band parents group tended to roll. We had a designated area to gather in and it happened to have some Forest Park alums and fans seated there. So we became Forest Park fans for the night and they became Northrop fans for the night. Forest Park, Springs Valley, and Lewis Cass were wild rivalry apparently and had been turning each other over all season with usually Lewis Cass and Springs Valley ahead of Forest Park when all three were together. Forest Park lit up that night and won state. Those guys went crazy and the Class D fans were talking about it all the way through the night. This was back in the day when State was a two show affair. If you got a 1 rating at regional, you'd perform in the day and top 5 for each class did the night show.
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Post by N.E. Brigand on Oct 31, 2023 17:11:17 GMT -6
If you want to really break your brain, try figuring out what happens in Class D every year from Semis to Finals. I can't remember the last time the top-ranked band at Semis actually won the next week. This year was crazier than most. The defending champ finished 9th after beating the soon-to-be champ at Semi-state (granted MD went on last at Semis and first at State), and from what I hear from the parents, they had their best run of the year. In further carnage commentary, SV dropped from 3rd to seventh, Monrovia rose from 10th to 5th, and Adams Central went from 8th to 4th. And wait until the scores are posted: the score increases and decreases make the ranking moves look mild. To be fair, two different panels of judges: the first judging 19 bands in one day. But if you are a director in that class, it has to be tough to be told that you are doing well one week, go clean and put on some finishing touches, and then get destroyed the next week (or the other way round: delighted by how much you got better). I mean--it must drive them nuts. This is an interesting observation. Maybe it's similar to what I've noticed about BOA Grand Nationals: the judges seem to be better at making distinctions at the top (i.e., the best of Class A) than in the middle (i.e., the best of Class D) of the realm of possible scores.
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bflat
Full Member
Posts: 29
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Post by bflat on Oct 31, 2023 17:32:30 GMT -6
As an overall opinion for me: I value both the difficulty of the content and the level of achievement when scoring bands. I believe this was a common approach among judges for a long time and is the way the rubric is set up. There seems to be a trend since covid to reward achievement primarily then make the content score align with that. Agree, though I think it's been going on to some extent since before covid. There have been some scores that just don't make sense because the show designs or music books don't have enough content to get the scores they get. I know clean is important, but if it's a lot of park and bark or hardly any full band playing and marching, it's just not requiring the same thing compared to shows that risk more with difficult music or drill. Not sure what the answer is if the judges aren't bothering to actually follow the rubric when scoring.
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Post by thewho on Oct 31, 2023 18:05:36 GMT -6
If you want to really break your brain, try figuring out what happens in Class D every year from Semis to Finals. I can't remember the last time the top-ranked band at Semis actually won the next week. This year was crazier than most. The defending champ finished 9th after beating the soon-to-be champ at Semi-state (granted MD went on last at Semis and first at State), and from what I hear from the parents, they had their best run of the year. In further carnage commentary, SV dropped from 3rd to seventh, Monrovia rose from 10th to 5th, and Adams Central went from 8th to 4th. And wait until the scores are posted: the score increases and decreases make the ranking moves look mild. To be fair, two different panels of judges: the first judging 19 bands in one day. But if you are a director in that class, it has to be tough to be told that you are doing well one week, go clean and put on some finishing touches, and then get destroyed the next week (or the other way round: delighted by how much you got better). I mean--it must drive them nuts. This is an interesting observation. Maybe it's similar to what I've noticed about BOA Grand Nationals: the judges seem to be better at making distinctions at the top (i.e., the best of Class A) than in the middle (i.e., the best of Class D) of the realm of possible scores. While there's some fair ground of merit here, I would say that's a poor example. I'd say, for Grand Nationals, it's specifically their job to find the best bands to move on so organizing the 100 bands by performance is a secondary aim. Honestly, most the rankers struggle with figuring out where to put the bands in 30th-50th tier, imagine a judge trying to rank 50 bands (often on the fly) while trying to stay balanced between the two panels.... Yeah, yeah, I get the counterargument "but training! Years of experience! Expertise!". Judges are still human. The other part that makes Class D so volatile is that the programs themselves are so affected by typical changes- departure of staff, graduating classes, budgets, recruiting, etc. Forest Park, Springs Valley, and Lewis Cass (Paoli in the past also) are all survived by the incredible legacies their directors left behind*. Every other program has struggled with just staying relevant, sometimes only because the band directors themselves are extremely passionate people- Michael Satterthwaite (Adams Central, ), Terry Burton (Orleans)**, Natasha Edmonton (Tell City), and Robert O. Slattery (Woodlawn). Even Springs Valley is starting to become outwardly affected at this point with Aylsworth leaving not long ago, although the program is still quite healthy from all the community love SV receives. It is so hard to predict because D bands tend to be centered around southern Indiana and the few competitive D bands in the north don't have much of a barometer to compare against, so no one really knows if a north 62 is really a south 75 and vice versa. That's why you tend to see a few random surprises in state finals in D. I find more often as long as the typically strong shows are still advancing, the surprises tend to be well warranted. No one really knows until regionals, and even so, there's a fair argument that semi-state is the only true look at Class D bands face-to-face get before state. *A bit too long of an aside, but because it's fun: -Lewis Cass with Terry Collins, Mike Clark (RIP), Don Krug, Andrew Muth (briefly), and Alan Hinshaw. -Forest Park with Gene Keusch and Chad Gayso. -Springs Valley with the amazing Aylsworth legacy of John Aylsworth and Luke Aylsworth. **It took YEARS for Orleans to get to the point of being a state finalist in D. Burton was behind it all.
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Post by trombonefatty on Oct 31, 2023 20:18:26 GMT -6
I’ve come to say one thing. At state finals I observed that 9 out of the 10 bands in class B had ensemble mics at the front of the field and projected the ensemble sound out of the speakers. The one band that didn’t do that was about 300% louder than everyone else. That is all
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Post by das88 on Oct 31, 2023 21:17:10 GMT -6
This is an interesting observation. Maybe it's similar to what I've noticed about BOA Grand Nationals: the judges seem to be better at making distinctions at the top (i.e., the best of Class A) than in the middle (i.e., the best of Class D) of the realm of possible scores. While there's some fair ground of merit here, I would say that's a poor example. I'd say, for Grand Nationals, it's specifically their job to find the best bands to move on so organizing the 100 bands by performance is a secondary aim. Honestly, most the rankers struggle with figuring out where to put the bands in 30th-50th tier, imagine a judge trying to rank 50 bands (often on the fly) while trying to stay balanced between the two panels.... Yeah, yeah, I get the counterargument "but training! Years of experience! Expertise!". Judges are still human. The other part that makes Class D so volatile is that the programs themselves are so affected by typical changes- departure of staff, graduating classes, budgets, recruiting, etc. Forest Park, Springs Valley, and Lewis Cass (Paoli in the past also) are all survived by the incredible legacies their directors left behind*. Every other program has struggled with just staying relevant, sometimes only because the band directors themselves are extremely passionate people- Michael Satterthwaite (Adams Central, ), Terry Burton (Orleans)**, Natasha Edmonton (Tell City), and Robert O. Slattery (Woodlawn). Even Springs Valley is starting to become outwardly affected at this point with Aylsworth leaving not long ago, although the program is still quite healthy from all the community love SV receives. It is so hard to predict because D bands tend to be centered around southern Indiana and the few competitive D bands in the north don't have much of a barometer to compare against, so no one really knows if a north 62 is really a south 75 and vice versa. That's why you tend to see a few random surprises in state finals in D. I find more often as long as the typically strong shows are still advancing, the surprises tend to be well warranted. No one really knows until regionals, and even so, there's a fair argument that semi-state is the only true look at Class D bands face-to-face get before state. *A bit too long of an aside, but because it's fun: -Lewis Cass with Terry Collins, Mike Clark (RIP), Don Krug, Andrew Muth (briefly), and Alan Hinshaw. -Forest Park with Gene Keusch and Chad Gayso. -Springs Valley with the amazing Aylsworth legacy of John Aylsworth and Luke Aylsworth. **It took YEARS for Orleans to get to the point of being a state finalist in D. Burton was behind it all. I remember Forest Park with director Janet Robbins. I think they won state once, maybe twice before she retired.
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Post by sheperd135188 on Oct 31, 2023 21:39:04 GMT -6
I’ve come to say one thing. At state finals I observed that 9 out of the 10 bands in class B had ensemble mics at the front of the field and projected the ensemble sound out of the speakers. The one band that didn’t do that was about 300% louder than everyone else. That is all Wait which band are u talking about?
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Post by trombonefatty on Nov 1, 2023 4:26:31 GMT -6
I’ve come to say one thing. At state finals I observed that 9 out of the 10 bands in class B had ensemble mics at the front of the field and projected the ensemble sound out of the speakers. The one band that didn’t do that was about 300% louder than everyone else. That is all Wait which band are u talking about? Concord. I get that they’re larger but the only band that came close to them in volume was northside. Doing a jazz show was definitely the right call for them.
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Post by imakepropsmiracles on Nov 1, 2023 16:29:38 GMT -6
The other part that makes Class D so volatile is that the programs themselves are so affected by typical changes- departure of staff, graduating classes, budgets, recruiting, etc. Forest Park, Springs Valley, and Lewis Cass (Paoli in the past also) are all survived by the incredible legacies their directors left behind*. Every other program has struggled with just staying relevant, sometimes only because the band directors themselves are extremely passionate people- Michael Satterthwaite (Adams Central, ), Terry Burton (Orleans)**, Natasha Edmonton (Tell City), and Robert O. Slattery (Woodlawn). Even Springs Valley is starting to become outwardly affected at this point with Aylsworth leaving not long ago, although the program is still quite healthy from all the community love SV receives. It is so hard to predict because D bands tend to be centered around southern Indiana and the few competitive D bands in the north don't have much of a barometer to compare against, so no one really knows if a north 62 is really a south 75 and vice versa. That's why you tend to see a few random surprises in state finals in D. I find more often as long as the typically strong shows are still advancing, the surprises tend to be well warranted. No one really knows until regionals, and even so, there's a fair argument that semi-state is the only true look at Class D bands face-to-face get before state. Your assessment isn't wrong and I largely agree -- but my issue is the difference in scores and placement from Semis to Finals in the same year. We're moving 6-8 points up and down across those two weeks - it feels like we're getting radically different reads on the groups across those two weeks and I don't see a big difference in performance levels across the two weeks from the same groups. As far as the regularity of groups getting to state - half the field has been fairly consistent for a bit. In the last 17 years we've had: - Forest Park - 17/17 - Springs Valley - 17/17 - Paoli 15/17 - Mater Dei 15/17 (were in class C I believe for '08-'09) - Lewis Cass 11/17 (were in class C for the other 6 seasons - made state every year and won Class C in 2017) - Monrovia 11/17 - Southridge 9/17 (spent some time in C in that span) - Woodlan 9/17 - South Spencer 6/17 - Adams Central 6/17 - Tell City 5/17 - Orleans 5/17
Of course -- in that same time -- we've had the following Champions -- Forest Park (7), Lewis Cass (6), Springs Valley (3), Mater Dei (1) -- Also - 14/17 years have had either Forest Park, Lewis Cass, or Springs Valley as either the Champion or Runner up. Pretty crazy.
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