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Post by rlrrll on Nov 12, 2023 21:04:49 GMT -6
Stupid and intentionally misleading comment. Tarpon Springs is a public high school, just like 95% of the other bands that do BOA. Not a performing arts school. The Tarpon Springs Leadership Conservatory For The Arts is a program within the high school that students can join at will without any audition requirements. Do families move there with the intention of their child attending? Yes. I also personally know of multiple families with musically inclined children who moved to Leander ISD for the same reason. My apologies. It was my impression the majority of students in their program were gifted-in-the-arts students where families seek out being able to send their students who have a natural proclivity for dance or music - as opposed to your regular ol' high school full of kids who might be in marching band, but very awkward, or just your average instrumentalist. If there was such a school in my community, it would pull hundreds of the most talented dancers, musicians, performers and it would blow away the competition if a marching band program was started. It's obvious to anyone that watches them that this is not a marching band but a dance collective that happens to have some people who play an instrument - yet they compete against marching bands. It's silly. And, no, none of this takes anything away from those kids. They're just doing their thing. Organizations like BOA are the ones to blame. Well, I mean someone can correct me f I'm wrong but as I understand it, the Tarpon Springs Leadership Conservatory for The Arts encompasses the entire Pinellas County school system so students from any of the other schools could enroll there if they are a part of the program. It is basically the magnet school for the arts designed to service those who wish to pursue music, dance, jazz, orchestra, etc. for the entire county. Seminole HS within the same district also has successful music and visual arts programs as well as an engineering academy. It's not out of the question that many of the most serious musicians in Pinellas County go to Tarpon Springs. Magnet schools exist all across the country but it certainly has helped build Tarpon Springs into the program they are.
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Post by hostrauser on Nov 12, 2023 21:30:51 GMT -6
From The Tarpon Springs Leadership Conservatory for the Arts website: “Each conservatory student is required to perform in at least two performance ensembles, participate in our annual solo and ensemble festival, complete a senior project, and enroll in a leadership course. The leadership course will focus on problem solving, responsibility, self-directed learning, effective communication, and collaborative teamwork. Every course in music, including our performance courses, provides instruction in creating, performing, listening to and analyzing music, and focuses on music appreciation. There are limited seats into the Leadership Conservatory which are equally divided amongst instrumental, orchestra, dance/color guard and chorus.” does not sound like your average public school curriculum to me… Thank you. To me, it's a complete joke that they compete against - as I mentioned - regular high schools that often allow anyone to march. Tarpon Springs puts on amazing, highly entertaining shows but in no way do any of them ever seem to be marching band shows. The fact that BOA or any organization allows these highly gifted performers to take awards or finalist spots away from marching bands is ridiculous.
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Post by trumpette123 on Nov 12, 2023 21:41:26 GMT -6
From The Tarpon Springs Leadership Conservatory for the Arts website: “Each conservatory student is required to perform in at least two performance ensembles, participate in our annual solo and ensemble festival, complete a senior project, and enroll in a leadership course. The leadership course will focus on problem solving, responsibility, self-directed learning, effective communication, and collaborative teamwork. Every course in music, including our performance courses, provides instruction in creating, performing, listening to and analyzing music, and focuses on music appreciation. There are limited seats into the Leadership Conservatory which are equally divided amongst instrumental, orchestra, dance/color guard and chorus.” does not sound like your average public school curriculum to me… Thank you. To me, it's a complete joke that they compete against - as I mentioned - regular high schools that often allow anyone to march. Tarpon Springs puts on amazing, highly entertaining shows but in no way do any of them ever seem to be marching band shows. The fact that BOA or any organization allows these highly gifted performers to take awards or finalist spots away from marching bands is ridiculous. I really find it interesting that the band we chose to screech about is a band that hasn't medaled at Grand Nationals since 2014, where they won with Man Vs. Machine. Yes, it may be a feeder school for the arts. But if you wanted to be upset about a bands success, maybe you'd look at Carmel, Avon, Hebron, or Vandegrift first. I'd also argue that the show designers these schools have is what makes or brakes them. Insert any of these designers at other schools and you'll see the band succeed in a couple of years. Look at any school that picked up Wes Cartwright in the last couple years and see their growth over the past couple of years. It's unfortunate that every school doesn't have the funding and networking to pick up these designers. Looking at the history of my alumni, Blue Springs, the growth they had is obviously due to Lindsey and Steve Vento. Steve's connection to the Drum Corps world with the Blue Devils and Lindsey's growth as a designer is why that band is where they are today. It's not because they had an influx of amazing musicians popping into their program. This is not drum corps. Students aren't flocking to a school after they make Grand National Finals. These band directors and designers are looking at the students they have and designing shows that they are capable of performing. Although TSOPE gets good musicians through auditions or tuition, it's obviously not that impactful because they aren't medaling every year at Grand Nationals. Look at the middle school programs of Texas music education and you'll probably find a drastic difference than any other spot in the US and realize that's "unfair."
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Post by statechamp1239 on Nov 12, 2023 22:10:52 GMT -6
From The Tarpon Springs Leadership Conservatory for the Arts website: “Each conservatory student is required to perform in at least two performance ensembles, participate in our annual solo and ensemble festival, complete a senior project, and enroll in a leadership course. The leadership course will focus on problem solving, responsibility, self-directed learning, effective communication, and collaborative teamwork. Every course in music, including our performance courses, provides instruction in creating, performing, listening to and analyzing music, and focuses on music appreciation. There are limited seats into the Leadership Conservatory which are equally divided amongst instrumental, orchestra, dance/color guard and chorus.” does not sound like your average public school curriculum to me… Thank you. To me, it's a complete joke that they compete against - as I mentioned - regular high schools that often allow anyone to march. Tarpon Springs puts on amazing, highly entertaining shows but in no way do any of them ever seem to be marching band shows. The fact that BOA or any organization allows these highly gifted performers to take awards or finalist spots away from marching bands is ridiculous. Can you please explain why Tarpon Springs marching band show is different from any HS marching band show. Tarpon Springs marches just like Hebron, they play instrument just like Brownsburg, they have well thought out designed shows just like Broken Arrow, they dance just like Claudia Taylor Johnson, they use props just like Leander, they play entertaining pieces just like The Woodlands, as well limit the number of members just like any "regular" high schools, and they lose competition just like any other band. I don't see why they don't deserve to compete against anyone else. Plus, there are many art-oriented magnet schools out there like Cab Calloway School of the Arts, DE who literally pull talent out of their county for their marching band, and I don't see them winning every competition, and they even placed 23rd in BOA Mid-Atlantic last year. But no one has a problem with them. It just shows you can have amazing talented kids, but you need to have that world class staff, and funding that Tarpon Springs has to pull the kids to train them into producing any amazing and entertaining shows that Tarpon Springs produces.
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Post by statechamp1239 on Nov 13, 2023 2:14:16 GMT -6
It’s really not that complicated. The difference is the students at a conservatory that pulls talent from a large population to train with performance arts at the core of the curriculum is going to have elevated talent. The shows aren’t that different, but the talent level they are working with definitely is. They can accomplish demand that your average marching band cannot. That’s an advantage. I’m certain Wes Cartwright would love to have a chance to design for kids who study dance and performance as part of their daily routine. It’s just facts and I would not be for keepingTarpon from participation, but don’t pretend like they aren’t a little different. My main reason for responding at all is the way a comment was rudely and dismissively called “stupid” when it definitely was not. Famously no marching band kid in those "regular" school take up concert, jazz, or symphonic band or dance class or orchestra or even take private lessons. Clearly majority of these schools offer the same type of curriculum as TS, and many kids take advantage to help elevate their music/dancing skills. Every dance movement is taught by the staff just like everyone else, even TS kids have to learn it too that mean weeks on training the same as everyone, but dancing alone isn't going to help them win a Regional or GN against Avon, Carmel, and Broken Arrow this isn't a dance competition, like I said it's their amazing staff who design these shows and design the music to fit everyone abilities. With your logic Cab Calloway School of the Art MB should be just as powerful as Tarpon Springs since they have an advantage against everyone they compete against.
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Post by philodemus on Nov 13, 2023 6:20:46 GMT -6
I think the notion that Tarpon isn’t “really” a band because they dance well is very dumb, and we all agree at this point, including the person who originally made this dumb argument who has now backpedaled furiously away from it.
As for the, “maybe they aren’t 2A?” part of the argument related to pulling from a larger population… like, I don’t know, that seems much more reasonable.
And, for real, has anyone ever asked them if they would mind terribly moving up to 3 or 4A? I really don’t think they’d care. That’s a program that comes to Indy hoping to win the eagle, not to win 2A.
And then we could drop this inane argument and simply enjoy what is plainly one of the best programs in the country, year in and year out.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 13, 2023 8:09:39 GMT -6
Can you please explain why Tarpon Springs marching band show is different from any HS marching band show. Tarpon Springs marches just like Hebron, they play instrument just like Brownsburg, they have well thought out designed shows just like Broken Arrow, they dance just like Claudia Taylor Johnson, they use props just like Leander, they play entertaining pieces just like The Woodlands, as well limit the number of members just like any "regular" high schools, and they lose competition just like any other band. I don't see why they don't deserve to compete against anyone else. Plus, there are many art-oriented magnet schools out there like Cab Calloway School of the Arts, DE who literally pull talent out of their county for their marching band, and I don't see them winning every competition, and they even placed 23rd in BOA Mid-Atlantic last year. But no one has a problem with them. It just shows you can have amazing talented kids, but you need to have that world class staff, and funding that Tarpon Springs has to pull the kids to train them into producing any amazing and entertaining shows that Tarpon Springs produces. It’s really not that complicated. The difference is the students at a conservatory that pulls talent from a large population to train with performance arts at the core of the curriculum is going to have elevated talent. The shows aren’t that different, but the talent level they are working with definitely is. They can accomplish demand that your average marching band cannot. That’s an advantage. I’m certain Wes Cartwright would love to have a chance to design for kids who study dance and performance as part of their daily routine. It’s just facts and I would not be for keepingTarpon from participation, but don’t pretend like they aren’t a little different. My main reason for responding at all is the way a comment was rudely and dismissively called “stupid” when it definitely was not. If you are going to post misleading accusations about the nature of a high school program and comment that the students do not deserve their achievements, then I am perfectly justified in calling it out. I cannot fathom being so pressed over a high school arts program for no reason other than a record of excellence that perpetuates itself. How do you think those kids feel about what you have said about their program? I’m all for criticizing the decisions of adults, but the success of TSOPE is in no small part due to the hard work of the students, and to imply that they haven’t earned it is far more rude and dismissive than my use of the word “stupid”. Thank you.
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Post by grumpybanddad on Nov 13, 2023 12:57:14 GMT -6
I think the notion that Tarpon isn’t “really” a band because they dance well is very dumb, and we all agree at this point, including the person who originally made this dumb argument who has now backpedaled furiously away from it. As for the, “maybe they aren’t 2A?” part of the argument related to pulling from a larger population… like, I don’t know, that seems much more reasonable. And, for real, has anyone ever asked them if they would mind terribly moving up to 3 or 4A? I really don’t think they’d care. That’s a program that comes to Indy hoping to win the eagle, not to win 2A. And then we could drop this inane argument and simply enjoy what is plainly one of the best programs in the country, year in and year out. In no world can you diminish what TS does, those kids put in alot of work. I do agree with the them being 2A discussion though. It brings up interesting arguments about size and judging. How do you solve this? Not really sure. One thing I've thought of is if they added field judges based on size. You get 1 field judge per every x number of students. More eyes on bigger shows catching more things? Or is bigger just always better? Not sure what the right answer is.
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Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 13, 2023 13:18:34 GMT -6
No amount of trying to manipulate and twist my words changes the fact that Tarpon Leadership Conservatory for the Arts is a magnet school for performing art students who pulls from a county of almost 1 million and has a curriculum that has an emphasis in performing arts day to day. That is an advantage, that is all. Good for them! Just like great designers and affluence are. It doesn’t mean they don’t deserve their successes and what they work very hard for so please stop trying to twist my words. I don’t think any of the students there would disagree with anything I have said or feel diminished by this observation or would feel I’ve been unfair in making it. It is more misleading to say they are like 95% of the average high schools that participate in BOA than anything I have said. Seriously you are incredibly rude and arrogant. Ridiculous. Guys, it’s not like he’s saying Tarpon isn’t good. He’s just saying that tarpon has an advantage that many other bands don’t have by being able to pull students from multiple different districts in a county with a population of a million people. I don’t think he’s being dismissive of their accomplishments, he’s just highlighting the fact that Tarpon has a significantly larger pool of students to pull from. I would love some clarity on what you mean by being able to pull from multiple different districts?
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Post by grumpybanddad on Nov 13, 2023 13:25:01 GMT -6
Guys, it’s not like he’s saying Tarpon isn’t good. He’s just saying that tarpon has an advantage that many other bands don’t have by being able to pull students from multiple different districts in a county with a population of a million people. I don’t think he’s being dismissive of their accomplishments, he’s just highlighting the fact that Tarpon has a significantly larger pool of students to pull from. I would love some clarity on what you mean by being able to pull from multiple different districts? TS pulls from all of pinellas county. 42 school districts in all.
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Post by abtwitch on Nov 13, 2023 13:38:46 GMT -6
I would love some clarity on what you mean by being able to pull from multiple different districts? TS pulls from all of pinellas county. 42 school districts in all. There is only 1 school district in Pinellas County and that is Pinellas County Schools, yes a very large one (17 high schools in total), but I'm really curious where this 42 number came from.
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Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 13, 2023 13:44:48 GMT -6
I would love some clarity on what you mean by being able to pull from multiple different districts? TS pulls from all of pinellas county. 42 school districts in all. I think the word you're looking for is zones? All public high schools in Pinellas are part of Pinellas County Schools. Each of the 17 public high schools in the county pulls from a zone designated based on proximity to the school. Additionally there are charter schools, however that doesn't have any relevance to zoning. Essentially every public high school in the county has one or more “magnet” programs, and those range from IB, to Criminal Justice, to Pinellas County Center for the Arts located at Gibbs High (the primary magnet program for orchestra, musical theater, visual arts, and choir, among others), to the Leadership Conservatory for the Arts. TSLCA is an application based program, and it dives into leadership through arts performance, whether that’s band, color guard/dance, show choir, or music technology. There’s no auditions to get into the program, as I've seen mentioned other places in this thread, and I can promise you that a not small portion of each year’s freshman class wouldn't make it into the top wind ensemble at a good Texas middle school, much less one of the great musical programs at the high school level there. The main point of having the magnet programs, other than adding a little specialization, is to make sure that the kids that want to go to a certain school can have bussing there, considering the district size, as well as help certain school’s enrollment (such as Tarpon, that school would be much smaller without TSLCA, the Cambridge program, the Vet program, and the culinary program). I hope this provides some light on the situation
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Post by abtwitch on Nov 13, 2023 13:59:53 GMT -6
TS pulls from all of pinellas county. 42 school districts in all. TSLCA is an application based program, and it dives into leadership through arts performance, whether that’s band, color guard/dance, show choir, or music technology. There’s no auditions to get into the program, as I've seen mentioned other places in this thread, and I can promise you that a not small portion of each year’s freshman class wouldn't make it into the top wind ensemble at a good Texas middle school, much less one of the great musical programs at the high school level there. Wanna emphasize this part
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Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 13, 2023 14:02:21 GMT -6
TSLCA is an application based program, and it dives into leadership through arts performance, whether that’s band, color guard/dance, show choir, or music technology. There’s no auditions to get into the program, as I've seen mentioned other places in this thread, and I can promise you that a not small portion of each year’s freshman class wouldn't make it into the top wind ensemble at a good Texas middle school, much less one of the great musical programs at the high school level there. Wanna emphasize this part And with my middle school band experience, I’m damn glad they didn't audition 😅
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Post by grumpybanddad on Nov 13, 2023 14:13:12 GMT -6
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Post by cybrunette on Nov 13, 2023 14:17:32 GMT -6
Yup, Tarpon is definitely pulling from;
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Post by radband14 on Nov 13, 2023 14:19:21 GMT -6
I would love some clarity on what you mean by being able to pull from multiple different districts? TS pulls from all of pinellas county. 42 school districts in all. TS is part of the Pinellas County Schools System. There are 17 PUBLIC high schools in Pinellas County, ALL part of the ONE district. Additionally, there are several private schools as well. As part of the PCS System, any student publicly enrolled in a PCS school, can apply (not audition) to become a member of the Leadership Conservatory for the Arts. They can also apply to the Jacobson Culinary Arts Magnet or the Veterinary Magnet at Tarpon. Or they could apply to any of the other many magnet programs offered throughout the county. Fun Fact: There is also the Pinellas County Center for the Arts (PCCA) Magnet at Gibbs High School in St. Petersburg, FL. They have a very strong arts program, but chooses not to focus their efforts in the Marching Band Sector. However, they have top tier orchestra's and concert programs among others. Tarpon is not the only fine arts magnet option to students in the PCS System. Both Seminole and East Lake High Schools have strong Marching Arts programs as well. Seminole having just placed 2nd in a close State Championship in Class 3A and making Finals at BOA Orlando. Northside Christian and Calvary Christian are both private schools in Pinellas County. Northside Christian who just placed 2nd in class 2A State and Calvary who won 1A State. There is no shortage of talent in Pinellas County, and the students have many options to choose from. I do believe there is debate to be had for 2A discussion as TS does pull from a larger population, but that doesn't discredit the amount of work that they do. Along with the incredible work that every band in Pinellas County does.
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Post by yayband914 on Nov 13, 2023 14:27:32 GMT -6
Yup, Tarpon is definitely pulling from; CACKLING.
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Post by cybrunette on Nov 13, 2023 14:29:51 GMT -6
Yup, Tarpon is definitely pulling from; You can’t argue that Tarpon doesn’t have more students to pull from in a school that can take students from a population of 1 million people than a school that can pull out of a population of 25K. I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue here. Go look at the census. Tarpon has waaaaaay more students to pull from. That’s all we’re saying. Well that was clearly a joke. I'm glad I looked this up earlier this year though when I responded to someone about it. Orange County (Orlando) has half a million to a million more to pull from but Dr. Phillips High School (the performing arts magnet school for that district) isn't on the map in the marching world. If what your saying is true then Dr Phillips should have more potential than Tarpon Springs.
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Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 13, 2023 14:41:35 GMT -6
And the number you want to pull is the public high schools, not the charter schools, private schools, alternative Ed programs, or (as mentioned earlier) the juvenile detention centers.
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 13, 2023 14:49:00 GMT -6
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Post by radband14 on Nov 13, 2023 15:02:31 GMT -6
Is it bad that I have already read the rulebook for fun? And I don't even like to read! I'm just a nerd who loves band!
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 13, 2023 15:26:48 GMT -6
The Tarpon Springs discussion has veered far from what is relevant to a thread about 2023 BOA GN Finals. This thread has a purpose, and arguing about TS isn't it. I agree. We had no intention of arguing. We merely pointed out that Tarpon does in fact have significantly more students to pull from, and then other people just started calling us stupid🤣 I don’t think you understand that we are laughing at you, not with you
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 13, 2023 15:27:27 GMT -6
Is it bad that I have already read the rulebook for fun? And I don't even like to read! I'm just a nerd who loves band! This and the WGI adjudication handbook are my Goodnight Moon
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 13, 2023 15:28:26 GMT -6
I don’t even care about the rules That much is obvious
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Post by ilikeguard on Nov 13, 2023 15:39:30 GMT -6
I don’t think you understand that we are laughing at you, not with you No I understand. I’m laughing at the people that are upset for some reason by pointing out population statistics. It wasn’t a big deal. If you call somebody “stupid and misleading” for bringing up points that pertained to what was being discussed, you’re an asshole🤷🏻♂️ I did at least clarify that we weren’t saying that it makes tarpons shows any less good. Just that it doesn’t really make sense to say that what that other guy said was stupid and misleading, because he isn’t wrong in saying that TS has a much bigger population to pull from. They specifically advertise themselves as an arts school. It’s a completely valid point. If I am called an asshole for challenging misinformation and for defending the integrity and accomplishments of high schoolers then I am clearly doing something right. The intentional misrepresentation of facts is not “bringing up points that pertained to what was being discussed”. It was a weak tactic in order to justify bitterness towards children.
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Post by saturdaynightlights on Nov 13, 2023 16:17:02 GMT -6
Y’all wanna know the fun part in all this? Without the magnet programs at the school, Tarpon would be an A band. And they’d still make Grand Nats finals consistently.
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band05
Senior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by band05 on Nov 13, 2023 16:20:42 GMT -6
Some of y’all’s responses are SENDING ME 😭😭
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Post by grumpybanddad on Nov 13, 2023 16:20:52 GMT -6
If I am called an asshole for challenging misinformation and for defending the integrity and accomplishments of high schoolers then I am clearly doing something right. The intentional misrepresentation of facts is not “bringing up points that pertained to what was being discussed”. It was a weak tactic in order to justify bitterness towards children. How is saying that Tarpon springs has significantly more students to pull from intentionally misrepresenting facts? Is 1 million less than 25K? Justifying bitterness towards children? Talk about jumping to conclusions. I don’t think he even said anything critical of TS. Lmao all he said was that they do have a lot more people in the pool of students eligible to attend. That is factual. Are we done now? There isn’t anything to debate even. You guys just started ripping on somebody for contributing to the discussion in a way that wasn’t attacking or disrespectful towards anyone. I thought it was harsh. You're good, your point is solid. I've never heard anyone knock TS's performances or the kids. Only point I've seen brought up is maybe they should be 4A. Time to move on. Good day.
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Post by boahistorybuff on Nov 13, 2023 16:28:19 GMT -6
To lighten the mood here, can I just say I love the username grumpybanddad. Awesome.
Since I have now entered my 50s, maybe I should change my username to grumpyoldboahistorian. My moto could be I know history because I lived it. I could start all my history posts with the phrase Back in My Day...
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